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Author Topic: Distance between postive and negative in cells  (Read 11459 times)

Offline bubblemonkey2

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Distance between postive and negative in cells
« on: February 23, 2008, 07:17:31 AM »
Im wondering is there a difference in production in HHO generators when the Postiive plates/wires are further apart from the negative plates/wires vs closer together?

I notice a lot of cells use tubes which are VERY close in proximity.. yet when I saw Aarons Wire "fin" design he was getting good production with a wire fin placed several inches away from the two postive plates? 

Just curious about this any feedback welcome!

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Offline Creativity

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Re: Distance between postive and negative in cells
« Reply #1 on: April 15, 2008, 03:43:38 PM »
During the simple electrolysis ions are moving the charge from the electrodes around.The closer the electrodes the faster ions can travel between them (shorter way) the more amps you can feed in your cell.But i feel it would be a problem with too close electrodes(less than 1-2 mm distance).On every electrode you get gas bubbles , if the space is small enough almost all of the space between the electrodes will have contact only with gaseous bubbles and not with water.Bubbles like to stick between small objects(water surface tension? ).It means no ions there and no current.So your electrodes will have small effective area of contact with water and cell would produce less.
At my cell i used two SS sponges(the one u scrub your dirty dishes/grill when washing them) and high amount of KOH as electrolite.Electrodes have a big surface area,yet the amp are very low around 4-5 A with 12 V.I expected 30A or more.I guess the problem is with the sponge that is is "holding" a big amount of produced gas inside and that is reducing the effective surface area.I guess the high surface tension of water is to be blamed,maybe adding of some additives can help.As for now i am building another cell with SS balls as electrodes we will see what will be the difference.

Offline Draco Rylos

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Re: Distance between postive and negative in cells
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2008, 10:37:48 PM »
Most people designing cells like to keep their electrodes between 1/8" (1.6MM) - 1/4" (6.35MM) apart to allow for the flow of bubbles off of the surface of the electrodes and electrolyte to replace the bubbles and allow for easy flow of voltage and current across the plates of the electrodes. I would recommend you watch ZeroFossilFuel's videos http://www.youtube.com/zerofossilfuel or Sidyoung's videos http://www.youtube.com/sidyoung on Youtube, if you want more info, especially their earlier videos. Another good bunch of videos to watch are by John Aaron http://www.youtube.com/johnaarons.There are a multitude of videos that have some kind of reference to the distance between the plates posted on youtube, all you do is have to search for them.

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Re: Distance between postive and negative in cells
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2008, 10:37:48 PM »
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Offline vdubdipr

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Re: Distance between postive and negative in cells
« Reply #3 on: April 29, 2008, 04:13:47 AM »
you typically will draw more current when your closer together too... but i like being close in my cells....

Offline Draco Rylos

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Re: Distance between postive and negative in cells
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2008, 04:20:36 AM »
you typically will draw more current when your closer together too... but i like being close in my cells....

True, True, it does draw more current (amperage) when the plates are close together. If the cells were farther apart it would also draw a large current to push the ions across the electrolyte, because the current would have to travel farther to get to the negative from the positive plate. It would possibly cause a lot more heating of the cell by a larger current flow heating the electrolyte. The most difficult part of building a hydrogen generator is trying to find that sweet spot, the right distance between the plates and drawing the least amount of current and causing the least amount of heating of the electrolyte in the cell.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Distance between postive and negative in cells
« Reply #4 on: April 29, 2008, 04:20:36 AM »
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Offline vdubdipr

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Re: Distance between postive and negative in cells
« Reply #5 on: April 29, 2008, 07:49:15 AM »
its like smoking bud while drinking.... you gotta have the perfect balance or youll be on your ass quick!

Offline HeairBear

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Re: Distance between postive and negative in cells
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2008, 03:37:01 AM »
Don't worry about amperage and bubble blockage, The closer the gap, the better. 1mm or even a little smaller seems to work great. If and when the bubbles become a problem, the best solution would be to flow the water through the cell.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Distance between postive and negative in cells
« Reply #6 on: April 30, 2008, 03:37:01 AM »
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Offline vdubdipr

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Re: Distance between postive and negative in cells
« Reply #7 on: April 30, 2008, 09:41:37 AM »
i agree. cheers

Offline Draco Rylos

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Re: Distance between postive and negative in cells
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2008, 12:52:35 AM »
If you look at my cell design in one of my earlier posts, you will see that is what I had designed into my cell. But plate separation distances are important too.

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Re: Distance between postive and negative in cells
« Reply #8 on: May 01, 2008, 12:52:35 AM »
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Offline techartguy

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Re: Distance between postive and negative in cells
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2008, 06:45:03 AM »
I'm new here, brought in by all the internet sites, vids and posts I've been reading about splitting water. I'm wanting to get into building a cell to eventually run or help in running my motorbike but can't seem to get an idea about how stuff is supposed to work as far as the whole pulsing bit goes, I can get simply putting power on it straight from a battery or low voltage high amp power supply. Yet still..

I had a thought today coming home and decided to put it into my 3d modeling program to get better help with it. It's a tubular design like I've been seeing just with a whole bunch of them of small diameter pipe. The cell is going to be a tiny thing, bout 6" round and not much higher than that to fit on the bike someplace. I'm going to try introducing a flow of water through the cell from the bottom to come up between the space between the tubes using a water pump from a computer water cooling setup. Thinking of using 1/4" and 3/8" 304L or 316 stainless for the metals as indicated. Suppose it'll work or fail for that matter?

