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Author Topic: Tri-Force Magnets - Finally shown to be OU?  (Read 288496 times)

futuristic

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Re: Tri-Force Magnets - Finally shown to be not OU?
« Reply #60 on: February 24, 2008, 05:30:58 PM »
Magnets are 6x6x6 mm.
(http://www4.slikomat.com/08/0224/m9o-IMG-09.jpg)

I agree that starting energy is considerable, but magnet still swings higher with trigate rail than without it. And this is important.

Omnibus

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Re: Tri-Force Magnets - Finally shown to be not OU?
« Reply #61 on: February 24, 2008, 05:52:11 PM »
Hi guys.

My latest experiment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MCW6T7oKq2c

Quite successful I think. ;)

Frenky

This experiment proves nothing of importance. The conditions with and without the stations are different and therefore, obviously, the behavior of the pendulum differs. That's trivial.

Omnibus

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Re: Tri-Force Magnets - Finally shown to be not OU?
« Reply #62 on: February 24, 2008, 05:58:00 PM »
The important thing to prove is that when exiting the stations the piece can smoothly (won't need to fall from a height as in SMOT) start rolling down a slope leading to the entrance of the stations and that the gained height at the exit will provide enough energy to overcome the repulsion at the entrance. If that occurs we're there. That's the only hope with this device. Like I said, I'm not optimistic regarding its horizontal variant but I may be proven wrong.

sm0ky2

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Re: Tri-Force Magnets - Finally shown to be not OU?
« Reply #63 on: February 24, 2008, 09:31:25 PM »
using 1-6 gates the repulsion zone is from about 1" to 3.5 inches. give or take, the stength of the gates, closeness, connecting bars, and several other misc. factors.

Also, remember that the strength of the repulsion field decreases exponentially with distance.
so there theres a "maximum" repulsion force at a certain distance, after you enter the weak end of the field traveling towards the gates.

once youu pass this max, the field diminishes to 0, before the attraction field starts.
they key is to have enough momentum to pass trough the max repulsion zone, through the dead-zone, and into the atraction zone.

you cannot do this more than 1-2 times from the repulsion at the gate exist alone.
we must accummulate energy during the track-distance, and then transfer that energy into te roller to give it enough power to re-enter the gate.

Normally i would agree with the critics on this point - that it is not possible.
However - with the Tri-Force, i notice that the attraction zone, amplifies the energy of the roller, regardless of the energy input or taken out of the system at the entrance/exit.
Hence - we get a gain.
 I am not sure if this is actually to be considered "overunity".
 Energy in , IS greater than Energy out -  however the experiment is consistent with the math.
the gate distance, is essentially a variable independent of the energy in/out.

example:
IF you had a Tri-Force array of x number of gates. that equated to a 1T field strength.
meaning 1 Tesla of repulsion force at both ends.

the roller would accumulate an additional 1/2 Tesla, during its travel, 1/4th of which is consumed in between the pairs of gates, such that the roller exits with approx. = 1.25T

This is a 25% gain over the energy input into the system, no doubt.  This is caused by the linear distortion of the magnetic field -  essentially we have the magnetic equivalent of two Bar Magnets facing opposite directions, but parallel to one another.

this creates a linear action on the roller - THROUGH the space between the magnets
With the Tri-Force, the forces poles in the end amplify this field - but it is essentially the same.

This principle was demonstrated by Howard Johnson as far back as 1938 in his "linear motor"
May he rest in peace. (Jan 2. 2008)
Here's a YouTube demonstration.

http://youtube.com/watch?v=o6F9I5OiSTE

@ OMNI --------------

            <---  Insert SMOT here.


the advantage given by the Tri-Force is that is gives a "power boost" by reinforcing the gate with opposing, fields behind it.

and apparently we can change that angle by making "not-so triangles".

im working on a rotating thingy, but my "larger" balls are too big, and make a tiny circle (7")
 with the roller.
and i cant' do much with that size.......

triyng to find a "medium sized" ball to do what Clanzer was doing....

perhaps the objective here is to have "sections" providing rotational force in arcs in the horizontal plane.

i think that may allow us to continue a rotational motion.




tak22

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Re: Tri-Force Magnets - Finally shown to be not OU?
« Reply #64 on: February 24, 2008, 09:42:46 PM »
I've been following this idea and I keep thinking about how most all the testing is done in the 'flat' or 2D. This is probably because it's easiest to test this way and results are achieved. I don't have any parts to play with, but if I did, I'd start looking at decreasing the repulsion zone and increasing the acceleration zones by elevation changes of the gates and roller. Just something to think about.

tak

Omnibus

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Re: Tri-Force Magnets - Finally shown to be not OU?
« Reply #65 on: February 24, 2008, 10:33:54 PM »
@smOky2,

If what you?re saying is true and there?s indeed 25% greater energy out, exiting the set of stations, than in (that is, the energy to overcome the repulsion barrier at the entrance) then it is OU and we have made it even in the horizontal variant. That has to be demonstrated experimentally, though, because it isn?t at all evident theoretically in this case.

