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Hydrogen energy => Electrolysis of H20 and Hydrogen on demand generation => Topic started by: bubblemonkey2 on February 23, 2008, 07:17:31 AM
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Im wondering is there a difference in production in HHO generators when the Postiive plates/wires are further apart from the negative plates/wires vs closer together?
I notice a lot of cells use tubes which are VERY close in proximity.. yet when I saw Aarons Wire "fin" design he was getting good production with a wire fin placed several inches away from the two postive plates?
Just curious about this any feedback welcome!
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During the simple electrolysis ions are moving the charge from the electrodes around.The closer the electrodes the faster ions can travel between them (shorter way) the more amps you can feed in your cell.But i feel it would be a problem with too close electrodes(less than 1-2 mm distance).On every electrode you get gas bubbles , if the space is small enough almost all of the space between the electrodes will have contact only with gaseous bubbles and not with water.Bubbles like to stick between small objects(water surface tension? ).It means no ions there and no current.So your electrodes will have small effective area of contact with water and cell would produce less.
At my cell i used two SS sponges(the one u scrub your dirty dishes/grill when washing them) and high amount of KOH as electrolite.Electrodes have a big surface area,yet the amp are very low around 4-5 A with 12 V.I expected 30A or more.I guess the problem is with the sponge that is is "holding" a big amount of produced gas inside and that is reducing the effective surface area.I guess the high surface tension of water is to be blamed,maybe adding of some additives can help.As for now i am building another cell with SS balls as electrodes we will see what will be the difference.
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Most people designing cells like to keep their electrodes between 1/8" (1.6MM) - 1/4" (6.35MM) apart to allow for the flow of bubbles off of the surface of the electrodes and electrolyte to replace the bubbles and allow for easy flow of voltage and current across the plates of the electrodes. I would recommend you watch ZeroFossilFuel's videos http://www.youtube.com/zerofossilfuel (http://www.youtube.com/zerofossilfuel) or Sidyoung's videos http://www.youtube.com/sidyoung (http://www.youtube.com/sidyoung) on Youtube, if you want more info, especially their earlier videos. Another good bunch of videos to watch are by John Aaron http://www.youtube.com/johnaarons (http://www.youtube.com/johnaarons).There are a multitude of videos that have some kind of reference to the distance between the plates posted on youtube, all you do is have to search for them.
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you typically will draw more current when your closer together too... but i like being close in my cells....
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you typically will draw more current when your closer together too... but i like being close in my cells....
True, True, it does draw more current (amperage) when the plates are close together. If the cells were farther apart it would also draw a large current to push the ions across the electrolyte, because the current would have to travel farther to get to the negative from the positive plate. It would possibly cause a lot more heating of the cell by a larger current flow heating the electrolyte. The most difficult part of building a hydrogen generator is trying to find that sweet spot, the right distance between the plates and drawing the least amount of current and causing the least amount of heating of the electrolyte in the cell.
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its like smoking bud while drinking.... you gotta have the perfect balance or youll be on your ass quick!
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Don't worry about amperage and bubble blockage, The closer the gap, the better. 1mm or even a little smaller seems to work great. If and when the bubbles become a problem, the best solution would be to flow the water through the cell.
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i agree. cheers
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If you look at my cell design in one of my earlier posts, you will see that is what I had designed into my cell. But plate separation distances are important too.
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I'm new here, brought in by all the internet sites, vids and posts I've been reading about splitting water. I'm wanting to get into building a cell to eventually run or help in running my motorbike but can't seem to get an idea about how stuff is supposed to work as far as the whole pulsing bit goes, I can get simply putting power on it straight from a battery or low voltage high amp power supply. Yet still..
I had a thought today coming home and decided to put it into my 3d modeling program to get better help with it. It's a tubular design like I've been seeing just with a whole bunch of them of small diameter pipe. The cell is going to be a tiny thing, bout 6" round and not much higher than that to fit on the bike someplace. I'm going to try introducing a flow of water through the cell from the bottom to come up between the space between the tubes using a water pump from a computer water cooling setup. Thinking of using 1/4" and 3/8" 304L or 316 stainless for the metals as indicated. Suppose it'll work or fail for that matter?