I've got it posted on Burgmanusa.com but figured I'd ask here too...

http://burgmanusa.com/forums/viewtopic.php?p=282025#p282025

Offline Mr Green

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Re: Distance between postive and negative in cells
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2008, 07:10:20 PM »
@techartguy

i have seen your drawings and i want to say that i appreciate your idea with introducing a water flow from the bottom of the cell and the bubbler on top. This way you will create a vertical flow which will carries the hydroxy gas to your outlet .

as far as i know (and please if it is someone which has other opinions , please correct me)

1 ) the best material you can use is 316L chemical formula Fe, <0.03% C, 16-18.5% Cr, 10-14% Ni, 2-3% Mo, <2% Mn, <1% Si, <0.045% P, <0.03% S
Grade 316L, the low carbon version of 316 and is immune from sensitisation (grain boundary carbide precipitation). Thus it is extensively used in heavy gauge welded components (over about 6mm). There is commonly no appreciable price difference between 316 and 316L stainless steel.

more info here :  http://www.azom.com/details.asp?ArticleID=2382

2 ) as close as you have the cathode to the anode or to the neutrals as greater chance to have a better production.( i am using 1,2 mm spacings because i couldn't put them close more than that cause they aren't cut perfectly :(
 from my tests i discover that if you don't have any neutral plates and your voltage in a cell is 2 V (because according to some theories the cell stops increasing the production after you reach 1,24 volts across the electrolyte , so let's say that you put 2 volts because you will have a small voltage
drop due to the material from which the electrodes are made even if they are 316L) you have to put more electrolite (i use KOH) to increase the conductivity. if you will see this formula you will see why are important the spacings

C = (E * A) / d

where
C = capacity
E = permittivity of dielectric
A = area of plates
d = distance betwin the plates

so if you increase the distance betwin the plates you will have to increase the area of your plates or the electrolyte (the last one is easier) in order to have the same capacity of your cell and the same production.

please do it if you need to correct me.

PS one question 4 you : how you will connect all the pipes ?

Go Green !


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Distance between postive and negative in cells
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2008, 07:10:20 PM »
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Offline techartguy

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Re: Distance between postive and negative in cells
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2008, 09:13:52 PM »
Thank you for the very information response, hopefully I can get started now with what you've provided. I'm going to go with the second drawing for the electrode sets with the many smaller tubes. I'm going to get a small circular plate (or make one)  of the 316L stainless and drill holes in it to slide the outer tubes through. Don't know if spot welding them in place will have an effect on the corrosion resistance otherwise that's how they'll be attached. I'll then put either 4 rods through the plate up to a set of brackets at the top for both support and power distribution, or, just stick a lug on the common plate and run a stainless wire up to the top somewhere. As for the inner tubes, I'll put the spacers in to keep it all separated and  I'll spot weld some small lugs on the bottom of each where they stick out of the cell and make my connections there, that's alot of wiring on the thing given each anode will have to be connected. My guess is set of terminal blocks will be good for this as far as organization goes. Though I think I'm going to move the bubbler off the top and increase it's length but keep the same configuration since the flow from the water being pumped in will push the gas/water mix out the top and into the bubbler, just going to need a hose or metal tube for the connection.

Offline techartguy

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Re: Distance between postive and negative in cells
« Reply #12 on: May 14, 2008, 11:32:58 PM »
Just as another thought in regards to keeping the space in between a little more bubble free, don't suppose using ultrasonics either in the volume of water in the cell or connecting elements to the anodes themselves would do anything?

Offline Mr Green

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Re: Distance between postive and negative in cells
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2008, 01:42:24 AM »

yeah right,

so as far as i understand you intend to connect all the outer tubes to one circular plate and extend the inner tubes outside the container , right ?

1) outside that will be very good because you reduce the chance to have a current flow betwin the positive and negative but you have to think how you gonna do it and still have a sealed and pressure resistant container (an idea might be welding an and to the inner tube an do a thread or put a nut inside)
2 ) you have to think about fixing the inner tubes as well as fixing the outer tubes  so they can't change their position (i mean not to lean on spacers) you can see here with what problem ZeroFossilFuel had     http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Ci5OlPlJ68
3) as far as i understand you will have one big connection on outer tubes and many (as many as tubes you have) inner connections ......Question are you gonna connect all your cells in parallel and supply 12V(that you bike does)? - in this case you will build a water heater and it will do same thing that your kettle does or are you gonna supply 2 volts to the hole system (that means building or buying a DC to DC transformer to convert from 12v to2v (additional expenses)....i think that the best think you can do before assembly your generator is to test one of these cells (inner and outer tube) and set up in different range of tensions (volts) and electrolite and you will find out when you have best results and which is the current input (amperes) . you can multiply then with your number of cells and find out an estimated current consumption - you will need to know which is the max current you can draw from your motorbike because you are limited to what the dynamo that you have on bike (sort of alternator) can produce and the battery which there are in a range of 3-30 Ah not more. in my opinion the best way to connect 6 or 7 cells in series (depends on what is your constant tension when engine idling.)
4 ) you said about making the cell taller by removing the bubbler - in my opinion is an good idea because I've notice that the taller that is the generator the quicker that bubbles are going to the surface and brake the others that try to build op on plates(in my case) .

have fun and best luck with your project

and don't forget  Go Green !


Offline HeairBear

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Re: Distance between postive and negative in cells
« Reply #14 on: May 15, 2008, 04:37:55 AM »
Your drawing looks very similar to a fellow testers device named H2OPOWER on this forum. Here is a video of one of his setups. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJPE6d2R9uo


 

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