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Hydrogen energy => Electrolysis of H20 and Hydrogen on demand generation => Topic started by: storre on February 09, 2008, 05:00:32 PM

Title: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on February 09, 2008, 05:00:32 PM
I suppose this is somewhat related to electrolysis though not exactly. On page 20 of this pdf (or search the pdf for "The Peter Davey Heater") they show a very fast liquid heater that uses the frequency of the mains (in this case 50Hz in NZ) to vibrate 2 bells (that naturally resonate at 50Hz due to their size). The distance between the bells is important also and the doc only describes it as a trial and error process by using the time it takes to heat water and gradually adjusting the distance between the bells. Says it uses cavitation and is said to have a COP of 20!

Using 2 bells tuned to the same frequency seems an effective way to adjust the distance between the bells to find the sweet spot. Especially if the bells are more of a flat sphere.

Haven't been able to find any more specific plans but with some trial and error it doesn't seem to difficult to reproduce. I've seen video of it working and it boils the water in seconds using very little energy since there is not a direct connection between the neutral and main.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: gyulasun on February 09, 2008, 06:21:02 PM
The direct connection is made by the water itself and only a correct current meter can tell you how much input power is actually used from the mains!  Tap water usually conducts electric current quite well (think of hair drier accidents in bathrooms!)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: gyulasun on February 09, 2008, 06:21:12 PM
doubled, sorry
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on February 09, 2008, 07:01:21 PM
Shouldn't you be able to read the resistance across the bells once they are in water or whatever liquid? Since this works with any liquid and different liquids conduct more or less then the energy consumed would coincide with the conductivity of the liquid. It might not even work on something like salt water. Especially with 220v. It seems the key to how this functions is matching the oscillation of the bells with the frequency of the mains or some octave of it and also control the space between the vibrating bells to create a type of cavitation effect. Maybe similar to how a water hammer works? I think a better shape than a bell would be a cone shape since you could vary the distance between the bells uniformly with 2 of the same exact size and frequency.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: gyulasun on February 09, 2008, 11:38:31 PM
Shouldn't you be able to read the resistance across the bells once they are in water or whatever liquid? Since this works with any liquid and different liquids conduct more or less then the energy consumed would coincide with the conductivity of the liquid. It might not even work on something like salt water. Especially with 220v. It seems the key to how this functions is matching the oscillation of the bells with the frequency of the mains or some octave of it and also control the space between the vibrating bells to create a type of cavitation effect. Maybe similar to how a water hammer works? I think a better shape than a bell would be a cone shape since you could vary the distance between the bells uniformly with 2 of the same exact size and frequency.

Hi,

Yes I measured with a multimeter the electric resistance of a glass of normal tap water just out of curiosity and found values from 4-5kOhms to 20-30kOhms depending on how deeply I merged the measuring tips.   Obviously the surface area of the possible bells are bigger than the tips so the conductance improves and also the distance between them counts. And surely the conductance of the hot water also better than the cold one.  I agree on your cone shape (or the like) variants could be better.
I found a link with ongoing replication attempts:
http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/1414-daveys-water-heater.html

and here is another link in French with some efficiency calculations, though no exact resonance tuning was done:
http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/calcul_sonette.html   (and see the html pages here http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/ )

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on February 10, 2008, 12:46:58 AM

Hi Over_Unity dot com blokes,

I made some experiments with some Davey's like devices few months ago (and, BTW, had my grid meter negatively 'reacting'  :-\)...

I could not produce any 'overunity'.
I just can say that one of my device seemed to be more efficient than a kettle. (100% versus 94%).
BTW : this device heats water faster than a kettle (while drawing a lot of amps!)  and seems also to do some electrolysis at the same time.

*But*
An acquaintance of mine who is a retired metal fitter and who built a more 'professional' device told me that he once stumbled upon a very strange behavior with obvious 'overunity' (the amps consumption was tumbling down and the water boiled very very fast). He could not believe his eyes. As far as I'm aware of it, he was not able to reproduce this phenomenon. (BTW: I will ask him again about that ASAP).

So, IMHO, this device is promissing but reserved for the skifull, well equipped, very patient, lucky and fortunate builders!  For my part I'm not very equipped nor patient! So, I gave up (for the moment).

Best

PS : as Gyula pointed it out, some of my stuff (in French) at : http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/   ;D
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: esaruoho on February 10, 2008, 01:09:57 AM
Peter Davey is a saxophone player. if he can figure it out, and make it work, so can any old other musician dealing with frequencies. note the resemblance  to John Keely's stuff.
and then of course:
(http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/sax/09.png)
(http://keelynet.com/sonicboiler2.jpg)
" 02/05/08 - More on the Sonic Boiler
KeelyNet The photos shown to date reminded me of a website I found a couple of years ago describing a similar thing. Here are my notes from that find; "As a sensitive musician Mr Davey noticed, that there was such a frequency of the motor and propeller buzzing, when the aeroplane cabin and his body were getting into a resonance. At this unique resonance frequency he always was experiencing an influx of heat in his aeroplane cabin. He did not know yet, that in future this phenomenon will be utilised in ultrasonic weapon systems for effective and undetected killing of people. But he decided to test whether the same phenomenon is to appear, if a metal hemisphere which simulates his pilot cabin is submerged in water and is excited into a resonance frequency. So he found two tops from old bicycle bells, joined them together, tuned one of them to 50 Hz frequency, attached electricity wire to each one of them, and thrown them into water. Surprisingly, water started to boil extremely fast. So he made his first heater patent based on this observation. This patent was already registered in 1944. After a hero return from the war, he had a device, which repetitively proved to everyone who measured it, that it has the efficiency decisively exceeding 100%. Realising this, he believed that the world is going to pounce on the opportunity of production and use of this technical miracle. After all, people are full of declarations about apparent saving on energy, resources, about protection of our natural environment, etc. However, the reality turned out to be completely opposite. Immediately after it was experimentally confirmed that the device has unexplainably high efficiency, the heater and the inventor fell into disfavour of various institutions that are interested in selling electricity and that protect the monopoly on electrical power. In the result, this extraordinary invention received an extraordinary treatment! Namely authorities were doing everything in their powers to disallow the production and sale of this heater in New Zealand. One of legal tricks that were used against this heater, was that it was declared officially to be "unsafe to health and life of users". (Please notice that practically every electrical device working on 220 Volts can be declared unsafe, if someone in the position of authority wishes to put it down.) In turn in New Zealand it is impossible to undertake the production and sale of anything, that is not officially approved by the government. In the result, Mr Davey was fighting for almost 50 years to receive a permit for the industrial production of this heater. And during these almost 50 years, the permission was continually refused to him, no matter what research outcomes he submitted to please authorities, and no matter how hard he tried. But it is interesting, that in Australia an electric jug with a heating element of the design very similar to the Davey?s heater was put in mass production (this Australian jug most probably is produced in there still even today). This Australian jug is working on the principle of electrical resistance of water (i.e. not telekinesis as the heater of Mr Davey does). Water that it heats is a resistor, in which heat is generated because of the electric current flows through this water. This Australian jug is exactly the same "dangerous to the health and lives", like the telekinetic heater of Mr Davey. Only that it did not encountered in Australia similar bureaucratic resistance because the energy efficiency of it is "normal". When I met Mr Davey for the first time in 1990, he still was appealing to authorities, and still had a hope to receive a permit for the production of his heater - in spite of these almost 50 years of lost battles with bureaucrats. He was even showing to me a large stock of components he gathered to start a production immediately after the permit is granted to him. However, he gave up the experimental production of research copies of his heater. The design of the Davey's sonic heater is extremely simple. It actually is composed of two major parts only - see Figure K8 (3) from monograph [1/4]. The most important out of these two parts is a resonating hemispherical bowl (1) made of a sound inducing metal plate. The second part is a buffering hemispherical bowl (2) almost identical in shape to the bowl (1). This second bowl has the radius around 4 mm larger than the resonating hemispherical bowl (1). Both bowls are assembled symmetrically one around the other, means the hemispherical bowl (1) is placed inside of the hemispherical bowl (2). Coin is 32 mm wide = 1.25984 inches / Big bowl approximately 1.75 inches wide and .75 inches thick / Small bowl approximately 1 3/8 inches wide. Of course, apart from these two bowls, the heater also includes a long rod, nuts, washers, and electrical wires. These are to hold it together, to supply electricity to both bowls, and to allow the heater to be submerged into water that it heats. But these other parts are marginal additions only. The major parts are the bowls. During experimental production of this heater, the resonating hemispherical bowl (1) usually is made from an old cover for a bicycle bell. The dimensions of this hemispherical bowl are not important. It is only vital that it falls into a sonic resonance at the frequency of 50 Hertz, and that it has the outer surface which is parallel and equidistant from the external buffering hemispherical bowl (2). To each of these two bowls a different wire of the household electricity supply (i.e. 220 V, 50 Hz) is connected. The heater must be submerged in water that it heat. It brings water to the boiling point extremely fast. More details about the design and operation of this sonic heater is provided in subsection K3.3 from volume 10 of monograph [1/4]. After being constructed, the Davey's telekinetic heater must be "tuned" in two different manners. The first tuning depends on providing the hemispherical bowl (1) with such frequency of the own oscillations, that makes this bowl to resonate acoustically when a sound of the frequency 50 Hertz is emitted nearby. The second tuning of the heater depends on appropriate selecting the distance "L" between both bowls (1) and (2). On this distance depends the formation of the standing wave between both bowls. Thus it decides about the energy efficiency of the entire heater. From the information that the inventor repeated to me, I gather that the measurements carried out by New Zealand scientists suggested that this heater may consume even less than the equivalent for around 5% of the energy that it generates in form of heat. This would indicate, that the electrical efficiency of this heater is around 2000%. (Means, that the heater produces over 20 times more heat than it consumes electrical energy.)" - from Private Files "
said keelynet.
(http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/sax/12.png)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: esaruoho on February 10, 2008, 01:21:17 AM
(http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/sax/12.png)

went on a chatroom and asked a few mates, and they said:
"esa if that's the G he's going for it's 49hz"
"heres a good reference for you
(http://www.dolmetsch.com/midinotes.gif)"

yay!

that bell/bowl in his hand is designed to resonate at 50Hz. he can adjust the other bowl inside the bowl  to be closer or further away,  but i dont understand what the electricity does and how that alters things.
does New Zealand / Christchurch area  feature 50Hz electricity? if yes, then maybe thats the whole point!

New Zealand - http://www.kropla.com/electric2.htm (http://www.kropla.com/electric2.htm) - 230V 50Hz.

so here we go. Davey has a bowl that resonates at 50Hz - he is shown pressing the G-note which is 49Hz (or depending on tuning, closer to 50hz?), his device wires  50Hz 230V electricity into the bowl system.. and what happens then between the two bowls resonating at the same frequency?

where's that hans vlieven dude when we need him? this shouldnt be that hard.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Turtlefuel on February 29, 2008, 10:21:53 PM
I am glad to see some interest in this device. I made a very very amateurish device a year ago with bicycle ring clocks and got really interesting results. First of all is was able to boil water much faster than a kettle and my measurement showed a slight overunity (which can be the result of my measurement equipment not being good enough...).

There is something in this.. but the clocks need to be tuned to the AC frequencies,not an easy thing to do at home.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Nali2001 on March 28, 2008, 03:12:26 PM
Here is a news report coverage video about the device:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1527526922275986120&hl=en (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1527526922275986120&hl=en)

And the article:

http://www.stuff.co.nz/thepress/4379593a6530.html

Slide show:

http://multimedia.stuff.co.nz/thepress/sonic/
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: esaruoho on March 29, 2008, 06:47:25 PM
theres bits also on http://merlib.org/node/5504 (http://merlib.org/node/5504)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: FatBird on March 30, 2008, 04:50:16 PM
I wonder if stainless steel bowls bought at a grocery store, & properly spaced, would work?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: pese on March 30, 2008, 09:22:53 PM
I wonder if stainless steel bowls bought at a grocery store, & properly spaced, would work?
to rasoirs blades (is stainless steel) (shaver) connected to 220volt , with 1 cm space , will cook the water also. This is know  since WW2  to soldiers that boils his rasoir water this way.

.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on March 30, 2008, 10:09:29 PM

Hi Pese,

Thanks a lot for your informations. I will test this device ASAP.
You mean this king of razor blades, I guess:

(http://freenrg.info/Pic/razor_blade.jpg)


You may also know that, during WW1, these blades were also used as detectors
(diodes) to build radio receivers:

(http://freenrg.info/Pic/razor_blade1.jpg)


(http://freenrg.info/Pic/DetectRasoir.gif)

See:
http://dspt.club.fr/detecteurs.htm  (http://dspt.club.fr/detecteurs.htm)
http://www.carnets-tsf.fr/galene (http://www.carnets-tsf.fr/galene)
In French, sorry.

Best
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on March 30, 2008, 10:27:25 PM
I wonder if stainless steel bowls bought at a grocery store, & properly spaced, would work?

Yes, I think so.

Best
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: pese on April 02, 2008, 02:16:35 PM

Hi Pese,

Thanks a lot for your informations. I will test this device ASAP.
You mean this king of razor blades, I guess:
 

You may also know that, during WW1, these blades were also used as detectors
(diodes) to build radio receivers:
 
(http://freenrg.info/Pic/DetectRasoir.gif)

See:
http://dspt.club.fr/detecteurs.htm  (http://dspt.club.fr/detecteurs.htm)
http://www.carnets-tsf.fr/galene (http://www.carnets-tsf.fr/galene)
In French, sorry.

Best

jes exactly this typ of rasoir blades.
Do it in cup of water with 2 wire. (i use this with 60watt blulb (lamp in serie to the 230 volt line (as as
"fuse" . so  no problem if the blades  will move ant make short cirbuit  in the cup..

THIS SYSTEM ist used , up to date , from "prisoniers" now in Germany (possible also over the world)

----------------
This circuit for "diode" detector receiver
(as crystal-receiver, i havnt seen before

First its not to understand, because an "Diode" as an semiconductor ist - in normal way- needed.
to metals "normally" will not do this.

BUT it exist knowledges mit soft iron that is ZINC layed !!

Possibly ist is used the razoir blat as neutral, and the used secuirity pin was an ZINC  plated device.
andso its used as an Diode  (or an negative resistance) effect , that i seen in some papers before...

Only this shown me THE WAY to "understand"

Gustav Pese

P.S.
I reed the french pages.
this reclicas was done wil galenea
and another with graphit from an pen.

possibly that can used for stronger CW "morse" transmitting ro receive (1945)
WW2 again


Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: rickter on April 04, 2008, 08:05:36 AM
Looking at the vidios it appears like ther is intense boiling between the two bells. The question is if it acually heats a larger volume of water as fast or faster than a conventional heater. Anyone replicating this thing for a test?
Rickter
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on April 05, 2008, 12:41:31 AM

@Pese

...........................
Do it in cup of water with 2 wire. (i use this with 60watt blulb (lamp in serie to the 230 volt line (as as
"fuse" . so  no problem if the blades  will move ant make short cirbuit  in the cup..

Thanks a lot for these tips (and, BTW,  the others informations)

Best
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: FatBird on April 09, 2008, 12:10:51 AM
Why couldn't a person attach wood sticks to two flat metal plates.  The wood sticks would allow a person to safely adjust the plates distance with the Mains Power on.

Of course, a light bulb in series should be used for safety.

Comments welcome.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: AhuraMazda on April 09, 2008, 08:18:59 PM

Some who are with it may find this article helpful

http://www.physicstoday.org/pt/vol-54/iss-12/pdf/vol53no2p29-34.pdf
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 11, 2008, 11:29:15 AM
Looking at the vidios it appears like ther is intense boiling between the two bells. The question is if it acually heats a larger volume of water as fast or faster than a conventional heater. Anyone replicating this thing for a test?
Rickter


In the article at http://www.totalizm.nazwa.pl/boiler.htm which is in itself a much interesting place to visit, the Polish prof. says that the volume of water does not matter. There is more going on in there then simple electrolysis, there are resonance and cavity issues as well. Those 2 tunings seems to be the key to its efficiency, the inner bell needs to be tuned to 50Hz. (Does anyone know how to tune a bell to that freq?) and the other is the distance. If we can get some more attention to this heater in this community not only we may have efficient way to heat water we may also learn from it more efficient ways to break the water for Brown's gas. Maybe Meyers was tapping into the same space but from a different angle????

I say lets learn how to tune a bell to 50Hz. The distance thing is str8 forward afterwards. This device deserves a chance.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: b0rg13 on May 12, 2008, 10:08:08 AM
has anyone ever tried to make this device? , it looks fairly basic and surly it would be a great way to heat water for showers and heating., the only other thing ive seen come close is the Thrapp device, which seems to take a lot longer to do the job.

...any way i dont know much about it except what ive been reading, maybe some of you here know more about it,as in, its crap, its good, we just dont care.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 12, 2008, 05:33:36 PM
BORG @Loner probably knows about this  but he's so damn busy  i'd hate to bother him  Chet
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NewAge on May 14, 2008, 04:23:12 PM
If this device uses the 50Hz grid frequency to vibrate the bells why there is not even a slight noise coming from it? You can clearly hear the water boiling but no grid 50Hz noise on the video http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1527526922275986120&hl=en and the presentation http://multimedia.stuff.co.nz/thepress/sonic/
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: FatBird on May 14, 2008, 08:23:00 PM
This might be easier than most people think.  Has anyone, other than myself, ever taken a Vaporizer apart?  I mean the kind that shoots out a MIST of steam when the unit is plugged into the wall mains.  Water can be heard BOILING inside the small chamber in a matter of seconds.

I measured the current & it draws .8 Amps at 120 VAC.  Davey used 240 VAC, so NO WONDER it was able to heat the water so fast.

Old vaporizers used 2 Carbon Rods inside, but new ones just use 2 Flat Pieces of small sheet metal to boil the water.

Comments welcome.


.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: AlanA on May 14, 2008, 08:51:55 PM
Hi FatBird,

sounds logic. But Peter Davey seems to heat a great amount of water.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on May 14, 2008, 09:31:35 PM

Hi FatBird,

Vaporizer. Interesting.
Could you give us any picture?

Best
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: hartiberlin on May 14, 2008, 10:01:13 PM
I hope some more people will experiment with it,
as the most energy is still used in a household to heat
water via electricity.

To goo OFFGRID we need a technology like this to save
for instance the battery bank in your house ( if you
now use solar power or any other means to recharge your lead acid
battery bank..)
to heat water more efficiently...

So did anybody experiment with it already ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: tao on May 14, 2008, 10:08:56 PM
The Davey setup is definitely a good design, but we still have no idea of how much energy he is using to create the effect.

We know that Thrapp's setup seems much better, but is a bit more complex in its apparent use of multiple frequencies and a perfect sphere.

Little do many know, but there is another electric setup that I FEEL works better than both of those, and it was made by good old Stan, SM...

If you want me to write up a bit about it, let me know.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 14, 2008, 10:22:25 PM
The answer is seen in any stringed instrument, or tuning fork. For example, take 2 tuning forks of the same LENGTH and hit just one of them. Put that vibrating one near the other and the second one will start to vibrate also. You can also use a tuning fork of double the frequency and get the same effect. Take a guitar and strike the low E string (top string) without touching the others. Now stop the string you just stuck and listen to the high E (thinnest string) and it will be vibrating also even though it is at twice the frequency of the low E that you struck. Octaves (doubling or halving of the frequency demonstrates this the best. Take a wind chime and another wind chime exactly half the length of the first. Strike the bigger one and then put it near the one half it's length and then stop the big one from vibrating. The smaller one will be vibrating also even though it was never physically touched. All the same principle.

In this heater the electricity (mains) are oscillating at 50Hz. These bells Peter uses can't be 50Hz because they are too small. I guess them to be 800Hz or 1600Hz which are just octaves of 50Hz.

Someone here asked how to tune bells. Just like wind chimes, the smaller the bell the higher the frequency so start with something a little lower frequency than 1600Hz and then grind it down until you get to 1600Hz. If using 60Hz mains then the bells would need to be 1920Hz.

Then these bells will be vibrating in octave relation with the mains and you just need to adjust the distance between the two bells to find the sweet spot where the waves coming off each bell strike the other bell so as to not dampen IT'S vibration.

Same theory as to why you suspend a wind chime from a particular distance from the end so you hold it only on the node of the wave so you don't dampen the wave that is traveling up and down the wind chime.

Or think of it like two children swings but slow it down to visualize it. A swing (pendulum) will have a natural frequency determined by it's length. If you want to use the most minimal energy to continue the swing swinging then you need to push at the same frequency as this natural frequency of the swing.

With the 2 bells vibrating both at 1600Hz (in the case of 50Hz mains) and distanced from each other so the node of the waves strikes the opposite bell at exactly the right time and you make the water very hot very fast :-)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: FatBird on May 14, 2008, 11:15:51 PM
@ NerzhDishua

Hi FatBird, Vaporizer. Interesting.  Could you give us any picture?



Attached is a picture.  In my opinion, the inside of the Vaporizer Heating Chamber is about the same size as Peter Davey's Heating Chamber.  Older Vaporizers had 2 Carbon Rods, but the new ones have 2 small pieces of sheet metal.

A 120 Volt Vaporizer can heat water to boiling in a few seconds, just like Davey's, IMHO.  NO WONDER Davey's can heat water in a few seconds connected to 240 Volts.


Comments welcome.

.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 15, 2008, 12:24:50 AM
The answer is seen in any stringed instrument, or tuning fork. For example, take 2 tuning forks of the same LENGTH and hit just one of them. Put that vibrating one near the other and the second one will start to vibrate also. You can also use a tuning fork of double the frequency and get the same effect. Take a guitar and strike the low E string (top string) without touching the others. Now stop the string you just stuck and listen to the high E (thinnest string) and it will be vibrating also even though it is at twice the frequency of the low E that you struck. Octaves (doubling or halving of the frequency demonstrates this the best. Take a wind chime and another wind chime exactly half the length of the first. Strike the bigger one and then put it near the one half it's length and then stop the big one from vibrating. The smaller one will be vibrating also even though it was never physically touched. All the same principle.

In this heater the electricity (mains) are oscillating at 50Hz. These bells Peter uses can't be 50Hz because they are too small. I guess them to be 800Hz or 1600Hz which are just octaves of 50Hz.

Someone here asked how to tune bells. Just like wind chimes, the smaller the bell the higher the frequency so start with something a little lower frequency than 1600Hz and then grind it down until you get to 1600Hz. If using 60Hz mains then the bells would need to be 1920Hz.

Then these bells will be vibrating in octave relation with the mains and you just need to adjust the distance between the two bells to find the sweet spot where the waves coming off each bell strike the other bell so as to not dampen IT'S vibration.

Same theory as to why you suspend a wind chime from a particular distance from the end so you hold it only on the node of the wave so you don't dampen the wave that is traveling up and down the wind chime.

Or think of it like two children swings but slow it down to visualize it. A swing (pendulum) will have a natural frequency determined by it's length. If you want to use the most minimal energy to continue the swing swinging then you need to push at the same frequency as this natural frequency of the swing.

With the 2 bells vibrating both at 1600Hz (in the case of 50Hz mains) and distanced from each other so the node of the waves strikes the opposite bell at exactly the right time and you make the water very hot very fast :-)


You obviously know a lot about this. I will ask some questions maybe you know the answers.
1) According to one of our friends above the small bell is 1 3/8 inch in diameter (3.5cm) and the bigger bell is 1.75inch (4.5cm). If the small bell vibrates at 1600Hz then the bigger one would vibrate at how many Hz.?
2) How the electrical frequency effects them to vibrate is a mystery to me can you explain?
3) If instead of hitting the bells directly with electricity we hit one of them with a stick and repeat this action like in the old door bells
or telephones would the water still heat?

Regards.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 15, 2008, 12:27:27 AM
@ NerzhDishua

Hi FatBird, Vaporizer. Interesting.  Could you give us any picture?



Attached is a picture.  In my opinion, the inside of the Vaporizer Heating Chamber is about the same size as Peter Davey's Heating Chamber.  Older Vaporizers had 2 Carbon Rods, but the new ones have 2 small pieces of sheet metal.

A 120 Volt Vaporizer can heat water to boiling in a few seconds, just like Davey's, IMHO.  NO WONDER Davey's can heat water in a few seconds connected to 240 Volts.


Comments welcome.

.

This has nothing to do with it. That vaporizer is fast as it is boiling a small amount of water.
If whats said is true this boiler heats any amount of water as fast.

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 15, 2008, 12:29:29 AM
The Davey setup is definitely a good design, but we still have no idea of how much energy he is using to create the effect.

We know that Thrapp's setup seems much better, but is a bit more complex in its apparent use of multiple frequencies and a perfect sphere.

Little do many know, but there is another electric setup that I FEEL works better than both of those, and it was made by good old Stan, SM...

If you want me to write up a bit about it, let me know.

Please share anything you know about Meyers system.
I am sure everyone here would be very interested.
Thanks.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on May 15, 2008, 12:31:37 AM

@FatBird ,

Thanks for the picture...
I never seen this thing before! :P
Actually, according to Goggle, it also exists in France. :)

According also to few personal experiments -and should I repeat myself -
you can heat water very fast with a 'Davey-like' device but if it is not
well tuned you will also use a lot of amps...

I tried to boil more than 4 liters of water with the 220 Volt alternative grid current
My 16 amps fuses did not appreciate. I could only reach about 76?.
My calculations gave a COP=/= 100%

Anyway - as I told before - a relative of mine, once, stumbled upon a
very strange behavior = the amp consumption was tremendously decreasing after a short while.
But -as far as I am aware of it- he could not manage to reproduce this phenomenon.

BTW: These Davey-like devices are also able to make electrolysis when 'DC fed' and when
the 2 cups are close. (closer than in the picture)

So, IMHO a device worth to be experimented by a good builder/fitter. I'm a poor builder.

(http://freenrg.info/Pic/Davey_Like_Device_1_Small.jpg)


Best






Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 15, 2008, 04:34:08 AM
You obviously know a lot about this. I will ask some questions maybe you know the answers.
1) According to one of our friends above the small bell is 1 3/8 inch in diameter (3.5cm) and the bigger bell is 1.75inch (4.5cm). If the small bell vibrates at 1600Hz then the bigger one would vibrate at how many Hz.?
2) How the electrical frequency effects them to vibrate is a mystery to me can you explain?
3) If instead of hitting the bells directly with electricity we hit one of them with a stick and repeat this action like in the old door bells
or telephones would the water still heat?

Regards.

I think they are overall the same size. For example a 1" diameter tube 12" long will vibrate the same frequency as a  3/4" tube of 14" length. Understand I'm just estimating here but it's the overall size that matters. From the bells I saw in the pictures, one was smaller in diameter but slightly longer in length so if they are equal in the overall size then the frequency will be the same. If the smaller bell is really smaller then it's possible he is using the next strongest overtone which would be the 5th interval or dominate of the bigger bell. If the smaller bell is really smaller overall then the frequency would be the ratio of 4:3 or about 2133Hz but I really think they are both 1600Hz

The frequency of 50Hz (in the case of New Zealand mains) is audible but a very low frequency. Humans can here to about 30-40Hz. We don't hear the 50Hz because it would have to be connected to something large that would reverberate that frequency to change it from an electric oscillation to an audible oscillation. Similar to how a speaker works. All we need to know is that 50Hz will create a 100Hz, 200Hz, 400Hz, 800Hz, 1600Hz and also at a lower amplitude other harmonics such as 150Hz etc. If we make a bell that naturally vibrates at one of those frequencies then I believe it will vibrate at it's natural frequency. Imagine a pendulum swinging at a rate of 100 swings per minute. If we push it at 50 times a minute we will use very little energy to keep it going. If we try to push at at 51, 60 or any other non resonant interval then there will be a lot of wasted pushing :)

I don't believe vibrating the bells physically at 1600Hz would create the same effect. He calls them sonic heaters so I could be wrong but I think the action of the ac voltage at the correct frequency is what causes the heating.

I must say that this is all speculation but it makes sense to me and what I understand about frequency. I'm a sax player like Peter so at least am coming from the same direction ;-)

I'm getting ready to make one of these and am thinking to use cone shapes instead of bells so as to keep the distance between the 2 bells (cones in my case) more consistent. I'm not sure if a bell rings more easily than a cone so that might make a difference. A cone though would be easier to make and could be made longer and just ground down to the right frequency. Also both cones would be exactly the same size but the inner one would stick out.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NewAge on May 15, 2008, 08:30:31 AM
OK, how about his new sphere design?

(http://technience.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/boilingwaterwithsound.thumbnail.jpg) (http://www.scene.org/~esa/merlib/sax/02.png)

Did he change to spheric design because it is easier to tune a sphere into resonance?
The article says "So he made his first heater patent based on this observation. This patent was already registered in 1944." Can we find the patent? It would answer many questions.

Read the whole article http://merlib.org/node/5504
Here you can watch (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1527526922275986120&hl=en) a video of his heater in action.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 15, 2008, 12:11:50 PM
I think they are overall the same size. For example a 1" diameter tube 12" long will vibrate the same frequency as a  3/4" tube of 14" length. Understand I'm just estimating here but it's the overall size that matters. From the bells I saw in the pictures, one was smaller in diameter but slightly longer in length so if they are equal in the overall size then the frequency will be the same. If the smaller bell is really smaller then it's possible he is using the next strongest overtone which would be the 5th interval or dominate of the bigger bell. If the smaller bell is really smaller overall then the frequency would be the ratio of 4:3 or about 2133Hz but I really think they are both 1600Hz

The frequency of 50Hz (in the case of New Zealand mains) is audible but a very low frequency. Humans can here to about 30-40Hz. We don't hear the 50Hz because it would have to be connected to something large that would reverberate that frequency to change it from an electric oscillation to an audible oscillation. Similar to how a speaker works. All we need to know is that 50Hz will create a 100Hz, 200Hz, 400Hz, 800Hz, 1600Hz and also at a lower amplitude other harmonics such as 150Hz etc. If we make a bell that naturally vibrates at one of those frequencies then I believe it will vibrate at it's natural frequency. Imagine a pendulum swinging at a rate of 100 swings per minute. If we push it at 50 times a minute we will use very little energy to keep it going. If we try to push at at 51, 60 or any other non resonant interval then there will be a lot of wasted pushing :)

I don't believe vibrating the bells physically at 1600Hz would create the same effect. He calls them sonic heaters so I could be wrong but I think the action of the ac voltage at the correct frequency is what causes the heating.

I must say that this is all speculation but it makes sense to me and what I understand about frequency. I'm a sax player like Peter so at least am coming from the same direction ;-)

I'm getting ready to make one of these and am thinking to use cone shapes instead of bells so as to keep the distance between the 2 bells (cones in my case) more consistent. I'm not sure if a bell rings more easily than a cone so that might make a difference. A cone though would be easier to make and could be made longer and just ground down to the right frequency. Also both cones would be exactly the same size but the inner one would stick out.

@storre thanks for sharing.
Before starting to build a replica make sure that your assumption that both are overall the same size is correct.
There are some photos that can be of use. There is also a drawing which I am sure you know about but I do not
know if it is exact.

Someone proposed to look for the patent and he is right.

Also, I am sure you know better then I do as a musician but I still would like to remind you that cone bells are not as good as
spheric bells. This I tell you from experience. Whenever I rang a bell that is cone shaped it did not sound as good or as long as
its spheric counterpart. Maybe I came across bad conic bells :)) Also remember that the holes of the cavity heater (the one with the motor) are not conic. These are just to make you think further.

Speaking of long sounding bells would a Tibetan singing bowl more efficient?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 15, 2008, 12:26:16 PM
@FatBird ,

Thanks for the picture...
I never seen this thing before! :P
Actually, according to Goggle, it also exists in France. :)

According also to few personal experiments -and should I repeat myself -
you can heat water very fast with a 'Davey-like' device but if it is not
well tuned you will also use a lot of amps...

I tried to boil more than 4 liters of water with the 220 Volt alternative grid current
My 16 amps fuses did not appreciate. I could only reach about 76?.
My calculations gave a COP=/= 100%

Anyway - as I told before - a relative of mine, once, stumbled upon a
very strange behavior = the amp consumption was tremendously decreasing after a short while.
But -as far as I am aware of it- he could not manage to reproduce this phenomenon.

BTW: These Davey-like devices are also able to make electrolysis when 'DC fed' and when
the 2 cups are close. (closer than in the picture)

So, IMHO a device worth to be experimented by a good builder/fitter. I'm a poor builder.

(http://freenrg.info/Pic/Davey_Like_Device_1_Small.jpg)


Best


@NerzhDishual I also speak French and visited your blog about your replica. I do not think that you are a poor builder
and your experiment setup looks fine. Thanks for your efforts. But I believe that you missed THE important points which
are the 2 tunings (freq. of the smaller bell and the distance between the two bells) as you were missing some knowledge.

That must be the reason for high amperage that got drawn and still you calculated an almost 100%COP. In my opinion
this result of 100% still means a lot as you were converting AC into sound and heating water in the end!
So how can  it be 100% if this gizmo did not have that something extra we are all looking for? It could have easily been
110% for example or more, 100% is just a coincidence!

@Storre knows about frequencies so I hope he will be more successful with his replication. In my opinion
a replication should be started with good quality bells and when the frequency and distance tuning is right we will get somewhere.

Regards,

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 15, 2008, 12:31:25 PM
OK, how about his new sphere design?

Did he change to spheric design because it is easier to tune a sphere into resonance?
The article says "So he made his first heater patent based on this observation. This patent was already registered in 1944." Can we find the patent? It would answer many questions.

Read the whole article http://merlib.org/node/5504
Here you can watch (http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1527526922275986120&hl=en) a video of his heater in action.


@newage we know very little about this later model so lets concentrate on the earlier one.
According to hearsay, that one is already extraordinary!
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NewAge on May 15, 2008, 02:45:11 PM
@newage we know very little about this later model so lets concentrate on the earlier one.
According to hearsay, that one is already extraordinary!
Maybe we try to look for the patent? The first time he patented this heater in 1944 - see the New Zealand patent number 92.428 dated on 12 December 1944.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 15, 2008, 03:08:06 PM
@storre thanks for sharing.
Before starting to build a replica make sure that your assumption that both are overall the same size is correct.
There are some photos that can be of use. There is also a drawing which I am sure you know about but I do not  know if it is exact.

Someone proposed to look for the patent and he is right.

Also, I am sure you know better then I do as a musician but I still would like to remind you that cone bells are not as good as
spheric bells. This I tell you from experience. Whenever I rang a bell that is cone shaped it did not sound as good or as long as
its spheric counterpart. Maybe I came across bad conic bells :)) Also remember that the holes of the cavity heater (the one with the motor) are not conic. These are just to make you think further.

Speaking of long sounding bells would a Tibetan singing bowl more efficient?


The pictures i've seen of Davey's 2 bell heaters has looked like the inner bell is smaller in diameter but sticks out further than the out bell so seems like they would be the same over all mass and the same frequency. The one that is a sphere may be more like Thrapps model with a probe going down the center to set up the primary vibration. The length of the probe (if that is indeed what he is doing in the sphere) might be a certain length also since it follows the same rule as a pendulum, length and period are exactly related and in resonance with the natural frequency of the sphere.

I've thought also that cones would not ring as good and probably why we haven't seen any made out of cones by Peter. I like the more natural shape of a sphere or half sphere so will probably pass on the cone idea.

What cavity heater with motor are you referring to?

The tibetan singing bowls might work but might be to heavy to ring easily. Can they be found in small sizes like peter uses? We could go with the next lower octave so use a bigger bowl and heat the water faster :) Could be at 800Hz but I'm just guessing.
Title: A good finding
Post by: NewAge on May 15, 2008, 03:55:55 PM
I found this page http://www.totalizm.nazwa.pl/boiler.htm written by a guy who lived in NZ and visited Peter Davey numerous times and took pictures of the heater. Described are details of the device as well as many photos.
You might want to see this one (http://www.totalizm.nazwa.pl/free_energy/boiling_min.jpg) -- instant boiling @ 2.5A -- no conventional heater on Earth can do it!
Also, the sphere, according to him has just protective function, nothing more. Inside is the same semi-spheric design.
Title: Re: A good finding
Post by: devrimogun on May 15, 2008, 04:10:11 PM
I found this page http://www.totalizm.nazwa.pl/boiler.htm written by a guy who lived in NZ and visited Peter Davey numerous times and took pictures of the heater. Described are details of the device as well as many photos.
You might want to see this one (http://www.totalizm.nazwa.pl/free_energy/boiling_min.jpg) -- instant boiling @ 2.5A -- no conventional heater on Earth can do it!
Also, the sphere, according to him has just protective function, nothing more. Inside is the same semi-spheric design.

Yes he is the reason I believe that this may work. He also has a lot of other interesting things that he explains in this WEB site.
I wrote before that he also mentions that the amount of water does not matter.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 15, 2008, 04:19:20 PM
The pictures i've seen of Davey's 2 bell heaters has looked like the inner bell is smaller in diameter but sticks out further than the out bell so seems like they would be the same over all mass and the same frequency. The one that is a sphere may be more like Thrapps model with a probe going down the center to set up the primary vibration. The length of the probe (if that is indeed what he is doing in the sphere) might be a certain length also since it follows the same rule as a pendulum, length and period are exactly related and in resonance with the natural frequency of the sphere.

I've thought also that cones would not ring as good and probably why we haven't seen any made out of cones by Peter. I like the more natural shape of a sphere or half sphere so will probably pass on the cone idea.

What cavity heater with motor are you referring to?

The tibetan singing bowls might work but might be to heavy to ring easily. Can they be found in small sizes like peter uses? We could go with the next lower octave so use a bigger bowl and heat the water faster :) Could be at 800Hz but I'm just guessing.


From the drawings and photos what I can see is that the smaller half sphere sticks further out but it is because it is mounted inside the bigger one 4-5mm outwards. So I believe that the lengths are almost the same. Make further investigations.

I could not find the link for the cavity heater with motor sorry. Just forget about it for the moment.

I think that your guesses on the frequencies could be correct. For the moment the best thing to do is to use about the same sizes and same shapes as the old man it seems like you got the way to adjust the inner one to a certain multiple of 50 (by grinding) but the other adjustment is a bit more tricky as what exactly is the tuning going to be made for?

Do you have an idea on that?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 15, 2008, 04:42:40 PM
SO where do we go from here? seems like cheap experimenting any ideas? !st would be the.....?   Chet
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 15, 2008, 04:47:52 PM
SO where do we go from here? seems like cheap experimenting any ideas? !st would be the.....?   Chet

It is a damn shame that a 92 yo guy is still after money.
Nevertheless, as soon as we solve the 2nd tuning I believe there would be successful replicas.

Tuning of the heater:

       After being constructed, the Davey's telekinetic heater must be "tuned" in two different manners. The first tuning depends on providing the hemispherical bowl (1) with such frequency of the own oscillations, that makes this bowl to resonate acoustically when a sound of the frequency 50 Hertz is emitted nearby. The second tuning of the heater depends on appropriate selecting the distance "L" between both bowls (1) and (2). On this distance depends the formation of the standing wave between both bowls. Thus it decides about the energy efficiency of the entire heater.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 15, 2008, 04:55:58 PM
Tuning for resonance between the cups/ bowls will give the distance   what is the second tuning?   Chet
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 15, 2008, 05:00:07 PM
this seems to be a parabolic[antennae] array with the second cup distance being determined by wavelength IMO  Chet
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 15, 2008, 05:00:18 PM
Tuning for resonance between the cups/ bowls will give the distance   what is the second tuning?   Chet

Nothing else both are explained above.
How do you get the distance?
BTW that paragraph is taken from rex research.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 15, 2008, 05:16:00 PM
directional arrays [not dipole[though this maybe what thrapp has in his bowl] use a set distance  determined by wave length to aim the energy [focus][increase directional power   this distance is a portion of the transmitted wave    EM DEVICES [member here] would know alot more than me    its been many years but i will look thru my stuff on this    Chet    PS a parabolic array[in series][microwaves are examples of parabolic transmitters] is not something that is done [but definitely seems one half of thrapps gizmo] also one half of davies device
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 15, 2008, 05:23:43 PM
directional arrays [not dipole[though this maybe what thrapp has in his bowl] use a set distance  determined by wave length to aim the energy [focus][increase directional power   this distance is a portion of the transmitted wave    EM DEVICES [member here] would know alot more than me    its been many years but i will look thru my stuff on this    Chet    PS a parabolic array[in series][microwaves are examples of parabolic transmitters] is not something that is done [but definitely seems one half of thrapps gizmo] also one half of davies device

Maybe you or Hartiberlin could invite him into the topic.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 15, 2008, 05:32:37 PM
From the drawings and photos what I can see is that the smaller half sphere sticks further out but it is because it is mounted inside the bigger one 4-5mm outwards. So I believe that the lengths are almost the same. Make further investigations.

I could not find the link for the cavity heater with motor sorry. Just forget about it for the moment.

I think that your guesses on the frequencies could be correct. For the moment the best thing to do is to use about the same sizes and same shapes as the old man it seems like you got the way to adjust the inner one to a certain multiple of 50 (by grinding) but the other adjustment is a bit more tricky as what exactly is the tuning going to be made for?

Do you have an idea on that?


@ devrimogun:

As you said the tuning of the 2 bells should be easy. I know I can do it by ear because I've done a lot of piano tuning but it could be done using a computer or other device. The other parameter is the distance between the 2 bells. My feeling is that it just needs to be at a distance such that the node of the vibrations coming off the bells hit the opposite bell with the node of the wave. I think though it would be much easier to just mount the upper bell on a post that is a screw and fix a nut on the top bell. This way you could wind up and down the outer bell and change the distance in a very controlled way. Just wind up to increase the distance between the bells and wind down to decrease. Finer thread on the screw would make for finder adjustments. The screw would either have to be non metal or if using a metal post/screw then it would have to be hollow so the inner bell could be attached to another post (could be metal) that fits inside the post. Then just insulate the inner pole that secures to the inner bell from the outer bells post/screw. It should be a tight fit. Then just screw up and down and wait for the sweet spot by testing the speed of the water boiling. Once the water boils instantly then that's the spot.