I've got it posted on Burgmanusa.com but figured I'd ask here too...
http://burgmanusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=282025#p282025 (http://burgmanusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=282025#p282025)
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@techartguy
i have seen your drawings and i want to say that i appreciate your idea with introducing a water flow from the bottom of the cell and the bubbler on top. This way you will create a vertical flow which will carries the hydroxy gas to your outlet .
as far as i know (and please if it is someone which has other opinions , please correct me)
1 ) the best material you can use is 316L chemical formula Fe, <0.03% C, 16-18.5% Cr, 10-14% Ni, 2-3% Mo, <2% Mn, <1% Si, <0.045% P, <0.03% S
Grade 316L, the low carbon version of 316 and is immune from sensitisation (grain boundary carbide precipitation). Thus it is extensively used in heavy gauge welded components (over about 6mm). There is commonly no appreciable price difference between 316 and 316L stainless steel.
more info here : http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=2382
2 ) as close as you have the cathode to the anode or to the neutrals as greater chance to have a better production.( i am using 1,2 mm spacings because i couldn't put them close more than that cause they aren't cut perfectly :(
from my tests i discover that if you don't have any neutral plates and your voltage in a cell is 2 V (because according to some theories the cell stops increasing the production after you reach 1,24 volts across the electrolyte , so let's say that you put 2 volts because you will have a small voltage
drop due to the material from which the electrodes are made even if they are 316L) you have to put more electrolite (i use KOH) to increase the conductivity. if you will see this formula you will see why are important the spacings
C = (E * A) / d
where
C = capacity
E = permittivity of dielectric
A = area of plates
d = distance betwin the plates
so if you increase the distance betwin the plates you will have to increase the area of your plates or the electrolyte (the last one is easier) in order to have the same capacity of your cell and the same production.
please do it if you need to correct me.
PS one question 4 you : how you will connect all the pipes ?
Go Green !
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Thank you for the very information response, hopefully I can get started now with what you've provided. I'm going to go with the second drawing for the electrode sets with the many smaller tubes. I'm going to get a small circular plate (or make one) of the 316L stainless and drill holes in it to slide the outer tubes through. Don't know if spot welding them in place will have an effect on the corrosion resistance otherwise that's how they'll be attached. I'll then put either 4 rods through the plate up to a set of brackets at the top for both support and power distribution, or, just stick a lug on the common plate and run a stainless wire up to the top somewhere. As for the inner tubes, I'll put the spacers in to keep it all separated and I'll spot weld some small lugs on the bottom of each where they stick out of the cell and make my connections there, that's alot of wiring on the thing given each anode will have to be connected. My guess is set of terminal blocks will be good for this as far as organization goes. Though I think I'm going to move the bubbler off the top and increase it's length but keep the same configuration since the flow from the water being pumped in will push the gas/water mix out the top and into the bubbler, just going to need a hose or metal tube for the connection.
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Just as another thought in regards to keeping the space in between a little more bubble free, don't suppose using ultrasonics either in the volume of water in the cell or connecting elements to the anodes themselves would do anything?
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yeah right,
so as far as i understand you intend to connect all the outer tubes to one circular plate and extend the inner tubes outside the container , right ?
1) outside that will be very good because you reduce the chance to have a current flow betwin the positive and negative but you have to think how you gonna do it and still have a sealed and pressure resistant container (an idea might be welding an and to the inner tube an do a thread or put a nut inside)
2 ) you have to think about fixing the inner tubes as well as fixing the outer tubes so they can't change their position (i mean not to lean on spacers) you can see here with what problem ZeroFossilFuel had http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ci5OlPlJ68
3) as far as i understand you will have one big connection on outer tubes and many (as many as tubes you have) inner connections ......Question are you gonna connect all your cells in parallel and supply 12V(that you bike does)? - in this case you will build a water heater and it will do same thing that your kettle does or are you gonna supply 2 volts to the hole system (that means building or buying a DC to DC transformer to convert from 12v to2v (additional expenses)....i think that the best think you can do before assembly your generator is to test one of these cells (inner and outer tube) and set up in different range of tensions (volts) and electrolite and you will find out when you have best results and which is the current input (amperes) . you can multiply then with your number of cells and find out an estimated current consumption - you will need to know which is the max current you can draw from your motorbike because you are limited to what the dynamo that you have on bike (sort of alternator) can produce and the battery which there are in a range of 3-30 Ah not more. in my opinion the best way to connect 6 or 7 cells in series (depends on what is your constant tension when engine idling.)