FreeEnergy

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Re: Tri-Force Magnets - Finally shown to be not OU?
« Reply #66 on: February 24, 2008, 11:30:05 PM »
can't you have something that mechanically or electronically  flips the magnetic poles from the swinging pendulum's torque (better use a Milkovic system http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1763.0/topicseen.html)? this torque somehow mechanically or electronically  flips the magnet's poles for every swing that goes in/out.

 just a thought.




peace

sm0ky2

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Re: Tri-Force Magnets - Finally shown to be not OU?
« Reply #67 on: February 24, 2008, 11:33:20 PM »
@smOky2,

If what you?re saying is true and there?s indeed 25% greater energy out, exiting the set of stations, than in (that is, the energy to overcome the repulsion barrier at the entrance) then it is OU and we have made it even in the horizontal variant. That has to be demonstrated experimentally, though, because it isn?t at all evident theoretically in this case.


thats somewhat is a mosgnomer.. there is not always "25% more energy out".

there is 25% more energy generated while transversing the gates. - meaning, sometimes this must be extracted inbetween the entrance and exit of the gates -
 i.e.- by work, such as when Clanzer's set-up transported the firetruck through the gates.
the repulsion force at the gate exit is identicle to the force at the entrance, on a "balanced" gate..
« Last Edit: February 25, 2008, 12:09:08 AM by sm0ky2 »

Rusty_Springs

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Re: Tri-Force Magnets - Finally shown to be not OU?
« Reply #68 on: February 24, 2008, 11:39:44 PM »
Hi sm0ky2
I felt my trigate was OU but I wouldn't say it until it was confirmed by other sources and your maths sound good, I would like to say that to make a magnet move along a plan you need repultion, magnets move from repultion to attraction if you remove the repultion the magnet has nowhere to go and will just sit there, the best you can do is move the repultion so its easier for the magnet comming in which I have done with the extended magnets, this give a bigger area to come into and has more kick going out.
I'm not saying a working motor will come from this but if you can enter the extended gate at the dead zone this takes you past the repultion and you will travel along the gate and kick out a working motor maybe like this, you have a rotor arm with a bearing in the centre at each end you have a bar magnet standing upright as the stator you have two Trigate setup so the rotor magnets come in at the dead zone and they are opposite each other now the rotor arm is attract at both sides by the Trigate moves along the Trigate then kicks out crosses the air gap and again is attracted in by the Trigate opposite and the rotation continues no repultion comming in because your moving in at the dead zone and repultion going out to cross the air gap.
I havn't tested this but in theory it looks good, I have one rotor and two Trigates because I always find with magnets that less is alway better.
Take Care All
Graham

FreeEnergy

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Re: Tri-Force Magnets - Finally shown to be not OU?
« Reply #69 on: February 24, 2008, 11:42:52 PM »
if anyone knows a way a roller can also role sideways let me know or show me an example.
because if we can have the roller role up a ramp then role sideways it can go back to its initial starting zero point.

Omnibus

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Re: Tri-Force Magnets - Finally shown to be not OU?
« Reply #70 on: February 24, 2008, 11:43:00 PM »
@smOky2,

If what you?re saying is true and there?s indeed 25% greater energy out, exiting the set of stations, than in (that is, the energy to overcome the repulsion barrier at the entrance) then it is OU and we have made it even in the horizontal variant. That has to be demonstrated experimentally, though, because it isn?t at all evident theoretically in this case.


thats somewhat is a mosgnomer.. there is not "25% more energy out".

there is 25% more energy generated while transversing the gates. - meaning this must be extracted inbetween the entrance and exit of the gates -
 i.e.- by work, such as when Clanzer's set-up transported the firetruck through the gates.
the repulsion force at the gate exit is identicle to the force at the entrance.