I personally will try to make or find a teflon screw and drill it open to make it a thick tube basically with threads on the outside. Then the inner bell will be attached permanently to a metal rod that fits tightly in the drilled out teflon screw. The outer bell would have a nut welded to it so it can be screwed up and down to find the right distance. I don't see it as a tuning to get this distance. The only things that are tuned as far as frequency is concerned are the 2 bells. The distance between the bells we can start as a guesstimate using the photos. It appears to be about a 1/4" but I would start close and wind out or the opposite. The right spot will cause instant boiling.

@ ramset:

I agree about the standing wave but I think this will all be easier by just trial and error. When the distance is found it will be apparent by the speed of the water boiling. The adjustment can be done easily using the screw method I wrote about above.

@ all:

This second tuning I think is what's confusing everyone because I don't think he is referring to tuning in the musical sense like he is with the bells. Peter(?) is saying tuning in the sense of tweaking and I imagine that is how he did it also, unless he was also a math genius and calculated the distance ;-)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: armagdn03 on May 15, 2008, 05:39:34 PM
The answer is seen in any stringed instrument, or tuning fork. For example, take 2 tuning forks of the same LENGTH and hit just one of them. Put that vibrating one near the other and the second one will start to vibrate also. You can also use a tuning fork of double the frequency and get the same effect. Take a guitar and strike the low E string (top string) without touching the others. Now stop the string you just stuck and listen to the high E (thinnest string) and it will be vibrating also even though it is at twice the frequency of the low E that you struck. Octaves (doubling or halving of the frequency demonstrates this the best. Take a wind chime and another wind chime exactly half the length of the first. Strike the bigger one and then put it near the one half it's length and then stop the big one from vibrating. The smaller one will be vibrating also even though it was never physically touched. All the same principle.

In this heater the electricity (mains) are oscillating at 50Hz. These bells Peter uses can't be 50Hz because they are too small. I guess them to be 800Hz or 1600Hz which are just octaves of 50Hz.

Someone here asked how to tune bells. Just like wind chimes, the smaller the bell the higher the frequency so start with something a little lower frequency than 1600Hz and then grind it down until you get to 1600Hz. If using 60Hz mains then the bells would need to be 1920Hz.

Then these bells will be vibrating in octave relation with the mains and you just need to adjust the distance between the two bells to find the sweet spot where the waves coming off each bell strike the other bell so as to not dampen IT'S vibration.

Same theory as to why you suspend a wind chime from a particular distance from the end so you hold it only on the node of the wave so you don't dampen the wave that is traveling up and down the wind chime.

Or think of it like two children swings but slow it down to visualize it. A swing (pendulum) will have a natural frequency determined by it's length. If you want to use the most minimal energy to continue the swing swinging then you need to push at the same frequency as this natural frequency of the swing.

With the 2 bells vibrating both at 1600Hz (in the case of 50Hz mains) and distanced from each other so the node of the waves strikes the opposite bell at exactly the right time and you make the water very hot very fast :-)

Ah, I love it when someone actually thinks a problem through instead of making guess work of the situation! Storre is correct, the beat frequency created by two frequencies of similar, but slightly different frequencies would be the most logical way to get ressonance out of such a small apparatus.

One "mystery" solved, now why the need for spacing?

Two possible answers, one the capacitance varies with distance, though I believe this is less likely the correct reason,
the other, that with varying distance, the physical position of peaks and nodes changes, for an example of why this is rather important lets take a look at a property called Thin Film Interference. you will all be familiar with this if you think of the differing colors in soap bubbles or an oil slick on water, both deal with varying distances between two surfaces.

Those in the know with optics will probably know of a property called thin film interference, which is taken advantage of in order make non reflective lenses. The premise is simple, if you have two separate layers, one glass and one your film, and say you want to cancel the blue end of the spectrum at 440nm for the wavelength, you will need to find a film that has the proper thickness to do so. So without going into the whole math of the situation, what you want happening is to have the  correct spacing between the top of the film and the top of the glass, if done correctly, you will have the peak of the reflection off of the glass being 180 degrees out of phase with the trough reflecting off of the film, when you do this, you get cancellation, and you see no reflection in the blue end of the spectrum for a particular wavelength of light.

An example can be found easily on the web
http://physics.bu.edu/py106/notes/Thinfilm.html

so what use is this? well, if you were to space it correctly you would have constructive wave interference rather than destructive, you would have peak meet peak, and you would have amplification, and if this amplification occurs at the beat frequency of the bells (In acoustics, a beat is an interference between two sounds of slightly different frequencies, perceived as periodic variations in volume whose rate is the difference between the two frequencies) then you have yourself a water boiling device.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 15, 2008, 05:46:07 PM
Storre so the bells have a known resonance? then you tune [with the screw ] SWEET!! nice idea     Chet  PS what is the mains[HTZ] where you live
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 15, 2008, 05:47:30 PM
Ah, I love it when someone actually thinks a problem through instead of making guess work of the situation! Storre is correct, the beat frequency created by two frequencies of similar, but slightly different frequencies would be the most logical way to get ressonance out of such a small apparatus.

One "mystery" solved, now why the need for spacing?

Two possible answers, one the capacitance varies with distance, though I believe this is less likely the correct reason,
the other, that with varying distance, the physical position of peaks and nodes changes, for an example of why this is rather important lets take a look at a property called Thin Film Interference. you will all be familiar with this if you think of the differing colors in soap bubbles or an oil slick on water, both deal with varying distances between two surfaces.

Those in the know with optics will probably know of a property called thin film interference, which is taken advantage of in order make non reflective lenses. The premise is simple, if you have two separate layers, one glass and one your film, and say you want to cancel the blue end of the spectrum at 440nm for the wavelength, you will need to find a film that has the proper thickness to do so. So without going into the whole math of the situation, what you want happening is to have the  correct spacing between the top of the film and the top of the glass, if done correctly, you will have the peak of the reflection off of the glass being 180 degrees out of phase with the trough reflecting off of the film, when you do this, you get cancellation, and you see no reflection in the blue end of the spectrum for a particular wavelength of light.

An example can be found easily on the web
http://physics.bu.edu/py106/notes/Thinfilm.html

so what use is this? well, if you were to space it correctly you would have constructive wave interference rather than destructive, you would have peak meet peak, and you would have amplification, and if this amplification occurs at the beat frequency of the bells (In acoustics, a beat is an interference between two sounds of slightly different frequencies, perceived as periodic variations in volume whose rate is the difference between the two frequencies) then you have yourself a water boiling device.

Good explanation of the spacing. I couldn't figure out how to explain it. The best analogy I could come up with was to image to pendulums (our 2 bells).

If they are both exactly the same frequency and kept at that frequency by a common pusher (the mains) then the 2 pendulums positioned like such \/ at one position and /\ at the other position need to be spaced so they exactly hit each other at the node or zero energy point. If they are two close then they will start to dampen the others movement and if they are too far apart they might have weaker effect. Of course we are talking about the waves propagating through the water but waves all have a length that is dependent on it's frequency so it has to be a set distance or at least a set possible few distances since the waves would be very small and you could choose another node.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 15, 2008, 05:50:54 PM
Storre so the bells have a known resonance? then you tune [with the screw ] SWEET!! nice idea     Chet  PS what is the mains[HTZ] where you live

60Hz - Yes every bell, tube has a set frequency that is totally determined by it's size. Make it shorter and the frequency will go up so start with something a little larger than you need and test the frequency, grind a little and retest until it's perfect. I'm sure Peter did it by ear. It's so easy if you have any sort of musical ear.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Nali2001 on May 15, 2008, 07:51:22 PM
Well I might be able to give some points out. Most of this stuff I learned from contact with Jan Pajak who had an active contact with Davey.
Anyway the 'inner' dome is indeed smaller. And the spacing is kinda around 4mm between each dome. But that is not so key, since it is different in every system due to the frequency distance tuning. One aspect also it that only ONE dome is actually ?tuned? to 50hz (well not really, since it is a harmonic of 50hz actually) not both. The second dome is more of a 'reflector' for the 'waves' same as the walls in your bathroom. Another thing is that the dome is not tuned to 50 hz but to a harmonic of that 50 hz. This is because it is impossible to realistically make a bell that small that has a self resonance of 50 hz. It has to be so hyper thin that it is highly impractical. I have checked this with a bell making company. I asked them if they could make a 50mm diameter dome bell with a 50hz self resonant frequency. They told me that it ?could be done? but  indeed that it then needs be  so thin that it can only be made of titanium to give it any strength at all. So in the Davey heater the dome is far above 1000hz probably, but tuned (sanded down) to a matching harmonic of 50hz. And after all that you need to fine tune the distance between each dome while in operation.

Domes can be made by spinning a sheet of metal on the lathe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwrk0SwDJhI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwrk0SwDJhI)

Steven
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 15, 2008, 08:58:53 PM
Well I might be able to give some points out. Most of this stuff I learned from contact with Jan Pajak who had an active contact with Davey.
Anyway the 'inner' dome is indeed smaller. And the spacing is kinda around 4mm between each dome. But that is not so key, since it is different in every system due to the frequency distance tuning. One aspect also it that only ONE dome is actually ?tuned? to 50hz (well not really, since it is a harmonic of 50hz actually) not both. The second dome is more of a 'reflector' for the 'waves' same as the walls in your bathroom. Another thing is that the dome is not tuned to 50 hz but to a harmonic of that 50 hz. This is because it is impossible to realistically make a bell that small that has a self resonance of 50 hz. It has to be so hyper thin that it is highly impractical. I have checked this with a bell making company. I asked them if they could make a 50mm diameter dome bell with a 50hz self resonant frequency. They told me that it ?could be done? but  indeed that it then needs be  so thin that it can only be made of titanium to give it any strength at all. So in the Davey heater the dome is far above 1000hz probably, but tuned (sanded down) to a matching harmonic of 50hz. And after all that you need to fine tune the distance between each dome while in operation.

Domes can be made by spinning a sheet of metal on the lathe:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwrk0SwDJhI (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwrk0SwDJhI)

Steven

Good to find out the inner bell is just a reflector. I wonder why he made it longer in the few pictures I've seen. That is what made me think it was the same frequency but knowing it's just a reflector simplifies it and also means it will probably work just as well with the phase on the outer bell and neutral on the inner so as not to need 110v on each phase. We have that here (same type as the use in NZ) so if necessary I can put a 110v on each bell but most of my house is just wired 110v/0v

Thanks for the video link. I'm wondering what using stainless steel will make. It's easier than getting brass where I am.

Once I get this working with the size bell he used, it will be interesting to make one with the next harmonic octave. His bells I think are 1600Hz so the next size bigger would be 800Hz and might be more efficient for larger quantities of water.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NewAge on May 15, 2008, 09:14:32 PM
I wonder if it is possible to calculate the exact size of the bell so that it matches the 50Hz?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 15, 2008, 09:24:13 PM
I wonder if it is possible to calculate the exact size of the bell so that it matches the 50Hz?

Yes technically but I think it will be more feasible to just make it a little bigger and then grind it down. Should be easy to grind down a small soft metal bell like he is using. I think the frequency needs to be dead on to be the most efficient. Once you make one and grind it down then each subsequent bell you could make a little closer to the final size so you have less adjustments to make.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Nali2001 on May 15, 2008, 10:08:58 PM
Hi again,
Well there is one thing that I am not sure about since I did never ask Jan Pajak.
And that is WHICH dome is actually tuned? The inner or outer, and does it matter at all? I think the inner is the tuned one. But since Pajak is a very friendly guy you might as well ask him yourself some questions. Maybe he had some contact with Davey lately. It been like 3 years ago when I had my conversation with Pajak. So maybe he knows some new things.

One other thing, and keep in mind I don't intent in any way to bring Davey?s insight down. But this thing is not rocket science and one should not spend too much time 'analyzing' his pictures and wonder why this and that. He very likely did never made a single dome himself. He just uses dome shapes like the bells from bicycle old bells and clock bells.
http://uk.geocities.com/brettoliver@btinternet.com/images/Masterclock/Chimebell2.jpg (http://uk.geocities.com/brettoliver@btinternet.com/images/Masterclock/Chimebell2.jpg)
http://libizblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/fire-bell-alarm-clock-1.jpg (http://libizblog.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/fire-bell-alarm-clock-1.jpg)
http://img.alibaba.com/photo/50969516/Bell_Alarm_Clock.jpg (http://img.alibaba.com/photo/50969516/Bell_Alarm_Clock.jpg)

And stuff like that. And it is doubtful that there are any formula's formed by him to predict various behaviors. It is a hands on thing. Get two bells try to tune one to 50 hz harmonics. See it it responds to the sound of a nearby played 50hz source. Or get a frequency generator program and do a frequency sweep while holding the dome near the speaker or something. And to tune just sand the dome shorter and check for freq. again. Keep also in mind that the freq. of the dome is also depending on the structure it is attached to. So tuning the dome free hanging from a cable or something and then bolting it down to a handle is not smart. The thing must be tuned while connected to the structure  it is supposed to be on in the long run.

Regards,
Steven
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 16, 2008, 12:09:11 AM
@ devrimogun:

As you said the tuning of the 2 bells should be easy. I know I can do it by ear because I've done a lot of piano tuning but it could be done using a computer or other device. The other parameter is the distance between the 2 bells. My feeling is that it just needs to be at a distance such that the node of the vibrations coming off the bells hit the opposite bell with the node of the wave. I think though it would be much easier to just mount the upper bell on a post that is a screw and fix a nut on the top bell. This way you could wind up and down the outer bell and change the distance in a very controlled way. Just wind up to increase the distance between the bells and wind down to decrease. Finer thread on the screw would make for finder adjustments. The screw would either have to be non metal or if using a metal post/screw then it would have to be hollow so the inner bell could be attached to another post (could be metal) that fits inside the post. Then just insulate the inner pole that secures to the inner bell from the outer bells post/screw. It should be a tight fit. Then just screw up and down and wait for the sweet spot by testing the speed of the water boiling. Once the water boils instantly then that's the spot.

I personally will try to make or find a teflon screw and drill it open to make it a thick tube basically with threads on the outside. Then the inner bell will be attached permanently to a metal rod that fits tightly in the drilled out teflon screw. The outer bell would have a nut welded to it so it can be screwed up and down to find the right distance. I don't see it as a tuning to get this distance. The only things that are tuned as far as frequency is concerned are the 2 bells. The distance between the bells we can start as a guesstimate using the photos. It appears to be about a 1/4" but I would start close and wind out or the opposite. The right spot will cause instant boiling.


@storre I really do not think that you should deal with all those details like teflon etc. Remember that if something works it will work in many different ways. We now know almost everything about this device. Just put together the same stuff that Davey did all simple materials screws and washers. BTW I also think that the tuned one is the inner one from what I read at the mentioned sites above.

I also agree with you to try a larger set of bells for larger amounts of water but hey; do you realize what a successful replication of a basic  setup means already?

Maybe I can find bell company around here ;)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: hartiberlin on May 16, 2008, 12:24:58 AM
Yes technically but I think it will be more feasible to just make it a little bigger and then grind it down. Should be easy to grind down a small soft metal bell like he is using. I think the frequency needs to be dead on to be the most efficient. Once you make one and grind it down then each subsequent bell you could make a little closer to the final size so you have less adjustments to make.

Hmm,
I guess it might be easier to buy 2 stainless steel salat bowls and
hook them next to each other maybe a few millimeters away ( the distnace depends on the
wavelength of the resonance frequency in water probably....)
and then pulse this thing with the resonance frequency via a MOSFET circuit...
Then you can also add a big choke as the inductance L component,
so you have a real LC circuit.
Then just tune to the resonance frequency and pulse it at this frequency.
then adjust the distance of the 2 bowls and retune for optimum
resonance frequency and watch the water temperature...

Maybe someone can do this,as I am busy right now
with other things as WM2D simulations..
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 16, 2008, 12:30:34 AM
The Amish make bells maybe I could order a set from Mr Thrapp?    if the resonance is trapped between 2 bells there may not be a front or back   just a sender and bouncer     
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 16, 2008, 03:46:08 PM
@storre I really do not think that you should deal with all those details like teflon etc. Remember that if something works it will work in many different ways. We now know almost everything about this device. Just put together the same stuff that Davey did all simple materials screws and washers. BTW I also think that the tuned one is the inner one from what I read at the mentioned sites above.

I also agree with you to try a larger set of bells for larger amounts of water but hey; do you realize what a successful replication of a basic  setup means already?

Maybe I can find bell company around here ;)


The teflon is just a convience to isolate the two bells. It can be done with a drilled out metal bolt from the outer bell with another solid metal bolt going down the middle and connecting to the inner bowl. Of course in this situation an insulator will need to be around the inner bolt so as not to contact the drilled out bolt that is securing the outer bell.

About securing the bell so it doesn't dampen it's ring -- I think it's not that important because at the center of the bell there will be very little or no vibration. Same as with a hanging tube that is ringing. There is at least one point where the wave crosses the zero point and that is where any good wind chime will be secured. I have many wind chimes that I've built and even though you can arrive at this hang point by calculating it. I just ring the chime and slide my finger up and down. It's very obvious the point that has no vibration. It's where the wave is passing the zero energy point. Same holds true for a bell.

@hartiberlin:
I've thought about stainless steel also but they would still have to be sized so they ring at a octave harmonic of the mains and I think they need to be nested inside of each other. Well now that I think about it, they could be facing each other like NS did with his heater connected to the HV secondary on his earth battery. Thrapp talked about how you can feel the spot to know the distance they should be apart from each other. I think it's the same theory as the water heater is using. The waves need to bounce off something at just the right point in the wave crest. Now sure if that is at the zero point or the top of the wave where it would have the highest energy. I think trial and error will be the quickest way and leave it to the math wizards to come up with the wave calculations :)

[edit] I didn't read all of your post so yes if you create your own pulsing instead of using the ac frequency then we could use standard size bowls and ring them to get their frequency and then pulse at exactly that frequency (probably best) or an octave above or below the bowl frequency.

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: edelind on May 16, 2008, 03:55:17 PM
I'll just ordered my stainless steel spheres. I hope I'll be able to tune them.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 16, 2008, 03:58:13 PM
I'll just ordered my stainless steel spheres. I hope I'll be able to tune them.

You are saying you will tune the bowls or tune the pulsing like hartiberlin suggested?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 16, 2008, 04:39:11 PM
TUNE to what you have as  Stephan suggests     Or Thrapps device looked stainless? a dipole inside of 2 parabolas tune as Stephan says no hocus pocus just a heat sensor and play with frequency at close to what ever bowl size you chose if this is what is going on [resonance] Stephans idea can make any harmonic give these[Davies ]results   Chet
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 16, 2008, 05:13:10 PM
You are saying you will tune the bowls or tune the pulsing like hartiberlin suggested?
-----------------------------------
TUNE to what you have as  Stephan suggests     Or Thrapps device looked stainless? a dipole inside of 2 parabolas tune as Stephan says no hocus pocus just a heat sensor and play with frequency at close to what ever bowl size you chose if this is what is going on [resonance] Stephans idea can make any harmonic give these[Davies ]results   Chet

Friends please! Stefan might be technically right. But our first focus should be to replicate the original for which we have all the knowledge.
(I hope)
Once we have THE device then you could develop the alternative approaches.

Devrim
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 16, 2008, 05:22:55 PM
DEV well OK maybe a list of what we know about the original then ?  Chet  PS ESA where are you?[he knows a bunch about this]
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 16, 2008, 06:09:44 PM
DEV well OK maybe a list of what we know about the original then ?  Chet  PS ESA where are you?[he knows a bunch about this]

The Polish prof. describes the construction at http://www.totalizm.nazwa.pl/free_energy.htm
We have deducted the 2 tunings needed to bring it to an efficient COP.

Maybe I am wrong but the rest is upto a good builder.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 16, 2008, 06:27:56 PM
DEV I have seen this guy before seems even creepier now    even if hocus pocus is based in some fact I definitely don't want to go there    Davies built this 60 yrs ago with bike bells wingnuts  and chewing gum   if it needs hocus pocus  i'm, on a different page   its time to resonate @ Stephan could you post a circuit please   Chet  PS and what you feel required equipment should be on hand ?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 16, 2008, 06:41:44 PM
DEV I have seen this guy before seems even creepier now    even if hocus pocus is based in some fact I definitely don't want to go there    Davies built this 60 yrs ago with bike bells wingnuts  and chewing gum   if it needs hocus pocus  i'm, on a different page   its time to resonate @ Stephan could you post a circuit please   Chet  PS and what you feel required equipment should be on hand ?

"Davies built this 60 yrs ago with bike bells wingnuts  and chewing gum" thats exactly my point. You would be overkilling this if you attack it with frequency alternators etc. You would be getting on other problems that you can not foresee. Just a thought but remember, the more complex it is the more error prone it will be.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 16, 2008, 07:09:28 PM
DEV  OK I looked at polish docs page and saw no breakdown of the build no information of any kind besides illustration and 50 htz  did I miss something ?   Chet PS I believe in KISS
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 16, 2008, 07:21:53 PM
DEV  OK I looked at polish docs page and saw no breakdown of the build no information of any kind besides illustration and 50 htz  did I miss something ?   Chet PS I believe in KISS

OK. Look under "#B2. Design of the heater described here:"
also get the missing parts from http://www.rexresearch.com/davey/davey.htm look under "More on the Sonic Boiler"
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 16, 2008, 08:38:40 PM
Dev  OK  I looked lots Keely DR Polish LOTS this is what I think    you want to tune a bell /bowl to a mains frequency [something Davey said took decades to do ] I say pick a bowl /bell and make it resonate [with the standing wave bounce]if the anomaly occurs  then try to make it work on the mains Alot quicker than grinding bells    I absolutely cannot believe nobody has tried this yet    Chet
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: b0rg13 on May 16, 2008, 08:40:57 PM
im glad people are starting to look at this as well, it just seems so basic and simple device, it just needs a little understanding and then some tinkering.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NewAge on May 16, 2008, 09:07:26 PM
If the coin was 32 mm then these should be the approx sizes
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 16, 2008, 09:21:37 PM
NEWAGE your actual pic shows three half spheres      also the illustration #1[inside bell] seems to flatten out past the midway point   Chet
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 16, 2008, 09:30:32 PM
SO... the mains in NZ is 110 volts 50 htz  Davey used 2.5 amps  is this all correct?  Chet
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on May 16, 2008, 09:45:22 PM

@Devrimogun,

Thanks for your enlightening feeback (and your compliments  :P).
Actually, you opened my eyes : trying to build this Peter Davey's device more or
less randomly (as I did) and expecting to stumble upon any 'OU' behavior is
definitely not a good method... Success is here more a question of knowledge than
a question of craftsmanship...

As you stated, these things must be (doubly) tuned.

I have however, all the equipment (even some 'leftovers' of an old home studio) for
testing the cups. My old 1995's demo version of VWave should even be able to do
the trick... http://www.nicolasfournel.com/vwaves.htm (http://www.nicolasfournel.com/vwaves.htm)

BTW: this could be an half baked idea, why not:
- record the device with a sampler (an old AKAI S3000XL, for example? :)
- test the 'wave shape' and if OK
- give the device back his own looped 'wave shape' ?

(http://freenrg.info/Pic/AKAI_S3000xl.jpg)

So, as soon as I'm 're-motivated', I do some more tests.'

Best

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 16, 2008, 10:24:11 PM
DEV @Newage  what are his bells made from ?   Chet
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 16, 2008, 11:57:28 PM
DEV @Newage  what are his bells made from ?   Chet


Made of a sound inducing metal plate. :)
@newage thanks for the improved drawing. Is it exact?
The thing is in the open more or less. Remember my theory : "it will work in many different
ways" (unless it is a hoax). The experiment done by @Nerzsh (http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/calcul_sonette.html)
is a proof of this theory of mine.

I will be in France Paris until 23rd. My apologies but there are incredible people here anyway and I am sure that you will not miss my feedbacks. :P

Regards,
Devrim
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 17, 2008, 12:03:57 AM
@Devrimogun,

Thanks for your enlightening feeback (and your compliments  :P).
Actually, you opened my eyes : trying to build this Peter Davey's device more or
less randomly (as I did) and expecting to stumble upon any 'OU' behavior is
definitely not a good method... Success is here more a question of knowledge than
a question of craftsmanship...

As you stated, these things must be (doubly) tuned.

I have however, all the equipment (even some 'leftovers' of an old home studio) for
testing the cups. My old 1995's demo version of VWave should even be able to do
the trick... http://www.nicolasfournel.com/vwaves.htm (http://www.nicolasfournel.com/vwaves.htm)

BTW: this could be an half baked idea, why not:
- record the device with a sampler (an old AKAI S3000XL, for example? :)
- test the 'wave shape' and if OK
- give the device back his own looped 'wave shape' ?

(http://freenrg.info/Pic/AKAI_S3000xl.jpg)

So, as soon as I'm 're-motivated', I do some more tests.'

Best



And remember you still got COP 100% after converting electricity into sound and after that heating water with it.
Just get some bike bells and grind them into a multiple of 50Hz. like @storre proposes then find the distance on a
screw by trial and error.

I do not think it would take more then one weekend once you start with 2 suitable bells.

Salut :)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 17, 2008, 01:54:34 AM
NEWAGE your actual pic shows three half spheres      also the illustration #1[inside bell] seems to flatten out past the midway point   Chet

3 spheres? I only see 2.

Also doesn't matter if it's flatting out. It's just a bell. You could do the same thing with a cylinder and it's already been done in many H2O engines. If it rings, then it will do the trick. I think we are making this much too complicated. Making a bell that rings at 1600Hz is toooo simple! Grinding is tooooo easy! This device doesn't require any electronics! Doesn't require any math! Doesn't require much skill. Anybody that can tune a guitar by ear can make this device with a little trial and error! I love how these things were done in an age where complicated math and theory could not get in your way. Keely was a musician, Peter was a musician. Anyone that has turned up the sound in a house with things that rattle has to wonder why some things rattle and other things don't depending on the music! Take 2 tuning forks at the same frequency and see the magic of resonance by striking only one of them and watch while the other magically starts vibrating as well. Take 100 of them and strike one and watch the other 99 ring as well. Do the same with the first and last string of a guitar. This stuff has been in our face for centuries but only a few seem to see the power of resonance and understand how simple it is. Push a kid on a swing and we naturally know WHEN to push and when to not. We use electricity like a brute and pound away using unnecessary amperage. It's like pushing your kid on a swing but pushing like mad even when the swing is no where near the pusher! As above, so below! As in the macro as in the micro! :)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: b0rg13 on May 17, 2008, 02:02:14 AM
SO... the mains in NZ is 110 volts 50 htz  Davey used 2.5 amps  is this all correct?  Chet

the mains in nz are around 230 to 240v
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 17, 2008, 02:23:34 AM
Thanks Borg @ storre  why do you think this way [Tubes][pipes] [easy]  seems if this was the case it would be done [has it ]   Chet ps besides Davey
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 17, 2008, 08:17:06 AM
3 spheres? I only see 2.

Also doesn't matter if it's flatting out. It's just a bell. You could do the same thing with a cylinder and it's already been done in many H2O engines. If it rings, then it will do the trick. I think we are making this much too complicated. Making a bell that rings at 1600Hz is toooo simple! Grinding is tooooo easy! This device doesn't require any electronics! Doesn't require any math! Doesn't require much skill. Anybody that can tune a guitar by ear can make this device with a little trial and error! I love how these things were done in an age where complicated math and theory could not get in your way.

Last message before I leave. My point exactly! Lets not make these 2 bells complicated.
Look at @Nerzh's experiment (I gave the link above) he did not do any of the tunings and still
got a COP of 1.

Storre I think you are the closest to this. But start with suitable bells.
Good luck.

I just received an email from a company in Taiwan www.accesspro.com.tw
they sent me pictures of a product line they made (it is a spam)
the explanation they make is "special syntony sound box
This can be put on any surface and make the sound transmit by it."

There is a cylinder shaped one and a bell shaped one.
I am sure you will find it in their WEB site.
May be of use.

All the best.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 17, 2008, 12:58:11 PM
Thanks Borg @ storre  why do you think this way [Tubes][pipes] [easy]  seems if this was the case it would be done [has it ]   Chet ps besides Davey

I believe it has been done over 100 years ago by people that saw music and electronics intimately related. If you've seen the Peter Davey videos you can see he's done it also. Water does not boil that fast even with 220v. I've tried it and a cup of water using a coiled up wire across to 110v mains takes at least 30 seconds to boil. It's actually pulling 2000W to do that. We have to see electronics and music as the same field of study. They are the same in terms of resonance. I will use the guitar again as an example. Tune the first and last string so that they are EXACTLY in tune with each other. If you strike the lower E string strongly without touching the higher E string and then stop the lower E string from vibrating you will hear the higher E string vibrating even though it was never touched. If you then detune (even a little bit) one of the 2 E strings so they are not in resonance with each other, then the effect stops.

This outer (or inner?) bell has to be tuned exactly to a harmonic of the oscillation of the AC mains. Then the bell will serve as an amplifier to the oscillation of the mains frequency.

The same theory holds true with the example of a soprano singer breaking a china glass by hitting the exact frequency of the glass. Put water on your finger and slide around and around the rim until it rings and then play that frequency on a sound system at a high volume and you can shatter the glass. I also read stories about how Keeley could break a quartz rock into powder with a resonator and how Tesla could vibrate a building to destruct itself using a resonator. They both understood the same thing and then some?

I think someone here will make a working model very soon :)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 17, 2008, 02:34:11 PM
storre I was just told [EE]that pure sine waves[like the mains] have no harmonics is this possible  Chet
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 17, 2008, 09:25:56 PM
storre I was just told [EE]that pure sine waves[like the mains] have no harmonics is this possible  Chet

How can we have harmonic distortion in the a/c. I found many references to it. Here are a couple:

THIS:

Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) Standard 519 which defines allowable harmonic distortion at customer service entrances

AND THIS:

Harmonic Interferance

AC power is delivered throughout the distribution system at a fundamental frequency of 60 Hz. (50 Hz in Europe.) Harmonics are defined as, "integral multiples of the fundamental frequency." For instance, the 3rd harmonic frequency is 180 Hz, the 5th is 300 Hz, etc. In the US, the standard distribution system in commercial facilities is 208/120 wye. There are three phase wires and a neutral wire. The voltage between any two phase wires is 208, and the voltage between any single phase wire and the neutral wire is 120. All 120 volt loads are connected between a phase and neutral. When the loads on all three phases are balanced (the same fundamental current is flowing in each phase) the fundamental currents in the neutral cancel and the neutral wire carries no current. When computer loads and other loads using switched mode power supplies are connected, however, the situation changes.

Switch mode power supplies draw current in spikes, which requires the AC supply to provide harmonic currents. The largest harmonic current generated by the SMPS is the 3rd. The magnitude of this harmonic current can be as large or larger than the fundamental current. Also generated, in smaller amounts, are the 5th, 7th, and all other odd harmonic currents.

Like the fundamental current, most harmonic currents cancel out on the neutral wire. However, the 3rd harmonic current, instead of canceling, is additive in the neutral. Thus if each phase wire were carrying, in addition to fundamental current, 100 amps of 3rd harmonic current, the neutral wire could be carrying 300 amps of 3rd harmonic current. In many cases, neutral-wire current can exceed phase wire currents. This extra current provides no useful power to the loads. It simply reduces the capacity of the system to power more loads, and produces waste heat in all the wiring and switchgear. When the 3rd harmonic current returns to the transformer it is reflected into the transformer primary where it circulates in the delta winding until it is dissipated as heat. The result is overheated neutral wires, switchgear, and transformers. This can lead to failure of some part of the distribution system and, in the worst case, fires. In addition, waste heat in all parts of the system increases energy losses and results in higher electrical bills. 3rd harmonic currents can increase electrical costs by as much as 8%

And many other references about it.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-us&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=electricity+harmonic+fundamental&spell=1

http://www.utilitytrainingsolutions.com/courses/power-quality.html

Also I don't think we are dealing with a pure sine wave. Inductive motors create a lot of harmonic distortion.

So if you know your mains frequency and you want to vibrate an object that is shaped such that it has a natural frequency. Something like a bell shape or cylinder shape then it would make sense to make that object the correct size so it also vibrates at the same frequency as what is vibrating it. Just so it's not working against itself. The reason I think it causes the heating of the water is because the vibrations transmit off the bell much easier and stronger because it wants to vibrate at that frequency naturally because of it's size/shape.

Again if you want to push a pendulum so as to keep it constantly swinging but you can only do it by pushing it from one side and you can't adjust this rate of pushing then it would make sense to adjust the length of the pendulum so that it matches this pushing rate. The rate that it naturally swings at. Otherwise you will lose a lot of energy if you are pulsing faster or slower than this rate. So the frequency of the electricity is the pusher and the bell is the pendulum. They have to match exactly or be a *2 or /2 multiple of it or octave of it.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: b0rg13 on May 17, 2008, 11:27:52 PM
I believe it has been done over 100 years ago by people that saw music and electronics intimately related. If you've seen the Peter Davey videos you can see he's done it also. Water does not boil that fast even with 220v. I've tried it and a cup of water using a coiled up wire across to 110v mains takes at least 30 seconds to boil. It's actually pulling 2000W to do that. We have to see electronics and music as the same field of study. They are the same in terms of resonance. I will use the guitar again as an example. Tune the first and last string so that they are EXACTLY in tune with each other. If you strike the lower E string strongly without touching the higher E string and then stop the lower E string from vibrating you will hear the higher E string vibrating even though it was never touched. If you then detune (even a little bit) one of the 2 E strings so they are not in resonance with each other, then the effect stops.

This outer (or inner?) bell has to be tuned exactly to a harmonic of the oscillation of the AC mains. Then the bell will serve as an amplifier to the oscillation of the mains frequency.

The same theory holds true with the example of a soprano singer breaking a china glass by hitting the exact frequency of the glass. Put water on your finger and slide around and around the rim until it rings and then play that frequency on a sound system at a high volume and you can shatter the glass. I also read stories about how Keeley could break a quartz rock into powder with a resonator and how Tesla could vibrate a building to destruct itself using a resonator. They both understood the same thing and then some?

I think someone here will make a working model very soon :)

this seems like a good simple summery :), i wonder how many shapes and sizes and how big you can go, and just how much power they will draw., i would love to know how to tune a small pipe to say 50(what ever it is), and then tune another one to that first one, from then i should be able to heat water........( i wonder if you can play a sound down a tube from an mp3 player with the right freq have it work that way)..
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: AbbaRue on May 18, 2008, 06:54:59 AM
The room humidifier I have seen uses ultrasonic frequencies to vaporize water.
The water never boils, it stays cold.  The ultrasonic frequency just vibrates the water
so fast that it turns into a mist. 

As for this device, he makes tea with it so this is something totally different.
I have a suggestion, maybe someone can capture the video and try feeding it
through some software that isolates different frequencies.
Maybe we can get the frequency right off the video. IF google video doesn't filter out the frequency. 

Otherwise if someone could get to visit this fellow and bring a recorder with them,
maybe they could record the background frequency too.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: edelind on May 18, 2008, 09:19:32 AM
I have a suggestion, maybe someone can capture the video and try feeding it
through some software that isolates different frequencies.
Maybe we can get the frequency right off the video. IF google video doesn't filter out the frequency. 

Otherwise if someone could get to visit this fellow and bring a recorder with them,
maybe they could record the background frequency too.


You're missing the point. The frequency here is the 50 Hz of the main power line. Davey indeed uses the resonance, but by tunning the inside bell to the frequency he (we) already have for free. Of course, for a US device you need to make a 60 Hz resonating inner bell.

As far the outer bell, I am not sure if it must be tunned too, but the most important thing is to have the same shape and to find (by successive tests) the correct distance between the two bells, so the vibrations emitted by the inner one to reflect into the outer one and return back to it, in phase (i.e. making a stationary wave). This way an avalanche of resonance effect will occur and the energy transfered to water will rise suddenly and huge, with the same small input. This is the beauty of resonance!
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NewAge on May 18, 2008, 09:53:58 AM
OK, but why the resonating bell should be smaller. Can't they be of the same size?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: edelind on May 18, 2008, 10:00:28 AM
OK, but why the resonating bell should be smaller. Can't they be of the same size?

What do you mean? Same diameter?? If so, how do you want to place them? I think the inner bell should be smaller just because he must go inside the outer one... ;)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on May 19, 2008, 02:03:37 AM


Hi sharp minded OverUnity dot com guys,

Blowing my own horn:
Updated and roughly/vaguely translated into English:
http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/calcul_sonette.html
Should, of course, any of you being interested in it....

Best


Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 19, 2008, 03:12:35 PM
You're missing the point. The frequency here is the 50 Hz of the main power line. Davey indeed uses the resonance, but by tunning the inside bell to the frequency he (we) already have for free. Of course, for a US device you need to make a 60 Hz resonating inner bell.

As far the outer bell, I am not sure if it must be tunned too, but the most important thing is to have the same shape and to find (by successive tests) the correct distance between the two bells, so the vibrations emitted by the inner one to reflect into the outer one and return back to it, in phase (i.e. making a stationary wave). This way an avalanche of resonance effect will occur and the energy transfered to water will rise suddenly and huge, with the same small input. This is the beauty of resonance!

Exactly and don't forget it doesn't need to be the same frequency as the mains. It can be x2 or in the case of 50Hz mains, 100Hz, 200Hz, 400Hz, 800Hz, etc.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 19, 2008, 06:05:28 PM
Storre   how big {physical size   full wave} would a 1920 HTZ  bell be?  do you think it would be close to Thrapps ball {two bells together] ? Chet
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 19, 2008, 10:17:43 PM
Storre   how big {physical size   full wave} would a 1920 HTZ  bell be?  do you think it would be close to Thrapps ball {two bells together] ? Chet

My guess is it's a little bit bigger than the bells that are shown in many of the Peter Davey pictures on this thread. I haven't started to make one yet but if I did I would start by making one about 25% bigger than what I estimate to be in the pictures and then grind down from their until I get one of the multiples of 60Hz. Then building more bells could be done to get closer to the size so not much grinding is necessary.

I don't think it would be close to the thrapp spheres. He might be creating his own pulses and arrived at that size to heat a larger amount of water and to make it easier to build.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: edelind on May 20, 2008, 03:07:23 PM
@storre
Can you help me with a musician's opinion? Here's what I did: I got a bicycle bell and recorded its sound and analyzed with Audacity. I got 3 peak frequencies.
My idea was to apply one or more of those frequencies back to the bell and see how it behaves (I expected to resonate). Later I realized that it's better to play back its own sound. So I did it using some big speakers at a very high sound volume. But, surprisingly for me, it just didn't do anything at all. I tried with the individual peek frequencies too and also with a close range of vibrations, but still nothing on the bell.
The plan was to get it first to resonate to something at all and later bring it to the desired frequency (50Hz octave).
So, what do you think: maybe it's the speakers that does not generate a proper vibration? Maybe the sound from a true musical instrument is better to make a bell vibrate? Please share your opinion on this.

Thank you.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 20, 2008, 03:34:48 PM
@storre
Can you help me with a musician's opinion? Here's what I did: I got a bicycle bell and recorded its sound and analyzed with Audacity. I got 3 peak frequencies.
My idea was to apply one or more of those frequencies back to the bell and see how it behaves (I expected to resonate). Later I realized that it's better to play back its own sound. So I did it using some big speakers at a very high sound volume. But, surprisingly for me, it just didn't do anything at all. I tried with the individual peek frequencies too and also with a close range of vibrations, but still nothing on the bell.
The plan was to get it first to resonate to something at all and later bring it to the desired frequency (50Hz octave).
So, what do you think: maybe it's the speakers that does not generate a proper vibration? Maybe the sound from a true musical instrument is better to make a bell vibrate? Please share your opinion on this.

Thank you.

Cylinders, bells  and really all ringing things make their own harmonics but I've never tried to analyze them in a computer. It's what most people would hear as a timbre in the sound. I've always done it by ear by hearing what would be the root of the harmonic series. Maybe if you record it and post it up here I can listen and tell you what the frequency is. That (I think) is the frequency you want to be at an octave harmonic of your mains frequency. The other harmonics will be in the mains also but I think it's the main vibration we want because it will be the strongest. I could of course be completely wrong since I haven't started to experiment with this yet. :)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 20, 2008, 03:34:58 PM
Storre I was talking the actual total height top to bottom of the wave no harmonics full wave resonance how TALL would that sine wave be in the air[1920 htz]Thanks Chet
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 20, 2008, 03:49:34 PM
Storre I was talking the actual total height top to bottom of the wave no harmonics full wave resonance how TALL would that sine wave be in the air[1920 htz]Thanks Chet

I really have no idea but I think tallness of the wave would refer to the amplitude, not the frequency. You might be looking for the width of the wave but personally I'm not going to try and calculate it when I make one because I'm pretty sure Peter didn't do that and trial and error is a lot faster than calculations. If you design the inner rod that is connected to the inner bell then you can put a nut on the top of this inner rod and slightly screw towards the bell or away from it to vary the distance between tests. Even a 1/4 turn on the nut would be a very fine adjustment I think. Just put some glasses of water and test how long it takes the water to boil or get to a certain temperature and then screw in our out 1/4 turn and test another glass.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: edelind on May 20, 2008, 03:54:11 PM
Cylinders, bells  and really all ringing things make their own harmonics but I've never tried to analyze them in a computer. It's what most people would hear as a timbre in the sound. I've always done it by ear by hearing what would be the root of the harmonic series. Maybe if you record it and post it up here I can listen and tell you what the frequency is. That (I think) is the frequency you want to be at an octave harmonic of your mains frequency. The other harmonics will be in the mains also but I think it's the main vibration we want because it will be the strongest. I could of course be completely wrong since I haven't started to experiment with this yet. :)

Here is the recorded sound:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get65

And attached here is the spectrum analysis from Audacity.
As you can see, it sees 3 first peeks at: 1619-1624Hz, 4165Hz and 7150Hz. So the main frequency seems to be 1620Hz (but it does not resonate on that emitted from speakers). I am really curious what you hear too.