4 ) you said about making the cell taller by removing the bubbler - in my opinion is an good idea because I've notice that the taller that is the generator the quicker that bubbles are going to the surface and brake the others that try to build op on plates(in my case) .
have fun and best luck with your project
and don't forget Go Green !
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Your drawing looks very similar to a fellow testers device named H2OPOWER on this forum. Here is a video of one of his setups. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJPE6d2R9uo
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Yep, gonna extend the tubes outside the container so I'll go on your advice about using the threaded nuts and or a compression fitting, maybe something like the overflow bulkheads I have on my aquariums, just very small. The outer tubes will be the easier ones to keep in place, the inner will pose issues, hopefully the way they get secured and sealed in the bottom will keep them still enough. I was thinking about using a dc-dc power supply to step down the voltage to at least 3.3v ( the lowest I've found pre-made ) but only has a max rated of 8 amps. Draw is certainly going to be an issue, the batt I have on the bike is a 9 Ah, with the gen being 400W at 5k rpm. Though I converted all the bulbs to led based ones and a pair of hid ballast/bulbs for my headlights. Doing that shaved off 145.7 watts off the stock filament bulb setup so I have a little more breathing room, but not much compared to a car or any other vehicle with a larger supply. So 12.25 amps at 12v or 44.15 amps at 3.3? Either way it seems like alot of draw even if I'm just filling in the gap with something else. I was going to make the bubbler part taller but not so much the cell part. I watched a video on youtube with someone dissipating the finer bubbles floating around in the cell into larger ones that rose to the surface using a pond fogger, http://youtube.com/watch?v=6hVRmVtiprc. I see the owner of this site made a comment about it too on the same vid, haven't looked for the thread or post on it here yet. I have a very small fogger unit I salvaged from one of those frosted table decoration things that change colors. At any rate a good bit of toying around on the bench per your suggestions is needed.
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Your drawing looks very similar to a fellow testers device named H2OPOWER on this forum. Here is a video of one of his setups. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJPE6d2R9uo
Oh cool, I hadn't seen that one yet. I'll have to look him up on here. Thanks for the link :)
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I watched a video on youtube with someone dissipating the finer bubbles floating around in the cell into larger ones that rose to the surface using a pond fogger, http://youtube.com/watch?v=6hVRmVtiprc. I see the owner of this site made a comment about it too on the same vid, haven't looked for the thread or post on it here yet. I have a very small fogger unit I salvaged from one of those frosted table decoration things that change colors. At any rate a good bit of toying around on the bench per your suggestions is needed.
very interesting approach from sirHoax i haven't seen that video . i don't exactly know how the ultrasonic fogger does and how it works. i think what it does is sending a small current but with a specific frequency and practical vibrates the water molecules. But also vibrates the plates (which might be good) i will try to find out if it improves the production or not . i tried with an underwater pump to create a flow that can carry out the bubbles to the surface but it was the same production.
GoGreen !
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A fogger like that one works by sending a voltage through a piezo element which causes the element to vibrate at a particular frequency thus creating vibrations in the water.
Here's a small excerpt from wikipedia about how a humidifier using an element works, pretty much the same way about pond foggers just with a fan:
"The ultrasonic humidifier, one type of nebulizer (a device that creates a very fine spray), is a popular type of humidifier. It works by vibrating a metal plate at ultrasonic frequencies to nebulize (sometimes incorrectly called "atomize") the water. Because the water is not heated for evaporation, it produces a cool mist. The ultrasonic pressure waves nebulize not only the water but also materials in the water including calcium, other minerals, viruses, fungi, bacteria[21], and other impurities. Illness caused by impurities that reside in a humidifier's reservoir fall under the heading of "Humidifier Fever".