If what you?re saying now, which contradicts what you said before, is the case then the horizontal variant is hopeless. That 25% was thrown in for no reason. The only hope then remains the sloping one which is a variant of the SMOT.

Omnibus

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Re: Tri-Force Magnets - Finally shown to be not OU?
« Reply #71 on: February 24, 2008, 11:52:46 PM »
@Rusty_Springs,

Read my analysis of the Johannes Taisnierius device (contemporary SMOT) and try to understand it. That?s the only analysis so far conclusively proving overunity. Most likely your device is a variation of the SMOT seemingly a better construction because probably the piece can exit the system smoothly and proceed on a reverse sloping plane unlike the piece in SMOT whereby it has to fall at a distance to escape being stuck at the sticky spot. If this is confirmed to be the case then traveling of the piece along a closed loop will only be a matter of not so difficult tune-up.

As for the possibility to build a self-sustaining device when all the stations are on a horizontal plane, that?s highly doubtful because of the explanation you give above. Unless, the energy out is greater than the energy in as @ClaNZeR?s fifth video seems to suggest. Like I said, all that has to be confirmed experimentally and before doing that all speculations don?t hold much water.

sm0ky2

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Re: Tri-Force Magnets - Finally shown to be not OU?
« Reply #72 on: February 25, 2008, 12:08:01 AM »
perhaps i was confusing when i said that "it exits with"

i mean over the entire system loop, from begining to the otherend, extra energy is gained. Wether or not we extract this does not seem to effect the exit force on a balanced gate.
[ not saying that using this energy "cant" effect it, just that it doesnt always], which to me is a pretty clear demonstration of overunity. though to be absolutely sure, more accurate measurements of the input energy vs the output must be made.


i dont think that "hopeless" is the right term here., as we can easily shape the flux-distortion
so that (part of) this 25% is directed towards the gate exit - as in the "Extended Force Gate"
and a few other variants we have seen,
The extended gate being uni-directional, is imbalanced - and therefore causes the attraction zone to be larger on one end than the other. conversly the repulsion zone is shorter on one end than the other.
Important to note that a shorter distance through the repulsion field means there are more lines of flux per meter, and thus the field is "stronger", but their total energy value is the same.
albeit spread over a larger area on one end. This is why the rollers speed increases at it nears the end of the extended gates.
and Clanzer has already demonstrated one method of extracting the energy, between the gates in his FireTruck demonstration. the gates are performing work, by moving a mass.


Omnibus

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Re: Tri-Force Magnets - Finally shown to be not OU?
« Reply #73 on: February 25, 2008, 12:13:42 AM »
perhaps i was confusing when i said that "it exits with"

i mean over the entire system loop, from begining to the otherend, extra energy is gained. Wether or not we extract this does not seem to effect the exit force on a balanced gate.
[ not saying that using this energy "cant" effect it, just that it doesnt always], which to me is a pretty clear demonstration of overunity. though to be absolutely sure, more accurate measurements of the input energy vs the output must be made.


i dont think that "hopeless" is the right term here., as we can easily shape the flux-distortion
so that (part of) this 25% is directed towards the gate exit - as in the "Extended Force Gate"
and a few other variants we have seen,
The extended gate being uni-directional, is imbalanced - and therefore causes the attraction zone to be larger on one end than the other. conversly the repulsion zone is shorter on one end than the other.
Important to note that a shorter distance through the repulsion field means there are more lines of flux per meter, and thus the field is "stronger", but their total energy value is the same.
albeit spread over a larger area on one end. This is why the rollers speed increases at it nears the end of the extended gates.
and Clanzer has already demonstrated one method of extracting the energy, between the gates in his FireTruck demonstration. the gates are performing work, by moving a mass.



That will be interesting to demonstrate experimentally. So far what appears as acceleration within the stations is compensated therein and whether or not there's more energy out than in isn't clear.

sm0ky2

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Re: Tri-Force Magnets - Finally shown to be not OU?
« Reply #74 on: February 25, 2008, 12:16:03 AM »
@ OMNI

the inclined Tri-Gates are nothing like the smot, except for the fact that it goes up an incline.


If i had to compare the Tri-Force Gate to anything, it would be the Howard Johnson Linear Motor, Like in the You-Tube video i linked above.
as you can see in the video, their actions are identicle. as are their magnetic fields when observed through the gaussviewer.

the magnetic field of the Smot looks nothing like this.