Thanks
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 20, 2008, 07:06:01 PM
It's a G but a little sharp. 1620Hz more or less If you are using 60Hz mains then you need to make the bell a little larger to get to 1920Hz. If you are using 50Hz mains then it needs to be 1600Hz so you would be very close and would just need to grind it down to get to 1600Hz.

If you want to test it to see if it works the way it is (1620Hz) then generate a loud frequency at 50.6Hz and move up a little up and down from that until the bell rings by itself after turning off the sound. You could also try 810, 405, 202, 101. If none of those produce a ring in the bell then slide up and down the frequency range until you find what rings it. Something else that just came to mind so you could do it visually is to suspend it (careful that you suspend it without hindering it's vibrations) and let the very end of the bell touch a bowl of water. Then maybe when you hit the right Hz with your oscillator it should show up in the water as vibrations. Just a guess but worth a try.

Something that I've never understood exactly is why Thrapp and Keeley talk about tuning to the dominant. The 5th is a very strong harmonic so it may be that we have to work with the 5th harmonic instead of the octave harmonic.

What size is this bell approximately? Near the size of the pictures of Davey's bell?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: edelind on May 20, 2008, 07:27:30 PM
Thank you for the suggestions. I will test further and let you know (I have 50Hz here ;) )

Regarding the 5th harmonic, I honestly does not know what this is exactly (maybe you brief us). My knowledge about resonance came not from music, but from self developing traditional theories. As our ancestors knew, everything is based on resonance in this Universe and works by getting energy from it when resonating. Following this theories, the human being is the most advanced OU device (when he resonates at his peeks, huge quantities of energy is drawn from the Universe into the inner being, making miracles possible). Anyway, my point is that all of those traditional (meaning old and proved) theories mostly use octave harmonic for getting resonance outside the base frequency. Maybe this is just the way things work. See some complex theory regarding octave harmonic, the law of 7 and the music at Gurdjieff.

The size of my bell is about 5-6cm (aprox. 2 inches) (almost identical with this one - using only the top cover: http://www.amazon.com/Dimension-Classic-Bicycle-Crown-Emblem/dp/B000WW206S )
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: epeirce on May 20, 2008, 09:55:23 PM
hello,
first time poster here.
as a musician, this topic really grabbed my interest. yes, if you tune your guitar properly, your low E string will make your high E string vibrate. it is two octaves higher. the b string will also vibrate and also the A string. this is what makes acoustic instruments sound so beautiful. but there is a couple things to consider:
 
1. on the guitar, the harmonics get more sharply out of tune as you move down the neck towards the nut. if you tune a piano, which has a much bigger range than piano, you don't tune the octaves exactly. in other words, your A above A 440 is not tuned 880. you tune it a little sharp. and as you work your way up the keyboard each note is tuned a little more sharper than the last. so...do we want the bells tuned exactly one or more octaves up or down or do we tune our bells like a piano? do we need to tune them to each other at all?

2. is 50hz a magic number for water? will 60hz do the same thing here in the states?

thanks,
e

 
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 20, 2008, 11:03:34 PM
hello,
first time poster here.
as a musician, this topic really grabbed my interest. yes, if you tune your guitar properly, your low E string will make your high E string vibrate. it is two octaves higher. the b string will also vibrate and also the A string. this is what makes acoustic instruments sound so beautiful. but there is a couple things to consider:
 
1. on the guitar, the harmonics get more sharply out of tune as you move down the neck towards the nut. if you tune a piano, which has a much bigger range than piano, you don't tune the octaves exactly. in other words, your A above A 440 is not tuned 880. you tune it a little sharp. and as you work your way up the keyboard each note is tuned a little more sharper than the last. so...do we want the bells tuned exactly one or more octaves up or down or do we tune our bells like a piano? do we need to tune them to each other at all?

2. is 50hz a magic number for water? will 60hz do the same thing here in the states?

thanks,
e

 

One problem with the piano is it's designed to play in 12 keys so the intervals are not exactly according to perfect ratios unless you use 'just' tuning which a piano doesn't. I think this is partly why they stretch tune it. I also use to tune pianos and it's done this way to make the harmonics more harmonious I guess. It would just sound richer when tuned correctly but I think it's all a set of compromises to allow an instrument to play in all 12 keys. I think people's ears have mostly gotten use to it and I've wondered if some players compensate for it when playing solo or with a few other instruments that can be played in a more 'just' type of tuning such as fretless string instruments or wind instruments that have flexible tuning. Well getting off topic here a little but I think we need to just test these bells with the objective to get them to ring when hit with a lower frequency that I think is on octave harmonic but something I haven't confirmed yet with testing. As you say, it works clearly with pianos and guitars and for my ear it works best when they are exactly in tune either in unison or octaves. The second string seems to ring louder that closer it is in tune to the first string.

I don't think 50Hz is a magic number for water but I think the electricity connected to the bells needs to be in a frequency that some how matches the natural frequency of the bell. So far we are assuming that it's an octave relation since his bells seem to be 1600Hz or the 5th octave of 50Hz but there could be more to it than this. Maybe 50Hz will connect with another upper frequency/different harmonic better. Maybe something to what we keep hearing Keeley and Thrapp say "tuned to the dominant". I know the dominant chord in music really strongly pulls to the tonic or root of the song so maybe that is our ears way of hearing what might be a strong attraction of the 5th/dominant harmonic to the root.

What I plan to do when I get my bells is start testing as if it's an octave relation but if it doesn't work then I will try them all until one causes it to ring the loudest and then try to figure out what the ratio is between the two frequencies. Then we can make it work at any mains frequency or any frequency if you want to generate your own via electronics.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on May 21, 2008, 01:36:03 AM


Hi Edelind (and others witty people).

Thanks for your experiments and for your .wav file.

I was Just wondering:
Giving back the bell his own 'sound' (= set of frequencies) is, perhaps,  not a so good idea.

Actually, you give it back the sound you would get when you play a guitar with a plectrum.
Please think about the 'Hawaiian Steel Guitar' versus Hard Rock Guitar.

The freqs could (should) be the same but not the 'Attack Decay Sustain Release'.
This ADSR is a very important part of any sound. I used to compose acousmatic music.
When AC plugged this bell is not so harshly solicited.

Best
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on May 21, 2008, 04:46:16 PM
Is 50hz a magic number for water? will 60hz do the same thing here in the states?
thanks,
e
You must tune to whatever frequency YOUR electricity runs at. Yes, 60 hz.
(or 120, 240, 480 etc.). A bicycle bell runs at near the 480 mark.

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: resonanceman on May 22, 2008, 02:13:33 AM


As far the outer bell, I am not sure if it must be tunned too, but the most important thing is to have the same shape and to find (by successive tests) the correct distance between the two bells, so the vibrations emitted by the inner one to reflect into the outer one and return back to it, in phase (i.e. making a stationary wave). This way an avalanche of resonance effect will occur and the energy transfered to water will rise suddenly and huge, with the same small input. This is the beauty of resonance!


Edelind

I like the  idea  of   the cone shaped  bells

I know that they  will not ring as long .........but  they  may  work better  over all in spite of not  ringing as well

getting the  space  between the  rounded  bells  right   is a very big job .

The mouth of the bells stay the same  distance   apart,   only the  distance  at the centers  changes  .
To truly   adjust  the  distance   the bells are apart   while keeping the  distance  between the walls   the same you  would need  a new bell made for each  test . 

Also  ..... with  round bells   you  will always be  working  with harmonics  between the  different sized  bells .   
Cone shaped bells   could  all be tuned to the  exact same  frequency 




I also  question  if  tuning  the  sound   of the bell ringing  will help .       I don't think it will ring  the same  under water .     It is  clear  from the videos  that   it  doesn't make an audible  ringing  sound .

gary
Title: End of guessing - here's the original Davey's patent
Post by: NewAge on May 22, 2008, 08:49:28 AM
Here's the original patent of the "Elecrtical Immersion Heater": http://archive.beinsa.info/Heating/92428.pdf
It looks quite different than the bysicle bell design and reminds me somehow the Stanley design or a Joe cell.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: edelind on May 22, 2008, 01:17:19 PM

Edelind

I like the  idea  of   the cone shaped  bells

I know that they  will not ring as long .........but  they  may  work better  over all in spite of not  ringing as well

getting the  space  between the  rounded  bells  right   is a very big job .

The mouth of the bells stay the same  distance   apart,   only the  distance  at the centers  changes  .
To truly   adjust  the  distance   the bells are apart   while keeping the  distance  between the walls   the same you  would need  a new bell made for each  test . 

Also  ..... with  round bells   you  will always be  working  with harmonics  between the  different sized  bells .   
Cone shaped bells   could  all be tuned to the  exact same  frequency 




I also  question  if  tuning  the  sound   of the bell ringing  will help .       I don't think it will ring  the same  under water .     It is  clear  from the videos  that   it  doesn't make an audible  ringing  sound .

gary

Yes, I know what you are saying. I am also aware of the fact that changing the distance between two rounded bells will generate different distances between their walls. But I hope that for small distances this effect to be small enough to allow an acceptable quantities of stationary waves. I am still waiting for my stainless steel spheres to start testing (I will cut them in half, not testing with spheres, like in the last Davey video).

Still, I think cone shaped bell it's an interesting idea and may be indeed a step further, along with all the advantages you already mentioned.

Regarding the sound in the movie, I think it's normal that there is none, as the heater is only made to vibrate when inserted into water. And the vibration energy is completelly transformed into heat, so there is nothing to be heard (and even with a speaker, 50Hz is rather difficult to hear and I doubt that a such poor quality video will ever make such sound audible). We only use the sound to calibrate the inner bell.

Also, a final thought, the resonance of the bell is only a matter of its shape and of its internal composition, not of the surrounding medium. The medium will only tell how the vibration propagates (or is used). For example, here the vibration is converted to heat (brownian move), in air it may be heard as a sound, and when placing a finger on it, it will be transfered to the finger.  But the bell will still resonate as his own frequency, even poor. And I remember that Davey said that with the heater you can heat ANY type of liquid, so it's obvious that the liquid does not change the resonating frequency of the heater.

@NewAge Thank you for that patent. I'll check it too as soon as possible.
Title: Re: End of guessing - here's the original Davey's patent
Post by: resonanceman on May 22, 2008, 05:15:06 PM
Here's the original patent of the "Elecrtical Immersion Heater": http://archive.beinsa.info/Heating/92428.pdf
It looks quite different than the bysicle bell design and reminds me somehow the Stanley design or a Joe cell.

NewAge

Thanks for  the patent link

I havn't read it yet, but   you are right     it does  look like a Joe  cell


gary
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: resonanceman on May 22, 2008, 05:46:54 PM
Yes, I know what you are saying. I am also aware of the fact that changing the distance between two rounded bells will generate different distances between their walls. But I hope that for small distances this effect to be small enough to allow an acceptable quantities of stationary waves. I am still waiting for my stainless steel spheres to start testing (I will cut them in half, not testing with spheres, like in the last Davey video).

Still, I think cone shaped bell it's an interesting idea and may be indeed a step further, along with all the advantages you already mentioned.

Regarding the sound in the movie, I think it's normal that there is none, as the heater is only made to vibrate when inserted into water. And the vibration energy is completelly transformed into heat, so there is nothing to be heard (and even with a speaker, 50Hz is rather difficult to hear and I doubt that a such poor quality video will ever make such sound audible). We only use the sound to calibrate the inner bell.

Also, a final thought, the resonance of the bell is only a matter of its shape and of its internal composition, not of the surrounding medium. The medium will only tell how the vibration propagates (or is used). For example, here the vibration is converted to heat (brownian move), in air it may be heard as a sound, and when placing a finger on it, it will be transfered to the finger.  But the bell will still resonate as his own frequency, even poor. And I remember that Davey said that with the heater you can heat ANY type of liquid, so it's obvious that the liquid does not change the resonating frequency of the heater.

@NewAge Thank you for that patent. I'll check it too as soon as possible.

Edelind

Good luck with   your  stainless spheres.

:)

Personally  I  don't think it  is physical ringing  ......I think  electrical  resonance is more likely to  do the trick.

Your   belief  that the bell will ring the same under water  is interesting .
I agree that  it will still resonate at the  same frequency , but I think the  water would have a very strong dampening effect  .
Anyone out there have a bell and a swimming  pool?
If  you are right   a person should  be able  to ring the bell  under water  and  not hear it from  above the water . 
They  would also  be able to hear  it  if  they  are under water .



As far  as this device  being able to heat ANY liquid ,   I  serously doubt that .   
So far everything   I know about has  some kind of exceptions .   Gravity  never stops ...........but things  still fly .
If  you had typed  this  statement  out  without  capatolising  the "any" I would have let  it go without commenting  .



gary
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NewAge on May 22, 2008, 08:18:42 PM
OK, let's move back a little bit. We know only about a bell shaped heater prototype. However now we have the patent and we see a "Joe Cell" type heater. So it is clear that he initially used bells but later on pefected the design with cylindrical tubes, as seen in the patent. Which makes sense, because the uniform tube shape is much easier to tune than a bell.

Now, back in the 40s he did not have much choice but go throuogh trial and error untill geting the tubes in resonance. Today we have computers and all kind of simulation softwares, so something tells me it's wiser to do the maths first and calculate the size and thickness of a device similar to the one on the patent instead of guessing. Anyone capable of doing this?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 22, 2008, 08:30:18 PM
OK, let's move back a little bit. We know only about a bell shaped heater prototype. However now we have the patent and we see a "Joe Cell" type heater. So it is clear that he initially used bells but later on pefected the design with cylindrical tubes, as seen in the patent. Which makes sense, because the uniform tube shape is much easier to tune than a bell.

Now, back in the 40s he did not have much choice but go throuogh trial and error untill geting the tubes in resonance. Today we have computers and all kind of simulation softwares, so something tells me it's wiser to do the maths first and calculate the size and thickness of a device similar to the one on the patent instead of guessing. Anyone capable of doing this?

Or we can have a race :) Computer against the rest of us ;) Either way we win :) Why in the videos of him laterly where he appears to be in his 90s does he have what seems like the 2 bell design type? Seems doing it with tubes would be easier to construct and tune. Does he have any other patents? Maybe earlier or later designs that would clue us in as to the key to getting it so efficient.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: resonanceman on May 22, 2008, 08:46:24 PM
OK, let's move back a little bit. We know only about a bell shaped heater prototype. However now we have the patent and we see a "Joe Cell" type heater. So it is clear that he initially used bells but later on pefected the design with cylindrical tubes, as seen in the patent. Which makes sense, because the uniform tube shape is much easier to tune than a bell.

Now, back in the 40s he did not have much choice but go throuogh trial and error untill geting the tubes in resonance. Today we have computers and all kind of simulation softwares, so something tells me it's wiser to do the maths first and calculate the size and thickness of a device similar to the one on the patent instead of guessing. Anyone capable of doing this?


I don't think that we can assume what he started with or what he ended up with .
If  in the 90s he only had a bell type device  handy   that is what he would use   for a video

If you look at the  patent .   the  tubes are held by there ends .
That is not the way that they would be held  if  physical resonance  was  what was doing the work .

For physical  resonace  the  tubes should  be held  about 1/3 of the way from the ends . ( from my  observations )




I do remember reading somewhere that   a capacitor made with tubes  can have over unity  effects .


gary
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: edelind on May 22, 2008, 08:48:39 PM
Or we can have a race :) Computer against the rest of us ;) Either way we win :) Why in the videos of him laterly where he appears to be in his 90s does he have what seems like the 2 bell design type? Seems doing it with tubes would be easier to construct and tune. Does he have any other patents? Maybe earlier or later designs that would clue us in as to the key to getting it so efficient.

That's my opinion too. The patent was accepted in 30 NOV 1950, and we saw a video with the inventor using a heater with semi-spherical bells when he is old (in fact the later model was using almost complete spheres). So I think the tubes were only a first version. I did not have time to read the patent yet, to see if it really the same invention (no offense).

In fact, as we all know, the native shape of an emitted vibration is spherical, so I think this is the best shape (maybe better than cones too, I don't know).
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NewAge on May 22, 2008, 09:59:12 PM

I don't think that we can assume what he started with or what he ended up with .
If  in the 90s he only had a bell type device  handy   that is what he would use   for a video

If you look at the  patent .   the  tubes are held by there ends .
That is not the way that they would be held  if  physical resonance  was  what was doing the work .

For physical  resonace  the  tubes should  be held  about 1/3 of the way from the ends . ( from my  observations )

I do remember reading somewhere that   a capacitor made with tubes  can have over unity  effects .


gary
You have not read the patent. He mentions clearly that the tubes are held loosely and vibrate: (page 7) - "circular electrodes concentrically arranged around the central electrode and held loosely in the casing", page 1 - "means for holding the circular electrodes so that they vibrate", page 5 - "electrodes may be separate and retained in place with rubber blocks, the resiliency of the rubber allowing a small movement of oscillation to take place"
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NewAge on May 22, 2008, 10:41:14 PM
Or we can have a race :) Computer against the rest of us ;) Either way we win :) Why in the videos of him laterly where he appears to be in his 90s does he have what seems like the 2 bell design type? Seems doing it with tubes would be easier to construct and tune. Does he have any other patents? Maybe earlier or later designs that would clue us in as to the key to getting it so efficient.
Anyway, it does not hurt to try the patented one, furthermore he gives some dimentions on page 4.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: edelind on May 23, 2008, 03:31:45 PM
While searching for some vibration knowledge, I found this page:
http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos.html

It helped me understand how this heater should (and how should not) work, especially this simulation:
http://www.kettering.edu/~drussell/Demos/SHO/mass-force.html
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 23, 2008, 10:21:03 PM
Anyway, it does not hurt to try the patented one, furthermore he gives some dimentions on page 4.


Hello I am back from Paris. Unfortunately I was not able to meet our friend NerzhDishual. His message arrived too late.

Normally patent rules are clear. Everything should be explained so that someone in the field should be able to
produce the product just by following the patent. Nevertheless, depending on how the patent owner or the lawyer is witty
you can still hide the ropes.

I say we stay with the spherical bells as we have the video, the drawing, some explanations, a successful test made by NerzhDishual and some very good elaborations and implications made by all of us. Also some are waiting for their spherical bells to arrive.

In case we get stuck we then go back to the patent.


Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 23, 2008, 11:03:47 PM
You're missing the point. The frequency here is the 50 Hz of the main power line. Davey indeed uses the resonance, but by tunning the inside bell to the frequency he (we) already have for free. Of course, for a US device you need to make a 60 Hz resonating inner bell.

As far the outer bell, I am not sure if it must be tunned too, but the most important thing is to have the same shape and to find (by successive tests) the correct distance between the two bells, so the vibrations emitted by the inner one to reflect into the outer one and return back to it, in phase (i.e. making a stationary wave). This way an avalanche of resonance effect will occur and the energy transfered to water will rise suddenly and huge, with the same small input. This is the beauty of resonance!


All of you seem to be very sure of what is happening here. It seems to be clear but I cannot help but think about what exactly is happening here when he connects a live wire to a bell? Vibrates? OK How? The electrical sine wave in the line is transferred into the bell?

Normally we hit the bells physically to make them vibrate to give sound. Someone here said no sound is heard in the video. What sound? How do we know that connecting a live wire to a bell would generate audible sound? Maybe the altitude of the wave is too low to be heard and maybe this is one of the things that makes this gadget work.

Remember that the expert in the video said that no one can explain how it works. But we seem to have an explanation. Maybe we should not be that certain of what we have. Still what we have -though doubtful, is good enough to give it some good tries.

Someone said the outer bell is just a wall and does not need to be tuned. I agree. Its in the explanations given by the Polish prof. as well.

Finally, I believe that it is the duty of this community to solve the secret of this simple thing.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 24, 2008, 12:06:53 AM
I went to the science museum very briefly while I was in Paris. There was a setup that was close to this topic that we are working on here.

I am enclosing 3 photos :
                                    1) Setup : A loudspeaker inside a plastic or glass tube. Both ends of the tube is closed. There is about 2 cm water in the tube. 2 knobs; one that cahnges the frequency the other the volume. (Almost all sounds are audible.)
                                    2) Closeup water : One of the shapes that the water inside takes when you find the "good" frequency and volume.
                                    3) Explanations : In French. I should let NerzhDishual to translate into English. But basically the wave goes to the end and then is reflected back from there. When you find the good frequencies you can get a stationary wave with a belly and a node. They took the idea from the works of the German scientist Auguste Kundt.

In this device the inside bell is the wave generator and they are reflected from the outer bell and we are getting the stationary wave and that transfers its energy to the water in the form of heat?

Also an observation: I took the lid of a porcelain butter keeper which is also porcelain. I hit it and it made a sound. There was no sound inside the lid, only outside.

Some people are going to Delhi India soon. I am thinking of getting some singing bells just in case as a backup to the coming experiments by some of you. Any recommendations about what specifications I should give them ?


Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on May 24, 2008, 12:24:27 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kundt%27s_tube

Notice it says "Then the adjustable end is moved until a loud sound is heard"

That is the point we will reach when the 2 bells are the right distance from each other. In the Kundt Tube he is making the tube longer or shorter with the piston.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NewAge on May 24, 2008, 09:11:34 AM
Hello I am back from Paris. Unfortunately I was not able to meet our friend NerzhDishual. His message arrived too late.

Normally patent rules are clear. Everything should be explained so that someone in the field should be able to
produce the product just by following the patent. Nevertheless, depending on how the patent owner or the lawyer is witty
you can still hide the ropes.

I say we stay with the spherical bells as we have the video, the drawing, some explanations, a successful test made by NerzhDishual and some very good elaborations and implications made by all of us. Also some are waiting for their spherical bells to arrive.

In case we get stuck we then go back to the patent.
If there is a succesfull replication of a spherical design, yes, we should try first with it. However there's something strange : I could not find ANY other patent under the name of Peted Davey even though I called up the patent office in NZ. So how come he perfected the bell design, and is been trying to put it in production for 50 years but did not patened it???
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 24, 2008, 11:56:52 AM
If there is a succesfull replication of a spherical design, yes, we should try first with it. However there's something strange : I could not find ANY other patent under the name of Peted Davey even though I called up the patent office in NZ. So how come he perfected the bell design, and is been trying to put it in production for 50 years but did not patened it???

Sometimes inventors prefer to hide the patents. It can be done by registering under another name, a cleverly hidden title etc. but in his case I believe what happened was that he never had the desire to register another patent. Patents are expensive and he has been fighting for long time and got weary and although he did not loose all hopes he probably did not want to spend money on another patent.

Some of the senior members here seem to have a lot of knowledge that can help but they do not show much interest in this topic.

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: b0rg13 on May 24, 2008, 12:37:31 PM
hi Devr , i think most of the people here that have all the good clues and stuff like a lab to test it in are busy looking for * over unity* and some crap little *thing* that boils water just dont matter,
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 24, 2008, 01:00:32 PM
As our ancestors knew, everything is based on resonance in this Universe and works by getting energy from it when resonating. Following this theories, the human being is the most advanced OU device (when he resonates at his peeks, huge quantities of energy is drawn from the Universe into the inner being, making miracles possible). Anyway, my point is that all of those traditional (meaning old and proved) theories mostly use octave harmonic for getting resonance outside the base frequency. Maybe this is just the way things work. See some complex theory regarding octave harmonic, the law of 7 and the music at Gurdjieff.


I agree totally. My research on spiritualism for the last 4 years gave the same result. You must resonate in harmony otherwise life comes onto you to correct your vibrations. Harder and harder until you understand that you must change somethings about you.

I need to point out another subject which is the octaves. Our universe (or dimension) has a certain octave range that we hear or see or handle. For example between "Fa" note and "Red" there are 40 octaves. When you tap onto the higher octaves you get the energy of the next universe (dimension).

Maybe this boiler is one setup that can generate higher octaves. I may be way off but please be gentle :)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on May 24, 2008, 01:05:10 PM
hi Devr , i think most of the people here that have all the good clues and stuff like a lab to test it in are busy looking for * over unity* and some crap little *thing* that boils water just dont matter,

Is that your opinion as well? What is your favorite topic?
My interest comes from how simple this thing is. We must
start from the simplest and build our experience from there
by taking baby steps.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: b0rg13 on May 25, 2008, 12:30:18 AM
Is that your opinion as well? What is your favorite topic?
My interest comes from how simple this thing is. We must
start from the simplest and build our experience from there
by taking baby steps.


no its not my personal opinion at all, just a guess from what ive seen from reading the OU forum here for the last two years and seeing the comments from to the big guys with all the stars and posts, my personal opinion about this device is that IT WORKS and should be looked into with GREAT care and being/looking like such a simple device makes it even better.

my other interests here at OU.com are the tpu and magnet pulse motors, im not looking for a device that puts out 50kw to run everything i own(house/car), i think something like this is a little way off, but something efficiant that can charge up some batteries and in turn that would be hooked up to a 3kw inverter and getting off the grid, im looking at simple working stuff that is proven to work already and adding a *charging edge* to it.

my personal idea is.....ill try and keep it short....here goes...

>>> a pulse/magnet motor that is powered by a car battery or two, the batteries would be partly charged by the magnet motor and also a solar panel array(this would switch on if the battery ran down), the motor would then be hooked up to a car alt/gen( ive seen this done on you-tube already) to then charge up a BIG main bank of batteries and that would then be hooked up to a 3kw inverter or even a higher ranked inverter depending on your power needs, you could probably step it down to use many many 12v things like a laptop computer/tv/fridge/etc , and leave the main 240v to power a heater if you had to,and for hot water using this peter davey device, then your off the grid, i cant see how to make it any more simple than this, AND its all working tech already, there is nothing fancy involved here at all that i have described<<<.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Nihilanth on May 28, 2008, 02:48:45 AM
Has anyone made any progress on this yet? I'm eager to try it, but I don't know where I could get bells that resonate at 60hz. I was thinking of visiting this bicycle shop near by because they might sell bicycle bells like what Peter Davey himself used, but once I'm there how do I determine the resonance frequency of the bells?

If this thing gets completed, then what are these good for, besides boiling water? Do you intend to use them to replace your water heater, or power things with a steam turbine?
Title: Bell tuning software
Post by: NewAge on June 04, 2008, 01:00:25 AM
Look what I found today:
http://www.hibberts.co.uk/wavanal.htm

"Four programs are available from this website. The most commonly used, Wavanal, is a program for anylsing the tuning of bells, using pre-recorded sounds or from a PC microphone. If you are new to bell analysis, this is the program you need. Rounds is a program for turning recordings of real bells rung singly into change ringing. I use this a lot in tuning experiments. Tuner is a spectrum analyser specifically designed to help with the tuning of bells. Finally, Pitcher is a simple utility for checking the pitch of bell sounds."
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 04, 2008, 01:16:43 AM
@all

...thought i'd better shuffle across to this thread (where's it been hiding?!) and see what's so intriguing that it's stopping my good friend NerzhDishual from helping me with a replication of a different electrical anomaly!  :P

actually, i think the single most amazing fact about this whole device here, is that it's inventor has not electrocuted himself before now!   

look at that water all over his work surfaces where he rests his three closely-joined metal electrodes, themselves covered in water, which are connected directly to the mains

you see, if you survive flying a Spitfire in wartime, the Universe has basically run out of threats to you!!

if you think Peter Davey's 'kettle' is cool - wait 'till you see his electric toothbrush  - ouch!  ;D


seriously, now...

i'm sure you're all going to do excellently well in getting something going here - whether or not i've got anything useful to contribute - so i'll just throw out a few observations from reading thro' the thread

as someone said - it's not rocket science (meaning, i think, there are few components) - something can be elegant & uncomplicated but still profound

so, not many parts - and therefore, everything which is there is probably there for a reason just of it's own


- why the outer sphere?

  the outer sphere is certainly an earth shield (this agrees with the patent) - but it could also act as a containment vessel for the water which is being heated to keep it within the heating area longer - the water will expand & bubble as heating occurs - this will tend to force the water out from between the electrodes. the sphere will help to circulate the heating water around the electrodes before steam pressure finally forces it out of the sphere

  the patent has an outer shell with either slits or holes at each end for the liquid to enter & leave


- why is there an extra, slightly-raised, circular 'plate' at the bottom of the sphere?

  it could just be a small heatsink/stand to avoid ruining his designer-kitchen worktop when he parks the device - but i believe it covers a vent which allows water to enter the sphere - do we have any proof?  well, if you look at the Photo below, you can see a dark 'Twister' in the water below the sphere

  boiling water & steam gets expelled at the top vent & colder water gets sucked in at the bottom vent


- is the sphere aluminium?

  a) i suspect not - i understand it is difficult, to say the least, to weld aluminium!
   as the Polish Prof(?) mentioned, the welding would appear to be too high a standard for Peter to have achieved without some hi-tech equipment
  b) in one of the photos you can see the sphere has been created by welding two half-spheres - again, difficult to do with aluminium - if there are some 'bells' inside he must have welded the sphere around them - could they just be a rod & tube inside the sphere perhaps?
  c) in one of the photos, the silver appearance of the bottom plate on the sphere appears to have worn away leaving a 'copper'-coloured patch


- what dictates the acoustic 'tuning' of a 'bell'?

  i just did my own kitchen experiment with an SS draining bowl - it seems to me that a 'bell' doesn't vibrate just on, say, the outside or just the inside - i believe it vibrates most strongly around the rim - if this is true it would be the length of circumference of the rim which is a major factor in the acoustic pitch of the 'bell'

  when vibrating, a standing wave would be setup along the rim - similar to that trick of running a wetted finger around the rim of a wine-glass - you don't rub your finger round the outside or the inside to get the strongest vibration

  i wouldn't claim to be a musician - but i do play the bass guitar (low E string ~ 41Hz) and i can verify that the acoustic tuning is determined by the length of the string(= rim circumference length of bell); and the thickness of the string (= mass of the bell); and the tension of the string (= bell material)

  you can make two strings which are the same length, but different thickness, play the same frequency note - but you have to change the tension


- is the acoustic tuning of the bell important?

  i'm going to 'go out on a limb' here and say no!

  HOWEVER...

  if you read the patent it is made pretty clear that the electrodes are left loose 'TO VIBRATE' (as has already been pointed out) - special grooves are left in the end-mountings to allow this

  the patent shows many concentric tubes - all different in diameter -  so i believe, although they are all shown as the same length, they will have different resonant frequencies because they all have different masses & circumference lengths

  yes, it may well be that the frequency of the mains causes vibration - but in the patent the central electrode is a rod, not a cylinder and no mention of it being free to vibrate - so that should mean it is the outer 'bell' not the inner one that has to be free to vibrate with the current

 the freedom to vibrate, however, was already a required element (oops, nearly a pun) of the heater design, before he changed over to bells - maybe there is some OU activity in this requirement?


- is the spacing critical? (ie. tuning the gap)

  not according to the patent - just vary the gap to suit the amount of heating required - especially if this is an inline water-flow heater (so we could expect: closer gap = lower water-path resistance = higher current)

  it's been mentioned in some reports that the spacing between the 'bells' has to be tuned for standing waves - for that to be true the frequencies involved would be approaching several-GigaHertz RF wavelengths (144MHz wavelength is around 2metres long!)


- is the device a capacitor?

  water has a high dielectric constant and can polarise strongly, which SHOULD make for a good capacitor - but because it has mobile ions present it is also a good conductor - so, it would be a very 'leaky' capacitor (got to be a pun in there somewhere!)

  H Aspden has a few interesting things to say about concentric capacitors gaining energy from the aether, so i wouldn't rule out some kind of aether resonance - but i doubt that we have to worry about grinding down bells to 'tune' it - the patent just says that the electrodes should be 'free to move from side to side as electric current passes from liquid'

  Davey's patent shows one central rod, 4 alternate live/neutral electrodes, and 1 outer earth cylinder but he says that any number of electrodes can be used (brass or plated brass in the patent's examples)


so, my take on this is that you guys can go straight-ahead & make some concentric bells / cyclinders / cones - just allow some of them to be loosely connected (physically); but they still need to make good electrical connection

interestingly, there's no mention anywhere in the Patent of power-in, current draw, or efficiency levels - the claim is that it heats rapidly and that the whole volume of liquid circulates by convection (ie. it's not a 'radiant' process)


Peter has obviously adapted the original patent design from cylinders to 'bells' - i suspect that it has nothing to do with the shape of his Spitfire's cockpit and heating up with vibration (did he fly it under water?!?)

i think it has everything to do with him playing the saxophone & noticing the resonant vibrations in objects around him when he played - and probably also to the greater availability of bicyle & alarm-clock bells than concentric brass cylinders after the war

...would be interesting to see if there's ever been an outbreak of bells disappearing from bicyles in Christchurch, New Zealand over the last 60 years ;)


good luck all - i look forward to hearing about the COP results
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: b0rg13 on June 04, 2008, 03:42:13 AM
i spent 2 years in CHCH , and my bell was never stolen, interesting pic in the above post, hes got three hands!. :o
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 04, 2008, 08:52:34 AM
@ b0rg
> ...interesting pic in the above post, hes got three hands!

that's what Evolution does to you after 75 years playing the saxophone ;)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 04, 2008, 09:45:44 AM
]...being serious here - just for a minute...

NerzhDishual uses 'bells'  and blows a 15(?)A fuse - Davey (supposedly) uses 'bells' and shows 2.5A

this causes me to think that vibration plays a different part altogether...

what if the vibration is actually disconnecting the loose electrode for part of the mains cycle?

it would then be acting like a random mechanical SCR - probably reduce the average current ... and maybe do some interesting things with the effect of the rise & fall edges of the switched voltage

in the news video, Davey admits he's holding something back

what? he using radioactive bicycle bells?!  ;)

no, i don't think it matters if he uses bells or his dog's food tins - the important feature is that they're LOOSE (see how many times its mentioned in the Patent)

that would also re-inforce the thinking that the resonant frequency of the bell itself is unimportant - not easy to transfer acoustic energy into something loose - a spring needs to be anchored somewhere if you want it to oscillate/resonate (unless it has sufficient fexibility to its own mass ratio)

...just an idea, i'll shut up now :)
sandy
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 04, 2008, 01:35:26 PM
Sandy, did you see the picture where he is shown holding a bell and playing a G on a piano. A G would also correspond to an octave harmonic of 50Hz. I think there is a connection between mains frequency and audio frequency. Is it possible, especially if the bell naturally vibrates at at a doubling of the frequency? 100Hz, 200Hz, 400Hz etc.?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NewAge on June 04, 2008, 01:59:05 PM
]in the news video, Davey admits he's holding something back

what? he using radioactive bicycle bells?!  ;)

no, i don't think it matters if he uses bells or his dog's food tins - the important feature is that they're LOOSE (see how many times its mentioned in the Patent)
There is a strong possibility that this simple heating toy is a key to Stan Mayer super-efficient electrolizer.
See http://merlib.org/files/pgfed/D14.pdf page 11:
"
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 04, 2008, 03:02:35 PM
hi Storre

yes, i did see that pic - i believe that Davey, as a sax player, knows well that a 'bell' tuned to the pitch of 'G' is a close harmonic of 50Hz (in the same way that i, as a bass player know that the frequency of my low-E string is around 41 or 42 Hz)

however, having seen all the evidence (the patent, the various accounts Davey has given to different people, his claim to have purposefully witheld some info in his accounts, etc) i think Davey either believes in his own mind - or wants the public to believe (because, at 92, he's still hoping someone will buy into his invention) - that by acoustically tuning one of the 'bells' (and it's made clear in accounts that it's only one) to the mains freq. then this is an important part of the device's operation

i think it's either an intentional (for 'commercial' reasons, not with malice), or an unintentional, half-truth - somehow the vibration IS important - just not in the way he's describing it

the only piece of information he hasn't disclosed in any public interviews is clearly shown in the Patent to be a physical looseness of all electrodes apart from the central rod & the outer earthing tube

the Patent is clear that any number of electrodes are suitable - no mention whatsoever about important dimension relationships - other than varying the gap to change the heating produced - and in any case, using a number of concentric tubes all the same length will produce an arbitrary range of natural frequencies - they're loose - yes, they could possibly be vibrated by the mains - but it's not likely they're all tuned to it

it's just as possible that any vibration, which may or may not be important to the whole operation, is caused by the vigourous activity of the steam/water boiling

in addition, i believe that the outer earthing-sphere shown on his later hand-held boilers, which we see in action in the video & photos, are formed by two half-spheres welded (or soft-soldered, perhaps) together

i believe this would be a difficult (but not impossible) job to do around two inner concentric 'bells' and therefore i suspect that on these later models he may have reverted to a central rod for the 'live' electrode, a LOOSELY attached tube for the middle 'Neutral' electrode, all enclosed by the protective earthed-sphere which doubles as a 'jacket' to contain the heating water temporarily to improve efficiency until it's expelled by expansion & steam pressure


i was interested to find, just now on Google, a link to a company, called Davey, in Australia that makes industrial & consumer water-related products - including a Spa/Pool heater. coincidence? i don't know

http://www.davey.com.au/products/product_image_check.aspx?id=223&catid=241&app=Pool+and+Spa

they say they've been in business for 70 years (from about the time, or just before, that Peter Davey would have gone off to the UK to be a Spitfire pilot) - interesting!

aha! they have a Spa/Pool water heater ... does that ring any 'bells'?  :)

unfortunately not - its gas powered!

so, if, possibly, Davey is related to that business - and he's known about a working electric water heater since the 40's (and an undeniably efficient one at that) - why use gas?!


i say:
 - build one
 - use 'bells'/cones/tubes, whatever
 - leave one or more internal electrodes loose
 - don't bother about acoustic tuning
 - adjust the electrode gap for suitable heat/current ratio
 - get some results
 - vary the gap
 - check if it appears to be tunable towards OU
 - tighten the loose electrode(s)
 - retest
 - compare
 - report back

throw me another tinny & fire up the Barbi - i'm done  ;D

g'day mates
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site    http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 04, 2008, 07:26:12 PM
.....
however, having seen all the evidence (the patent, the various accounts Davey has given to different people, his claim to have purposefully witheld some info in his accounts, etc) i think Davey either believes in his own mind - or wants the public to believe (because, at 92, he's still hoping someone will buy into his invention) - that by acoustically tuning one of the 'bells' (and it's made clear in accounts that it's only one) to the mains freq. then this is an important part of the device's operation.....

This would seem at odds with what Dr. Jan Pajak says on his site - it would appear that things didn't end well for Mr. Davey, enless someone has information to the contrary...

Quote
..... In 1998 I returned to New Zealand from my bread-seeking globetrotting. Of course, each time I managed to visit Christchurch I attempted to also contact Mr Davey. But in the place where his home stood previously, I found only a large pile of broken wooden planks mixed with broken bricks. It looked as if several heavy tanks rolled through his home. In turn no even a trace of him. I also was unable to locate anyone, who would know what actually happened to him. In turn after 1999, as I explained this in subsection A4 of monograph [1/4], it has not been in my fate to let me go to Christchurch again. By now the Davey's telekinetic heater is completely forgotten in New Zealand. It was no any help to it, that the energy efficiency of this heater was proven at the miraculous level of many times above 100%. In turn the fate of the inventor himself remains unknown to me – if anyone out there is aware what happened to him, please let me know. When I talked to Mr Davey the last time, I promised him to publish the description of his heater and the story of his lifetime battles, so that perhaps someone else picks up his fight and puts this miraculous heater into mass production. In this way his almost 50 years of suffering and his brilliant invention would not be wasted, and would start to work for the good of our civilisation. This web page is my fulfilment of that old promise.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 04, 2008, 08:06:28 PM
hi Sprocket

so i guess you haven't watched the more recent NZ news video where they visited him in his home and he demonstrated his handheld 'boiler'? or read the web copy of the NZ paper article with recent photos of him, aged 92?

i seem to remember reading he was born 1916 - if so, that would place the NZ paper article this year

i also seem to remember reading a 'follow-up' to those accounts you've just quoted where the Polish gentleman explained that 'Powers of Evil' had since then travelled back in time and rebuilt Davey's house

i don't know what they drink in Poland but i'm going to get myself a couple of bottles for New Year!

be well, friends
sandy
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 04, 2008, 10:07:09 PM
hi Sprocket

so i guess you haven't watched the more recent NZ news video where they visited him in his home and he demonstrated his handheld 'boiler'? or read the web copy of the NZ paper article with recent photos of him, aged 92?

i seem to remember reading he was born 1916 - if so, that would place the NZ paper article this year

i also seem to remember reading a 'follow-up' to those accounts you've just quoted where the Polish gentleman explained that 'Powers of Evil' had since then travelled back in time and rebuilt Davey's house

i don't know what they drink in Poland but i'm going to get myself a couple of bottles for New Year!

be well, friends
sandy
- well, I seem to have got things badly mixed up, chronologically speaking - I presumed this was the most up-to-date info! :D

I'm not sure if your time-travel remark was in jest, but if not, then, ahem.. we need go no further with this (with all due respect to the Polish gent.)...

Great to hear Mr. Davey is ok though!
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 04, 2008, 11:39:26 PM
hi Sprocket - yes, great news that Mr Davey is still with us, still boiling water in his own very individual way, and can still play a saxophone at 92 - i'm very envious as i'm only about 60% of his age and already i can sense that arthritis will be stopping my bass playing within a few years  :(

as for the other rather  unusual  info i referenced - i think if you were to follow up other links relating to the gentleman you quoted you'ld find that account i mentioned - no joke

all the best
sandy
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on June 05, 2008, 12:13:33 AM

Hello Dr Ringwood,

Yes, IMO, you are a musician, with a very good sense of humor (that is not
indispensable, however, for playing bass guitar).
Your piece about Spitfire and surviving: LOL.

You also post 'faster than your shadow' (should this french expression be of any
meaning translated into English).

Yes, I have been busy. :P
I made some more experiments with some electrolysis devices.
I also made a web page about the way to 'tune' the Davey's bells (should
this be of any use, of course). BTW: my fuse was a 10 amps one.

http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Davey_Tuning.html   (http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Davey_Tuning.html) <--- this page needs updates

@NewAge
I will download the wavanal software thanks for the link.

Best
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 05, 2008, 01:32:39 AM
Hello from Poland,

Let me say about my theory which looks crazy but may be very accurate if you compare some facts.
I call it "magnetosonic motor-heater" . At this video : http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_-DUKQ4Uw you see a method of converting cavitation inside water into heat. Very efficient unfortunately very tedious.
Why ? Because it's mechanical , loud and uses too much electric energy and bearings would not hold out too long.