I'll take mine apart to see if that's the case on how it's creating the mist..
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Mr. Green,
You made an observation that is interesting. Although you where flowing water through your cell you did not see an increase in bubbles/gas. I am curious as to what you concluded as to why that is. Are you having any problems with bubbles sticking to the electrodes? Have you tried increasing the voltage to 120V or so to see if bubbles would hinder gas production? It's great the way you tested to see how flow effects the cell. Thanx for your info!
I think this thread has created a problem that doesn't exist. The closer the electrodes the better. Do not worry about bubbles and if they might cause less gas. I have never had that problem and I can get them damn close. The problem is heating and amperage. If you can lower either one successfully, you have a winner.
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Hy HeairBear,
yes , i created a water flow in my cell but i didn't see any real changes in my production. Unfortunately i didn't recorded the test but i will try to replicate it and put it on youtube. I think that bubbles sticking to the electrodes is just an optical illusion because a gas much more lighter than air can't stay underwater for long, altrough i could see some bubbles sticked to the electrodes but on the outer side (which doesn't take part in the electrolysis) .
No i didn't try to increase voltage more than 21 V (because i don't have a bigger power supply) and it was limited somehere around 3 - 4 A
Heathing problem ... i think that if lowering the voltage you will have less heat but amperage can go up.
if you can use a variable power supply why don't you take a single cell with just an andode and a cathode (with let's say 1mm spacing ) and record the production and the current consumption starting from the lowest volts you can deliver and increase at max and see if the production stop increasing and at what level. After you have some results you can do several tests ex:
1 ) increasing and decreasing the gap betwin plates
2 ) put in series or add some neutral plates betwin the poz and neg plates.
3 ) try keeping the best voltage where you have max production and increase the consumption by increasing the concentration of the electrolite.
Do not forget to share the results with us.
Good luck
Go Green !
@ TechArtGuy
thanks for information and the same think , Do not forget to share the results with us.
the ultrasonic frequency is an amazing idea and it worths to be tried.
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Yes of course. I have some 304 (316 was to pricey for minimum length) stainless being shipped for a small test cell to start with, should arrive next week along with my water pump. Just have to see now...
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it doesent really matter if it is 304 , 304L , 316 or 316L in the experimental stage.
you can check here which is the diffenece betwin these grades..
http://www.aalco.co.uk/literature/pdfs/Aalco_Materials.pdf
good luck
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Oh, I see.... My bad.
My research in electrolysis has been in the works for some time now. I started here at overunity.com over a year ago but my endeavors go far beyond that. One thing is for certain, no matter how you design a cell or vary the voltage, electrolysis of any type of water will not be much more efficient than Faraday's findings. Gas production is related to current consumption. The more current consumed, the more heat and gas produced. The more voltage used, the more current consumed and the temperature rises much faster. It's a catch22. I went on to replicate Dave Lawton's setup with success. I did not get much more gas and current was really low. However after long runs the water did heat up. Currently I am researching the Avramenko plug for a possible tool to help keep current to a minimum without a huge voltage drop. Stiffler has a video on youtube that I am trying to replicate which I have been unable to so far. I'll hollar real loud when I crack the code. I promise.
If you think your gonna make a successful hydro-booster or water splitter or what ever you call it without learning some electronics, physics, chemistry, history, and especially how an automobile works, you wont get to far. We have tried that already... Even though the solution may be super simple, it's not simple until you have the knowledge and knowing you have it.
Good luck guys.
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Yes, It's becoming real evident that there is going to be alot of learning and broadening of skill sets for a project like this. I'll have to see how introducing a flow of water between the tubes in my own cell trials sometime next week or so affects it. If anything I'll put the return line through a small computer radiator w/fan to dissipate heat out of the cell if it presents an issue to the plastic housing's structural integrity. Thanks for the vote of confidence ;D
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I apologize for my harsh words. It was my intent to inform anyone trying to make any device to increase fuel economy for an automobile. Many of the questions and solutions mentioned in this thread have already been tested and documented not only in this forum but many others. It takes a bit of effort to sift through it all, but it's there.