The same problem had Nikola Tesla with AC generator - how to avoid brushes ?

Solution is obvious (for us today) - rotating magnetic fields!

Now , it's the same technic, using cavitation to heat water, but water is spinned by sound waves rotating around bells or tubes ,because of applied 2 phase current.

Here is the proof that water could be moved by rotating sound wave : http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=9JJnklJTSjw

(similar was about Tiberian bowl but I can't find it right now)

Do you see bubbles ? the same bubbles which are in motor driven cavitation heater ! now we use a finest method to speed water rotation and then bubbles blow passing through holes heating water rapidly.

Here is electrical engineer needed to analyze how it is possible to use AC current with proper cavity to accelerate water so fast


Regards
Forest
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 05, 2008, 09:46:09 AM
hi NerzhDishual and forest
(nice work on the bell tuning, ND, & vids showing acoustic effects on water, forest)


now we're cooking!!  :)


have you heard of sonoluminescence?

there was some discussion a few years back, i believe, that sonoluminescence may be an indicator of zero-point energy activity - an anomalous release of energy, caused by acoustic pressure

sonoluminescence (SL) is the generation of light from sound - it can be generated in water - difficult to re-create under lab conditions but can be observed apparently in some naturally ocurring situations like the bow-wake on a fast & powerful boat (so, no use using the seagull 1/4 HP here, ND!)

i found a site which shows how to recreate SL in the lab - quite involved - but check out this statement:

 "...the actual mechanism by which sound is converted to light remains elusive, not least because of the difficulty in measuring the conditions inside a pulsating bubble whose diameter is measured in micro-meters. It is generally agreed that the adiabatic compression of the bubble leads to very high interior temperatures..."


the experiment i found was generating SL in single bubbles using a frequency of 25kHz - BUT - this frequency is only decided by the dimensions of the glass jar containing the water and the speed of sound in water (around 1500m/s apparently)

a standing wave is created in the water using sound; a bubble is introduced into the water artificially; the standing wave forces the bubble to the centre of the container; with the necessary level of sound input (about 1W into a couple of piezo transducers) SL could be caused inside the bubble

the SL effect worked best when the water was de-gassed - and one way of de-gassing water is to boil it!


soooo - did Peter Davey (or someone in his family, if it was them who were already involved in water-related technology, back around 1940s) stumble upon an effect when working with known concentric electrode heating of water - whereby if they had some looseness in the electrodes they found an anomalous effect (eg. greater efficiency in the heating of the water?)

would be interesting to know if the water in Davey's heater produces any light when operated in the dark

the original Patent just captured the necessity for looseness to allow vibration to occur during operation (but was it vibration at mains freq.? or was it general vibration due to motion of boiling water/steam bubbles?)

then later, Peter, whilst playing his sax & noting the resonant effect of different things vibrating with different sax notes, remembers the vibration effect in the water heater & thinks to himself "maybe the loose electrodes should be tuned to the mains frequency to increase the vibration - i'll try something tuned to a harmonic of the mains freq. 50Hz - what can i use? something metal which has a very pure resonant frequency, not too big - i know, a bicycle bell"

bicycle bells start disappearing all over Christchurch, New Zealand

he knows that the heater works best when the surfaces of the concentric heater run parallel to each other, and that wouldn't work with a central rod & 1 bell, so he comes up with a design which has two bells, one 'inside' the other

he leaves at least one of the bells slightly loose, perhaps, and tries it out - it works very well

the only trouble is that he keeps putting the 'live' heater down on the wet work surface in his kitchen after boiling water and all his family & friends refuse to come & have a cup of tea with him until he makes the thing safe - so he re-designs it inside an earthed outer-sphere

BUT...
 - does he know why vibration of the electrodes is important?
 - does he know that more heat energy is output than electrical energy is input?
 - does he know whether the bells work better than tubes?
 - does he know that a bell tuned to harmonic of 50Hz (his mains freq.) works better than one which isn't?

maybe, maybe not - he doesn't discuss results

that's where overunity.com comes in - it's up to people in the forum to investigate Peter Davey's device and answer these questions


BTW  ND, 'CoolEdit' looks good - but you might like to check out a PC App called Audacity - open source freeware - very professional - no registration - no limitations (i use it to produce MP3s from my live band recordings, i'm very impressed with it)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: edelind on June 05, 2008, 10:43:01 AM
@all

Since I last posted here I tried a few things regarding Davey heater and here are some conclusions:

First, there is something indeed with this device when the inner bell reaches resonance. Even I was not able to reach full resonance (due to misleading frequency data on my side), the heating process amplified at the proper distance between the bells (about 4 millimeters, as stated in the documentation). Also another mistake that I made was that I made the outer bell bigger (longer) than the inner one. This design made steam building up inside the outer bell and by pushing the water down, disconnected the inner bell from contacting the water.
So always made the inner bell bigger or have holes in the top of the outer bell for steam venting.

After seeing how my device worked and studying the Davey's movies, I concluded that in his last design, the sphere is the inner "bell", the resonator, and the top bell is the outer bell (there is no "protection" bell, as in the first sketches using semi-spherical bells). The sphere has that hole at the bottom, because it needed tunning, so it has to be machined. The covering plate I think it's just a try to make the sphere back as perfect as possible, but still not affecting its resonance.

Also, there is a problem with the voltage of the mains. At the so small distance between the bells, we face a process that normally happens outside the resonance too: the device will start heating the water by dragging a lot of amperage, somewhere beyond 20A. So either the resonance will cause this effect to be dramatically reduced (as a previous poster suggested too), either we should go for a smaller voltage (or else there will be no efficiency).

So my future tries will involve a better tunned inner bell with a smaller voltage. Maybe also a spherical design too.

Overall, I think Davey's device uses the same principle as WITS' water heater, just he tunes his device to the mains frequency, while WITS is going with the frequency after the sphere resonance. Of course, WITS' device is more efficient, as it resonate the sphere at its fundamental frequency, while Davey's is running on an octave.

See the WITS heater here:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZxnEQssJ4FQ

Regarding the patent, I say forget about it, as it's early work and even Davey dropped the idea long time ago.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: edelind on June 05, 2008, 10:56:27 AM
Has anyone made any progress on this yet? I'm eager to try it, but I don't know where I could get bells that resonate at 60hz. I was thinking of visiting this bicycle shop near by because they might sell bicycle bells like what Peter Davey himself used, but once I'm there how do I determine the resonance frequency of the bells?

If this thing gets completed, then what are these good for, besides boiling water? Do you intend to use them to replace your water heater, or power things with a steam turbine?

Forget about bicycle bells! I think they were different back then when Davey used them. The present designs are not semi-spherical, but have multiple radius, more like a part of a sphere connected to a cylinder. This will give you multiple resonating frequencies which interfere one each other. Even you'll made them resonate somehow to a multiple of 50Hz (or 60Hz in US), you won't be able to find an outer bell with a diameter +1 centimeter on all sizes. You can see Davey's bell on one of the movie (or pictures) and they are all bells with a single radius, most likely stainless steel.

Also you should not look for a bell that resonates at 50Hz, as it must be huge, but one that resonates at a higher octave of 50Hz (an integer multiple, the best are powers of 2).

For tunning see this interesting link:
http://www.physics.brown.edu/physics/demopages/Demo/waves/demo/3d4055.htm

@all
A good idea is also to check your mains frequency before you start, as I had the surprise to measure 56Hz here.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 05, 2008, 02:55:59 PM
way back in the 1940s, either Peter Davey, or someone he worked with, discovered something important enough for him to submit a patent for it

the patent application expired after 1 year - it was never pursued!

although Davey went on to build handheld heaters for himself & modified the design - he obviously never believed he had found anything as significant as the first discovery - there were no more Patent applications after the first one!

what does this tell us?  it says that the most important features already exist in the first patent!  ie. Davey modified the design in a way that was unimportant to its operation

if we ignore the only Patent we have then we start wasting a LOT of time

Davey has already admitted publicly, on the video, that he's keeping something back

the only thing which is in the patent, and which he doesn't talk about in any interviews, is the loose arrangement of the electrodes

(the Patent begins by saying that concentric element electric water heaters are already a known art - the novel features of this one, at that time, were just the the rapid operation, the loose electrodes and the safety aspects)


in general, the current draw depends on the electrode gap - more gap, less current - less current, less heat


so, if there is anything anomalous happening at all in this heater, i strongly suggest that it's to do with the only thing which Davey DOESN'T talk about - the looseness of the electrodes - they can vibrate

note that in the Patent they don't have to resonate, or be tuned - they can just vibrate

this will happen either with the mains freq. or with the bubbling action of the steam & water - tests will be needed to see which is more important


the very small outer 'bell', between the handle & the sphere, is not a part of the heating process - when the water boils, steam & hot water bubble out the top of the heater, as cooler water enters at the bottom

that small outer bell is there to deflect the steam & water back down into the glass/cup & give some protection to the user - it doesn't need to go under the surface of the water (see the 'Twister' photo above), in fact, as a vent it SHOULDN'T go under the water


NerzhDishual has made a start (& already got some near OU results!) - build on that experience

i bet ND was too good a constructor to leave anything loose - am i right?

so, repeat the experiments with one or both loose electrodes (may have to be loose electrically as well as physically - see my comments above about possible mechanical SCR action)

maybe increase the electrode gap if it's pulling too much current

start testing - run some tests with anything concentric (bells, tubes, cones, whatever) - vary the parameters - look for a performance curve - find which parameters can be tuned for improvement

don't spend time with acoustic tuning of bells - until you know for a fact that bells are actually necessary!


...was i little too outspoken there?  ...not like me at all!  i just don't like to see people wasting their valuable time & effort  ;)

good luck
sandy
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 05, 2008, 03:25:24 PM
@nul-points

When I see videos like this, it makes me think that resonance is important. Even with loose electrodes and bell, wouldn't it vibrate easier if it was vibratED with it's already naturally occurring frequency? Like this glass does in this video.

http://www.youtube.com/v/17tqXgvCN0E&hl=pl

Does anyone have bells the size of the ones he uses when he is playing the piano? It would be difficult to duplicate the size but it would be interesting to see what frequency it is or close to.

The octave (50Hz, 100Hz, 200, 400, 800, 1600) I think are the strongest resonant relationships but you also have the minor 3rd and 5th overtones that are strong. Maybe better to vary the frequency of the mains. I have an audio frequency generator in my house and I can turn up the sound and scan through it's frequency range of 40Hz to 3KHz and hear different things vibrating depending on the frequency. What options are there for varying electrical frequency besides this?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Variable-frequency_drive

Then make one of the bells a little lose like nul-points suggested and play with the frequency while monitoring the temp of the water.

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=zWKiWaiM3Pw&NR=1
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: edelind on June 05, 2008, 03:45:55 PM
@nul-points

that small outer bell is there to deflect the steam & water back down into the glass/cup & give some protection to the user - it doesn't need to go under the surface of the water (see the 'Twister' photo above), in fact, as a vent it SHOULDN'T go under the water

There is no "twister" in that photo. Watch it carefully and see that the apparent twister is just the continuation of the wire that the third hand is inserting into the glass, most probably a temperature sensor (I suppose it's the hand of the DSIR professor that tested the device).

Watch the video again also and see that there is no twister:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1527526922275986120&hl=en

Also notice that the boiling actually starts when the top bell hits the water. So that's an electrode too ;)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: edelind on June 05, 2008, 04:46:07 PM
The octave (50Hz, 100Hz, 200, 400, 800, 1600) I think are the strongest resonant relationships but you also have the minor 3rd and 5th overtones that are strong.

Somehow when I connect the microphone to my laptop and the charger is plugged in, it starts to oscillate exactly to the mains frequency. The thing that I notices is that indeed you're right and the 3rd and the 5th overtones are the most powerful (it's the first time I understand what you said :-) ).
I attached the print screen to witness.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 05, 2008, 04:57:47 PM
@nul-points
Also notice that the boiling actually starts when the top bell hits the water. So that's an electrode too ;)


Good point! I think that electrodes may be placed in such combination:
- center one (not visible)   bell - first phase of AC
- cover spherical - neutral ground (safety device)
- outer one  -deflector - second AC phase - carefully insulated and placed above neutral with a gap between them
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 05, 2008, 05:01:53 PM
@edelind:

Looking at your spectrum analyzer I would say your mains are 50Hz? Is that right?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: edelind on June 05, 2008, 05:05:32 PM
@edelind:

Looking at your spectrum analyzer I would say your mains are 50Hz? Is that right?

Yes. I was wrong saying it is 56Hz (old uncalibrated oscilloscope :( ). It's 50Hz sharp.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 05, 2008, 05:14:09 PM
If I'm right and both phases are separated by neutral cover then there is probably a big gap between them and a little water path because of small holes in neutral cover. I would suspect very low amperage usage then...
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 05, 2008, 05:17:18 PM
There is one more thing : in older device the spherical cover looks like painted while in new one it's shiny metalic. Is that correct ? But anyway both are spherical.I bet it's important - maybe that cover is not only neutral ground but also resonant cavity like in Thrapp device ?

I feel we are very close ... If a retired musician could done it why not me ?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 05, 2008, 05:34:01 PM
@edelind

> <b>There is no "twister" in that photo</b>
i agree - i see now that Peter Davey's third hand (thanks b0rg!) is holding a wire into the glass - my glasses must have steamed up from the heater! :)

however, that doesn't alter the fact that steam & boiling water are expelled at the top of the sphere, which Davey deflects safely downwards from the vent, away from his handle, with a small bell between handle & sphere

the water vented from the sphere needs to be replaced somehow (to heat the rest of the water in the glass) - there is a constant flow of hot water: the cooler water enters at the bottom vent (makes sense - convection would do this & in fact the patent actually states that all the water is heated by convection)


> <b>Watch the video again also and see that there is no twister</b>

my original comment about the 'Twister' related only to the still photo i posted



> <b>Also notice that the boiling actually starts when the top bell hits the water. So that's an electrode too</b>

the water will start boiling almost immediately the bottom edges of the electrodes enter the water - however, since these edges are hidden inside the sphere, the heater will continue to enter the water BEFORE we see the effect of steam & bubbling vented thro' the top

the outer sphere is earthed and enters the water first - if the 'handle' bell is the second electrode, as you suggest, then the electricity would initially flow between the 'live' electrode inside and the earthed sphere - i don't think so, that's not a protective-earth connection in my book!

i think you will find that the 'live' electrode - and all of the 'neutral' electrode - are safely enclosed within the sphere (exactly as described in the patent) - and that the small 'handle' bell will be earthed

so, no the upper bell will NOT be an electrode too! ;)

all the best
sandy
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 05, 2008, 05:36:14 PM
Do you saw any pictures of original devices which could prove which way the water flows into it ? I see two possibilities : from the top hole hidden under the second electrode 'cap' , or from the bottom through not visible hole. Hard to guess actually...

I have another idea about how he is able to limit current. Look how carefully he puts this device into water cup or fill the cap slowly.If that device is heating a small amount of water first with large current then a steam generated probably CHANGE the resistance of path between electrodes and that way maybe the current drops !
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 05, 2008, 05:54:27 PM
or maybe the steam being forced out starts the resonance which then gets sustained by the mains frequency. A flute morphing into a bell :-)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 05, 2008, 07:32:35 PM
Interesting...Look here : http://www.hydrodynamics.com/technology_review.htm

Cavitation at 3600 rpm. Isn't that 60hz ? 3600 /60 s= 60 rps=60hz ???
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 05, 2008, 08:16:12 PM
Yes I've been mentioning the water hammer over in the other thread about stubblefield batteries. Seems to me something similar is happening in the electron level when flow is abruptly stopped. It seems for an instant there is some type of infinite energy there.

It seems that with two bells vibrating against something close or against each other at a rhythmic frequency might cause micro cavitation.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 06, 2008, 03:11:56 PM
hi Storre

i think this area (eg microcavitation) is much more likely to be involved in any anomalous activity going on in Davey's heater - see my reply #149 relating to sonoluminescence on the previous page in this thread

here's a quote from a relevant patent :
"Acoustic Coaxing Induced Microcavitation (ACIM)

ACIM ...induced using a low frequency, high intensity primary acoustic field and a higher frequency, low intensity coaxing acoustic field. To effect ACIM, the two fields were substantially simultaneously directed at a site of a workpiece or object.

ACIM methods and apparatuses of the present invention may be used to erode metallic surfaces, help shatter kidney stones, accelerate chemical reactions and even lead to light production, i. e., sonoluminescence."

so - possibly, in Davey's heater, low freq = 50Hz mains vibration? & high frequency = resonant freq of electrode?


also, on the subject of the heater's construction, i noticed in a photo of one of Davey's variations on his sphere design, this one where the bottom 'plate' had a wider gap from the sphere

you can see something extending out from within the bottom of the sphere a little - could it possibly be a cylinder?!

interesting, too, to see a little more of the area between the handle & the upper small 'bell' - signs of silver soldering around the area where the copper end of the handle goes into the upper bell - looks like a good electrical connection to me - on the end of the handle!   got to hope it's earth, not neutral or live!  ;)

take care all, have fun
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NewAge on June 06, 2008, 10:25:32 PM
Now, if you haven't yet, watch and LISTEN carefully http://multimedia.stuff.co.nz/thepress/sonic/
You will hear the 50Hz hum of the main when he immerses the boiler.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 07, 2008, 01:26:21 AM
I read the whole last weeks material just now and see that all contributions were very useful.
Congratulations all. Especially nul-point there. What a careful detective work over the material
thats out there! You must be Lady Sherlock. Not to mention the amount of valuable knowledge
that got shared.

My attention was drawn most by the discussion of sonoluminescence and micro cavities.
My deduction from the last weeks material is that what heats the water is the very many
micro bubbles get created mostly by the vibration of the bell(s) and then they IMplode
which would be one explanation of the extra energy that seems to be there.

Then I come back to one of my very early posts in this topic. Why do we need to power
this thing with electricity at all? When all it does is to ring the bell(s)  very gently 50 times/sec.
Then, can we get another gentle and fast "ringer" that has less energetic cost then electricity?
Or do we just increase the frequency of the AC that we put in for better results?
Is as all we need is a lot of frequency, and a little voltage and a little current?
(frequency still in respect with the harmonic resonance needed by the bell(s) to be efficient.)

If those assumptions are correct then the devices tried by two of our friends just drew a lot
of current because of the simple fact that it is in this setups nature to draw a lot of current (electrolysis)

Again, I may be way off but please be gentle. :)

PS : Thank you very much ND.
 
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 07, 2008, 01:41:05 AM
I think it has something to do with steam creation. Apparently when steam is created conductivity rises and current draw drops to minimal level.

I think that according to video and article that outside spherical metalic cover must be connected to Earth ground for safety. I'm not electrical engineer and I would like to know how then it's possible it to work if inside are two Ac electrodes. Doesn't it generates a shortcircuit with Earth ground ?

Also patent mantions interesting approach : 3 electrodes : one is central rod, second two are tubes. Connection is similar as in Joe cell. One AC phase is between two electrodes of second AC phase.

Why I din't see the same in schematic of device based on bells ?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: retrod on June 07, 2008, 02:35:00 AM

I think that according to video and article that outside spherical metalic cover must be connected to Earth ground for safety. I'm not electrical engineer and I would like to know how then it's possible it to work if inside are two Ac electrodes. Doesn't it generates a shortcircuit with Earth ground ?



Is it possible the device will only work properly with distilled water? This may be the only way (in my opinion) to have a 'constant' in the conductivity of the water.
RD
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 09, 2008, 02:26:52 AM
Congratulations all. Especially nul-point there. What a careful detective work over the material
thats out there! You must be Lady Sherlock.

LOL@ Lady Sherlock
dayum, does that mean i need to start shaving my legs?!?

(nul-points = ugly, 6'2", 205lbs / 1.88m 93kilo, ex-rugby player!)  ;D

but thank you for the kind words - appreciated!

good ideas also for trying variations with other freqs & acoustic-only input


now - check this dude out - this is what i'm talking about - this man has sacrificed his (spare!) kitchen (see photo below) for the good of humanity and a better future:

Mr Dishual (aka 'Nerzh' to his old friends) has just got on with the experiments - 2 bells / 3 bells / hanging / standing / pointing down / pointing up /

his experiment variations and results, so far, posted at at the lower part of the following page
   http://freenrg.info/Exp_With_DallasGB_Elect/Davey_Versus_DallasGoldBug.html

kudos, man!!!

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 09, 2008, 09:02:32 AM
Hi,

I think all experimenters forgot about one important element - a spherical casing. Without that sonic waves cannot bounce and all action is lost. See all Davey videos if he's using other heaters casing .. NO, he's not!  even in patent he is using ceramic tubular container. All element must be able to responce SONICALLY - if you hit them the sound must be rich of harmonics .
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 09, 2008, 12:07:42 PM
hi forest

his earlier designs didn't have any casing at all


i think we'll find that if resonance tuning is important to some OU activity in this kind of heater, then it won't be acoustic standing waves

acoustic standing waves would need an absolutely calm environment to sustain - and the bubbling of steam & how water here is definitely not a calm environment!

electrical standing waves might possibly sustain without the water being calm - but, as i mentioned in an earlier post, the wavelengths for electrical standing waves are LARGE compared to what we're seeing here - even a 144MHz standing wave would have to be around 2metres long! 

so - this is why i think microcavitation is the best fit for some anomalous OU-type activity here - if there is anything anomalous at all (so, more testing needed)

microcavitation could be caused by vibration of one or more of the electrodes - and the electrodes can vibrate due to the mains freq (50 or 60Hz) and also by the natural resonance of the electrodes - which could be bells, cyclinders, cones, etc

if we're not looking at standing-wave resonance then it is more likely that ANY type of outer sphere is just providing:-
  1) earth protection
  2) longer water containment between electrodes before it bubbles out, giving more efficient heating

all the best
sandy
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 09, 2008, 01:02:52 PM
Hi nul-points,

First : where did you got any pictures of Davey  heater without spherical casing ? I cannot find any , except some very suspicious article on kellyNet based on work of even more suspicious Polish (unfortunately) proffesor (?) (I have nothing against him but all his articles even if very interesting are in fact used to promote his extravagant theory.I would not trust them in details)

I agree with you about the role of container and its shape is important too. Did you saw Thrapp device test ? http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=ZxnEQssJ4FQ

However I hardly can imagine how container could be connected to earth  without causing a short-circuit ?

I agree about microcavitation, but again can't imagine how it would happen without any rotation in water and a holes like in that device : http://www.globalmicroturbine.com/Site/Applications/Entries/2006/12/12_Cavitational_Fluid_Heat.html

But what if Davey heater is really a rotary engine ? That concept may look crazy but  explain all. 60hz is the same as 3600 rpm and if water is directly turn into rotating state I would expect such rotation speed. Then only a small holes maybe are needed ? I don't know much about microcavitation. Do you have any links ?


Regards
Boguslaw
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 09, 2008, 01:22:32 PM
Imagine : no motor, no bearings yet still fast cavitation. it's wonderful, it's music .I'm totally after that! Put those heaters on the market and release plans everywhere!

Sorry,I can't resist..
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 09, 2008, 01:33:14 PM
OK. I FOUND SOMETHING WHICH LOOKS LIKEWISE !  :o

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=ioe_Y56pHng&feature=related

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 09, 2008, 01:48:35 PM
hi Boguslaw

picture of one of Davey's heaters without casing below
 

i haven't looked at the Thrapp device yet - i must do that


the device can operate without shorting because the water between the live & neutral electrodes acts as a relatively low impedance (resistance) between them and current flows from the live to the neutral & heats the water in its path

by arranging the electrodes concentrically, the inner electrode is live, the next electrode is neutral and the outer casing is earthed

the shortest, easiest path for the electricity to flow is from the central live electrode to the middle neutral electrode - the gap between electrodes is adjusted to give the required resistance of water path (& therefore current flow) which provides suitably fast heating without blowing a fuse (checkout NerzhDishual's experiments!)

so, little or no current should flow from the live to the earth - but even if it did (and i guess a small amount will, due to the bubbling mixing the water up) then the longer electric path thro' the water from the live electrode to the earth casing will have a higher resistance than to the neutral, so most current will flow, as on conventional element heaters, between live & neutral

does that make sense? i'm not sure i explained it that well !  :)


microcavitation in water can be caused by processes which put large amounts of physical (acoustic) pressure into small volumes of water (even if those small, localised, volumes are within a larger volume of water generally - eg, vibration together of solid parts, compression due to rotating or linear pistons, explosions etc)

i believe that possibly one of the first discoveries of this type of activity was noticed in the bow-waves of ships travelling at speed - sonoluminescence was noticed & was eventually linked with the acoustic turbulence caused in the water by the action of the bow hitting the water

it CAN be done by the power in acoustic standing waves - but, as i mentioned, this really needs a calm stable environment in the water - which we don't have here


i see what you're saying about a rotation in the water - but i think this would be closer to vortex behavior investigated by Victor Schauberger, which is a different, but still possibly OU-type effect


i'll try to look out some relevant microcavitation links - but they shouldn't be hard to find using Google


...just seen that you've added some more posts whilst i was replying - i'll have to check those out later tonight, thanks

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 09, 2008, 01:51:26 PM
LOL@ Lady Sherlock
dayum, does that mean i need to start shaving my legs?!?

(nul-points = ugly, 6'2", 205lbs / 1.88m 93kilo, ex-rugby player!)  ;D


Sorry Nul. I thought Sandy would be a woman's name. You know - Grease for example.
"Saandy can't you see, I'm in misery. We made a start now we're apart there's nothing left for me......."
Anyway, next generation Sherlock then. Hows that?

ND has a major error in his assembly. Davey's has a curved handle and he boils his water using
his hand to put the device inside. The reason is probably to let the cups vibrate more efficiently.

His cups is nothing like Davey's cups and still 1.1COP? (Although fuse blows very soon).
ND will get there as soon as someone sends him bells of the size that is mentioned in the detailed
construction document :) and a handle :)


Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 09, 2008, 01:52:34 PM
Hi nul-points,

First : where did you got any pictures of Davey  heater without spherical casing ? I cannot find any , except some very suspicious article on kellyNet based on work of even more suspicious Polish (unfortunately) proffesor (?) (I have nothing against him but all his articles even if very interesting are in fact used to promote his extravagant theory.I would not trust them in details)

Regards
Boguslaw


I do not think that the spherical casing is anything but an attempt to hide what's inside
from curious eyes like ours. The device is simple! Look at ND there getting 1.1COP with
a setup that hardly resembles Davey's thing.

I mentioned before : If something works it works in many different shapes and ways.
For the moment I propose to assemble something that looks exactly like the device
in the document chapter14.pdf.

Storre you were going to assemble one. What happened to you?
Grinding tooooo easy remember?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 09, 2008, 02:15:31 PM
Sorry Nul. I thought Sandy would be a woman's name. You know - Grease for example.
"Saandy can't you see, I'm in misery. We made a start now we're apart there's nothing left for me......."
Anyway, next generation Sherlock then. Hows that?

no problem at all - it's a regular assumption!  :)   Sandy is also a Scottish nickname for Alexander - but i guess you'd need some Scottish connections to have heard that

but i appreciate your kind words - i'm actually working on an unrelated electrical anomaly & only came over here to see what ND was up to ;)  - i hope my comments have been some help & encouragement


ND has a major error in his assembly. Davey's has a curved handle and he boils his water using
his hand to put the device inside. The reason is probably to let the cups vibrate more efficiently.

His cups is nothing like Davey's cups and still 1.1COP? (Although fuse blows very soon).
ND will get there as soon as someone sends him bells of the size that is mentioned in the detailed
construction document :) and a handle :)

i agree that there is likely a whole area of freedom in replicating this device & any associated anomalies - i think ND has made a good start - as you say, COPs +/- 1.0 are very impressive for early tests!

i think vibration may be important - but probably not in the handle - i suspect more likely in the mounting of one of the mains electrodes, probably neutral

tests will show, hopefully, if the vibration can be just physical (with good continuous electrical connection) - or else if some vibration with the electrical connection is necessary (see my comments about possible mechanical SCR action, earlier)

i agree that Davey is probably hoping to hide the internals somewhat, but i think the key thing he hasn't mentioned publically is loose electrode mounting

however, he did make a point of mentioning that his heater wasn't approved early on due to safety concerns & i think it's highly likely that the casing also plays an important role in providing earth protection (it also 'contains' the water currently being heated, so this is an important feature too)

all the best
sandy

"...tell me more, tell me more, tell me more" (sorry - a little musical joke there)  ;)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 09, 2008, 03:24:03 PM

i agree that there is likely a whole area of freedom in replicating this device & any associated anomalies - i think ND has made a good start - as you say, COPs +/- 1.0 are very impressive for early tests!

"...tell me more, tell me more, tell me more" (sorry - a little musical joke there)  ;)

Sandy,

Of course any input is valuable. I actually would like to transfer you from your anomaly
to this one. Here is my persuasive question : "Do you have any chances at all to get a COP of around
1 with your anomaly in your first try? :)

"well oh well oh well a-ha" (continuing the musical joke)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 09, 2008, 03:42:09 PM
I have an idea. Compare Davey device with any such electric heaters. Tha good key for searching among patents is : 'instantaneous electric heater'

I'm searching currently and have found 3 already, but all seems to be related to water flow inside device and to mix AC electrodes in a sandwich : live neutral live neutral live ... and so on..

That kind of separation is as stated most efficient to reduce current.davey is using it also in his heater patent
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 09, 2008, 04:25:10 PM
hi Dev

> "Here is my persuasive question : "Do you have any chances at all to get a COP of around
1 with your anomaly in your first try?"


i'm currently seeing measured (Load Output Energy)/(Total Input Energy) ratios >= 1.1 and (Load + Control Energy)/(Total Input Energy) ratios >= 1.2 on the anomalies i'm investigating

my website below has details


what can you offer on Davey's heater?  ;)


seriously, though, i think my best contribution is to try & encourage folks to start testing, inspect results & then refine (like ND is doing) rather than think that everything has to be 'right' before you can make a start

this (heater) seems to be a very accessible area of experimentation which many people can get involved in both practically & theory-wise

there looks to be plenty of scope for members across the whole range of experience - as long as all safety aspects are carefully handled

it's not often you come across a process which seems to be crying out to have COP measurements taken straight off the bat


@forest
...just seen your latest post - i think the "live neutral live neutral live" electrode sandwich doesn't necessarily reduce current (that can always be varied by adjusting inter-electrode gap) - the real benefit of the 'sandwich' is to maximise water/electrode contact area, which therefore means that you can flow much more water past the heater per minute & still heat to the same level - ie. better suited to inline water-flow heaters than the static container type Davey is using as a 'kettle'

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 09, 2008, 07:07:47 PM
What about this : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buzzer ?

"The word "buzzer" comes from the rasping noise that buzzers made when they were electromechanical devices, operated from stepped-down AC line voltage at 50 or 60 cycles."

Interesting
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 09, 2008, 08:39:19 PM
I've created Skype chat, maybe it could be useful ?

Join it here:
http://www.skype.com/go/joinpublicchat?skypename=brandysb&topic=Sonic%20boiler&blob=5kGiwWLgSU5S053Y1ZHxpA1xokfXzUke1rTA0-4dldCJYoPRwKYtQTksdDieaz7Ada66e4Yt-OxDgOFsjm4YaKPgqos
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 10, 2008, 01:13:54 AM
hi Dev

> "Here is my persuasive question : "Do you have any chances at all to get a COP of around
1 with your anomaly in your first try?"


i'm currently seeing measured (Load Output Energy)/(Total Input Energy) ratios >= 1.1 and (Load + Control Energy)/(Total Input Energy) ratios >= 1.2 on the anomalies i'm investigating

my website below has details


what can you offer on Davey's heater?  ;)

Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc


Hi Sandy,
Do those little capacitors really work?
I am just writing this little note to make my amazement public.
COP>1 all over the place! Maybe the time has come I don't know.
But in Davey's place we also offer prolonged life the comes with drinking coffee out of Davey's boilers ;P
You are right! We should all get off our lazy ...ses and replicate the thing as close as we could.
 
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: b0rg13 on June 10, 2008, 02:33:38 AM
OK. I FOUND SOMETHING WHICH LOOKS LIKEWISE !  :o

http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=ioe_Y56pHng&feature=related



this looks good, i wonder how much power it draws from the mains, or if it could be done with a car battery. :o
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 10, 2008, 06:47:06 AM
OK. I FOUND SOMETHING WHICH LOOKS LIKEWISE !  :o
http://pl.youtube.com/watch?v=ioe_Y56pHng&feature=related

yes, same electrical connection as Davey patent - no casing container - no vibration - BUT - lots of boiling water & steam!

this is why i think it's important to start testing straight away to find out what is the baseline - what is the COP of systems like the one in this vid ?

can the COP be improved by: -  adding a container? - making electrode(s) loose physically? - making electrode(s) loose electrically?


this looks good, i wonder ... if it could be done with a car battery. :o

i believe NerzhDishual has tried low volts DC on his Davey setup & reports that he gets a little gas but no boiling

increasing DC (12V-->24V-->36V) starts to increase gas - current follows Ohm's law (approx), so 0.5A,1A,1.5A for the volts just stated - this ties in approx. with his 220V AC results where he's seeing around 10A (taking 220V RMS AC to be equivalent to 220V DC)


Hi Sandy,
Do those little capacitors really work?
I am just writing this little note to make my amazement public.
COP>1 all over the place! Maybe the time has come I don't know.
But in Davey's place we also offer prolonged life the comes with drinking coffee out of Davey's boilers ;P
You are right! We should all get off our lazy ...ses and replicate the thing as close as we could.
at the moment, Dev, i don't know exactly where in the circuit, or why, the anomalies are happening - i'm thinking it's something to do with the pulsed DC charge-switching (H Aspden has predicted OU behaviour of capacitors gaining excess energy from induced 'aether' spin)

this is how i became aware of ND's experiments - both he & i reported in another thread that we had each found a conservation of charge anomaly when charging one capacitor from another

ND went on to look at HHO production - and the Davey heater - and i followed up on the charge anomaly and found there seems to be a connected energy anomaly

this is why i need to be continuing my own practical experiments at the moment - there are lots of good people available & interested here to follow up on the Davey heater - but my cap charge anomaly is just not 'sexy' enough for folks to look into at the moment, just a bunch of waveforms & calculations  :)

i agree, we need to look into unusual claims more & see what is hiding in plain view all around us! - i think it's great that so many people are prepared to do this - despite conventional 'science' making a judgement without doing the experiments ('pre-judgement' is the exact opposite of science!!)

it was left to some very brave people, hundreds of years ago, who were prepared to go 'off the map' to confirm that the world is indeed NOT flat!  :)

all the best
sandy


Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 10, 2008, 01:51:10 PM
I do not think that the spherical casing is anything but an attempt to hide what's inside
from curious eyes like ours. The device is simple! Look at ND there getting 1.1COP with
a setup that hardly resembles Davey's thing.

I mentioned before : If something works it works in many different shapes and ways.
For the moment I propose to assemble something that looks exactly like the device
in the document chapter14.pdf.

Storre you were going to assemble one. What happened to you?
Grinding tooooo easy remember?

I'm still here and reading all the new information :) I live in a very remote location so even getting metal is a slow process. I found a friend that works at a machine shop and on his spare time he is going to help me get and possibly shape the materials like the bells. Wish I lived closer to civilization to take a more active part in this work but then again I wouldn't want to deal with the rest that goes on with tightly packed groups of people stressing out to survive ;)

Regarding the recent postings and also the you tube video where he keeps saying on off on off. Of course we don't know what the temp was before he said on ;) I have a brute force boiler here that I yanked from an electric shower head and it will do the same thing and I'm only use 126v and neutral.

The vibrating electrodes seems a very possible solution but I will try it first with them fixed and spend most of my time adjusting the distance between the 2 bells which is what I think is critical.

About the spherical casing. I did see pictures with just 2 bells but I think at one point he needed to add a safety ground so put a grounded sphere AROUND the 2 bells. Since we can't see what is inside the spherical housing then we can't assume it's only one bell inside.

I hope my stainless steel and brass arrives soon so I can take a more active part in this work :)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 10, 2008, 01:58:58 PM
I'm still here and reading all the new information :) I live in a very remote location so even getting metal is a slow process. I found a friend that works at a machine shop and on his spare time he is going to help me get and possibly shape the materials like the bells. Wish I lived closer to civilization to take a more active part in this work but then again I wouldn't want to deal with the rest that goes on with tightly packed groups of people stressing out to survive ;)

Regarding the recent postings and also the you tube video where he keeps saying on off on off. Of course we don't know what the temp was before he said on ;) I have a brute force boiler here that I yanked from an electric shower head and it will do the same thing and I'm only use 126v and neutral.

The vibrating electrodes seems a very possible solution but I will try it first with them fixed and spend most of my time adjusting the distance between the 2 bells which is what I think is critical.

About the spherical casing. I did see pictures with just 2 bells but I think at one point he needed to add a safety ground so put a grounded sphere AROUND the 2 bells. Since we can't see what is inside the spherical housing then we can't assume it's only one bell inside.

I hope my stainless steel and brass arrives soon so I can take a more active part in this work :)

Unfortunately I am unable to access youtube for about a month now
as it has been banned by court order because of some videos
that insulted Ataturk. So until they are removed we are out of youtube here.

My problem that kept me from starting an experiment of my own
was that bike bells are flat when compared to these semi spherical
bells and I did not know where to find such spherical bells.

Some people were leaving for India and so I ordered some singing bells
although they would be probably too big. Then last night I finally got
a good idea from the curved handle that Davey was using. It could be a
part of a chandelier! Then it downed on me, chandeliers from the 80s
had semi spherical metal housing that secured the glass head.

The only problem could be the material of these as they could be made out of
some cheap alloy with poor electrical properties.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Nihilanth on June 11, 2008, 06:28:01 AM
I thought AC was used because it's supposed to be the same frequency as the hemispheres' mechanical resonance, then wouldn't using DC to split the water probably work better if it were pulsed at the same frequency?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 11, 2008, 05:14:33 PM
Using DC should just result in electrolysis.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: edelind on June 11, 2008, 06:04:26 PM
He also notes that in his opinion his setup uses the same amount of energy to heat the water as a kettle, which is not what we want to hear - though to get practically instantaneous boiling like we see would take serious current imo, more than is 'apparently' being used...

In my tests I also get the same amount of bubbles. But this is misleading, as the bubbles came from the (little amount of) vaporised water between the 2 bells, not from all the water. As I found out by experience, bubbles does not mean much, as the device does not heat ALL the water at once (with brute-force). This means that we get the same amount of bubbles from brute-force heaters too (with no resonance), but with an inefficient amount of amperage.

As Thrapp also mentioned (here: http://youtube.com/watch?v=ZxnEQssJ4FQ ), the heating at resonance (i.e. by the intense vibration of the bell/sphere) will show no bubbles at all, only smooth heating.

So, IMHO, bubbles = inefficient heating. I also think that even Davey used both ways too heat water (resonance AND brute-force) unlike Thrapp, which used only resonance (with as little as 12V and 0.18 A).

Also, in Davey's device it's easy to figure out when your device resonates (I mean in water), as you can feel the vibration in your hand (do not touch the metal, only the handle!).

Another idea (which should be tested) is this:
Even the inner bell is excited with the mains frequency (50/60Hz), it will vibrate at HIS own frequency. So the smaller the bell, the harder to be excited (more distance between his frequency and the mains), BUT the higher his vibrating frequency, which may agitate the water more rapidly, maybe leading to a faster heating. I think this is why Davey uses SMALL bells, not big ones.

In Thrapp design the situation is different, as he (maybe) uses the exact frequency of the sphere to excite, so the enrgy is bigger (being on its fundamental).
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on June 12, 2008, 02:26:52 AM


Hi Guys,

As I received no 'warning email', sort of:
"A reply has been posted to a topic you are watching by xxx"
I thought this thread was almost dead.... I should had wrongly clicked somewhere
a couple of days ago... So, I vanished... Now, I'm back, and lost!  :P

I have not the time, this evening, to read all the posts I missed.
But I will read them.

As I can see the very bass player  'Sandy' alias 'Dr Ringwood' alias 'Nul_Points' have not lost
his English sense of humor.. Why should he have?  ;D

@Devrim:
Please ask me about any youtube vid you are interested it.
I can download it and upload it on my website.
http://keepvid.com/ (http://keepvid.com/) is very usefull....

------------------------------------------------
Just for the fun of it, a new page: http://freenrg.info/The_Mess_4OU/ (http://freenrg.info/The_Mess_4OU/)

Best

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on June 13, 2008, 06:32:05 PM
Can anyone check these calculations, notsure if correct.

To heat 1.5 ltr of water from 14 deg celcius to 80 deg, theoretically should take 0.1151 Kw/h
Calculated as such:
(80-14)x1500=99000 cal
99000x4.2=415800 joules
415800/3600000= 0.1151 kh/h

So I tool my kettle and hooked it up to some metres and got the follwoing:
1.5 ltr from 14 deg to 80 deg in 261 sec with a voltage of 220 and a constant Amperage of 3.57
Therefore 220v x 3.57A = 785.4 watt sec
785.4 divide by 1000 = .7854 Kw sec
0.7854 divide by 3600 and x 261 = 0.0569 Kw/Hr

Divide the theoretical of 0.1151 and 0.0569 = 2.02

I can't believe my standard kettle has a COP over 2.

Where is my mistake ???

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 13, 2008, 07:16:20 PM
hi DOCV

...listen carefully because i'm only going to say this once....





SELL EVERYTHING YOU OWN & BUY SHARES IN YOUR KETTLE MANUFACTURER RIGHT NOW!!!!   ;D




...seriously, now, i think perhaps your current reading is wrong - 0.785KW seems a very low-powered kettle (mine is rated at approx. 2KW at 240V, so it would draw about 8.3A)

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on June 15, 2008, 01:52:26 AM


Hi guys,

I believe that this bell shaped things dived into water and 220 Volts AC wired
have a very strange behavior.

Why, when put on the water this way:

(http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Dispo_2.gif)

my 10 amps fuse blow out (in about 20-30 seconds) and do not blow out when put this way:

(http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Dispo_1.gif)

BTW : the COP is statistically the same.....

Else: you logically could think that any metallic piece(s) plunged into water and AC (Or DC) 'fed ' could heat this water with a COP that can be compared to a kettle COP. (about 0.9 - 0.95)... That seems not be true:  ???

(http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/COP05.gif)

More to come ASAP

Best
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on June 15, 2008, 10:10:10 AM
hi DOCV

...listen carefully because i'm only going to say this once....





SELL EVERYTHING YOU OWN & BUY SHARES IN YOUR KETTLE MANUFACTURER RIGHT NOW!!!!   ;D




...seriously, now, i think perhaps your current reading is wrong - 0.785KW seems a very low-powered kettle (mine is rated at approx. 2KW at 240V, so it would draw about 8.3A)

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc



If there is anything wrong you are probably right about the amps. I will go tripple check .... then I am going to sell everything and buy their shares.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: satchid on June 15, 2008, 11:22:19 AM
Dear All,
I am new at this heater forum an have been reading as much as I could find about this bell heater.
I have a question that sticks out high above the others to my opinion:

What makes the bell resonate? There is almost no current between the input wires. therefore is it supposed to resonate on the voltage alone? as a capacitor maybe?

Or is there a special resonator placed between the 2 bells that receives the 220V to vibrate the one bell at 1600Hz and the other maybe as well, and If the 1600Hz is a good frequensie to make the molecules in the water rub against each other rather violently, then there could be a solution.

Thanks for the good forums.

Willy



Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: gyulasun on June 15, 2008, 11:32:11 AM

Hi guys,

I believe that this bell shaped things dived into water and 220 Volts AC wired
have a very strange behavior.

Why, when put on the water this way:

(http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Dispo_2.gif)

my 10 amps fuse blow out (in about 20-30 seconds) and do not blow out when put this way:

(http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Dispo_1.gif)

BTW : the COP is statistically the same.....

Hi ND and all,

Is it possible that the H and O gas bubbles tend to accumulate under the bells and effectively isolate/reduce the inside active area of the bells in the second case?  This could explain a slightly less current consumption so the 10 Amp fuse is able to stay.  The gas bubbles can easily escape to surface in your case  #1.

rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 15, 2008, 12:02:20 PM
My sonic boiler is almost finished.I plan to test it first with 12V AC from transformer.

Assembly:
- two SS cups (bowls), cheap ones from India (check for sonic response )
- SS nuts and screws 3mm diameter
- SS rod 3 mm diameter
- one cover from old child bycycle
- one bell part from cheap black clock from Ikea
- rubber washers made by myself
- plastic washers used to separate transistor (for example 2N3055) from a heatsink (perfectly fit for 3 mm rod)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 15, 2008, 12:03:24 PM
 one cover from old child bycycle bell - of course !
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 15, 2008, 02:13:21 PM
Maybe  you know about this already but I came across this bit of info which is
related to our topic.

 Stan Meyers demo cell has 9 tube sets.

The inner tubes are 0.5 inches in diameter and the outer tubes are 0.75 inches in diameter. The approximate spacing between his tubes is 3 mm. We do not believe Meyer used spacers in his demo cell and he in fact allowed his tubes to ring and this acoustic component that is being overlooked by most WFC researchers. We believe Stan cut slots on the outer tubes to match the frequency of the inner and outer pipes setting up a standing acoustic wave and we are working on a cell prototype that will incorporate these features.

Link : http://aquapulser.com/research.html

Wow, are we on something here? Everyone is talking about standing acoustic waves!
For efficient electrolysis or for efficient heating.

It seems like we have to sing to the water to make it do whatever we want to do.
I personally believe that we need to tell water what we need it to do for us.
"break into H and O", "heat up", "freeze" we just do not know how.



Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 15, 2008, 02:21:27 PM
One more thing.

I think we were on the right track when we were talking about
inner bell frequencies and distance from outer bell to get the standing wave,
sonoluminescence  etc.

It seems to me that we lost that focus lately.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: EMdevices on June 16, 2008, 01:31:23 AM
I'm taking a break from the TPU research  (just for tonight  :)  )   and read this whole thread.

Here's some comments.

1)  The patent link does not work for me (file not found), can somebody repost it, or upload the file?

2)  Nice work and debate guys,  I enjoyed the experiments posted.

3)  Seeing the youtube video of a simular heating device (using stack of plates), reinforces my belief  (see next section)


Personal Opinion:

1)  The main heating energy comes from electricity, however, sonic and convection flows play an important role as follows:

2)  When molecules vaporize and change states from liquid to gas,  a large amount of heat is extracted from the liquid, so energy is escaping in the air and is useless in heating the water. (latent energy of vaporization)

3)  To combat this problem,  water can be heated under high pressure to change its behavior on the Phase state charts, and the whole liquid volume can be brought up in temperature much more efficiently (less heat needed)  High altitude cooking uses the pressure cooker for this purpose since boiling sets in at a much lower temperature then 100 deg C.

4)  These aspects are perhaps at work in the Davey device, since the way the cups are inverted in his heater should tell the intelligent engineer that there is heat transfer occurring between the heated bubbles and the metal spheres (tempeture almost equal to the water temperature) and quite a bit of agitation is occurring that no doubt is aided by the vibration of the spheres to facilitate this heat transfer. 

5)  Sonic energy  (which plays perhaps a bigger role in the Thrapp device) can compress the water and prevent the formation of bubbles to a greater extent, however in the Davey device I'm inclined to believe the gentle vibrations play a bigger role in mixing and agitating the water bubble combination.

6) As a farther example, consider a device that boils water between two electrodes at the bottom of a metallic tube immersed in water, and as the bubbles rise through the tube they have a chance to equalize in temperature as they flow along the narrow tube surface, very much like a heat exchanger.  The tube can be long and winding designed from a heat exchanger perspective.  This will distribute the heat to the water much more rapidly.  (remember bubbles of steam are quite hot and the transfer of heat by conduction is minimal so once they hit the surface the energy is lost which could have heated the rest of the water)

So, in conclusion the Deavy device is a rapid water heater using electricity for power, and effectively preventing boiling heat loss from it's localized heating area (electrodes), by passing the bubbles along the surface of a metallic surface for efficient heat exchange.
 
I'll check back periodically....

EM
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 16, 2008, 08:58:34 AM
4)  ...the way the cups are inverted in his heater should tell the intelligent engineer that there is heat transfer occurring between the heated bubbles and the metal spheres ... 

hi EM

...hmmmm, i think the 'intelligent engineer' would look at NerzhDishuals results (replies #197 & #200) posted with diagrams,  see that the COP is approx 1 regardless  of which way the 'bells' are oriented, and realise that "the way the cups are inverted in [Davey's] heater" makes absolutely no difference to the efficiency!



so returning to the question of heat transfer from bubbles to water (and also, therefore, to elements) - both the Patent and Davey's later design enclose  the electrodes to enhance the heat transfer process, prolonging electrical & physical contact between electrodes and the volume of water currently getting heated, so the major bubbling activity doesn't force the water too far away from the electrodes too soon

this arrangement heats a small volume of water very rapidly before the amount of steam/major bubble activity forces the boiling water out of the top of the enclosure (directed safely downwards, of course!) 'sucking' cooler water into the base of the enclosure to start boiling the next small volume of water

COPS around 1 have already been achieved in ND's replication

so, the real questions to be answered - by experiment - on this thread are:-
 a) is there any additional anomalous heating here, due to sonic impact (eg. microcavitation, etc) on the water?
 b) is there any additional anomalous heating here, due to audio freq. standing waves?

these actions being caused by vibration of the electrodes (whether just mains freq. induced or at resonant freq. of the 'bell')

my own personal view is that in (b) the distances involved are too small and the turbulent activity too great (due to the vigourous boiling action) to sustain suitable  audio standing waves - BUT - i believe the possibility is still worth testing!


great experimentation, monsieur Dishual - and nice test kit, forest - keep it up, guys!

all the best, folks
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NewAge on June 16, 2008, 09:02:04 AM
I'm taking a break from the TPU research  (just for tonight  :)  )   and read this whole thread.

Here's some comments.

1)  The patent link does not work for me (file not found), can somebody repost it, or upload the file?
http://archive.beinsa.info/Heating/Peter%20Davey/92428.pdf
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 16, 2008, 09:17:56 AM
There is one astonishing fact about immersion heaters. My friend told me that he was using two SS razors to immediately boil water when he was in army long time ago. Surprisingly there was no single accident with blowed fuse ! Of course current used was enormous but that's another story...

After debating a little about Davey device we concluded that it may work like a heat pump or simply a water pump - by reoccuring areas of high and low pressure inside sphere and a proper size of inlet and outlet holes there may be many laws involved. For example for a moment when a steam is escaping out of the container there may be a low pressure area and a suction for cold water below . If inlet holes are many in small diameter then a cavitation is able to occur also. I see a resonance here mostly as a process to sustain that pump action and almos continuous steam generation inside sphere. Current required to sustain boiling point inside small area is not big, and this device seems to be working in impulse mode (large peak of current to boil water then a few moments when water is boiling by itself because of steam pressure and flow) . Interesting would be to test such working device with interrupted AC (pulse mode) - current usage could be further limited...
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 16, 2008, 09:32:45 AM
hi forest

yes, some very interesting & useful ideas there! hope you can get to try some of them out on your test-rig

also, on the interrupted AC possibility, i believe this is the most likely explanation for the Patent reinforcing the requirement for 'loose' electrodes - so they can make intermittent electrical contact when vibrated by the bubbling

good luck with the testing!
sandy
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 16, 2008, 01:42:59 PM
Something I think we shouldn't forget is that Davey as did John Keely noticed the fact that some objects vibrated at a distance when he played his sax would vibrate and that intrigued him. How could certain notes on the sax vibrate certain object etc. John used the example of the train passing at a distance while he was in church and noticing some glass windows vibrating. This showed a very efficient energy transfer that seems to be only explained by resonance. I think this is the key to the efficient energy transfer of the mains to the bells to the water. The same as pushing a swing. We have to push the bell with it's natural frequency.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: EMdevices on June 16, 2008, 03:48:19 PM
thanks for that patent NewAge,   
Sandy I looked at the results NerzhDishuals obtained, very good work there, yes there seems to be not much difference, interesting..


I was just thinking,  if the intent is to prevent the microcavitation due to boiling, imagine what happens if the cavitation occurs at the focal point of a sphere.   As each buble explodes into being and forms,  it sends out spherical waves outward since it displaces water, but here's the catch, the waves reflect right back and focus in the center raising the pressure and possibly re-compresing the bubbles to some extent making it harder to form.... so I can see how sonic action can be occuring and can be beneficial.... hmmmm ....    I got to look for the Thrapp heater thread and see what's being discussed there...


Oh, another thought,  on the other hand if we do want rapid cavitation to occur,  the vibrations of a plate explain that perfectly.  Imagine a plate in water and you suddenly push it one way.  What happens to one side compared to the other?   Well the pressure increases on one side and decreases on the other.   Where will rapid boiling occur now?   The side with the lower pressure !!!   Hmmmmmmm, I think I need to get invovled and build something soon ......  (here's an experiment to show this, boil some water then lift the metal pot off the stove and wait untill the boiling stops, then hit the bottom with a hard object a spoon or hamer, not to hard to break or dent the pot, and you should see boiling reignite in certain spots)

I'm reading the patent and it sounds like intermittent contact can develop, but in one paragraph he does sound like he does not want this to occur...  here's what he says on page 5 mid way ,  "Various methods can be employed satisfactorily in effecting and maintaining an electrical connection...."

EM

P.S.  I just finished reading the whole patent, and I'm dissipointed that he doesn't address the benefits of electrode vibration.   He does not say anything about proper tuning for a certian note or anything of that nature, so it appears his technology is just rapid heating based on electrical contact with a conductive liquid,  and of course this is special since if there is no water, there is no danger of overheating, unlike coil based systems that continue to generate heat and if no cooling occurs the tempeture is driven too high and fires or meldown can occur.   I think  I'm going to leave this technology alone for now, seems to be nothing magical. It's our ignorance that makes us think it's special, but I bet a thermo engineer would set us straight...  seems like the profesor in the video was right, it's the electricity passing through water that heats it up ...  oh well....
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 16, 2008, 05:20:02 PM
  Sandy I looked at the results NerzhDishuals obtained, very good work there...

...I think  I'm going to leave this technology alone for now, seems to be nothing magical. It's our ignorance that makes us think it's special, but I bet a thermo engineer would set us straight...


...hmmmm, i wonder how much extra NerzhDishual's preliminary COP = 1 results would have to get, for them to be something magical?!?  ;)


keep on truckin', guys
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 16, 2008, 05:58:09 PM
I'm taking a break from the TPU research  (just for tonight  :)  )   and read this whole thread.

Personal Opinion:

1)  The main heating energy comes from electricity, however, sonic and convection flows play an important role as follows:

I'll check back periodically....

EM

Thank you very much EM. How's that TPU going? I think its about circulating the magnetic field to get electrical current right?

I do not agree with you on your thought that the main energy is the electricity.
Small amount of consumption is reported.
If it is, there is no point in pursuing this topic.
What's more, if this is not an urban myth the amount of water does not matter much.
This could only be true if the heating power comes from vibrations/resonance (or
something else we do not know thats there.)

I sometimes think that all these stuff (Meyer, TPU, Testatica, Davey etc.)
all are just urban myths to keep great minds like yours and other friends' here busy with
colorful dreams. Meanwhile we keep on buying gas from the price they want us to buy and electricity
from the price they like us to buy, with the hope that we will be free from all that nonsense soon.
Bedini etc. would be government agents in that case :)

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 16, 2008, 06:18:24 PM
P.S.  I just finished reading the whole patent, and I'm dissipointed that he doesn't address the benefits of electrode vibration.   He does not say anything about proper tuning for a certian note or anything of that nature, so it appears his technology is just rapid heating based on electrical contact with a conductive liquid,  and of course this is special since if there is no water, there is no danger of overheating, unlike coil based systems that continue to generate heat and if no cooling occurs the tempeture is driven too high and fires or meldown can occur.   I think  I'm going to leave this technology alone for now, seems to be nothing magical. It's our ignorance that makes us think it's special, but I bet a thermo engineer would set us straight...  seems like the profesor in the video was right, it's the electricity passing through water that heats it up ...  oh well....

Remember that we are talking about a 1945 patent. OU is not an issue there. There could be many
other reasons why the tuning etc. has not been mentioned. Many patents keep some secrets.
Also, he most probably upgraded the gadget after filing this patent.

To me, what we have been talking about is interesting. I will continue believing this to be true
until someone or I build(s) a device just like Daveys' tune(s) the inner bell and then adjust(s) the distance
from the outer bell properly and do(es) an experiment that proves that there is no magic here.


Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: EMdevices on June 16, 2008, 07:54:39 PM
Personally I would say  a COP > 1.5 or so,  at least.     Why?  Because a 1.02 or 1.09 or 0.98 COP, given the inprecision of the measurement equipment is not enough to make a case of OU if the uncertainty in the measuring equipment is not determined rigurously.  In a serious scientific writeup, complete with uncertainty calulations ,  I would get excited at even a 1.00001 COP,  but from a backyard tinkerer like myself and NerzhDishual,  you better throw in a heafty margin of error   LOL   :)

He thinks he's within the watt meters precision, perhaps he is but I doubt it...uncertinty calculations are quite involved from what I can remember and require propagating the uncertinaty through the calculations (if calculating something)

Quote
We are  beyond the precision of the  watt meter. Uncertainty calculations should had been performed


...hmmmm, i wonder how much extra NerzhDishual's preliminary COP = 1 results would have to get, for them to be something magical?!?  ;)


keep on truckin', guys
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 16, 2008, 11:42:33 PM
Personally I would say  a COP > 1.5 or so,  at least.     Why?  Because a 1.02 or 1.09 or 0.98 COP, given the inprecision of the measurement equipment is not enough to make a case of OU if the uncertainty in the measuring equipment is not determined rigurously.  In a serious scientific writeup, complete with uncertainty calulations ,  I would get excited at even a 1.00001 COP,  but from a backyard tinkerer like myself and NerzhDishual,  you better throw in a heafty margin of error   LOL   :)

LOL  ...i was teasing you EM!  ;) 

NerzhDishual has only just started experimenting with this device & already he's getting COPs just either side of 1 - i think we all realise that more investigation & greater precision will be needed

however, using the very same argument ("given the inprecision of the measurement equipment...etc", you cannot state with certainty that more accurate results will necessarily show COP < 1 either

it would be negligent of us to walk away from finding out which is true!

be well, take care all
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 16, 2008, 11:49:08 PM
Well, I decided to have a shot at this.  No bells available, so I went with two SS measures, one inside the other (yep, I've been raiding the kitchen again :))  Working with 230V AC, I started out with a 5A fuse, and was quite surprised that it didn't blow - at first!  When the water begins to boil, the current increases big-time, and it blew.  Exchanging this for a 13A solved the problem...

Some results:

My electric kettle is rated between 1850-2200W and with a full-load of about 1.75L, it takes 320 seconds to boil.  Using my gizmo, the same quantity takes 105 seconds.  So no instant-boiling...  Unfortunately, I don't have a clamp meter, and although my multi-meter's fuse is rated to 10A, I didn't want to risk blowing it, so no current reading.  However, as both the kettle and the gizmo use 13A fuses, and the kettles rated power usage is about 10A, I think it is reasonable to assume that even my first attempt is more efficient power-wise - at least that's my take on it!  I tried various things such as leaving the inner part loose, and a few attempts at adjusting its placing, but it didn't seem to have any effect.  Neither did the way it was orientated in the water, though with no holes to let the bubbles out, I tested it right-side-up most of the time...

My first impression is that maybe it is just more efficient to boil water this way...

(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/Sprocket_06/Photo-0113.jpg)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on June 17, 2008, 12:47:38 AM
SPROCKET   NICE thats a BIG difference   you going to put an in line meter on both   Chet  [ silly question]
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 17, 2008, 01:14:33 AM
Well, I decided to have a shot at this.  No bells available, so I went with two SS measures, one inside the other
...
My electric kettle is rated between 1850-2200W and with a full-load of about 1.75L, it takes 320 seconds to boil.  Using my gizmo, the same quantity takes 105 seconds.
...
I tried various things such as leaving the inner part loose, and a few attempts at adjusting its placing, but it didn't seem to have any effect.  Neither did the way it was orientated in the water, though with no holes to let the bubbles out, I tested it right-side-up most of the time...

supports ND's findings on orientation & looseness


Working with 230V AC, I started out with a 5A fuse, and was quite surprised that it didn't blow - at first!  When the water begins to boil, the current increases big-time, and it blew.  Exchanging this for a 13A solved the problem...

that's very interesting, because you'ld expect the current to go down when bubbles started reducing resistive water path between electrodes!


My first impression is that maybe it is just more efficient to boil water this way...

NerzhDishual measured his kettle at 94% efficient, i believe - so if your test-rig was "maybe ... just more efficient to boil water" that might only leave a few % margin for it to be better, before it starts getting into OU territory!

i think you'll find efficiency can be increased more still by having the live & neutral electrodes almost completely enclosed inside an earthed casing - ie. a vented 'boiling chamber'

forest's results should be interesting in that area

i hope forest's sphere is vented - and not towards him!!

nice testing Sprocket!!

all the best
sandy

<b>Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site:</b>  <b>http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc</b>
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 17, 2008, 03:54:23 AM
SPROCKET   NICE thats a BIG difference   you going to put an in line meter on both   Chet  [ silly question]

Chet, as I mentioned, I am not willing to risk blowing the fuse in my Fluke meter, so current readings will have to wait till I get a clamp meter - actually bought a really cheap one six months ago but it didn't work, so I opted for a refund rather than swapping for another...

Time to go shopping again. :)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 17, 2008, 04:34:37 AM
@nul-points - that was my next question, how efficient is your average kettle.  Wikipedia suggests over 90% so ND's measurment is likely correct.  Presuming my kettle has a 95% efficiency, (@ more then 15 yo, I doubt it!) at the very least, it takes half the time to boil the same amount of water as the kettle does, which means that it should be using twice the current - which isn't possible as they both have 13A fuses!  btw, I decided to see how long it would take almost 2L of water to boil in a plastic coke bottle with the top chopped off - got to 115sec when water started pouring out as the bottle melted - won't try that again!!! :D  So, some suitable glassware is also on my shopping -list...

Anyway, been playing some more.  Had a silly urge to see what would happen with a 3A fuse - 5 secs after switch on, it blew, so it clearly draws more than 3 amps! :D  Swapped out the inner 'bell' for a larger one (see 'dark' pic.) - couldn't detect any difference...

(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/Sprocket_06/Photo-0114.jpg)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 17, 2008, 09:15:07 AM
again, nice follow up!

i think metered current readings are going to be necessary before the testing goes too much further

if the fuses you're blowing are physical and not circuit-breaker type, then they will have a finite time to blow if they're at, or not too much above, their rated current - this could make it look like the current is below the rating at start of test & then look like it's increased dramatically to blow fuse after some number of seconds into the test

i think it's quite significant that two sets of results have come in with strong indication of very high efficiency and yet there has been no attempt at 'tuning' for things like standing waves, electrode resonance or microcavitation

looking forward to hearing forest's results with enclosed electrodes - i can't see enough of his test-rig in the photo to see if it is vented - this will be very important for his safety - not just improved efficiency

all the best
sandy
<b> (http://Doc Ringwood website </b>[/color)]Doc Ringwood website </b>[/color][/size][/font][/url] <b>http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc</b>
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 17, 2008, 02:29:18 PM
Well, I decided to have a shot at this.  No bells available, so I went with two SS measures, one inside the other (yep, I've been raiding the kitchen again :))  Working with 230V AC, I started out with a 5A fuse, and was quite surprised that it didn't blow - at first!  When the water begins to boil, the current increases big-time, and it blew.  Exchanging this for a 13A solved the problem...

Some results:

My electric kettle is rated between 1850-2200W and with a full-load of about 1.75L, it takes 320 seconds to boil.  Using my gizmo, the same quantity takes 105 seconds.  So no instant-boiling...  Unfortunately, I don't have a clamp meter, and although my multi-meter's fuse is rated to 10A, I didn't want to risk blowing it, so no current reading.  However, as both the kettle and the gizmo use 13A fuses, and the kettles rated power usage is about 10A, I think it is reasonable to assume that even my first attempt is more efficient power-wise - at least that's my take on it!  I tried various things such as leaving the inner part loose, and a few attempts at adjusting its placing, but it didn't seem to have any effect.  Neither did the way it was orientated in the water, though with no holes to let the bubbles out, I tested it right-side-up most of the time...

My first impression is that maybe it is just more efficient to boil water this way...


These results look very encouraging.
Your kettle must be drawing around 8-9amps the whole time during 320 secs.
We do not know what the device is drawing but less then 10amps as the fuse did not blow.
There is a 1/3 difference in time and even if the efficiency of the kettle is 50% then we are talking about a COP of 1.5
How's that EM ?  ::)
Moreover we do not know if the device drew a steady 9-10amps  the whole time it worked.

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 17, 2008, 04:52:30 PM
hi Dev

i think the final fuse on the test-rig was 13A, not 10

maybe a retest with 10A fuse would be a good follow-up, though?

best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: EMdevices on June 17, 2008, 05:32:58 PM
I'm no expert on the resistive properties of water and how they vary with Temperature, Salt content, other ions, turbulence, etc..,  but it also surprises me a bit that there seems to be a higher current draw once boiling set in.  Considering just a simple model of resistance that depends on the surface area (and other factors of course, like spacing of the plates, etc..)  the presence of bubbles would indicate less electrode surface exposed to the conductive water, so resistance should be higher (assuming the hot steam filled bubles are not more conductive than water) however this does not seem to be the case from Sprocket's experiment, and we can speculate quite a bit why it's not, but I suspect we can find an answer in the scientific literature as I'm sure others have done carefull research into boiling. 

Years ago I was invovled (for a short while) with microgravity research.  We would drop an experiment from a great height (a few stories) and while it was in free fall , hence microgravity, we would run the experiment which consisted of boiling water and filming it with video cameras mounted on the experiment and recording everything.   I believe later on they got this experiment to fly on the space shuttle.    So anyway, I'm sure lots of scientists have investigated boiling and I'm quite sure this same type of boiling, utilizing the conduction properties of water, has been looked at.  Perhaps somebody with a membership at ASME or other engineering organization can do a search and see what comes up.

Anyway, even if these heaters are no OU, I would still like to build a small contraption like this Davey heater so I can heat up the water in a glass or cup and make tea or other hot drink with minimum heat loss.   Microwaves are efficient, but some people have doubts about the health benefits (not me), and heating up water on a stove top is wastefull as you're leaking heat all over the place into the air.    I can also understand why the gov would not let him manufacture the device for safety reasons.  I like most people am a bit worried about sticking live wires in water.  What if a kid sticks his fingers in there?  what if the electrodes short?  House fire from bad wiring?, etc... etc..  however, with proper engineering, I'm sure a safe design can be contrived to eliminate all these concerns.   

nice work Sprocket,  I'll try to raid the kitchen as well, hopefully my wife won't notice :)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 17, 2008, 10:45:38 PM
@EMdevices - thanks!  btw, I'm single, so currently it's safe to plunder cutlery - you'd might do well to re-consider... :D

Speaking of which, I now also need a new Salt & Pepper set! (see pics).  This didn't work out as I hoped.  Despite having visions of emulating Mr. Davey's 'instant-boil' a glass of water antics, and it proving a bitch to build, it seems to perform worse than the first one.  Being a lot smaller, I was boiling a 400mL jar (a large cup approx.) of water in about 60 seconds - so definitely not 'instant'.  The inner bell has a large range of adjustment, but as before, it doesn't seem to effect boil-rate.

I'd like to elaborate a little on what I said about max current near/at boiling - when the first 5A fuse blew, it had been operating until it started to boil.  While this could have been a coincidence, I doubt it.  When using a 13A fuse (which doesn't blow) to boil a bowl of water, if the heater is moved around in the bowl so that no localised hot-spot builds up, everything remains 'quiet' as the water begins to heat.  However, if left in one spot in the bowl, or when all the water is boiling, and big bubbles are being produced, a loud mains-hum ('throbbing' in sync with the bubbles being produced) is heard.  Also, the lights can be seen to dim slightly at times. So though counter-intuitive, there's does seem to be a lot more current flowing at or near the boil-point.  But until I get a clamp meter, I won't know for sure...

(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/Sprocket_06/Photo-0116.jpg)

(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/Sprocket_06/Photo-0117.jpg)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: helmut on June 17, 2008, 11:18:58 PM
@Sprocket

This looks very good.

Good luck with this setup.

helmut
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 17, 2008, 11:30:43 PM
Oh boy, I've just made a discovery of sorts - a Davey heater will not boil distilled water!  I knew that distilled water needed an electrolyte for electrolysis, but I assumed that 230V @ 13A would just shrug off these minor inconveniences. Well, having just tried it, I can assure you it doesn't - without electrolyte, nothing happens!  As for my tap-water, well, my "good" results might be down to its 'strange' content as I reported in the electrolysis thread.  btw, the reason I checked with distilled water was because the same brown gunk seemed to be forming on the SS...

So, if a Davey Heater cannot boil all water, can it really be compared with a 'normal' heater?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on June 18, 2008, 12:47:03 PM
I am not sure if anyone has recognized this anomaly yet but I think there is more going on than daveys invention is telling us. If you take a look at the New Zealand Channel 3 report, Peter has two "lamp units" one brassy gold and the other is black. He starts the demonstartion with the brassy gold one. At the base of the unit there is a black spherical shaped object just as the wires join the unit. However on the black "lamp unit" this does not appear at all. The reason I see is that the base of the brassy/gold unit is too shallow to insert this sphere into it so it must remain on the outside. the black unit has a much bigger and deeper base so he can hide it inside.
The big question is what is this spherical shaped unit doing. A perfect case of misdirection. While we are all looking at the bowls and shapes and resonances, there is this little ball unit in the background that no one has noticed.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 18, 2008, 01:55:44 PM
ND's and Sprocket's results prove that if something works it will work in many ways/shapes.
The reason that there is no instant boiling and for high current consumption is according to
the myth the tunings.

None of the experimenters tuned the inner bell and when the inner bell in not tuned, the second
tuning (distance) does not have any importance.

All according to the myth.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 18, 2008, 06:40:44 PM
To tell the truth, I've lost all interest in this now, or at least till I get a clamp meter.  The realisation that the process is completely dependent on the type of water being boiled is a killer in my eyes, meaning that all replications will be subject to the vagries this will introduce.  Personally, I now have no doubt that a Davey heater will boil my tap-water much faster than a conventional heater, but as I reported in the DC electrolysis thread, my tap-water utterly destroys the SS in no time, so it has no practical applications in this part of the world.

btw, I also tried boiling distilled water with electrolyte added (bicarbonate of soda) - huge current flowed, so I pulled the plug rather than blow the fuse needlessly...
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 18, 2008, 06:49:24 PM
ND's and Sprocket's results prove that if something works it will work in many ways/shapes.
The reason that there is no instant boiling and for high current consumption is according to
the myth the tunings.

None of the experimenters tuned the inner bell and when the inner bell in not tuned, the second
tuning (distance) does not have any importance.

All according to the myth.

Hi.  I should just mention that my last creation had a nice 'dingggg...' off of it when struck with a piece of metal, and being a piston-type interference-fit construction is very easy to 'tune' - which I attempted to do by ear.  So, striking the outer dome, there was a point that was pretty easy to find where the inner one would also reverberate at its higher frequency.  Did nothing to speed up the heating process, at least as far as I could see.   Really, really need current measuring equipment for this though...
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 18, 2008, 08:53:07 PM
DOCV,

I haven't omitted this small little device attached to Davey lamp-like unit. That was my first thought and the reason why I tested transformer to lower voltage to 12V. I realized that step down voltage may be the key to avoid all potential dangers related to direct usage of main power.Obviously I did something wrong with my device or that wouldn't work that way.
Now I will concentrate my efford to second choice : direct immerse heating using mains power, however I'm a little scared about using it directly. Wish me luck!
According to some my other investigations of Peter Davey patent and video I think that there are many tips hidden in them. For example one of the most important tip is the knowledge that this heater does not work when not immersed in water,surely water MUST be REQUIRED PART of heating action.

My device is to large in my opinion but I wasn't able to find smaller SS bowls for casing assembly.Of course casing will be vented!
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on June 18, 2008, 09:12:31 PM
I have gone back and looked atthe video. The way he immerses the heater into the water which he does rather slowly. I think this is to ensure that a small amount of water enters the cavity to ensure a rapid boiling point is created by using brute force. Once this action starts there must be a draw of cold water through the bottom and hot water and bubles drawing out through thre top, this action is stimilating the resonance effect between the natual ac Hz and the tuned bowls. Once this starts the amps drop into a normal range of 2-4 amps. I don't believe that the bowls are loosly attached because if they were and either one touched would create a dead short.
I hooked up these sounds on an analyser and there is definately a beautiful resonance across the 50Hz modualting frequencies.
That little black ball that protrudes from the wires at the base bothers me, because it is doing something but not sure what at this stage. The best results I have achieved is a COP of 1 and maybe 1.1 but would need a watt meter to confirm.
What I can tell you is that the original patent is a red herring. The concept is there but he has had 50 years to modify it.
Tuning the bells doesn't improve efficiency, there is something more that i am missing. Will need to sleep on it for a few days to figure it out.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 18, 2008, 09:22:05 PM
 ;D

Thinking about Davey device I realized that it may be a tricky way to use a very little power to maintain heat action is such device. That way would not be mechanical or electrical mainly, but rather electromagnetic. It may look very strange or like a crazy idea but the only convertion from electrical to mechanical power (which is required to generate sound I suppose - sonic response of bells) is ELECTROMAGNET! But that is one problem - this device is quiet when not immersed in water. Water must change some electrical parameters of this device but I can't think about anything except resistance :-(

It tok me to the conception of mechanically forces cavitation and open a vast field of new experiments.I connected that discovery with my tests of Bedini monopole and I think I found a very valuable way to generate heat by fast mechanical vibrations.The only problem is to find how water absence stops them.

One of possible embodiment of this invention is to fix a very strong neo magnet in a quite strong SS flat stip mounted ONLY on one end. Placing a coil acting as strong electromagnet before that neo magnet at some distance and applying a fast pulses to coil would generate the same effect in my opinion like a rotating wheel with holes on outer edge if of course we properly place such holes on magnet, SS strip or coil core.

What if the inner bell is loosely mounted on a center rod in such way that it can jump and fall according to electromagnetic action between bells, caused by AC current flowing in conductors ? Wouldn't it produce changing pressure effect in space between bells ?  How we could obtain such effect ? I see it related to my experience with Bedini monopole : sometimes when the energy  is not taken up by pushing magnet the coil is tend to humm or hiss loudly and vibrate.

So my proposition is to check a specialt mounting of live wire on a inner bell which may cause it being like a CORE of elecromagnet !!!
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 18, 2008, 09:32:05 PM
Ha!  Wonderful day! I might found why this deice is quiet when not immersed in water.

The water surely closes the circuit which allows electromagnetic action, which after that causes sonic responce and cavitation.Pump action, direct heating by current ,cavitation - all are porobably involved in final result.

My proposition is to wind a few turns of live wire (not sure if insulated or not) around the inner bell. The only thing that bothers me is  patent which said something about using brass or copper tubing for electrodes, but theory is valuable and require some analysis and tests.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 18, 2008, 09:42:58 PM
Just to note,please: if you use my ideas with success remember I want to give theml for free to all people.I deny and forbid to patent any of them related to such embodiments and ideas I described on that forum.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 18, 2008, 09:59:03 PM
Another realisation - using distilled water and electrolyte will allow me to control the current used, so I can measure it with the meter!!! (10A max.)

So some hard-figures:

Started with approx. 350-400mL of distilled water, room temp, with a microscopic amount of of sodium bicarbonate added, and used the 'little' Davey heater.  It took 150 seconds to boil, (rather, I stopped it after that, 'cos it was boiling nicely) starting out drawing just under 3A @ 230V AC, climbing to a max. of 4.2A leading up to boiling, before finally dropping back to a little above 3A when boiling!

Efficiency anyone???
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on June 18, 2008, 10:01:09 PM
This electromagent theory sounds plausable, maybe thats why some earlier pictures of the inner bell have scouring rings near the end of the bell. On the other hand peter is a simple musician and am not sure of his capabilities of elctromagnetism. Some test would prove this theory or not, i come back to the inventor... simplicity the universe is music!!!!
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on June 18, 2008, 11:55:38 PM
Another realisation - using distilled water and electrolyte will allow me to control the current used, so I can measure it with the meter!!! (10A max.)

So some hard-figures:

Started with approx. 350-400mL of distilled water, room temp, with a microscopic amount of of sodium bicarbonate added, and used the 'little' Davey heater.  It took 150 seconds to boil, (rather, I stopped it after that, 'cos it was boiling nicely) starting out drawing just under 3A @ 230V AC, climbing to a max. of 4.2A leading up to boiling, before finally dropping back to a little above 3A when boiling!

Efficiency anyone???

To be precise you needto weigh the water so the exact ml are measured. Also the starting water temp and end water temp. Not all water boils at 100 deg, depends where you live. Also don't assume you are receiving 230v this needs to be measured before and after test. If you have a watt meter, then voltage and amp measurements are unecessary.
Also check if amps are gradual rise with water temp and do they jump around when the bubbling starts

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 19, 2008, 01:00:16 AM

To be precise you needto weigh the water so the exact ml are measured. Also the starting water temp and end water temp. Not all water boils at 100 deg, depends where you live. Also don't assume you are receiving 230v this needs to be measured before and after test. If you have a watt meter, then voltage and amp measurements are unecessary.
Also check if amps are gradual rise with water temp and do they jump around when the bubbling starts

Hi.  Yes, most of what you say, I already realised, but a ball-park figure was all I was expecting.   Typical UK climate, voltage never seems to vary from 225V RMS, and as I mentioned, current grew progressively from about 2.9A to max-out at 4.2A at the onset of boiling, before falling again to 3.1A when boiling vigorously.

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: simon155 on June 19, 2008, 09:47:08 AM
Pete - A suggestion for ya:

Build several devices and attach em to the side of a sealed tank. Don't forget to insulate it well. Use rechargable batteries for the input. Stick turbines in the top and mop up any power produced, feeding the water back into the tank when cooled. Pipe the power back into the rechargable batteries.

If you get it working and nicely tuned, stick it in a car. If they aren't interested in listening to an energy efficient kettle, see if you can solve the world's fuel crisis on day one ;o)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: simon155 on June 19, 2008, 11:04:40 AM
You'd have to ask for someone who deals with law on this, but if they are trying to stop you marketing your invention, look into selling the "parts" and attaching your "design" as a free "newsletter". Is this a way to escape from marketing the finished product, and still make it available?

Sure there's got to be a hefty legal mess somewhere but must be a way round it for ya.

Good luck!
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 19, 2008, 01:18:58 PM
;D

Thinking about Davey device I realized that it may be a tricky way to use a very little power to maintain heat action is such device. That way would not be mechanical or electrical mainly, but rather electromagnetic. It may look very strange or like a crazy idea but the only convertion from electrical to mechanical power (which is required to generate sound I suppose - sonic response of bells) is ELECTROMAGNET!

I must disagree. You could get another device that heats water with the setup you are describing.
But that will not be Davey's device.

Lets not make things more complicated then they are.
Davey => Sax player => music => frequency => mains  => simple device using bells



Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 19, 2008, 01:35:35 PM
Hi.  I should just mention that my last creation had a nice 'dingggg...' off of it when struck with a piece of metal, and being a piston-type interference-fit construction is very easy to 'tune' - which I attempted to do by ear.  So, striking the outer dome, there was a point that was pretty easy to find where the inner one would also reverberate at its higher frequency.  Did nothing to speed up the heating process, at least as far as I could see.   Really, really need current measuring equipment for this though...

I personally appreciate your experiments. But the text that we have on the construction of the device describes
a 3.5 cm inner bell ground to a multiple of mains frequency and a 4.5 cm outer bell with which the distance
is adjusted by trial and error.

If I am not mistaken no one did that so far and still there are some encouraging results.
Lets just do what it says in the book and if it still does not perform as expected,
lets get disappointed then.

If you get scum from SS use copper. We are not at the point where we should give up
on this yet.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on June 19, 2008, 03:49:55 PM
Just to note,please: if you use my ideas with success remember I want to give theml for free to all people.I deny and forbid to patent any of them related to such embodiments and ideas I described on that forum.
Your posts will amount to "Prior Art", and no patent dated after the date of
your posts will be granted if they depend on stuff which you have disclosed.
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on June 19, 2008, 04:11:19 PM
Hi.  Yes, most of what you say, I already realised, but a ball-park figure was all I was expecting.   Typical UK climate, voltage never seems to vary from 225V RMS, and as I mentioned, current grew progressively from about 2.9A to max-out at 4.2A at the onset of boiling, before falling again to 3.1A when boiling vigorously.



Hi sprocket then all I need is a starting temp to give you a basic COP
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 19, 2008, 10:40:40 PM
Now,I know how Davey devices looks like. I haven't been able to remind this shape but now I know. It looks like a current based acoustic transducer. Strange.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 19, 2008, 10:41:11 PM
Sorry.Double posting by mistake
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 19, 2008, 10:57:54 PM
Hi sprocket then all I need is a starting temp to give you a basic COP


Air temp atm is 15 Celcius, which sounds about right.

Doing a quick comparasion between my last results and my kettle results doesn't inspire confidence (assuming my rough calculation is ok)

1.7L tap-water => avg power required = 2,000W * 320 secs (time to boil) = 640,000 joules.
400mL Distilled water => avg power required = (Avg Current) 4A * 230V (AC mains) *  150 (time to boil) = 138,000
Adjusting for different amounts of water => 138,000 * 1700 / 400 = 586,500 joules

640,000 versus 586,000 - Not a big difference...

Out of curiousity, I have just boiled the same 400mL of distilled water, then 400mL of tap-water in the kettle - both took 89 seconds.

400mL distilled water => 2000 * 89 sec = 178,000 joules

So, it is about 29% more efficient than my clapped-out kettle.

Finally, seeing that the currents being drawn are fairly low, I chanced boiling 400mL of tap-water with my Davey heater, with meter attached.  Time taken was 70 seconds.  Current starts at 4A, raises steadily, maxing at 7.8A on meter before falling to between 5.5-6.5A when boiling.  There is a lot of fluctuation in current, in sync with the bubbles being produced.

400mL tap-water => 7.8 * 230 * 70 = 125580 joules

The higher conductivity of my (crappy) tap-water seems to improve efficiency (42%) relative to my kettle.

All assuming my math is correct! :D
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: enki09 on June 20, 2008, 02:57:16 AM
I was doing this like 5 years ago and posting about it on this list and others. It is very simple and commercial versions of this type of device are called "Electrode Boilers" (google it).

The way I did it was to put two stainless electrodes in a jar of pure water and then add maybe 5 or 6 drops of an electrolyte like NaOH or H2SO4. I hooked the electrodes up to standard 110v wall socket power and to ground. I could boil a quart of water in 60 seconds with virtually zero current through the jar.

Theory is that the ac wave causes the water molecules to spin around really fast and the heat energy produced is then due to friction between the atoms as they spin.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 20, 2008, 04:08:16 AM
I was doing this like 5 years ago and posting about it on this list and others. It is very simple and commercial versions of this type of device are called "Electrode Boilers" (google it).

The way I did it was to put two stainless electrodes in a jar of pure water and then add maybe 5 or 6 drops of an electrolyte like NaOH or H2SO4. I hooked the electrodes up to standard 110v wall socket power and to ground. I could boil a quart of water in 60 seconds with virtually zero current through the jar.

Theory is that the ac wave causes the water molecules to spin around really fast and the heat energy produced is then due to friction between the atoms as they spin.