At first glance we can see two problems. One being how to make hydrogen efficiently and two, how to use it with our current automobiles. Let's assume we have made a super efficient cell and we need to incorporate into our car which is more than likely governed by a computer and sensors. If by chance your vehicle is older and not computerized, your journey will be much easier and less costly.
It is possible to to modify our cars to get 75-100 MPG with out even using a water fuel cell by leaning out the fuel ratio and vaporizing the fuel. Some of the problems we run into here is less power and heating issues causing the head/s to warp. This can be alleviated by water injection of some sort for cooling and added power. But now we have a new set of problems and we have to design and build another device to make it work. Do you see where I'm going with this? What problems will we encounter when we add the cell? Timing, pre-ignition of hydrogen in the intake manifold from heat, tricking a computer to do what you want?
Making Hydroxyl from water efficiently is still an issue to this day but luckily we have hope from certain people such as Stan Meyer, Daniel Dingle, Bob Boyce, and Andrija Puharich. To begin to understand them we have to understand their language which is quite technical and misleading. But, when we compare their circuits to other cheap energy type circuits like Bedini, Tesla, and others, we begin to see the similarities and gain a better understanding of how these devices work.
I will never advise any of you to not test something you want to test, I will only tell you my experiences in hopes of helping you and possibly save you a lot of money and time. I suggest building any cell you can cheaply make and hooking it up to any power you can find. A battery, computer power supply, or maybe a modified alternator will work fine. Sooner or later you going to need a signal generator or Lawton circuit. Brute force electrolysis just heats up to fast. Unfortunately, even adding a cooling radiator system will only help out so much. The radiator keeps the water from boiling but the heat produced is wasted energy you are paying for to put in.
I am curious though, what are your goals? to save at the gas pump? That was my original goal, but I soon realized it was becoming an expensive hobby. I guess it will stay a hobby till one of us comes forward with a documented working model. And once you do have one, how hard will it be for you to just give it away without any monetary compensation for you hard work. It's hard to say no to a million dollars or more staring you in the face.
Once again I want to say I'm sorry if I offend any one for using poor judgment of my chosen words. I need to learn how to write better. Have a great day!
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HeairBear my friend ,
you did write a lot and i am struggling to replay to all your doubts ....
1) my goal is to double the mileage - after that point, when your car is running more than 50 % on hydroxy gas you have to think about waste spark and delay the spark with 16 degrees ( 6 degrees after TDC point)
2) yes we can foul the computer , why not ? is electronics , electronics work like the way that we want to work (they are just some values which can be tuned)
3) i think that it is a noble to have such a hobby. All you need to put in are your knowledges and few money. You don't need to go to far in investing money , knowledges and the power to try over and over again are more important. Do not quit , just stop investing money and start investing in knowledges which are here and free of any charge.
Do you know the story about Thomas Edison ? After he was beaten by Graham Bell in the telegraph chase he tried to develop the incandescent electric light bulb after he tried thousants of filaments a journalist came to him for an interview and he ironically asked him if he still gonna try to light a bulb after so many failures . You know what he did replay ? he said : yes you are wright , i had done many tries to light the bulb but their are not faillures , i did discover this way thousants of way in which the light bulb doesn't work.
After he managed to light the bulb the same journalist came to him and he did asked him : Now that you managed to light the bulb what you gonna do with it ? (think that in 1879 there wasn't any electricity) He did ignore the journalist and his limited way of thinking and soon he did come with his grate achievement , what he called "his first model of a complete central power station " So this was the greatest invention , the miracle of millennium. Think about how many people are taking advantage of his invention now ....
so yeah, "Be brave as your fathers before you. Have faith and go forward" Thomas Alva Edison"
PS : If i will not touch my goal i will be pleased with all my knowledges gained in phisics , chemistry , mechanics, history , language and many many other...
good luck to everybody and THINK OUTSITDE THE BOX
sincerely yours ,
Mr.Green