Damn, I wish you had posted this about a week ago - when I think of all the kettles of water I have boiled needlessly in the last few days :D

Never heard of them (and I expect most here have neither) and their 99.9% efficiency would account for the decrepencies I am seeing between results.  But, I don't understand what you mean by "zero current through the jar" - electrode boilers are just very efficient, they'd be OU with zero current...

Back to Mr. Davey - is there any documentation etc. that states what power his heaters were proported to run at - I have seen nothing about this.  It seems to me like it could have been an electrode boiler...
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: enki09 on June 20, 2008, 04:26:44 AM
Without any electrolyte in the cells it took longer to boil. With just a bit it worked really well. But that was AC not DC current and there seemed to be a tiny bit of electrolysis going on but this isn't verified. There were tiny streams of bubbles coming from the sharp corner points of my flat, stainless electrodes. However these bubbles could have been due to boiling of the water at those points. I say this because the electromagnetic lines of force are most concentrated at such sharp points and the heating effect could have been most rapid at these points.

Yes, I think they Davey thing is just an electrode boiler because it seems to fit the description and the results are what would be expected from one.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: enki09 on June 20, 2008, 04:31:50 AM
Just another comment on your reply. Even if there were zero current through the cell it would not be OU. Why? Because you have to take into account the energy that is required to keep the 60hz signal from the AC line pulsing through the cell. You can do some really wild stuff with water and magnets and electricity. I was doing a lot of active experimentation and recording it on my old website here:

http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870

Check out the "My Ideas" pages if you want. I have come a long way since then but it was fun.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 20, 2008, 05:21:36 AM
Just another comment on your reply. Even if there were zero current through the cell it would not be OU. Why? Because you have to take into account the energy that is required to keep the 60hz signal from the AC line pulsing through the cell. You can do some really wild stuff with water and magnets and electricity. I was doing a lot of active experimentation and recording it on my old website here:

http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870

Check out the "My Ideas" pages if you want. I have come a long way since then but it was fun.


Thanks for the link - I actually stumbled onto the 'permanent magnets effecting electrolysis' page via google just yesterday! :)

I'm confused on the zero current issue - I have been doing almost exactly as you describe and have measured 6-8 amps flowing.  Put another way, do you agree that the power used in your setup was similar to that used by a kettle?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: enki09 on June 20, 2008, 05:45:05 AM
Ok, well pure water is an insulator and acts as a dielectric. So the amount of current that you have flowing in a cell is in direct proportion to the amount of electrolyte that has been added to the water. The less electrolyte, the lower the current flow. I was trying to hold the current as low as I could and still get the heating effect since the less current that is used the less power is consumed.

Of course if you are producing H2 and O2 at the same time then you can say that the power (or at least some of it) that is being used is actually stored in the form of potential chemical energy represented by the H2 and O2 gases
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 20, 2008, 06:31:53 AM
But one of my 'revelations' here had to do with having tried to boil pure distilled water, nothing happened - no current (or practically none) and no heating of the water took place.  Having already experimented with electrolysis, I knew that with DC no current would flow with out electrolyte, but presumed it would be different with AC (it wasn't!).  Upon adding a microscopic amount of baking soda, it was pulling 3-6 amps.  So I now understand why you'd get no current flowiing with pure water, I just don't understand how you were managing to boil it - sounds like the Davey 'magic' we are seeking here!  Also, there's no HHO of consequence being produced in my mains AC setups.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 20, 2008, 07:20:13 AM
enki09,

"The Anode (d) goes directly to ground (g) in the breaker box. There is a 10 amp circuit breaker between the Anode and the ground and a 20 amp breaker in the breaker box on the switch side."

very interesting, did you tested it without circuit breakers ? also : how long or big were your wires , or was there a capacitance effect in wires , maybe a circuit breaker box contained capacitor ?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 20, 2008, 07:37:16 AM
ok.I think that if there is some secret hidden here then it must be an electric circuit which cause sonic response in cell container (spherical). Eighter it is electromagnet action or Davey device is purely current tranducer which generated concentrated sound waves causing high pressure in the focal point.
First I must l test purely resistance immersion heater method because transducer way is more complicated. Depending on inner bell curvature there will be different focal point of interferencing sound waves. Good news is that only a minimal power is required for transducer.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: enki09 on June 20, 2008, 08:39:58 AM
12-10 wire, the electrodes were stainless sheets and pretty thin.

I took it straight to ground at first but then used a breaker just to be safe.

It isn't magic. With or without current flow you still have the electromagnetic wave through the cell spinning the water. The ground electrode is of a constant charge and the "hot" electrode is cycling through the range of maximum to minimum charge 60 times per second. You see? Even with no current the wave is present in the water and could spin the molecules.

The cell in that case is acting like a water capacitor.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 20, 2008, 03:07:10 PM
I could boil a quart of water in 60 seconds with virtually zero current through the jar.
----------------------------------------
Even if there were zero current through the cell it would not be OU. Why? Because
you have to take into account the energy that is required to keep the 60hz signal from
 the AC line pulsing through the cell.
--------------------------------------
With or without current flow you still have the electromagnetic wave through the cell spinning the water. The ground electrode is of a constant charge and the "hot" electrode is cycling through the range of maximum to minimum charge 60 times per second. You see? Even with no current the wave is present in the water and could spin the molecules.

@Enki09 very useful information. So where is the electrical energy consumed then?

Electrmagnetic wave is spinning the water ok. Good point. But in Davey's device  there must be also
acoustic energy.

As these electrode heaters are 99.9% efficient, adding the acoustic energy
into the equation may be the jump factor into the OU territory.

Until now I believe our experimenters have realised the electromagnetic energy transfer
into the water. Now it is upto adding the acoustic part of it.

I came accross the following little bit of info:
    Heat: this is the energy of vibrating particles in a substance.
   Sound: this is the energy of vibrating particles.

Interesting?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 20, 2008, 03:07:37 PM

I could boil a quart of water in 60 seconds with virtually zero current through the jar.
----------------------------------------
Even if there were zero current through the cell it would not be OU. Why? Because
you have to take into account the energy that is required to keep the 60hz signal from
 the AC line pulsing through the cell.
--------------------------------------
With or without current flow you still have the electromagnetic wave through the cell spinning the water. The ground electrode is of a constant charge and the "hot" electrode is cycling through the range of maximum to minimum charge 60 times per second. You see? Even with no current the wave is present in the water and could spin the molecules.


@Enki09 very useful information. So where is the electrical energy consumed then?

Electrmagnetic wave is spinning the water ok. Good point. But in Davey's device  there must be also
acoustic energy.

As these electrode heaters are 99.9% efficient, adding the acoustic energy
into the equation may be the jump factor into the OU territory.

Until now I believe our experimenters have realised the electromagnetic energy transfer
into the water. Now it is upto adding the acoustic part of it.

I came accross the following little bit of info:
    Heat: this is the energy of vibrating particles in a substance.
   Sound: this is the energy of vibrating particles.

Interesting?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 20, 2008, 03:22:36 PM
To all who are interested : read patent no 3230506 E.J. Hellund "Pressure pulsation generator"

There is described a sonic tranducer and an electric circuit drawing it by capacitor discharge over the spark gap.The result are concentrated acoustic waves generating high pressure in focal point.Look at all embodiments pictures.Isn't that similar to Davey or even Thrapp devices ?

That's the patent I would like to test later.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 20, 2008, 03:24:05 PM
i was looking into the capacitive possibilities of water recently, with regard to another project

i read, on a Physics Forum, a question about the dielectric nature of water - the answer was along the lines of:
  "water is a a good dielectric - however, it also exhibits highly mobile ion activity making it conduct easily; when it changes state to ice, then the ion mobility decreases & the dielectric nature comes back to the fore"

am i right in thinking that 'distilled' water is also referred to as 'de-ionised' water?

if so, then this would explain a difference in behavior between 'tap' water & 'distilled', where the water is effectively becoming part of a capacitor formed between the live & neutral electrodes

adding some electrolyte into the de-ionised water would turn the arrangement from a non-polarised capacitance to a polarised one (ie. electrolytic capacitor)

these recent discoveries (and previous accounts) are moving the action of the Davey Heater in an interesting new direction

Harold Aspden had some enlightening things to say about his belief that the effect of an electric field between capacitor plates imparted angular-momentem to the crystal-lattice type structure making up the background fabric of the universe - the Vacuum Medium, in Quantum Physics terms (aka the 'aether' in past thinking)

the angular momentum could then be dissipated as energy to a local system and appear as anomalous, additional energy - ie 'free energy'/overunity operation

Aspden believed this electric field / angular-momentum effect would be significantly strengthened by using concentric/circular capacitors (eg. Davey's patent's cyclinders; concentric bells?)

it was his writings that inspired me to start my own investigation of possible overunity operation with switched-charge circuits using spiral-rolled electrolytic capacitors - now showing results with an (energy expended) / (energy supplied) ratio of 1.2

great work all

best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 20, 2008, 04:26:11 PM
Sandy is there a way to make use of that 1.2?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 20, 2008, 09:26:41 PM
Attempting to take this up a level, so I sampled my inner bell's sound, found the fundamental frequency was pretty close to 1000Hz (933Hz), so ground it down till I got closer.  As you can see, not an ideal bell by any means, and hitting the magic 1000 proved illusive!  But I did look for effects between 990 -> 1010Hz with no success.  There's also a little soundfile attached - the bells sounds first, then a 1000Hz tone I generated for comparison.  As you can hear, (and see in pic.) they are pretty close.

So, question, am I right in thinking that 1000Hz is a harmonic of the 50Hz mains frequency?

(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/Sprocket_06/DaveyBell_1000HZ_Sound.jpg)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 20, 2008, 10:04:18 PM
The question is not if your bell resonate at 1000hz ,rather if a simple connection to AC is capable of force bell vibrations at all. I don't see it happens.

Is there a possible to build a spark gap for 220 - 400V ? How small should be  gap ? I'll try to build a circuit with 400V capacitor and spark gap as in patent mentioned by me.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 20, 2008, 10:39:25 PM
Well, the idea that the bell resonates at a harmonic of the mains frequency is the prevaling notion as to how the Davey heater might work, so if true, of course it matters that the bell resonates at a harmonic of the fundamental - in this case 1000Hz - as maximium power transfer will occur at a harmonic frequency...
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on June 21, 2008, 12:15:20 AM
Sandy is there a way to make use of that 1.2?

hi Dev

at the moment the experiment is a single pass: switch charge the output cap thro' a load & then discharge it thro same load - end of run - measure results

the next phase for me (and possibly for at least one other member) is to automate that process repetitively and confirm if it still delivers 1.2 under the new conditions - the output will then be a cap charge/discharge AC waveform, approx 2.7V pk-pk through a resistive load, for an 8V input, with a half-cycle of some tens of seconds

not a very useful output yet - still only an OU heater at this level!

however the new automation process will open the way to checking for OU & additional resonance at different operating frequencies, and possible transformer coupling etc

getting the output volts up by a factor of 3+ would mean we could go for self-sustaining attempts but that isn't practical at the moment

all the best
sandy



Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on June 21, 2008, 12:48:14 AM
Air temp atm is 15 Celcius, which sounds about right.

Doing a quick comparasion between my last results and my kettle results doesn't inspire confidence (assuming my rough calculation is ok)

1.7L tap-water => avg power required = 2,000W * 320 secs (time to boil) = 640,000 joules.
400mL Distilled water => avg power required = (Avg Current) 4A * 230V (AC mains) *  150 (time to boil) = 138,000
Adjusting for different amounts of water => 138,000 * 1700 / 400 = 586,500 joules

640,000 versus 586,000 - Not a big difference...

Out of curiousity, I have just boiled the same 400mL of distilled water, then 400mL of tap-water in the kettle - both took 89 seconds.

400mL distilled water => 2000 * 89 sec = 178,000 joules

So, it is about 29% more efficient than my clapped-out kettle.

Finally, seeing that the currents being drawn are fairly low, I chanced boiling 400mL of tap-water with my Davey heater, with meter attached.  Time taken was 70 seconds.  Current starts at 4A, raises steadily, maxing at 7.8A on meter before falling to between 5.5-6.5A when boiling.  There is a lot of fluctuation in current, in sync with the bubbles being produced.

400mL tap-water => 7.8 * 230 * 70 = 125580 joules

The higher conductivity of my (crappy) tap-water seems to improve efficiency (42%) relative to my kettle.

All assuming my math is correct! :D
Hey Sprocket according to your last set of figures you're talking about a COP of 1.53.  When one gets figures like this it is time to get more serious about all the data.
Are you saying that :
Water Qty is 400ml
Start temp of water is 15 deg
End Temp is 100 deg
Time taken is 70 sec
And avg amps is 5.9 (start of 4 and end of 7.9)
If so COP is 1.53
Are you using a temperature guage on the water?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on June 21, 2008, 01:27:05 AM

Hi guys,

Sorry for having disappeared. Very interresting posts...
I almost gave up but I'm motivated again..
------------------------------------------------
@EMdevices:
Yes, a COP about 1.5 (and tree times in a row!) would be interesting.
-----------------------------------------------
A couple of days ago (16/17 June), I tried other cups with thiner metal
"walls". I also tried to adjust the 2 cups distances or to build a device
with 2 similar cups. I have now almost 5 models of cups. I weighed my water
to check the accuracy of my measuring glass... Etc..
My results were discouraging with these new devices:  COPs between 0.81 and 0.91! :'(

The COPs are slightly underestimated because I do take into account the fact
that the cups are also heated. But a short calculation shows that, for
example, a 160 grams iron device is eqivalent to about 17 grams of water. Is it not?
----------------------------------------------------------
I also tried to make electrolysis with my cups, results:
No measurable gas with tap water. Bubbles appreared, but, obviously, my
plastic "cell" leak. Pictures to come.

With distilled water + baking soda:
12 volts DC bat.
Amps consumption:
Begin= 8.8 A  - End = 10 A.
2 min O6 sec = 0.25 liters
3 min 50 sec  = 0.5  liters.
(3600/(3*60 + 50)) *0.5 = 7.8 litres/hour

Changing the polarity of the cups.
Amps consumption:
40" = 12.8 A
2 min 10 sec = 12.20 A
2 min 45 sec = 0.5 liters >>> (3600/(2*60+45)) *0.5= 10.9 liters/hour.
3 min = 11.8 amps

The water heat!!! I do not expect to run a landmover with that! ;D
----------------------------
@Sprocket:
You gave me and idea! Distilled water.... Thanks. I will test that...
----------------------------
@Enki09: thanks for all your 'inputs'.
----------------------------

Best
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 21, 2008, 02:56:01 AM
Attempting to take this up a level, so I sampled my inner bell's sound, found the fundamental frequency was pretty close to 1000Hz (933Hz), so ground it down till I got closer.  As you can see, not an ideal bell by any means, and hitting the magic 1000 proved illusive!  But I did look for effects between 990 -> 1010Hz with no success.  There's also a little soundfile attached - the bells sounds first, then a 1000Hz tone I generated for comparison.  As you can hear, (and see in pic.) they are pretty close.

So, question, am I right in thinking that 1000Hz is a harmonic of the 50Hz mains frequency?

(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/Sprocket_06/DaveyBell_1000HZ_Sound.jpg)

The octave harmonics of 50Hz would be 100Hz, 200Hz, 400Hz, 800Hz, 1600Hz, 3200Hz, etc

I don't think it's the electricity that vibrates the bell but the electricity passing through the water at 60Hz having a 60Hz contraction expansion which is then aided by the bells also naturally vibrating at that same frequency. So it's the electricity to the water to the bell that the vibration propagates. The water becomes the hammer to the bell.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 21, 2008, 03:33:18 AM
Hey Sprocket according to your last set of figures you're talking about a COP of 1.53.  When one gets figures like this it is time to get more serious about all the data.
Are you saying that :
Water Qty is 400ml
Start temp of water is 15 deg
End Temp is 100 deg
Time taken is 70 sec
And avg amps is 5.9 (start of 4 and end of 7.9)
If so COP is 1.53
Are you using a temperature guage on the water?

Make no mistake, I do not have a well-equipped lab here, so tend to err on the side of caution with regard to the measurments (ie. use max. rather than avg. current in calcs).  The 400mL is accurate, the start temp was current air temp at time of test, and the end boil-time taken from visual queues - vigorous boiling!

What does my kettle COP come to based on the measurments I posted?  If the COP is greater than 1, you will know my measurments are suspect! :D  Also, just did another test - different distilled water/baking soda solution, results were:

400mL distilled water @ 15 deg Celsius.
Start Current 1.8A, rising to 4.4A
Time taken to boil very vigourously 190 seconds

Personally, since I heard about "electrode boiler" (which is all this is) I have been looking for any info about the power Mr. Davey's device may have used, but can't find any!  Without some evidence that the power required was unexplainably small, we could well just be dealing with an electrode boiler here...
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 21, 2008, 03:41:35 AM
The octave harmonics of 50Hz would be 100Hz, 200Hz, 400Hz, 800Hz, 1600Hz, 3200Hz, etc

I don't think it's the electricity that vibrates the bell but the electricity passing through the water at 60Hz having a 60Hz contraction expansion which is then aided by the bells also naturally vibrating at that same frequency. So it's the electricity to the water to the bell that the vibration propagates. The water becomes the hammer to the bell.

Aha, thanks, that's what I needed to know!  Also sucks of course 'cos both 'bells' aren't suitable - small one 1000Hz, (after much work!) large one is about 825Hz...  Of course, it also means that there is a valid reason for it not having worked! :)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on June 21, 2008, 10:46:43 AM
Make no mistake, I do not have a well-equipped lab here, so tend to err on the side of caution with regard to the measurments (ie. use max. rather than avg. current in calcs).  The 400mL is accurate, the start temp was current air temp at time of test, and the end boil-time taken from visual queues - vigorous boiling!

What does my kettle COP come to based on the measurments I posted?  If the COP is greater than 1, you will know my measurments are suspect! :D  Also, just did another test - different distilled water/baking soda solution, results were:

400mL distilled water @ 15 deg Celsius.
Start Current 1.8A, rising to 4.4A
Time taken to boil very vigourously 190 seconds

Personally, since I heard about "electrode boiler" (which is all this is) I have been looking for any info about the power Mr. Davey's device may have used, but can't find any!  Without some evidence that the power required was unexplainably small, we could well just be dealing with an electrode boiler here...


Hey Sprocket
The COP on thisnew info is 1.07, but due to the quality of the variable data the scope for error is quite large.
The two criteria that is important is the start and end temp, which one needs a digital thermometer. The second is a watt meter. Without this you have to use voltage x amps. Because the amps are moving around and using a start and end amp rating and calculating the average is not quite correct but will give you a ball park wattage.
When one starts moving to ball parks in eccess of 1.5 COP, then more sophisticated equipment will be needed to verify the facts.
Also because a kettle has a 2000w rating does not mean its working at 100% efficiency so one cannot take this into your calcualtions. Rather place the ampmeter around the wires as kettle elements have a constant amp measurement.

As for harmonics of 50Hz they go up in multiples of 50, so 50 , 100, 150 , 200, 250 , 300, 350 etc...Not 50, 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 21, 2008, 02:48:54 PM
Aha, thanks, that's what I needed to know!  Also sucks of course 'cos both 'bells' aren't suitable - small one 1000Hz, (after much work!) large one is about 825Hz...  Of course, it also means that there is a valid reason for it not having worked! :)

I think only one bell needs to be tuned to an octave harmonic or the mains. The other just needs to be at the right distance from the tuned bell to act as a reflector of the waves.

I'm arriving at those frequencies by taking the octave of 50Hz which would be 100Hz then the octave of it which would be 200Hz etc. I think the octaves will be the strongest harmonics of the main but there will be 5th harmonics and others as well, especially when you get in the higher harmonics.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on June 21, 2008, 04:09:36 PM
The octave harmonics of 50Hz would be 100Hz, 200Hz, 400Hz, 800Hz, 1600Hz, 3200Hz, etc
Don't forget that the USA users need to tune to these possibilities:
60, 120, 240, 480, 960 hz etc.
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 21, 2008, 07:40:47 PM
There seems to be a disagreement of sorts on what multiple of the fundamental frequency should be used, a hugely important number imo, if only from the work point of view, as the bell will have to be ground down to this frequency...

Having got no positive results with 1000Hz, I tried reversing the connections, attaching the live to the outer bell, which is closer to the other untried 800Hz harmonic mentioned (bell is about 825Hz).  First little surprise was that the 'character' of the boil seems quite different, much 'smoother' - easier to witness than explain!  Results were:

Time to boil 225 seconds.
current was 1.9A at start rising progressively to max out at 3.2A

At this stage I'm starting to believe that all I really have here is an electrode boiler, so a COP close to 1 is all there is to be expected...
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 21, 2008, 09:24:28 PM
DID YOU HEAR ANY 'BUZZ' SOUND !?

I didn't, and that worry me a lot... Without such sound I suspect only a typical immerse boiler
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on June 21, 2008, 10:22:26 PM
I attached the live to the outside bell and got zero zipp nada. No amps not heat Just nothing. On the inside I got instant heat, amps etc..
Wonder what was happening as sprocket got something...
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 21, 2008, 10:37:29 PM
I have a bit more complicated assembly with a threaded rod connected to the neutral and going throught outer and inner bell but connected electrically to outer bell while live wire is connected to inner bell. That threaded rod is ended with a metal cap.Neutral wire is also wrapped around outer bell a few times.

Unfortunately I have no fast heat or boiling action. Water just goes a little bit warmer but it took many minutes and 220V/0.4A which dropped to 0.2A at the end.

Nothing  interesting.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 21, 2008, 10:39:39 PM
I realized that my inner bell is mostly covered by black paint which is probably insulation so I must scrap it all and retest again. The problem is how to mount bells in such manner that allow them to vibrate and still be connected to power. Any wire connected to bells seems to reduce vibration a lot.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 21, 2008, 11:05:57 PM
Looking once again into video... Obviously that small hemispherical metalic objects laying on Davey tabletop are common because he has got so many. Why I can't find any ? Where can I buy a few such hemispheres ?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 21, 2008, 11:35:27 PM
I realized that my inner bell is mostly covered by black paint which is probably insulation so I must scrap it all and retest again. The problem is how to mount bells in such manner that allow them to vibrate and still be connected to power. Any wire connected to bells seems to reduce vibration a lot.

If you fasten the bell at it's top then it doesn't dampen the vibrations so you could use a teflon screw with it's center drilled out that would accept a metal screw which would connect to the inner bell. Connect the phase line to the top of that center bolt. The outer bell could have a nut welded to it so it can screw up and down the teflon bolt to adjust the spacing. The wire for the outer bell could be soldered to the nut to not dampen the vibrations.

You could also use a drilled out metal bolt if you put good insulation on the center bolt that will connect to the inner bell. In this case you could make both electrical connections at the top of the outer and inner screw.

The screw thread to adjust the distance could also be done so the inside of the teflon bolt would have the screw threads and the inner bolt would screw in and out of it to adjust the distance. The outer bell would be fixed to not move.

I will be trying one of these variation in the next couple of weeks. I found a friend that has access to a machine shop :)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: greendoor on June 22, 2008, 02:24:04 AM
Looking once again into video... Obviously that small hemispherical metalic objects laying on Davey tabletop are common because he has got so many. Why I can't find any ? Where can I buy a few such hemispheres ?
Peter is an old man - 92.  You have to remember that during the 1940, 50's 60, 70's - alarm clocks were mechanical and had bells on them.  Bike bells were common too.  This is stuff from previous generations. 

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: greendoor on June 22, 2008, 02:36:38 AM
If there is an useful overunity effect from the Peter Davey heater, we should isolate the acoustic effect from the electric heating effect.  Peter seemed convinced the effect was acoustic - and his experience shows a very important problem that any overunity design that connects to the AC power is going to have:

If you can achieve overunity with any invention that connects to mains AC power you are going to be accused - rightly or wrongly - of stealing power from the grid.  The conservative engineers who don't understand overunity will come to only one conclusion - and the conservative judges will find you guilty - because they don't understand either.

Also note: if your invention works on mains frequency, or harmonic thereof, you are also going to be accused of steal electricity from a distance.  This is an old trick used to silence free energy inventors.

So please - don't be trapped by the spooks involved in this Peter Davey case.  You need to explore the acoustic effect, and distance yourself from the AC power issue.  Or suffer the fate of Peter Davey.

Also - the high current draw of the alleged Peter Davey device means this is so far away from overunity that there is no point wasting resources in replicating it. 

Take the essence of the idea - and make it work.  We know from Tesla (and even those paid-off bungling Mythbuster clowns) that we can excite a steel beam with carefully timed impacts, and get it to vibrate with dangerous self-destructive force.  If we can feed carefully timed impulses into a bells, tube, rod, plate - whatever - to this point of self destruction - don't you think this would heat up water really good??  That's a lot of energy whipping around.

Microwave ovens heat water by oscillating it with high frequency.  Heat is motion.  Sound is motion.  The key is resonance.  Forget the high amp AC power - it's a diversion. 
   



Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 22, 2008, 03:21:26 AM
One of the most fustrating things about the Davey device is the lack of info - no-one seems to know exactly how much power his working heaters consumed, so saying to focus on acoustics and forget about the AC aspect is premature.  As is worrying about being accused by the power companies of stealing power - something that is consuming say 100W of power to do work that physics says should take 1000W would be classed as OU, but how is the power companies going to know you are drawing less current than you 'should' be! (or  that they would like you to be...)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 22, 2008, 03:52:20 AM
I should mention that with the current configuration (live attached to outside bell) current consumption seems dependent on where the inner bell is located - I can vary mine easily, deep within the outer bell or move it progressively outwards.  When pushed well in, current increases big-time (last test: same water, 70sec boil-time, current goes from 4->8.6A).  There is also more of an 'electrolysis effect' - much more HHO being produced, whereas there seems to be none when connected the other way...
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: greendoor on June 22, 2008, 12:37:58 PM
If this thing draws 4 amps @ 240V (I live in Christchurch New Zealand - it's 50Hz 240V here) then that is 960 Watts.  If it rises to 8.6A - that's 2064 Watts.

There is something seriously wrong if you can't boil a cup of tea very quickly with 2kW!  I believe there is a principle here that requires serious research, but I suspect the recent media release is disinformation designed to mislead researchers.  I was tempted to look up Peter Davey - but decided against it.  His phone number is unlisted.  I could find his house and go see him - but he's 92.  I don;t expect to gain much.  Maybe he is being manipulated in his old age to cover up the truth?  The wierd stuff published by "Dr Jan Pajak" appears to be delusional, sad and fairly creepy.  But he gives good reason to be very suspicious of this recent unearthing of Peter Davey's invention.  So if he's right, I don't want to tangle with the government spooks.  And if "Dr Jan" is the spook (disguised as a whacko) I don't want to tangle with something our government might be trying to smear at the moment.  Either way - something is very dubious about this whole thing, and I doubt we can find the truth without experimenting with the basic acoustic principle.  Or waste your time frying water with high current AC mains power ... it's your choice.

I'm a musician, and I know about tuning and resonance.  I can get a house shaking with a carefully tuned bass or synth note.  How much energy would that take by any other means?  And that's with air-coupling!  Think about that for a moment ... there is great power in resonance if you tune it right.  Get a musician involved if you don't understand this part.

If there is any overunity in this device, it's from the acoustic effect - which is what Peter Blake has said all along.  I just think his big mistake was to try to use AC power - but back in the 1940's there wasn't the electronic solutions we have today.





 

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 22, 2008, 03:12:33 PM
It's all about cavitation I think.However I'm not sure if our current schematic of Davey device is correct. Who said that two hemispheres must be assembled that way ?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on June 22, 2008, 04:02:03 PM
There seems to be a disagreement of sorts on what multiple of the fundamental frequency should be used, a hugely important number imo, if only from the work point of view, as the bell will have to be ground down to this frequency...
Having got no positive results with 1000Hz
You won't get results with 1000Hz.

The essence of the Peter Daysh Davey system is that the two bells are tuned, very accurately,
to the frequency of the AC mains that is being used, or one or more octaves up on that
frequency. This is crucial.

In America, using 60 hz mains, the bells must be tuned to
60 (impossibly big bells)
120
240
480 (A real possiblity - between the 6th and 7th frets up the top string of a guitar)
960 etc etc

In Europe, using their 50 cycles per second AC mains supply, une to
50
100
200
400 (between the 3rd and 4th frets up on the top string of a guitar.
800
1600 etc etc

The bells must be in tune when they are assembled on the
rig. (i.e. you shouldn't tune them and expect them to still be in tune when
tightened up on rods with washers etc.

In theory, it is possible to tune a bell to 400hz whilst listening to a 50 hz hum.
But it is not as easy as it seems. Musicians can, but ordinary mortals
may have difficulty.

This stuff matters.
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on June 22, 2008, 04:51:00 PM
I keep on seeing the wrong information being given about harmonics.
It is like this
if your fundamental frequency is 50hz as with the AC mains then the resonant frequencies are multiples of that. ie 50 , 100, 150 , 200 and so on. Not as is being stated by some as 50, 100, 200, 400

In the USA it is 60, 120, 180, 240 etc.. NOT 60, 120, 240, 480

Read up on resonances and harmonic waveforms.
Also for those who understand physics it is - see pic attached

So 1000Hz is a resonant of the fundamental 50Hz

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on June 22, 2008, 04:56:08 PM
If this thing draws 4 amps @ 240V (I live in Christchurch New Zealand - it's 50Hz 240V here) then that is 960 Watts.  If it rises to 8.6A - that's 2064 Watts.

There is something seriously wrong if you can't boil a cup of tea very quickly with 2kW!  I believe there is a principle here that requires serious research, but I suspect the recent media release is disinformation designed to mislead researchers.  I was tempted to look up Peter Davey - but decided against it.  His phone number is unlisted.  I could find his house and go see him - but he's 92.  I don;t expect to gain much.  Maybe he is being manipulated in his old age to cover up the truth?  The wierd stuff published by "Dr Jan Pajak" appears to be delusional, sad and fairly creepy.  But he gives good reason to be very suspicious of this recent unearthing of Peter Davey's invention.  So if he's right, I don't want to tangle with the government spooks.  And if "Dr Jan" is the spook (disguised as a whacko) I don't want to tangle with something our government might be trying to smear at the moment.  Either way - something is very dubious about this whole thing, and I doubt we can find the truth without experimenting with the basic acoustic principle.  Or waste your time frying water with high current AC mains power ... it's your choice.

I'm a musician, and I know about tuning and resonance.  I can get a house shaking with a carefully tuned bass or synth note.  How much energy would that take by any other means?  And that's with air-coupling!  Think about that for a moment ... there is great power in resonance if you tune it right.  Get a musician involved if you don't understand this part.

If there is any overunity in this device, it's from the acoustic effect - which is what Peter Blake has said all along.  I just think his big mistake was to try to use AC power - but back in the 1940's there wasn't the electronic solutions we have today.





 


C'mon greendoor, what i have seen from kiwis (if the all blacks are any indicator) is that you are tough group of people. Go down and see Peter, not that i think he'll give out any deatails, as he is still waiting for that elusive investor (after 70 years), but see what he will give, and quickly post it on the forum. As for the spooks... whats the worst that they can do... send you to Australia for a month, actually worse still, send you for 2 months.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 22, 2008, 06:52:03 PM
I keep on seeing the wrong information being given about harmonics.
It is like this
if your fundamental frequency is 50hz as with the AC mains then the resonant frequencies are multiples of that. ie 50 , 100, 150 , 200 and so on. Not as is being stated by some as 50, 100, 200, 400

In the USA it is 60, 120, 180, 240 etc.. NOT 60, 120, 240, 480

Read up on resonances and harmonic waveforms.
Also for those who understand physics it is - see pic attached

So 1000Hz is a resonant of the fundamental 50Hz

The harmonics I quoted are included when you calculate it as f1, f2, f3, f4 etc

50, 100, 150, 200, 250, 300, 350, 400, etc
50, 100, 200, 400, etc

or

60, 120, 180, 240, 300, 360, 420, 480, etc
60, 120, 240, 480, etc

There are of course many other harmonic intervals AND inharmonic (partials) especially in bells.

I'm a sax player also and I know that the octave overtones are easier to produce without using the octave key than the other overtones. Flute is the same but clarinet overblows at the 12th interval instead of the octave.

Since we still don't know exactly how this works, we should try all size bells that are near the size he was using while adjusting the distance between the bells.

I finally found a machine shop that is going to make me various size bells from ss and also brass so I hope to get started on this soon.


Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: enki09 on June 22, 2008, 07:20:45 PM
Here is a link to a paper I wrote a couple years ago when I found this effect:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/boilercell.html">Click Here</a>
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 22, 2008, 07:37:16 PM
If this thing draws 4 amps @ 240V (I live in Christchurch New Zealand - it's 50Hz 240V here) then that is 960 Watts.  If it rises to 8.6A - that's 2064 Watts.

There is something seriously wrong if you can't boil a cup of tea very quickly with 2kW!...

It's very easy to test - your typical kettle averages 2KW during boiling so try it out!   I have, and a large cup of water (400mL) takes 89 seconds.  However, my heater seems to use much less power (at times!) to heat the same amount of water.  If this is only functioning as an "electrode boiler", greater effeciency than a kettle is predicted anyway.  But this clearly is nowhere near as fast as Davey appears to be boiling his water...  So, not only do we have any clear idea how much power Davey's own heater takes to boil water, there also is no evidence that what we see in the videos is definitely cold water being heated - I could easily replicate the 'Davey effect' by heating the water (not boiling) first, then sticking the heater in - lots of bubbles, instant 'apparent' boiling!

Not sure what you are hoping to achieve with the spooks/MIB theme, personally I'm sure they have much more pressing concerns...
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 22, 2008, 08:06:01 PM
C'mon.Let's assume that video is saying the truth and cold water is immediately starting to boil . If we take all possible manipulations into account then we spend the rest of our lives investigating that (I think not so complicated) problem.


My thoughts : cavitation is used, and cavitation is produced efficiently by a acoustic waves resonance in small area.Remember : 60 hz is like 3600 rpm and there are knows devices using fast rotors which are able to boil small amount of water immediately at that speed.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 22, 2008, 08:20:47 PM
I am certainly not implying that it was faked, merely highlighting the very real fact that practically nothing is known about it - not its "modus operandi", the power consumed, or even confirmed start temperatures! (not even seeing the glass being filled from a tap/faucet before being boiled - at least I haven't...)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 22, 2008, 08:30:58 PM
Here is a link to a paper I wrote a couple years ago when I found this effect:

<a href="http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870/boilercell.html">Click Here</a>

Thanks for the link.  I have already read this - interesting!  My only niggle would be the lack of measurments - though the article implies an 'anomolous heating effect', there were no results (facts & figures) to back this up.

Your diagrams that use the caps & coils have inspired me to power up the scope and see what a variable 15V AC @ 2A signal (PSU max current) fed to my heater does - probably nothing :)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on June 22, 2008, 09:41:56 PM
Hi guys,

Some informations.

I was able to heat distilled water with my new (inefficient cups (device)).

Results:
1) Trying to heat 0.75 liters of distilled water (750 grams).
Initial temperature: 19.5?.
I switch on the power supply.... :)
The (cheap) analog amp meter shows zero amp (during the whole experiment).
After a  while (about one minute), the wattmeter is reacting...
After 6  minutes: consumption =  9 watts/hour
After 9  minutes: consumption = 15 watts/hour
After 11 minutes: consumption = 20 watts/hour
I stopped here.
Final temperature (after having stirred the water and having removed the cups).
39.5?.

Delta T= 39.5 - 19.5 = 20?.
Coef= 750*4.2/3600= 0.875
4.2 joules (one cal) to increase the temperature of one gram of water to 1?

Theoretical = 20? * 0.875 watts/hour
Observed = 20 watts/hour
Calculated COP= 0.875
-------------------------------------------------------
2)  Heating 0.75 liters of (Briton) tap water (750 grams) with the same setup.
The analog amp meter is showing a variable amp consumption: from 8 to 10 amps
BTW: this meter also skips until 15 amps for a short while each time a big bubble appears!

Initial temperature: 19.7?
After 1 min 20 sec: the wattmeter is showing  45 watts/hour.
I stopped here.
Final temp.: 68?
Delta T: 68 - 19.7 = 48.3?
COP = 48.3 * 0.875 / 45 =/= 0.94
----------------------------------------------------
Projected experiments:

1) Distilled water + Baking Soda.
2) Tap water + Baking S.
I bet that my (alleged) 10 amps fuse will blow out!
3) Filtered water (the water that I use for drinking and cooking).
---------------------------------------------------------
Else:
About one year ago I was able to hear an humming noise from one of my 'devices'.
As I keep on dismantling and re building them I was not able to hear it again...  :'(
-------------------------------------------------------
So, my scientific conclusions are:
Yes, the Peter Daysh Davey's Device (PDDD = PD^3) could be 'OU' (COP >1)!
The very formula is: COP = PD^3 + d(Lot_Of_Parameters)/dt

It just depends upon:
1) the Moon position.
2) The Ascendant of the place and the time (The degree of the (Tropic) Astrological Sign that is raising).  I do not use Sideral Astrology. BTW: 1+2 = Hour Astrology. ;D
3) The mood of the experimenter.
4) The age of the captain.
5) The disposition, the own frequencies and the shape of the cups.
6) The speed of the wind.
7) Probably the Oil barrel price level or something like that...
 ;D  :D ??? :P

Best






Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 22, 2008, 09:55:32 PM
I think that Davey device is not using more then 100W but we won't see...
Someone should convince him to publish some video showing amperage usage while boiling cold water.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 22, 2008, 09:58:12 PM
What about the details of your device? Just two metal half spheres close to each other or did you try any type of tuning to some harmonic of the main. Do you have pictures or drawings of your device?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 22, 2008, 09:59:32 PM
I think that Davey device is not using more then 100W but we won't see...
Someone should convince him to publish some video showing amperage usage while boiling cold water.

Somewhere on this thread is a video or picture showing a meter as he has the device in the water. I don't recall if it was amps but I think so and it was registering on the low end of the scale.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 22, 2008, 10:03:22 PM
I don't know how to tune to mains :-( Give me some info.

My device are made from common parts : two cheap SS bowls (and a lot of work to join them ;-)
inside there are two bells , bigger and smaller like in known schematic, lying on the threaded SS rod (bigger bell is insulated from rod) That will be my second test, first failed due to big resistance of inner bell ( was insulated with paint)

I would like to post pictures but my digital camera is very old and all pictures are blurry.The same for www camera attached to my computer.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 22, 2008, 10:06:36 PM
I think that Davey device is simply an acoustic transducer with a shell,but in that case the proposed shape is misleading in my opinion. Someone with deeped knowledge should analyze when is the focal point of generated sound waves!
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 22, 2008, 10:11:10 PM
If you are not a musician then it may be difficult unless you use a program to analyze the bell frequency. I believe you want it tuned to (depending on what your mains frequency is) (50, 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600) or (60, 120, 240, 480, 960, 1920) Hopefully your bell is a little lower than one of those frequencies. Then just slowly grind it down until you reach one of those frequencies. Of course the lower ones will be impossible but I just listed then to show the octave relationship to the mains.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 22, 2008, 10:16:57 PM
I have found very interesting behaviour of two bike bells loosely lying on then common rod. If you periodically rise and fall the outer bell over the inner one (letting him to fall down due to gravity) you will hear and feel strange vibration.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on June 22, 2008, 10:31:22 PM

@Storre 

I have just quickly taken some pictures.
I almost ran out of batteries.
Sorry they are blurred.

http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Davey_New_Exp_1.jpg (http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Davey_New_Exp_1.jpg)
http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Davey_New_Exp_2.jpg (http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Davey_New_Exp_2.jpg)
http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Davey_New_Exp_3.jpg (http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Davey_New_Exp_3.jpg)
http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Davey_New_Exp_4.jpg  (http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Davey_New_Exp_4.jpg)

No: I did not try any tuning.


Best
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 22, 2008, 10:42:59 PM
@Storre 

No: I did not try any tuning.


Best


I thinking tuning is the key (pun intended) :) Do you have a way to compare the tone of one of the bells with a piano or guitar or check it with a frequency analyzer?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on June 22, 2008, 10:44:09 PM
I keep on seeing the wrong information being given about harmonics.
It is like this
if your fundamental frequency is 50hz as with the AC mains then the resonant frequencies are multiples of that. ie 50 , 100, 150 , 200 and so on. Not as is being stated by some as 50, 100, 200, 400

With respect, I Believe you to be wrong on this matter, and it is VERY important.

It is not about harmonics; it is about octaves.

Octaves double every time. In England, using 50 cycles, the first octave is 100 hz.
The second octave is at 200 hz. The next one is at 400hz. This is crucial to
understanding the method, which has given a COP of 20. This link may be
helpful:
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter14.pdf
(I think the important stuff starts at page 21 or thereabouts.

Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 22, 2008, 11:01:13 PM
Imo there are 4 MAJOR problems within the discussions over the weekend:
1) some of our valuable experimenters including the invaluable @ND are starting to get discouraged but there is no reason for them to, as they did not do the tuningssssss.
2) there is a confusion about the harmonics of 50Hz. (I am on @storre's side)
3) WE HAVE SOMEONE IN XCHURCH! If I were him I would go and visit this old timer with a watt meter. Old men like to talk about their experiences! He will tell many invaluable things! You could easily tell him that we (I am sure everyone here will support this) want to invest on this device if it consumes little power and see what he says!
4) Only one member tried to encourage @green to go and see Davey the others ignored the fact that one of us live in there!

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on June 22, 2008, 11:19:31 PM

@Storre:
 
Yes, tuning should be the key and even the pitch (pun intended)... :)
yes, I have a way to check the freq (an old sampler and software for ex).
I used to compose music and even acousmatic (concrete) music
(http://freenrg.info/My_Zique/ (http://freenrg.info/My_Zique/)).

But, should I have the patience, the capacity and and the means to tune
this device (it is not like my guitar) is another question. ???

This devices (with random COPS) sound as 'elusive' as a fish... And you can't
tune a fish! (puns intended).  :D

@Paul-R:
Yes, it is about octaves but fifths (DO - SOL) should also work, IMHO.

Best
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 22, 2008, 11:33:11 PM
Yes 5ths I will test for too, after I test for the octave. I will only start making my bells (and will try cones) next week but not understanding why they are hard to tune. Should be just like tuning tubes. Grind and bang, grind and bang :) I know the harmonics can sometimes overcome the fundamental but usually the fundamental sustains longer so just wait a bit.

And since we are trading music I thought I would pitch in some of my compositions :)
http://idisk.mac.com/stevetorrence-Public?view=web
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 22, 2008, 11:47:39 PM
Oh come on ND.
If this community can not solve the mysteries of this device, which device will it uncover?
I will give some reasons:
1) It is the simplest one ever!
2) The inventor is alive!
3) There is one of us who lives where he lives
4) The "how it works" of it seems to be discussed in fair detail and most find it logical. (It may not work the way most of us seem to agree on or it may even be a hoax as some of us including me implied. But for gods sake, lets first try it in the way it is described and we think it may work (1600Hz 3.5 cm inner bell and 4.5cm outer bell and distance tuning) and then throw it into the hoaxes bin if it fails.)

I can relate to your disappointment but do not understand why you insist on
making more experiments before you tune it. (I am sure you have good reasons)
But then, when you do, you should not get discouraged.  :)
With all due respect.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on June 23, 2008, 12:10:30 AM


@Storre:


Your link : http://idisk.mac.com/stevetorrence-Public?view=web (http://idisk.mac.com/stevetorrence-Public?view=web) works.

I got:
stevetorrence's Public Folder
Fabrizio e Steve
Some .mp3 -  Metal soul.... (for example)

How can I listen to these .mp3?

BTW: you are Italian. Are you not?
Se avessi avuto coraggio avrei potuto got better results with these Davey's things. :D

Best

.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on June 23, 2008, 12:39:35 AM


Hi Devrim,

Nice so see you here. Yes, I do agree with all your 4 points!

Why am I keeping on making more experiments whitout having
even tried to measure any freq?

Frankly, I do not know... Perhaps because I'm lazy and I secretly expect to
come across something without too much 'left brain' work???
 

Best

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 23, 2008, 12:46:05 AM
On the far right of the page are little download arrows. No I'm not italian :)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on June 23, 2008, 01:07:09 AM
<OFF TOPIC>

@Storre

I finally managed to listen to you .mp3 files.

Very professional and elaborated. Who is playing the Sax?
"Into my old head Rendered" sounds "acousmatical" music.....
Why not having more used the Dijeridoo?
IMHO the end of this piece is a little bit "under instrumentalized".

This forum is definitely (also) a lair of musicians!.
I bet that NulPoins/Sandy/Dr R. (the bass player) would agree with that...


Best
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 23, 2008, 04:44:47 AM
@ND - Those are 'proper' bells you have there - nice!  I think you posted earlier that you use Cooledit 2000, if so, have you checked what your bells fundamental frequencies are?  A spectrum of their frequencies (Cooledit Analyzer function) would be cool to see!

@all - FWIW, I checked what would happen if a variable frequency/voltage squarewave, (555 timer with darlington driver - 10-30V @ 0.5A) was applied to my 'bell'.  Tried both bell frequencies and slow frequency sweeps in the hope of seeing something interesting - just a little bit of electrolysis, nothing more...  :'(
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 23, 2008, 01:11:23 PM
@ NerzhDishual:
Yes off topic but thanks :) It's me playing sax, flute, didgeridoo and akai-ewi and clarinet. It was done in my studio but is not the final mix. Just some fun we have when we are not making fe machines :) They are all just improvs so what comes out comes out and we try not to mess with it too much afterwords. If you know about ayahuasca, that is the real name of the didgeridoo song that is a bit crazy and long :)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 23, 2008, 09:31:07 PM
I have found something which may be really usefull - egg shaped device for making tea. Something like this : http://www.naherbatke.pl/product.php?id=2503&categorie=119 but mine is a cheaper one, SS inox type, cheaper probably becouse of thinner walls.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on June 24, 2008, 04:13:25 PM
I have found something which may be really usefull - egg shaped device for making tea. Something like this : http://www.naherbatke.pl/product.php?id=2503&categorie=119 but mine is a cheaper one, SS inox type, cheaper probably becouse of thinner walls.
I am working on soup ladles from cheap kitchen shops.
Don't forget that if they sound off just over G sharp (depnding on your country and AC),
then you will have to grind off a heck of a lot of metal to get down to the next G sharp (approx).
I have invested in a set of pitch pipes from a music shop. They give G, if not G sharp. People in
the shop will think you're daft, but uit saves a lot of grinding.
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 24, 2008, 04:23:17 PM
I am working on soup ladles from cheap kitchen shops.
Don't forget that if they sound off just over G sharp (depnding on your country and AC),
then you will have to grind off a heck of a lot of metal to get down to the next G sharp (approx).
I have invested in a set of pitch pipes from a music shop. They give G, if not G sharp. People in
the shop will think you're daft, but uit saves a lot of grinding.
Paul.

Thanks,but I only want it to be my casing. Inside I'd like to place a small bike bell.
I'm not sure if that resonance means the correct frequency match with mains or rather just a resonant cavity. I think rather about the last.I've found a patent describing generating very high pressure waves in single focal point using transducer with a shell concentrating sound waves in small point.It is stated that standing waves are produced.Unfortunately sound is generated by pulses of high energy HV from capacitor which seems to shake inner plate of transducer.I cannot imaging how it may happen with mains.Maybe there is a kind of spark gap inside water between each belles with some sharp edge which generates mechanical punches ?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 24, 2008, 05:44:39 PM
I've tested my device. No spectacular results. However two things are worth to note:
- current dropped during testing from 1.9 A to 1.1A continuously
- all my non SS connectors,nuts were corroded or rathe covered with kind of patina
- I saw a small bubbles coming out of my device near the connect point where the bells are very near each other, probably it's irrelevant but they occured at once when I switched power on
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on June 24, 2008, 10:35:15 PM
Thanks,but I only want it to be my casing. Inside I'd like to place a small bike bell.
I believe the bells should be the same so that the gap between them is constant.
The gap is an important variable.
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 24, 2008, 10:45:34 PM
I think if the bells are the same size and shape then the space will not be consistent throughout. If both bells are supposed to be tuned to the same frequency then the inner bell will have to be longer and skinnier to fit inside the outer bell. If they were cone shaped then it would be easier and the gap more consistent but it might effect the harmonics. I will be trying it both ways in about a week.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 25, 2008, 03:15:05 PM
I think if the bells are the same size and shape then the space will not be consistent throughout. If both bells are supposed to be tuned to the same frequency then the inner bell will have to be longer and skinnier to fit inside the outer bell. If they were cone shaped then it would be easier and the gap more consistent but it might effect the harmonics. I will be trying it both ways in about a week.

According to the text we have tuning is for the inner bell only and then the distance from the outer bell. IMO
It makes some sense as the live wire is connected to the inner bell and the outer bell gets neutral connection.
Moreover ,I see no point in having two vibrations at the same time anyway. Just one vibration and a surface at the right
distance that the waves will be hitting and bouncing back.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 25, 2008, 03:28:32 PM
According to the text we have tuning is for the inner bell only and then the distance from the outer bell. IMO
It makes some sense as the live wire is connected to the inner bell and the outer bell gets neutral connection.
Moreover ,I see no point in having two vibrations at the same time anyway. Just one vibration and a surface at the right
distance that the waves will be hitting and bouncing back.

I agree and is how I will make my first tests. This way we can keep the space between the bells a little more consistent.

Does someone know what type of 220v they have in NZ? Where I'm at 220v is not like in the US. My electronic comes off the street pole as 4 wires. 1 neutral and 3 phases that are 126v each. So if I use a dual phase motor for example, each wire is a phase. Same for lighting 220v bulbs. In the US, if I'm not mistaken, it's 220v on one wire and the other is neutral. It seems it would make a difference in the functioning of this heater.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on June 25, 2008, 04:21:14 PM
Does someone know what type of 220v they have in NZ?
It is 50 hz, according to these people:
http://www.newzealandnz.co.nz/new-zealand/electricity.html
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on June 25, 2008, 04:23:15 PM
According to the text we have tuning is for the inner bell only and then the distance from the outer bell.
I am certain that BOTH the inner bell and the outer bell must be tuned to resonate with
the frequency of your mains.
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 26, 2008, 03:40:15 PM
I am certain that BOTH the inner bell and the outer bell must be tuned to resonate with
the frequency of your mains.
Paul.

Could you explain the dynamics if it is more then a feeling please.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on June 26, 2008, 03:57:35 PM
Could you explain the dynamics if it is more then a feeling please.
Its what Mr Davey says.
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 26, 2008, 03:59:42 PM
Its what Mr Davey says.
Paul.

Is there an indication on the frequencies?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on June 26, 2008, 04:08:19 PM
Is there an indication on the frequencies?
The frequency is simply the frequency of the experimentators AC mains supply
(or an octave of it).
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 26, 2008, 04:13:25 PM
The frequency is simply the frequency of the experimentators AC mains supply
(or an octave of it).
Paul.

Yes there is no doubt about it.
I meant to ask if both are the same frequency?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on June 26, 2008, 06:38:04 PM
Yes there is no doubt about it.
I meant to ask if both are the same frequency?
Yes. both bells are tuned to the fr4quency of your AC mains, or
an octave.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 26, 2008, 07:00:40 PM
How to tune them ? I can't imagine tuning while connected to mains... Do you really think that AC current produce a sound while passing through conductor ? Then why I don't hear any sound  in my wall socket ?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: edelind on June 26, 2008, 08:05:27 PM
How to tune them ? I can't imagine tuning while connected to mains... Do you really think that AC current produce a sound while passing through conductor ? Then why I don't hear any sound  in my wall socket ?
The easiest way to do it (for the rest of us, non-musicians) is to use computer software to analyze the sound the bell emits. From my experience it is the same as the frequency it resonates.

As a software, you can use Audacity or Spectrogram. After you see the frequency (frequencies)  your bell is emitting when hit, you can machine it gradually until you reach the desired harmonic of the mains.

You can check your resonance by using a sound frequency software generator, like PAS Frequency Generator, and put the sound into some large speakers (my portable stereo was enough in my case). Then place the bell as near as possible to the speakers and tune the software emitted frequency around your bell's frequency. If you cannot feel the vibration in your hand at resonance (as you definitely won't be able to hear it), you can place a small plied piece of paper on the bell's edge (keep the bell with the edges on top). You will see the paper starting to "dance" or even jumping out of the edge when you reach resonance. The only problem with this software generator is that you can only adjust with integer hertz values, which is a real problem for reaching a perfect resonance. But it will still work.

Please note that a lose bell will have a slight different frequency that the same one hard connected to a rod.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 26, 2008, 08:27:02 PM
Thank you. That was very useful information about how to tune bells to resonance with MECHANICALLY caused resonance. The point is that I don't believe AC current simply put through bells will force them to vibrate! There is some trick here, maybe related to loosely mounted bells.Maybe those bells are in such position then they create a circuit shortcut for a very small period and the arc produced is acting on them mechanically... As I mentioned I found a patent which describe similar device in shape, but vibrations there are produced by pulses from HV capacitor discharge
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on June 26, 2008, 09:27:18 PM
whats the patent number ?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on June 26, 2008, 09:43:32 PM


Hi Guys,

@Storre:
The Bass, the Dijeridoo, the Djembe and the Scottish Snare
should be mandatory in any 'worthy 'music piece. :) ;D

@Devrim:
Further to your kind demand, I have finally recorded my bells/cups... :P ;)

@Forest:
Quote
Egg shaped device for making tea
. Good idea, IMHO.

My new page about the freqs is:
http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Freq/ (http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Freq/)

Needs more explanations.
For ex: my first measures tend to show that the freq. of one cup/bell
does not vary (very much) should this cup be 'alone' or coupled with another cup...

Best
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 26, 2008, 10:42:31 PM
whats the patent number ?

patent no 3230506 E.J. Hellund "Pressure pulsation generator"
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on June 26, 2008, 11:30:52 PM
How to tune them ? I can't imagine tuning while connected to mains... Do you really think that AC current produce a sound while passing through conductor ? Then why I don't hear any sound  in my wall socket ?
The resonant effect is electrical, not sound.

A way to tune is to connect a very heavy resistor in series with a small cheap loudspeaker, and connect them across the mains.

You will hear a heavy bass hum.

Using hemisherical bells (like soup ladles), drill a hole in the middle of the sphere of the bell. Using a small threaded shaft and some nuts, fix this bell to the chuck of a power drill so that it can turn like a drill bit. Using a striker or a bow, sound the instrument. Listen for the tone.

Compare this tone to the tone coming from the mains/loudspeaker.
Start up the power drill. Using a file or another grinder, grind the rim of the bell down, and as you do this, its tone will get higher. At some point, it will start to approach the tone from the loudspeaker, except that it will be several octaves higher.

You will start to hear a fluttering sound when the frequency of the bell approaches that of the bell. Grind a bit more off. The fluttering will slow until it becomes a wow-wow-wow type of sound. Grind a bit more off until this wow-wow sound becomes continuous. It is in tune.

If you can get to a piano, possibly in a piano shop, ask the sales assistant to show you a G sharp just above the E of the double bass. This is, very approximately, the basic 50 cycles mains hum. Ask him or her to play G sharp three octaves higher. This is probably the sound that you will be after (if your bell is about the size of a bicycle bell). This exercise is a good rehearsal for the real thing.

If you are in the States where AC power is 60 cycles per second, ask  for E above the G sharp. The note is in between E and F.
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on June 27, 2008, 01:13:59 AM

Hi Guys,

Should anybody be interested in, this page:
http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Freq/ (http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Freq/)  has just been updated. :P

I'm now searching for a good mussel hunting workshop.... ;D

Best

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 27, 2008, 12:49:05 PM
How to tune them ? I can't imagine tuning while connected to mains... Do you really think that AC current produce a sound while passing through conductor ? Then why I don't hear any sound  in my wall socket ?

I wrote this a few times on this thread already but will try to explain again. The electricity doesn't vibrate the bells directly which is why you don't hear them out of the water. It's like trying to hear sound in a vacuum. With no air the sound doesn't travel. In this case, with no water, the bells do not vibrate. It's the hitting of the water at 50 or 60Hz that does something to the water causing it to contract and/or expand in rhythm with that frequency. The bells them vibrate because of the water the electricity is passing through.

WE ARE CREATING A MUSICAL INSTRUMENT that uses water instead of air as it's medium. The heating is just a side effect :)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 27, 2008, 01:14:28 PM
Hi Guys,

Should anybody be interested in, this page:
http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Freq/ (http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Freq/)  has just been updated. :P

I'm now searching for a good mussel hunting workshop.... ;D

Best



@ND Impressive work! Congratulations. Before spending more time, energy and money
on grinding your bells in a shop I think you should start with bells that resemble the
ones used by Mr. Davey. 3.5 cm and 4.5 cm and deep.

And while you are at it maybe a curved handle like his ;)

Could be very tricky to get those in France I know. Sorry.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on June 27, 2008, 01:36:07 PM
Please note that

http://www.totalizm.nazwa.pl/boiler.htm

page has been updated. It is rather a long page but as far as I can see
(I am very busy with the application of a patent of mine) the update contains
is important new information.

I know some of you think that Jan Pajak is a whakko but aren't we all?
I do not think judging people is what we need right now. Remember that one of the
first rules of being a better someone is not to judge anyone or anything.
Give some credit to the guy. No University will give Ph.D.s for nothing.

I think builders/experimenters should read this page.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on June 27, 2008, 03:48:40 PM

If you are in the States where AC power is 60 cycles per second, ask  for E above the G sharp. The note is in between E and F.
Paul.
I got this wrong. In the States, or anyone with 60hz mains will be looking for a note
between A sharp and B, and not E and F as started by me above. Sorry, folks.

Reminder that tuning is everything. The closer the tuning, the higher the COP.
also, the gap is important. Trial and error will determine the best.

Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: storre on June 27, 2008, 04:00:25 PM
Yes a lot of good interesting and far out material. I don't agree though with the writer in the article that it's difficult to measure the efficiency. He claims it can boil any amount of water so put it in 10 liters and measure the starting and finishing temp. If it boils in seconds, who cares. A few seconds for 10 liters is enormous ou!! It would take 2000w many many minutes to boil 10 liters of water.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on June 27, 2008, 06:19:43 PM
Hi Guys,

Should anybody be interested in, this page:
http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Freq/ (http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Freq/)  has just been updated. :P

I'm now searching for a good mussel hunting workshop.... ;D

Best


I measured the bells and got the following frequencies:
Bell 0 = 347.5 hz
1 = 917 & 941 Hz
2 = 2148 & 2198 Hz
3 = 649 Hz
4= 760 Hz

Anyone else get this ?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on June 27, 2008, 10:21:37 PM
I measured the bells and got the following frequencies:
Bell 0 = 347.5 hz
1 = 917 & 941 Hz
2 = 2148 & 2198 Hz
3 = 649 Hz
4= 760 Hz
Anyone else get this ?
What are the diameters of your bells, and what is the distance from the rim
to the hole with the bolt?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on June 28, 2008, 12:36:37 PM
Should anybody be interested in, this page:
http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Freq/ (http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Freq/)  has just been updated. :P
I notice that your screen shot shows frequencies from 2000 hz to 20 khz. Are you sure
that there is nothing interesting going on between 300hz and 2000hz?
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 28, 2008, 06:43:56 PM
I've done experiment with my new cell
220V/0.7A dropped to 0.5A and a buzz sound occured when device was laying at the bottom of container.No sound when it was immersed freely in water..But still I saw no boiling even after a while :-(
However that drop in current usage is interesting.Also my inner bell was very loosely connected on threaded rod.I start to believe that sparks are cause of vibrations and sound.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 28, 2008, 08:38:22 PM
I'm taking another stab at cracking this, but from a slightly different perspective.  I have new 'bells', whose fundamental frequencies are 1150Hz & 1630Hz.  Since everyone presumes that the 'real effect' is acoustic-based, I decided to use the frequencies above, rather than the 50Hz mains frequency.   I also now have a fairly accurate temperature meter - thermocouple probe is from another model, so I don't know how accurate the reading is, but since relative temp rise is all I'm interested in here, it's good enough!  Finally, I'm generating the frequencies using a laptop and Cooledit 2000.  Although max output is 2W, with the distilled water I'm using, actual readings are 6VAC p-p @ 55mA max.

Results:

Basically nothing of interest!  I have tried every combination of frequency manipulation I can think of, including frequency modulating either or both over a few hundred Hertz with a slow cycling time, in the hope of hitting a 'sweet-spot', to no avail.  I have also tried a few different positionings of the smaller bell with no effect.  While I am certainly not expecting to see any boiling take place at these power levels, given that the heater proportedly has a COP of 20, I was hoping to see some increase in temperature...  Only thing left to try is see if upping the input power makes a difference, but at this stage, I have lost interest in the brute-force "electrode heater" aspect...  If anyone can suggest another line of attack, please do :)

(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/Sprocket_06/Photo-0121.jpg)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on June 28, 2008, 09:04:35 PM
@DOCV

I measured the bells and got the following frequencies:
Bell 0 = 347.5 Hz
1 = 917 & 941 Hz
2 = 2148 & 2198 Hz
3 = 649 Hz
4= 760 Hz
Anyone else get this ?


What software are are you using?
We agree about bells #0 and #1...
The freqs for the bell #2  "sounds" more realistic.
Are not your  freq for #3 and #4 too low?

 2 possibilities:
1) Cool Edit 96 is not always  giving accurate.measurements.
2) I do no know how to use this software. :'(

Could any body try with Coll Edit 2000 or another software?

Best.





Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on June 28, 2008, 09:48:58 PM
Not strictly about Davey boiler but I have idea.Is it possible that in Davey original patent tubes were rotating fast ? I've read from Tesla lecture about some monopole electric rotor which is basically a copper or other metal based disc.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on June 28, 2008, 10:00:46 PM


@Paul-R and DOCV:

I have just made another analysis of my #3 bell.
It "sounds" like you can find a of frequencies in one bell.
It is not a sine wave!!!

I have just made another analysis of my #3 bell.
and figured out that Cool Edit 96 is just giving
the freq. of the  main "peak"of the selected part of the wave form.....
 :)
Please see picture:

(http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/Freq/Num_3_Wave_Analysis_comment.jpg)

Best
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on June 29, 2008, 03:48:30 PM
@Paul-R and DOCV:
I have just made another analysis of my #3 bell.
It "sounds" like you can find a of frequencies in one bell.
It is not a sine wave!!!
A bell will have more than one frequency, but if it is a good quality hemishere,
and held accurately at the centre (sometimes difficult to do), there should be
one frequency much bigger than the others, + various octaves of this main
frequency.

It seems to me that you might be better off dropping back to more traditional methods
of comparing the bell to the mains hum as outlined above. Try also page 8 of this:
http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter14.pdf
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on June 29, 2008, 04:11:09 PM
Hey Sprocket.
You can use a laptop to determine your frequency, but not to generate as it will give off a synthetic version of a sine wave. If you are trying to reproduce pure sound then you have to go with original sine waves and alter them, but not synthesize them. Much like listening to a live orchestra and then listening off a CD. The essence of the sound is just not the same.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on June 29, 2008, 05:53:47 PM
I'm not sure I agree with that - while it may be 'synthetic', it is also a 'pure' sine wave, with none of the bizarre secondary frequencies that just serve to complicate things - just look at the 'real' sound spectrums of mine and ND's bells on this thread!  Also, any decent sound-chip nowadays will output a proper analogue soundwave, and not the digital 'stepped' constructs of days gone by...  So, if we are to assume that this works because standing-waves are being produced by harmonics of a 'pure' 50Hz sine-wave, it does not seem unreasonable to presume that 'something' might have happened with what I tried...  But it didn't - that I concede! :D
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on July 01, 2008, 06:27:14 PM
I still believe that it may work but sonic response I had ONLY when I Used mostly insulated inner bell mounted very loosely on rod and sparks occured between rod and bell (whcih had a little uncovered metal are near rod). Current usage was also small : between 0.5 and 2A and I saw a tiny chain of bubbles coming out of my device through very small hole near rod output.A buzzu sound was also generated.

Later I polished my inner bell and mounted tightly. Current rised up to 10A and lights in my house started to blinking but result was worse.

Still in both cases there was no immediately boiling action...


I decided to stop further test with this device due to dangers of direct mains current.I plan to build rotaty of oscillatory working device aka pulse rotor to test mechanical cavitation at safe 12V design ;-)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on July 01, 2008, 09:23:48 PM
Later I polished my inner bell and mounted tightly. Current rised up to 10A and lights in my house started to blinking but result was worse...
Why not try to pick up an inexpensive variac from Ebay? That way,
you could bring the voltage up from zero in a more orderly fashion.
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater-free precision audio signal generator
Post by: ggx9 on July 12, 2008, 11:41:24 PM
To tune your bells or to check any audible frequency accurately and if you have speakers on your computer, spend no more money. Go to http://nch.com.au/tonegen/index.html and download their free tone generator. They have some nice software products at a good price, but for our purposes here you don't need them. If you connect an audio amplifier to your computer audio output you can use the nch software generator to run your Peter Davey heater at 50Hz or 50.01Hz or almost any other precision frequency you want. Try sine, square, triangle, sawtooth, pink or white noise. There is also a stereo option if you want to try running the two bells at different frequencies. Don't forget, if you run anywhere near 60Hz you can put a 60Hz transformer on the audio output amplifier and step your voltage/ current up and down. Be careful to protect your amplifier from inductive spikes from the transformer. Avoid sudden switching, rather adjust amplitude up and down gradually when turning on and off.

Richard
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on July 13, 2008, 02:13:21 AM

Hi Ggx9/Richard,

Thanks a lot for your informations.
Thanks also for 'resuscitating' (for a while?) this thread.

I have downloaded the software. It 'sounds' great.
For my part, and for the moment, I have given up my Davey's experiments.

I'm presently roasting some IRF250 trying to reproduce the
JL Naudin experiments about the Meyer WFC. (http://jnaudin.free.fr/wfc/ (http://jnaudin.free.fr/wfc/))

Best

PS:  may I take advantage of this post to ask:
Is there any French/Breton guy over there?
How many are we interested in, and experimenting these 'OU subjects'?
I do not count in our best skeptics members of course. ;D

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: nul-points on July 13, 2008, 06:58:50 AM
I'm presently roasting some IRF250 trying to reproduce the
JL Naudin experiments about the Meyer WFC. (http://jnaudin.free.fr/wfc/)

it's interesting to see the number of different experiments in progress which are all based around the use of electrodes in water 


PS:  may I take advantage of this post to ask:
Is there any French/Breton guy over there?
How many are we interested in, and experimenting these 'OU subjects'?

do people from 'grande' Bretagne qualify as Breton?  ;)

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater-free precision audio signal generator
Post by: Paul-R on July 14, 2008, 04:14:11 PM
To tune your bells or to check any audible frequency accurately and if you have speakers on your computer, spend no more money. Go to http://nch.com.au/tonegen/index.html and download their free tone generator.
The essence of the Peter Davey system is accuracy. How accurate is this software? How accurate
is your mains frequency (the latter will be very accurate).

The best method is going to be tuning to the hum coming off your mains, either using a fat high
wattage resistor in series with a small loudspeaker or putting the LS on the end of an AC step
down transformer of the sort that used to be used for elderly modems and early mobile phones.
(Nowadays, they tend to rectify the output to DC, and are no good).
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater-free precision audio signal generator
Post by: Paul-R on July 15, 2008, 04:21:57 PM
The essence of the Peter Davey system is accuracy. How accurate is this software?
More to the point, if the tones are generated by a crystal in the sound card, how accurate
is this component?

Maybe I am being a killjoy. We should try the software and see how it goes. After all,
a pair of magnificently useful soup ladles from Poundstrechers will only be two quid.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on July 23, 2008, 12:21:07 PM
I was thinking and thinking and FOUND THIS :
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oLUeGX3hNpU

now scale this down add a tiny resistance heater around electrodes to rise water temperature initially to 100-120 F and what you see ? Yeah...it's Peter Davey heater ! Plasma reaction in small amount of water!

SERIOUSLY!
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: edelind on July 23, 2008, 02:24:24 PM
I was thinking and thinking and FOUND THIS :
http://youtube.com/watch?v=oLUeGX3hNpU

now scale this down add a tiny resistance heater around electrodes to rise water temperature initially to 100-120 F and what you see ? Yeah...it's Peter Davey heater ! Plasma reaction in small amount of water!

SERIOUSLY!

It's not the same thing. Cold fusion requires high voltage and also has nothing to do with frequencies (at least not yet).
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Digits on August 10, 2008, 07:12:56 PM
hi every one I have also constructed one of these heaters and have to say you have got something here.

my amps ran at 3.5-4 after tuning and shifting the distance between the bells i managed to pull it down to 1-1.5 amps.
the time to bring my water to boil was halved.
i think with precision tuning we may do better.

i boil about a litre of water in 45s  to 1 minute don't know why the times differ though.

i am currently looking for better bells or domes and a better way to shift the distance.
i used two bicycle bells and PVC threaded rod this was the best i can do.

maybe ill have some good news in the future thanks guys for all the tips
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ggx9 on August 10, 2008, 09:29:58 PM
Hi Digits,

Thanks for posting the results of your work.

Are you running 220 volts 50Hz to the bells?  Were you able to check the resonant frequency of the bells before installation? Earlier postings indicated the bells must resonate at the frequency of the applied voltage. I think it would be difficult or impossible to make a bicycle bell to resonate at 50Hz and I don't think it is necessary as your test implies. My impression is that the distance between the bells is most critical with regard to the frequency. Can you describe the water you are using? Is it tap water or distilled with an electrolyte added or whatever?

Richard
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: helmut on August 11, 2008, 12:59:18 AM
hi every one I have also constructed one of these heaters and have to say you have got something here.

my amps ran at 3.5-4 after tuning and shifting the distance between the bells i managed to pull it down to 1-1.5 amps.
the time to bring my water to boil was halved.
i think with precision tuning we may do better.

i boil about a litre of water in 45s  to 1 minute don't know why the times differ though.

i am currently looking for better bells or domes and a better way to shift the distance.
i used two bicycle bells and PVC threaded rod this was the best i can do.

maybe ill have some good news in the future thanks guys for all the tips

@Digits

Good Job
Thanks for sharing.Can you add some pics or a sketch to have a visual imagination?

helmut
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on August 11, 2008, 04:42:00 PM
Hi Digits,

Thanks for posting the results of your work.

Are you running 220 volts 50Hz to the bells?  Were you able to check the resonant frequency of the bells before installation? Earlier postings indicated the bells must resonate at the frequency of the applied voltage. I think it would be difficult or impossible to make a bicycle bell to resonate at 50Hz...
...or any octave of this - i.e. 50hz, 100hz, 200hz, 400hz 800hz etc.

(in America, where they have mains at 60hz, it needs to be 60, 120, 240, 480hz etc)

A bicycle bell is likely to want the 400hz octave.

But cheap kitchen shops sell soup ladles and salad bowls which may well be much better.
With 50hz mains, you are looking to be a bit lower than G sharp, four frets up the highest
string of a guitar.

If you buy a set of pitch pipes for tuning a guitar, it will give you the G, and by
dinging the salad bowl in a shop, you may get in idea if it can be ground up to G sharp.
a salad bowl may give you a chance to aim for the 200hz or even the 100hz frequency.
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NerzhDishual on August 11, 2008, 10:54:49 PM
Hi Digits,

Thanks for sharing.
Your results sound very interesting.
Our amp consumption is very low and the fact that you
could, after tuning, had lowered you amp consumption
while halving the boiling time is amazing...
Can you use a watt meter?

Could you please post some pictures?

Best
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on August 11, 2008, 11:14:39 PM
1 litre in 1 minute is spectacular, particularily if it happening at 1-1.5A - my kettle takes over 5min @ 2KW to boil 1.7L!

Pics, measurments, more info, please... :)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: professor on August 12, 2008, 08:12:19 AM
Having read all the many posts with great interests and I found that there were many valid Ideas tossed around.
I did not want to double post and  therefore I made sure that the following was not suggested by any other member before.
I am a great believer in process of elimination.
Therefore I thought one should obtain two Identical Tuning Forks at 50 or 60 hertz depending  upon your line frequency,
These tuning forks are I think made of Brass or some other conductive metal.
Forget about the shape of the Bells for a while as you now have two precisely  tuned electrodes that you can subject to your Line voltage and frequency and it should be fairly easy to move them apart while observing the ampmeter. If at resonance with each other  I would expect that there is a "sweet spot"  and the amp reading should dip.
This is pure speculation but I think its worth a try.
I have moved to a fairly remote area where I no longer have access to anything and this is hampering my own experiments. Need some ferric Chloride, it has to be shipped minimum purchase from Vancouver etc. it is a costly undertaking.
Needed a function Generator Chip minimum order was 25 Dollars and since 9/11 they ask me a barrage of questions whether it is for military purposes and  what I am using it for etc. If you ask for KOH  I am afraid that they send someone to check me out.
I had another Idea that  has not been tried and I suppose it may just the mysery circuit that is inside Davey's sphere ?, namely  a stainless steel coil having both reactance and resistance. This coil could be wound to resonate at any harmonic frequency. I am not good in formulas and Math any more but there should be an optimum length's for 110VAC resistance and while this wire will heat up due to the currentflow it should also create an electromagnetic field that may ring both Bells.I think if you were to use a PWM Controller like a simple light dimmer you may enhance the effect of literary hammering the bells and also have tha ability to limit your current to start off with. If you are worried of blowing fuses just series up the circuit with a high load. I use an electric Oil Heater of 1500 Watts  just in case I create a short.
Another thought I had as far as the two half  Bells  welded together I think the Weld would stiffen and the temper would destroy their ability
to ring. Just a thought.
I think if any of these Ideas work in praxis then I will be another step closer to Stanley Meyers Invention as I feel that there is a very close correlation.
Professor
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on August 12, 2008, 03:34:49 PM

Therefore I thought one should obtain two Identical Tuning Forks at 50 or 60 hertz .....

If you ask for KOH  I am afraid that they send someone to check me out......
I doubt that anyone would make 50 or 60hz tuning forks. They are not musical notes.

KOH? Most people using KOH can use NaOH, which is sold for unblocking drains.

Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: petersone on August 12, 2008, 05:51:01 PM
Hi All
Been reading this thread with interest,just two questions,at the moment,if someone would be good enough to answer,do BOTH bells need to be tuned to 50hz?and doe's the surfice of the bells need to be totally parallel to each other over there intire area,if so by moving them together or apart they will of course not be totally parallel over the entire area.
I would like to replicate this one,but need to understand it all before I start,well as much as I can.
happy hunting
peter
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on August 12, 2008, 11:04:07 PM
This is the main problem, nothing is known for certain about what is required - everything posted here is mere speculation!  The only thing we have to go on is its general construction and that some form of 'resonance' is probably involved - hardly definitive!
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: petersone on August 12, 2008, 11:16:56 PM
Thank you Sprocket,that was a great help!!! Only kidding, can it be said that both bells need to be tuned,or is it just one?
On the distance apart thing,if they need to be parallel over the total area,it could be done with cones,if they will work,I think cones have been mentioned before.
happy hunting.
peter
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on August 13, 2008, 03:38:15 AM
I wish I knew, seriously!  I tried various setups but could get nothing extraordinary to happen.  Again, there are zero facts known about what makes this puppy work - we do not even have a ball-park figure on what power a 'working' heater uses!  I went and bought a digital thermometer and a few wattmeters with the intent of further investigating, but on 'discovering' electrode boilers, coupled with the sheer number of unknowns involved, I'm currently suffering an enthusaism deficiency... :D
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ggx9 on August 13, 2008, 05:56:07 AM
Hi Digits,

In reference to your August 10 posting, would you give the dimension between the bells? Was the starting water temperature the same as the room, could you give an estimate of that temperature?
Plugging in some guestimates for the missing numbers I calculate an approximate COP of 15!
Keep up the good work.

Richard
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on August 13, 2008, 03:41:35 PM
Hi All
Been reading this thread with interest,just two questions,at the moment,if someone would be good enough to answer,do BOTH bells need to be tuned to 50hz?and doe's the surfice of the bells need to be totally parallel to each other over there intire area
peter
Yes, if your mains is 50hz, (and of course, in the States it is 60), then both bells must
be tuned to 50hz - or any octave higher, i.e. 100hz, 200hz and the favourite, 400hz.

If the bells are identical, they will not be parallel exactly. It is a snag. In an ideal world,
the outer bell would have a radius larger than the inner one by the amount of the separation.

Keep it simple. Find some stainless steel soup ladles.

I am using the casing of a computer's power supply unit:
http://www.build-a-computer-guide.com/images/barebone-PSU.jpg
They can be picked up for nothing from an old scrapped computer or recycling centre.
The top sheet metal comes off, the insides can be removed and put aside. Cut a channel
in the "[" (channel) shaped sheet metal piece that comes off. Cut the handles off the ladles.
Drill a M8 hole in the centre of the ladle bowls. Buy some M8 screwed rod. Araldite the M8
bolts to the sheet metal piece, having put a small piece of insulator, glass, to insulate one
of the bowls from the other. You get the general idea.
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Digits on August 15, 2008, 06:53:25 PM
Hi guys sorry for replying so late I'm under allot of pressure.we are working on a power station on a Reverse Osmosis plant to be commissioned.
I  cannot give you foto's right now I'm away from home working on the plant but I am busy with drawings witch I will post later tonight to give you some idea.

first of all on the drawing Peter Davey shows that the wires should go through a little pipe or tube to each bell,I however could not do that for I only had a solid PVC threaded rod,so I just connected the neutral on the top bell and the live at the bottom on the bottom bell.
the wire did seem to hinder the performance of the element though,the best resalts was when the bells was running free,no wires touching the sides.thats obvious it hinders the bell from resonating freely.

Next I only tuned one bell(this is the key I think,and should be done very carefully) I don't know if I should tune the other one too, I just don't see it necessary for the 50HZ cycle will come from the live feeding the bottom bell that is tuned through to the other bell and dissipate via the neutral.I don't see that tuning the other bell will have any significance(I might be wrong but only experimenting will tell).

Now some one did mention that it might not really have to be 50HZ it might be 100,200,400 and so on and I found that to be true.
if you wantit to resonate at 50HZ its going to be a huge bell.I Have a guitar tuner and I tuned it to G,then I took my sinewave generator and put a speaker to it.I would then hit the bell and tune the generator to the same sound the bell made it was roughly 1550 to 1580 I don't know it sort of sounded the same to me.If I took some metal off the pitch will go higher so this is a very carefull exercise.

I used just plain old tap water I just wanted to see if it works.I had some electronisescoming of the bells not too much and when I touched the bucket the water was already warm and I could feel the water getting hotter almost every second.my water however don't heat as quick as Peter Davey' on the video though.
when the element is running I can actually feel the resonance it makes a nice buzz sound very soft and I can feel little vibrations almost like the sound that a transformer makes when it's on.

last I don't think this is OU it's really a very efficient way to heat liquid but I might be wrong I do have another question,if we tune this to resonance and swap the AC for DC and make the sine wave a square wave,would it not make one nice electronisis machine? just a thought.

you guys have asked allot of questions I hope I answered all if not let me know.( ill get back to you on that Pic's)

thank you

Digits
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Digits on August 15, 2008, 09:14:44 PM
Hey u guys I finnished the drawings this si about the setup I had.
someone asked the distance between the bells i will have to go home and messure that but that will only be in two weeks time.
iI think every setup will differ from the size of the bell to the mains u use and at what pitch you arre operating my advice is build one and finetune it.sometimes I will use very little amps and some allot of amps (10A+ -) and the boiling will take forever.and then you just hit the sweetspot and there you go.

In the sunny South Africa we use 220VAC @ 50 HZ

i attached the Pictures I hope this will give you a good idea of how it looks at home

thanks

Digits
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Digits on August 15, 2008, 09:23:30 PM
here is more
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: helmut on August 15, 2008, 11:17:26 PM
Hi Digits
Thanks alot for your reply, as well as for the Pics.
Now one can emagine, what was your setup.

If you arrive at home, it would be of much interest to do some mesurements.
First to know the start temperature of the Water and the Volume of it
second the rise of temperature according to time.
And finaly the Voltage, the current draw and the frequency.

However  thanks for your help, and have a nice time where you are.

helmut
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on August 16, 2008, 03:47:57 PM
I don't see that tuning the other bell will have any significance.....

I would then hit the bell and tune the generator to the same sound the bell made it was roughly 1550 to 1580....

The Davey method definitely requires BOTH bells to be tuned to mains freq or an octave thereof. This is very clear.

1550 - 1580 is almost two octaves on from 400.
The sequence runs 50, 100, 200, 400, 800, 1600, 3200, 6400, 12800 and then it is inaudible.
1580hz is on the right track. It ought to be 1600, but 1580 is not to be sneezed at.
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: petersone on August 16, 2008, 03:54:51 PM
Gradually gleaning the necessary information,thanks guys!!
What about the two bells being paraell over the whole area?
happy hunting
peter
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ggx9 on August 16, 2008, 09:42:42 PM
storre posted the first of this subject on February 9, 2008. If you download the attachment of 48 pages you will find the Davey article on pages 20 and 21 of the 48 pages. At the end of the article it says only the inner bell needs to be tuned to the mains frequency of 50 HZ. The drawing in the article shows the two bells of different diameters so as to create equal separation across their radii and text stating the same requirement. The spacing is stated as 3mm (about 1/8"), though a fine adjustment is needed for "tuning". There is also reference to "resonating of the cavity between the two hemispheres". Near the end of the article there is a photo showing the device next to a coin. Unfortunately there is a third bell showing so as to confuse the issue. I don't know what this third bell is for, but I would guess that it is part of the mounting hardware. I printed out these two pages as I consider it essential reference for this project.

Richard
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on August 16, 2008, 11:23:07 PM
May I ask what would happen at resonance with inner bell ? I assume that this bell will start to oscillate mechanically (?) electrically (?), not sure how but IMHO with much higher frequency. Do you have such feeling too ? If so it may be related to Stanley Meyer device except here is AC used and no electrolysis , just heating by water molecules vibration and collisions forced by high frequency current or oscillation.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on August 17, 2008, 03:45:35 PM
storre posted the first of this subject on February 9, 2008. If you download the attachment of 48 pages you will find the Davey article on pages 20 and 21 of the 48 pages. At the end of the article it says only the inner bell needs to be tuned to the mains frequency of 50 HZ.
On page 20/48 of this document, it says:
"The device comprises a hemispherical resonant cavity, formed from two metallic dome shapes, both of
which resonate at 50Hz...."

As for the gap being parallel, this is all very fine, but very difficult to achieve. I suspect tha, int any first device,
it would be best to use two identical bells - if only to get up and running.

In theory, if the gap is x mm, then the outer bell should have a radius x mm larger. But how are we to
obtain a range of bells with such tolerances?

It has been suggested that we work with software sine generators because attempting to tune a bell
to a signal from the mains four octaves different is extremely hard. I had a go with one, and it's error
at 50hz (compared to mains) was 1hz; the error at 440hz (compared to a quality tuning fork) was 3hz.
This idea may well work. Aiming to tune the bell to 800, this means tuning to the software corrected
by about 5hz.
Paul.
Title: Re: All My test results - myth busted
Post by: DOCV on September 24, 2008, 11:23:41 AM
I have a full report of my test results over the past 4 months. I personally think that this heater is nothing special. perhaps this will help others to prove me wrong.
Unfortunately this forum does not allow attachments over 100kb, so go to the Davey section on the energeticforum at http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/1414-daveys-water-heater-3.html Post no. 76
 
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: greendoor on September 26, 2008, 12:05:47 PM
I've been sitting on some ideas, but I may as well donate them to the party ... it will be interesting to see the spooks rip them apart ...

There is a simple way to avoid the whole tuning issue: feedback assisted sustain.  Think Jimi Hendrix (if you're old enough to remember).  Peter Davies is a violin player, and tuning comes naturally to musicians, but it can be a bit of a foreign concept to non-musicians.  But if we modify the design and use feedback, tuning becomes unnecessary.  It's the same principle as those feedback squeals you get when a microphone is pointed at PA speakers - any sound from the speakers gets picked up by the microphone and amplified.  The resonant nodes of the room will get more of a boost than other frequencies, therefore particular frequencies grow into feedback squeals first.  Guitar players can induce feedback by point their pickups at their amp speakers.

You could have a bell of any resonant frequency, and if you fitted transducers (e.g. coils) and a power amp you could get this into resonance very easily with no tuning required. 

I've been studying Kanarev (http://guns.connect.fi/innoplaza/energy/story/Kanarev/index.html), and I believe he might have the explanation for the overunity in this device.  He states that if molecule bonds are mechanically broken, rather than thermally broken, they liberate twice as much energy - and that the extra energy comes from the vacuum.  (That's an extremely crude paraphrase by me, so don't judge him by that comment - this guy deserves serious study).  He also explains why pulsing electricity is important to free energy - and has some good experiments on heating water and liberating hydrogen with low amps - all good stuff related to this subject.

I suspect the Peter Davies device accidentally stumbled on one or more principles of heating water - and identifying the actual overunity aspect might not be so obvious - especially with the high current draw.  But i'm thinking that the mechanical breaking of water bonds from acoustic pressure waves might be the key - think sonoluminesence and cavitation effects.  Having one tuned, vibrating bell cupped inside a larger static bell would give a could compression/cavitation surface area to rip the water apart.  The 240V is probably just a brute force diversion that may not be that necessary to the process, other than it is was an easy way in the 1940's to make this happen.

It would be very interesting to get a feedback-assisted bell, with a low-wattage amp (as a guitar player, I have a little Fender 9V plastic toy amp that gives great feedback sustain with an ordinary electric guitar - and that's with just air coupling between a tiny speaker and a thin string ... with a direct mechanical link, it could really make a tuned piece of steel howl). 

The beauty of feedback is that it naturally boosts whatever resonance already exists, and compounds it.  Things could get scary out of control, like Tesla.  Even those Mythbuster clowns got some interesting resonance effects with a steel beam, and they weren't even trying to tune anything.  (In fact, I suspect they had an agenda to divert attention away from this subject). 

If you play a bass guitar in a house, you can find some notes that could do damage to your house if you allowed feedback to sustain those notes ... there is awesome energy in resonance.  So if we could use this to tear water molecule bonds apart, and if zero-point energy is involved, as Kanarev suggests, there could be some very interesting energy results.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on September 26, 2008, 01:25:40 PM
I've been sitting on some ideas, but I may as well donate them to the party ... it will be interesting to see the spooks rip them apart ...
.. there is awesome energy in resonance.  So if we could use this to tear water molecule bonds apart, and if zero-point energy is involved, as Kanarev suggests, there could be some very interesting energy results.

Congratulations. You did not get discouraged by the negative posts on this topic and continued on working.
Very interesting link that Kanarev's place. One would need to spend many weeks to study his ideas.

Interesting statement about mechanically broken molecular bonds liberating more energy. I believe it could be the physics behind the mechanical (friction) liquid heaters. We are currently trying to build a mechanical heater to heat water in a closed circuit to heat up our homes. I chose the system in the patent that I will try to attach here because of simplicity and adaptability to current heaters that heat water by burning gas and circulate inside radiators in a closed loop system by the use of a pump.

The patent pdf is 300K so I am unable to attach it here.
Holder : Wilfred J Grenier
US Patent No : 4,454,861
Title : Fluid Friction Heater
You can get it from freepatentsonline as it is expired.

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on September 26, 2008, 04:03:56 PM
I've been sitting on some ideas, but I may as well donate them to the party ... it will be interesting to see the spooks rip them apart ...

There is a simple way to avoid the whole tuning issue: feedback assisted sustain.... 
This was proposed by me at the UK Free-Energy Conference a few weeks ago. The advantage is
that you have only to find two bells precisely in tune with each other. The disadvantage is that you
have all the amplification to deal with. Don't forget that a Hi-Fi amp, a musician's amp or PA amp
will not give you very high voltages. Pretty paltry voltages, in fact. but the idea should be good.
Since the quality of the waveform should not be critical, it would be possible to design a multi
stage crude amp for the project.
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on September 26, 2008, 04:06:30 PM
duplicate
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on September 26, 2008, 10:24:55 PM
It's not about being discouraged it's about science plain and simple. One can speculate and throw ideas around as much as you want but at the end of the day one must test these ideas out. The davey heater does not heat water any better than an element. The news item of him showing rapid boiling is only an effect. This has been recreated and efficiency is not overunity. The only person who has made claims to this is Dr Jan Pajak, but he himself has never recreated the effect. Does the Davey heat water quickly...yes by induction. Can one heat water using sound energy...maybe but is davey heating using this effect...highly unlikely.

How to test this out. Instead of tuning the bells to the mains frequency...tune the frequency to a harmonic of the bells. The science is the same only backwards. From this test (if it works) one will determine if the "audio" frequency is responsible for COP over 1 or if there is a dipole effect.

In my opinion the Davey heater has been verified and reproduced exactly as the news insert and their is NO COP of 20 infact their is no COP over 1.

If you are interested in water heaters that have potential to be highly efficient try the Eugene Frenette Patent 4143639 or the one which actually makes claims of overunity that had to be proven in order for the patent to be granted which does use a dipole effect (sorry can't find the reference right now) but it basically acts like a miniature aerial within a cavity the supposedly has a COP over 2. Once again these things need to be built in order to verify the results.   

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on September 26, 2008, 10:46:27 PM
Interesting...What about of induction of eddy currents directly INSIDE water ? Breaking hydrogen bonds... ??
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on September 27, 2008, 12:02:13 AM
Interesting...What about of induction of eddy currents directly INSIDE water ? Breaking hydrogen bonds... ??

I never checked for magnetic fields, but to set up an experiement to recreate eddie currents within the frame work of this heater is going to require some serious equipment. Eddie currents today is readily seen on rail/trains breaking systems.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on September 27, 2008, 12:21:43 PM

If you are interested in water heaters that have potential to be highly efficient try the Eugene Frenette Patent 4143639 or the one which actually makes claims of overunity that had to be proven in order for the patent to be granted which does use a dipole effect (sorry can't find the reference right now) but it basically acts like a miniature aerial within a cavity the supposedly has a COP over 2. Once again these things need to be built in order to verify the results.   

Thanks but Frenette is more an air (space) heater. I needed an adaptable water heater.
Grenier is perfect.
But I got curious about the other one you mentioned. More information, could you?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Cap-Z-ro on September 27, 2008, 04:03:22 PM
"it basically acts like a miniature aerial within a cavity the supposedly has a COP over 2."

Any clues as to where to find info on this device would be welcomed by all.
...


From my research into the Frenette or Friction heater, it can produce hot water by 3 methods.

1. Run water though the unit...replacing the captured oil.

2. Add another metal enclosure around the unit...thus creating a holding tank where the water is heated.

3. Enwrap the unit with app. 70 feet of snugly fit copper coil...with the cold entering at the bottom, and hot water exiting from the top part.

Regards...
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on September 27, 2008, 04:05:03 PM
It's not about being discouraged it's about science plain and simple. One can speculate and throw ideas around as much as you want but at the end of the day one must test these ideas out. The davey heater does not heat water any better than an element....
Build one and prove yourself wrong.
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Sprocket on September 27, 2008, 05:06:02 PM
Quote
It's not about being discouraged it's about science plain and simple. One can speculate and throw ideas around as much as you want but at the end of the day one must test these ideas out. The davey heater does not heat water any better than an element....

This statement is untrue, as at worst, the Davey heater will act as an "Electrode Boiler", which are known to be up to 99.9% efficient - ie. more effecient than "element heaters".

I have experimented with a few builds and can state definitively that Davey heaters do boils water much faster than at least one element heater - ie. my kettle!  The problem with this kind of experimentation is that it can get expensive, electricity-wise!  I was recently thinking though, if 'resonance' is the 'secret', then experimenting with pure distilled water would be the way to go - a Davey/Electrode heater would use no electricity 'normally', though neither will it boil the distilled water!  However this lack of activity could be looked on as a benefit, 'cos if resonance is the answer, current would only start flowing in appreciable amounts as the heater was 'tuned' to the 'sweet-spot' - LC-circuit-wise!
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on September 27, 2008, 09:19:06 PM
Thanks but Frenette is more an air (space) heater. I needed an adaptable water heater.
Grenier is perfect.
But I got curious about the other one you mentioned. More information, could you?

Will do on Monday - patent copy is at the office
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on September 27, 2008, 09:20:06 PM
Build one and prove yourself wrong.
Paul.

Build what?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on September 27, 2008, 09:22:01 PM
This statement is untrue, as at worst, the Davey heater will act as an "Electrode Boiler", which are known to be up to 99.9% efficient - ie. more effecient than "element heaters".

I have experimented with a few builds and can state definitively that Davey heaters do boils water much faster than at least one element heater - ie. my kettle!  The problem with this kind of experimentation is that it can get expensive, electricity-wise!  I was recently thinking though, if 'resonance' is the 'secret', then experimenting with pure distilled water would be the way to go - a Davey/Electrode heater would use no electricity 'normally', though neither will it boil the distilled water!  However this lack of activity could be looked on as a benefit, 'cos if resonance is the answer, current would only start flowing in appreciable amounts as the heater was 'tuned' to the 'sweet-spot' - LC-circuit-wise!

Who cares about 99.9% this forum is supposed to be about overunity and the Davey heater does not cut it. Sorry
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on September 28, 2008, 03:29:23 PM
Build what?
There's a clue in the message title.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on September 28, 2008, 04:20:13 PM
There's a clue in the message title.

already built many. what are you trying to say?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Digits on September 28, 2008, 10:18:55 PM
Hi guys this is Digits

From my experiments i have found that this is a very efficient way to boil water ad very efficient way.
the draw back are that if there are calcium in the water it will start to form scaling on the one bell.
So some times my water will boil quick and other not so quick due to the minerals in the water.

And yes I have to agree I found that if you have a bell not necessary at 50HZ but any frequency and you take a voltage and let it resonate at the same frequency it will definitely work the second bell will be a problem if ti's not tuned the same as the first.

two suggestion's though
 
You can always boil oil also for heating alternatives

And if your setup is tuned to perfection then swap the sinewave for a square wave pulsed at the resonant frequency,will this not be a great HHO reactor

Anyway this is only my thoughts on it
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: professor on September 29, 2008, 06:20:19 AM
Good analysis sprocket!

This statement is untrue, as at worst, the Davey heater will act as an "Electrode Boiler", which are known to be up to 99.9% efficient - ie. more effecient than "element heaters".

I have experimented with a few builds and can state definitively that Davey heaters do boils water much faster than at least one element heater - ie. my kettle!  The problem with this kind of experimentation is that it can get expensive, electricity-wise!  I was recently thinking though, if 'resonance' is the 'secret', then experimenting with pure distilled water would be the way to go - a Davey/Electrode heater would use no electricity 'normally', though neither will it boil the distilled water!  However this lack of activity could be looked on as a benefit, 'cos if resonance is the answer, current would only start flowing in appreciable amounts as the heater was 'tuned' to the 'sweet-spot' - LC-circuit-wise!
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on September 29, 2008, 08:04:43 AM
Another theory:
correct frequency of electric field convert part of  water into cold steam breaking hydrogen bonds between water molecule, then sinewave AC bouncing molecules heat it up very fast. The first is crucial, and if this is correct it's strongly related to Stanley Meyer original water fuel cell.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on October 01, 2008, 02:29:23 PM
Thanks but Frenette is more an air (space) heater. I needed an adaptable water heater.
Grenier is perfect.
But I got curious about the other one you mentioned. More information, could you?

Posted this, but it is not appearing, so here goes again.
Patent 4517427
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on October 01, 2008, 04:58:39 PM
Another theory:
correct frequency of electric field convert part of  water into cold steam breaking hydrogen bonds between water molecule, then sinewave AC bouncing molecules heat it up very fast. The first is crucial, and if this is correct it's strongly related to Stanley Meyer original water fuel cell.
Also, the resonance may cause dissociation into monatomic atoms and immediate
recombing. They can be noisy, and this points to cavitation. Remember the fabled
hydro vacuo machine of John Worrell Keely?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on October 10, 2008, 09:41:18 AM
@ALL,
I got across a real free energy heater IF there is already a moving liquid or gas inside a pipe!
Please read the following patent and any comments will be highly appreciated.
US5773798

I made a simple room heater design in the following way :
Take a pipe (some pipes) and build the structure inside.
With a small electric motor turn the structure while blowing air
inside the pipe.
On the other side of the pipe get heated air.

I know my design is not free energy but would be a highly efficient heater
as the motor is a small one. It all depends on how hot the air on the other side
would be. It could even be OU if it is hot enough.

1. I intend to build this design and am curious about your comments on how
efficient it would be.

2. It could be made into a closed loop water heating system for household heating
purposes as well. How efficient would that one be?

Dev
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: FreeEnergy on October 10, 2008, 09:54:43 AM
@ALL,
I got across a real free energy heater IF there is already a moving liquid or gas inside a pipe!
Please read the following patent and any comments will be highly appreciated.
US5773798

I made a simple room heater design in the following way :
Take a pipe (some pipes) and build the structure inside.
With a small electric motor turn the structure while blowing air
inside the pipe.
On the other side of the pipe get heated air.

I know my design is not free energy but would be a highly efficient heater
as the motor is a small one. It all depends on how hot the air on the other side
would be. It could even be OU if it is hot enough.

1. I intend to build this design and am curious about your comments on how
efficient it would be.

2. It could be made into a closed loop water heating system for household heating
purposes as well. How efficient would that one be?

Dev

please post graphical explanation
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on October 10, 2008, 10:26:11 AM
please post graphical explanation

Thanks.
Did you get the patent pdf?
I attach it here in case some of you do not want to bother with
www.freepatentsonline.com membership.
When you see the graphics in the patent doc
my design will be obvious to you without further drawings.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: FreeEnergy on October 10, 2008, 10:37:31 AM
thanks, i am about to look at the file now... like to see your home made version. off to see the file now...
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on October 10, 2008, 10:57:34 AM
thanks, i am about to look at the file now... like to see your home made version. off to see the file now...

On the first page of the patent there is an image.
According to my design I attach a small motor on the side of "f" that both
turns the heating line "L" and blows air in.

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on October 10, 2008, 06:36:25 PM
@ALL,
I got across a real free energy heater IF there is already a moving liquid or gas inside a pipe!
Please read the following patent and any comments will be highly appreciated.
US5773798
Is this like normal induction heating, like the classic induction furnace? Why do you
think this might be over unity?
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on October 10, 2008, 08:17:24 PM
My understanding is that the device is not powered at all.
The liquid or gas normally turns the whole structure and magnetic
lines between the triple square "a" and magnets are made and broken
continuously which in turn heats the passing liquid or gas.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on October 17, 2008, 02:33:02 PM
My understanding is that the device is not powered at all.
The liquid or gas normally turns the whole structure and magnetic
lines between the triple square "a" and magnets are made and broken
continuously which in turn heats the passing liquid or gas.

Are you all very busy?
I do not think that any of you do not have any ideas about this device.
Title: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: kidgrok on October 23, 2008, 09:34:05 PM
I've been reading entries in this forum for the past couple months as time has allowed and from the start it seemed like something BIG was being missed throughout.  Until I actually have the time to do my own research and experimentation I'd like to put a bug in the ear of anyone actually working on this project.

Although I believe Davey may have been just a bit on the secretive side with regards to the fact, his heater neither relies on, nor wants, conduction of electricity by the heated medium.  I.e., the premise is based upon mechanical heating of a liquid, not electrical, per se.  Granted, Davey used electricity to excite his bells into resonant vibration; but I think the main problem he had to overcome in making his invention of practical use was insulating the bells so that there was no electrical contact with the liquid.  This insulation is what would allow the heater to work "with any liquid"--including, say, distilled water which is normally non-conductive.

The power draw required simply to produce vibration in properly tuned bells--or any surface designed to efficiently produce a monotone--will be relatively small.  At resonant frequency, the excitation of molecules of any medium (including air) "caught" between the vibrating surfaces will be extremely high and will produce the type of mechanical heating Davey discovered.  All this makes sense intuitively but still poses design challenges that explain the difficulty of putting the idea into practice.  I, for one, am intrigued enough to devote time to the problem (eventually) since I think it could offer the "engine" for a fabulous next-generation, low power instantaneous water heater. 

We're getting to the point in the energy crisis where the mercenary powers that be will need to find new agendas that embrace conservation even while adding to those powers' filthy riches.  There will be less tendency on their part to stifle the commercial development of such a promising technology.  For my part, I just want a cheaper way to heat my household water!
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on October 23, 2008, 10:10:48 PM
I agree with you.Cavitation may be the secret hidden inside Davey heater. That's I described in one of previous post, may be mechanical oscillator similar to cavitation heater rotor which is commercially available but costly and require powerful electric motor.60hz is exactly 3600 rpm and 50hz is near that value.
Now the secret would be how to build insulated spheres to allow them to deflect surface according to the current (?). Each sphere should be in separate phase so their surfaces should be once closer then further one each other.or maybe even that deflection should propagate across circle thus efficiently rotating water at high speed.
All these without rotating parts ! It must be very clever construction yet I think it is simple in view.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on October 23, 2008, 10:13:55 PM
singing bowl
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on October 23, 2008, 11:44:49 PM
This is like watch someone flogging a dead horse.
The Peter Davey heater does NOT use resonance and is not overunity.

We can kick theories around all day, but for heavens sake build something to talk about.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: devrimogun on October 24, 2008, 09:56:54 AM
This is like watch someone flogging a dead horse.
The Peter Davey heater does NOT use resonance and is not overunity.

We can kick theories around all day, but for heavens sake build something to talk about.
We understand your frustration but
with all due respect you do not know more then any of us here.
Just stop putting people down.
Let people communicate their ideas freely.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on October 24, 2008, 03:53:07 PM
Perhaps you are right, but let's at least stop referring to the Davey heater as some amazing heating unit that uses audio vibrations to exert excess energy that heats water rapidly.

The Davey heater works by induction, it's as simple as that!

However if one wants to pursue whether an overunity effect can be realized by using his model of dome shaped objects then the following has to be undertaken.

Alter the mains frequency so that it is a harmonic of the 1st bell unit, not the other way around. The second bell will of course have to be a harmonic of the 1st and the distance between the two will have to be adjusted in case there is a dipole effect. This is the next logical step forward, not Himalayan singing bowls.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on October 24, 2008, 03:57:01 PM
The Davey heater works by induction, it's as simple as that!
If this were true, tuning would not matter.
What is your evidence for this remark?
I don't think you know your a**se from your elbow, DOCV.
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: DOCV on October 25, 2008, 12:34:13 AM
If this were true, tuning would not matter.
What is your evidence for this remark?
I don't think you know your a**se from your elbow, DOCV.
Paul.

I did not say that there is no merit in finding out if the sound theory is possible only that the Davey claim of so called tuning is a red herring.
The theory is the same as a wave action, add another wave at the right frequency and the initial and consequent waves should increase. Whether this works between two bells is another story.

As for your remark it shows the vague appeals of a delinquent with meaningless abstractions, Grammar is not the measure of a man, but it is an excellent indicator of the quality of thought behind the words being spoken. Poor thinkers have always retreated behind ill-phrased, unclear statements, hoping their readers will do their thinking for them.
Time to leave this topic. Just like Paul it's going nowhere.
 
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: NewAge on October 30, 2008, 09:21:37 PM
Perhaps you are right, but let's at least stop referring to the Davey heater as some amazing heating unit that uses audio vibrations to exert excess energy that heats water rapidly.

The Davey heater works by induction, it's as simple as that!

However if one wants to pursue whether an overunity effect can be realized by using his model of dome shaped objects then the following has to be undertaken.

Alter the mains frequency so that it is a harmonic of the 1st bell unit, not the other way around. The second bell will of course have to be a harmonic of the 1st and the distance between the two will have to be adjusted in case there is a dipole effect. This is the next logical step forward, not Himalayan singing bowls.

How then you explain the pictures showing boiling water and 8A current on the meter? Can you boil water INSTANTLY with 8A/220V? I can't.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on October 31, 2008, 03:42:17 PM
How then you explain the pictures showing boiling water and 8A current on the meter? Can you boil water INSTANTLY with 8A/220V? I can't.
Yes, NewAge. You're right.

What DOCV has forgotten, if he ever knew, is that the Davey heater originated from a
fighter pilot diving his aircraft, and getting a strange heating effect in the cokpit
if he could achieve certain frequencies with engine speed and various other rattling
components (cockpit canopy, probably).

The work has been replicated on many occasions, and if the tuning is good, then the
results are remarkable. Manufacturers have backed off because they do not believe that
it will be possible to pass safety regulations when putting mains electricity into water.
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on November 01, 2008, 11:36:43 PM
Yes, NewAge. You're right.

What DOCV has forgotten, if he ever knew, is that the Davey heater originated from a
fighter pilot diving his aircraft, and getting a strange heating effect in the cokpit
if he could achieve certain frequencies with engine speed and various other rattling
components (cockpit canopy, probably).

The work has been replicated on many occasions, and if the tuning is good, then the
results are remarkable. Manufacturers have backed off because they do not believe that
it will be possible to pass safety regulations when putting mains electricity into water.
Paul.


YES! Definitely Davey found an effect called magnetostriction : http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/solids/magstrict.html

That joined with cavitation explain his device very well. The external shell is resonant cavity and probably contains very small holes. The internal bell is made from highly magnetostriction material. Both are probably somehow insulated to limit current but still allow magnetostriction.The effect is and contraction/expansion process of inner bell walls at 100 or 120 hz frequency which in correct shape should produce circulation of water between bells at around 3600 rpm, very similar to commerial cavitation heaters driven by electric motor.


 
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on November 01, 2008, 11:37:42 PM
look for 2 x grid current frequency !
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on November 03, 2008, 04:38:43 PM
look for 2 x grid current frequency !
Any octave of the grid frequency will do:
In the USA, 60hertz, 120, 240 480, 960 etc

In Europe, 50 Hz, 100, 200, 400, 800.

Davey's bicycle bells were around 800. About three frets up the highest string of a guitar

Paul
 
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on December 11, 2008, 12:11:36 AM

                         FW Woolworth's collapse

Special opportunity for people in Britain.

The demise of Woolies has its sadness, but they are selling off
EVERYTHING at half price.

This should include these stainless steel products:

soup ladles
woks
salad bowls
lids on waste baskets

All of these will be suitable for Davey research. I do not
know (and would like to know - any offers?) the relationship
between diameter and resonant frequency. But it would be
very interesting to get a large wok which could be tuned up to
50hz (a very low note indeed).

(My 30cm wok appears to resonate at B above the G# near
50hz). It would mean cutting a great deal off to get to 100hz.
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on December 11, 2008, 09:15:44 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGT5PB733a0

I just realized what they are saying in video."high frequency sonic vibration" Huh!?
100hz is not high frequency. Do they know something or just guessing ? Listen carefully.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on December 11, 2008, 12:00:57 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tGT5PB733a0

I just realized what they are saying in video."high frequency sonic vibration" Huh!?
100hz is not high frequency. Do they know something or just guessing ? Listen carefully.
At the moment, I can't view videos, but I suspect that there are
two unconnected technologies here.

The key to Davey is not high frequency; it is tuning the bells to the
exact frequency (or an octave) of the mains electricity.
Paul.
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: tagor on May 15, 2010, 03:57:04 PM
do you know this heater : H E T ?
it seems to work just like this Peter Davey Heater
there are selling devices in france , germany and US 

French
http://www.prlog.org/10622883-new-technology-produces-environmentally-friendly-electricity-using-nitrogen-a037.html (http://www.prlog.org/10622883-new-technology-produces-environmentally-friendly-electricity-using-nitrogen-a037.html)
 
 
Germany
http://www.heat-deutschland.com/femradd.html (http://www.heat-deutschland.com/femradd.html)
http://www.heat-solution.com/anglais/accueil-gb.html (http://www.heat-solution.com/anglais/accueil-gb.html)
http://www.openpr.de/news/275335/Bis-zu-70-Prozent-weniger-Heizkosten-ohne-eigene-CO2-Emissionen.html (http://www.openpr.de/news/275335/Bis-zu-70-Prozent-weniger-Heizkosten-ohne-eigene-CO2-Emissionen.html)
 
 

US

http://www.prlog.org/10622883-new-technology-produces-environmentally-friendly-electricity-using-nitrogen-a037.html (http://www.prlog.org/10622883-new-technology-produces-environmentally-friendly-electricity-using-nitrogen-a037.html)

http://www.press-releases-news.com/press-release/new-technology-produces-environmentally-friendly-electricity-using-nitrogen-a037/ (http://www.press-releases-news.com/press-release/new-technology-produces-environmentally-friendly-electricity-using-nitrogen-a037/)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Rapadura on May 15, 2010, 05:56:23 PM
"The turbines are installed in specially equipped cylinder and driven by an acceleration force which is generated by a fixed amount of nitrogen. The projection of nitrogen into the interior of the cylinder causes the immediate start of FeMRaDD. The continuous circulation of nitrogen in the Zylinderinneren requires an immediate run-off by the visible and hidden elements in the direction of flow of another component, the recycling reservoir FDD / R. The reservoir appears in the form of tubes. These are filled with nitrogen and equipped with various measuring instruments and security. At startup, the reservoir is extremely accurate, and under precisely defined pressure on the nitrogen injection nozzles positioned exactly at least 31 in the interior of the cylinder."


Nitrogen generator?

What is this? One more S-C-A-M ??
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on May 16, 2010, 12:07:12 AM

This FeMRaDD technology seems very interesting, but I doubt that
it is Peter daysh Davey, which is, in its essence, very simple.

At $18,000, their gear is not that expensive. It should be possible
to find a hospital or similar to buy one on the grounds that, if it
doesn't work as described, they should be able to get their money
back under the "Sale of Goods Act" (UK law).
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: tagor on May 16, 2010, 06:20:25 AM
This FeMRaDD technology seems very interesting, but I doubt that
it is Peter daysh Davey, which is, in its essence, very simple.

At $18,000, their gear is not that expensive. It should be possible
to find a hospital or similar to buy one on the grounds that, if it
doesn't work as described, they should be able to get their money
back under the "Sale of Goods Act" (UK law).

 
there are several technologies femradd , stnda , clai , het , pec
I speak of the heater H E T
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on May 16, 2010, 03:36:26 PM
there are several technologies femradd , stnda , clai , het , pec
I speak of the heater H E T
The links you gave in message 439 take us to Femradd. Do you have
a link to the H E T device that you mention?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: mscoffman on May 16, 2010, 04:52:59 PM

YES! Definitely Davey found an effect called magnetostriction : http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu/hbase/solids/magstrict.html

That joined with cavitation explain his device very well. The external shell is resonant cavity and probably contains very small holes. The internal bell is made from highly magnetostriction material. Both are probably somehow insulated to limit current but still allow magnetostriction.The effect is and contraction/expansion process of inner bell walls at 100 or 120 hz frequency which in correct shape should produce circulation of water between bells at around 3600 rpm, very similar to commerial cavitation heaters driven by electric motor.

I agree completely with what you are saying...Notice that there is a
slight error previously expressed by in peoples thinking in this thread.
The bell would have to ring at 50Hz/60Hz - Under Water and
couple efficiently there. That is slightly different then having it ring at
50Hz in air. A big problem with it would be the different conductivities
of water from various locals. Also given enough conductivity it isn't too
surprising that the water can heat up fast, that is the principle behind
on-demand water heaters.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: kampen on May 16, 2010, 05:51:08 PM

H.E.T. (Hydroelectrothermics on precise vibration )

H.E.T. is a space-saving device (90x129x295mm) which allows each type of hot water heating, old or new, hot water floor heating and indoor pool to work autarkically by using Hydroelectrotherm.

see below the link for the H.E.T. -device:

http://www.heat-solution.com/anglais/het-01-GB.html
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: tagor on May 16, 2010, 06:31:58 PM
The links you gave in message 439 take us to Femradd. Do you have
a link to the H E T device that you mention?

the link was in germany
 
http://www.heat-solution.com/anglais/accueil-gb.html (http://www.heat-solution.com/anglais/accueil-gb.html)

all the devices in france and germany are with the heater
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 17, 2010, 02:12:28 PM
Tagor

Any specs?
who sells this?

Thanks
Chet
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: tagor on May 17, 2010, 04:56:26 PM
Tagor

Any specs?
who sells this?

Thanks
Chet

 
in france
   
HEAT SAS Allée de la Boëgerie 74130 BONNEVILLE
Tél. 04 50 25 25 25
 
Fabrication produits :
and germany
 
HEAT Deutschland GmbH :
Siemens Industrie Park, Siemensallee - 84 Karlsruhe 76187
Tél : 0049 / 0/ 721 531 695 70
Mail : heat-deutschland@t-online.de

 
I gave all the links , 3 post up
 
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4083.msg241485#msg241485 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=4083.msg241485#msg241485)
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on May 17, 2010, 05:37:04 PM
Their web site says it is patented. Does anyone know the number?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: tagor on May 18, 2010, 07:15:35 AM
Their web site says it is patented. Does anyone know the number?

 
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on May 18, 2010, 03:56:28 PM
Tagor

Its not that  I'm lazy {I don't read french}

But,

Are there specific efficiency claims ?

Comparisons to conventional elec heat??

Thanks

Chet
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on May 18, 2010, 04:29:32 PM
Excellent work, Tagor.

Chew on this, folks:
http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20070316&CC=FR&NR=2890724A1&KC=A1
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on May 18, 2010, 04:35:33 PM
Maybe it was patented in GB also ? Seems logical.I do not know French  >:(
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: tagor on May 18, 2010, 04:37:05 PM
Tagor

Its not that  I'm lazy {I don't read french}

But,

Are there specific efficiency claims ?

Comparisons to conventional elec heat??

Thanks

Chet

I read some post ( french forum ) , french users saying that it is very efficient ...
but I dont know if it is for real or spamming info
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: tagor on May 18, 2010, 04:42:11 PM
Maybe it was patented in GB also ? Seems logical.I do not know French  >:(

some body has to translate it !
 
but he did not say a lot on the process
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: pese on May 18, 2010, 05:23:47 PM
als google to translate it !

I done it here

http://translate.google.de/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fv3.espacenet.com%2FpublicationDetails%2Fdescription%3Flocale%3Den_EP%26KC%3DA1%26date%3D20070316%26NR%3D2890724A1%26DB%3DEPODOC%26CC%3DFR%26FT%3DD&sl=fr&tl=en&hl=&ie=UTF-8

Pese


My Link collecetions
www.alt-nrg.de/pppp
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: mscoffman on May 18, 2010, 06:08:49 PM
Direct translation of the above text.

[Exhibit A];

A device to heat water by Water électrothermie without going through
a traditional boiler or its accessories.  Allowing the device to heat
water for a single radiator or a minimum of two [2] radiators in the
case of the central heating.  The device constitutes electrical
resistance heating with a variable amount of power (1) linked to the
metallic pipe (2) and a mini-pump (3) as well as to a thermostat (16)
and a circuit breaker for security (17) that allows the placement in
hallway or the alcove of the device.  When the device is connected
to the transmission and return line pipes of a circuit-loop of radiators
and when the electrical connection is established, the mini pumps
circulates water from the radiators and repressurises it and sends it
(6) through the metallic heating tube (2) heated by the resistance (1);
thus hot water is circulated through the radiators. To allow production
of domestic hot water with this device, it is necessary to replace the
centrifugal-pump (3) with a pressure regulator. 

---

[Exhibit B];

The heating system uses an insulated and safe electrical resistance (1) in
a linear or toroid shape and with variable power, linked to a metal tube (2)
through which water heated by the resistance is circulated in a loop
through one or more radiators by means of a mini-pump (3). The resistance
is also turned on by a thermostatic switch when a domestic hot water tap
is opened, providing an immediate supply of hot water when needed.

---

Interesting differences between the two. No claims of overunity
anywhere. Does not really say what resistance is used for heating unless
"électrothermie" has some unknown connotations.  I don't know where
the word "toroidial" comes from, doesn't seem like the appropriate word
for a circular coil?

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on May 18, 2010, 11:22:30 PM
...also, there is no mention of the centre of Peter Daysh Davey,
namely that the bells are fed with an electrical signal whose
frequency matches that of the bells themselves (or an octave).
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: TheCell on June 01, 2010, 05:57:01 PM
As mentioned in the H.E.T. heater specification document (german) on Page 3 (4 PAGES HET ALLEMAND 02-09.pdf)

'Leistungszahl COP 4'
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: mscoffman on October 04, 2010, 05:23:45 PM
@all

To anyone interested in this thread. If you want to actually
implement this device you should check out the following
Web link;

http://freddyscell.com/

The first CF cold fusion anomaly makes it possible to interchange
the type of excess energy output from a CF device. So while the
heater puts out excess heat the device listed in the Web link
puts out excess HHO gas which can be immediately burnt to produce
excess heat energy. The device has an energy gain of about (6x) six
times the input energy.

CF anomalies

Now there are three anomilistic areas of CF that make it different
for other normal energetic processes.

A) Output Energy Re-vectoring.
 
The first is the hydrogen chemical reaction vector. This says that
the D+D two deuterium atom fusion reaction CF energy output is
directed along the lines of the underlying H hydrogen energy
reaction. So this means that if the hydrogen reaction cause
excess heat then the CF D+D reaction produces more heat.
If the hydrogen reaction produces HHO gas then the CF D+D
reaction produces more HHO gas. Finally if the hydrogen reaction
produces electrochemical charge in a battery then the CF D+D
reaction produces more charge on the battery.

B) Ionizing Radiation Suppression

Next is the lack of effects of long range ionizing radiation from the
the initial reaction which is what makes the CF reaction with the
stainless steel target electrodes being discussed - safe to use.

C) 100% Dueterised Scientific Experiments.

Scientist's experiments use fully deuteriated experimental systems
where 100% of the hydrogen is the [2]H isotope D. So this means
that every TCB terminal bubble potentially targets a reactable
center. This is called heavy water. And is expected to boost
reactability. Us peons have to use natural water in which
only .0176% (.000176) H of all atoms are deuterium. which mean
only .000176^2 squared which is a very small figure probability of
reactions, will result in D+D fusion. So this asserts a very small
probability mask over any given reaction. It's important to note
that fully light water, which is not natural product, is 100% H with
no D at all, and this should not produce any D+D fusion activity.

---

You will notice that Freddy acoustically tunes the electrolyzer
tubes. The Harvey Davies heater therefore pre-suggests
overunity energy in acoustically reasonant electrolyzers.
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ax6U0xXMwBk

While acoustic phonons initiate the CF reaction I also suspect that
there is accoustic sorting going on to increase the concentration
of D in heavy water at various points (nodes) so that the D+D
fusion reaction proceeds with higher than normal probability. This
makes the electrolyzer sort of an acoustic hydro-molecular seive.

I've also wondered whether pistol shrimp concentrate heavy water
for this purpose probably via chemical means.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: forest on October 04, 2010, 05:32:31 PM
It struck me ! This device can work implementing parametric oscillator resonance!
It is now very clear and very possible.

Davey device is nothing but capacitor with a moving plates synchronized to the applied sinusoidal signal frequency at correct phase. Then the missing part is COIL or inductance element !!!
Capacitance of Peter Davey device is changing in correct time rising the power in RLC resonant circuit.
In ideal situation we need a couple of watts to boil water after some quite short time.

Case closed for me. ;D
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: ramset on October 04, 2010, 08:15:50 PM
SSOOoo....

Forest, How hard would it be to make one??
can you "See" it?,You make it sound so clear!

I believe an OU event is not uncommon,
It is the harvest,Or to change the natural sequence into an unnatural "Event"[Harvest}!
That Would seem to be the "trick"!

Do you think "Now","Today", that you can be that tricky!

Tricky enough to out smart nature?
Or at least use some of Natures "tricks"[techniques] ,to benefit man?

Chet
PS,It would seem the "WITTS" boiler is the same "Technique"
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: elgersmad on March 15, 2011, 08:12:29 PM
Ok, the first page starts with resonance as the means of heating water.  The last page of the post ends with resistance wire and a heating element.

First, any piece of pipe can be used as a resonant cavity.  All you need is the speed of sound through water, measure the amount of time it takes for sound to travel that distance, then half that to find the first fundamental frequency for a standing wave.  If you look into steam whistle design, or whistle design you find the same details.  50Hz isn't a target.  Piezoelectric speakers produce the most sound power with the least amount of energy.  I would look into actuators and transducers because, they can produce much more force, enough for friction welding and welding plastics.  Yea, resonance can produce allot of heat but, with friction welding and welding plastics, those horns use brute force.

You would use whistle dimensioning equations diameter to length for the ideal steam whistle, allot of math has already been done, to find the right standing wave cavity.  Usually, the diameter times 3 is right for the length.  Then you take the speed of sound and divide the length of time to travel to the end of the tube by 2.  Then you convert the time period to a frequency.  I would expect that Iron Pipe would work better for having a higher hardness even though brittle.  But, copper and aluminum wouldn't be as effective over time.  The speed of sound in water is 1482 Meters per second.  So, if the diameter of the pipe were one foot or 12 inches, then a one meter long piece of pipe would oscillate with a standing wave at 2,964 Hz, and all the energy can do inside that length of pipe is build up.  If you divide up the length of pipe into 5 equal seconds, you'd place your transducer or transducers at the intersection of the first and second equal length, and intersection of the fourth and fifth.  That's the antinodes of standing wave.  Your transducers are most likely to experience the most stress there.  The other location is at the end of the pipe and center which would release the piezoelectric transducer's energy from the center of the pipe's diameter and at the node of the standing wave, where the build up of energy is typically nearly zero.  Best locations are not always the most logical locations.

http://electron9.phys.utk.edu/phys135d/modules/m10/waves.htm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steam_whistle
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: CompuTutor on March 16, 2011, 02:10:45 AM
**************************************************
Here is the original (PDF) document in French:

http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?CC=FR&NR=2890724A1&KC=A1&FT=D&date=20070316&DB=EPODOC&locale=en_EP

**************************************************
Here is the starting point from Paul-R above:

Abstract:
http://v3.espacenet.com/publicationDetails/biblio?DB=EPODOC&adjacent=true&locale=en_EP&FT=D&date=20070316&CC=FR&NR=2890724A1&KC=A1

The heating system uses an insulated and safe electrical resistance (1) in a linear or toroid shape and with variable power, linked to a metal tube (2) through which water heated by the resistance is circulated in a loop through one or more radiators by means of a mini-pump (3). The resistance is also turned on by a thermostatic switch when a domestic hot water tap is opened, providing an immediate supply of hot water when needed.

**************************************************
Here are my translations to english with links.

Attached at the end are the three diagrams also:
Fig-1of3.jpg
Fig-2of3.jpg
Fig-3of3.jpg

********************

Description:
http://translationgateway.epo.org/emtp/gw/?ACTION=description-retrieval&OPS=ops.epo.org&LOCALE=en_EP&FORMAT=docdb&COUNTRY=FR&NUMBER=2890724&KIND=A1&T=1

Present invention relates to an apparatus to heat the water of

radiators with water, to produce sanitary hot water by Hydro Electrothermics without passing by a boiler and its equipments.

Traditionally, the system of the central heating with hot water functions using a boiler with the fuel, gas, the wood or coal. The burner of the boiler transforms fuel into a flame which heats a serpentine containing of cold water. Water thus heated is sent in the radiators thanks to one or two pumps.

This system of heating, having like main element water, very healthy residue.

Although this system is used the most in the hearths, it present several disadvantages: complex and relatively expensive installation comprising a boiler, a burner, a tank or tanker requiring a made safe placement, - use of substantial amounts in linear metres of tubes out of copper or Crosslinked polyethylene (derivative of the petroleum) or out of galvanized steel for the conduction of 1 hot water towards the radiators (which more is, these tubes contributes to a loss of the heat since the extended one of the boiler until the arrival with the radiators), - maintenance or adjustment of the burner, - need of a conduit of chimney. Another large disadvantage nowadays residue the CO2 and SO2 outburst coming from the fuel and which contributes to the increase of the effect of greenhouse and the pollution, .2 D atmospheric.

These last years, the domestic manufacturers of radiators launched on the market of the radiators dry napkins special for rooms of baths. These radiators being tubular, they cannot for technical reasons, being not used in the other parts of dwelling.

The apparatus in accordance with the invention not only makes it possible to cure these disadvantages but its applications in four different cases make four separate apparatuses of them, with common technical principles, bringing each one maximum of comfort without technical concern. By preoccupation with a simplicity, the characteristics will be enumerated by it in four cases A-B-CD, according to their uses.

3 p the apparatus according to case's A has as an object to modify the existing domestic central heating system functioning with the fuel or gas, sanitary hot water producing and comprising a minimum number of 2 radiators with water. It indeed comprises, according to a first feature, a formed protected heating electrical resistance 4 O in torus of revolution, of variable power. According to a second characteristic, the resistance is connected to a formed metal tube also in torus of revolution through which heated water circulates when the tube is connected to the tubular circuit of the central heating.

According to a third characteristic, the flow in loop of the water heated in the whole of the radiators is done via a mini electric pump of variable power connected to the aforesaid metal tube. This pump allows a quasi instantaneous diffusion of the water heat in the circuit of the radiators.

According to a fourth characteristic, the apparatus in accordance with the invention comprises 4 a 0 electronic controller of water heat.

According to a fifth characteristic, the apparatus is provided with a circuit breaker 30 my with protection with the apparatus and persons.

According to modes' particular of performing, the three annexed drawings illustrate the performing and the application of the device in 4 cases A - B C D. 15 figure 1 represents the apparatus of the invention according to case's a: the heating electrical resistance (1) is connected by its end (5) to the tube (4) whose other end is connected to the mouth of delivery (6) of a mini special pump hot water (3), the end (7) of the heating resistance is connected to the tube (8). This tube is attached with the metallic wall of the box (9) of the apparatus by a male connector or female (10) which residue in waiting of branch on the return pipe (R) of the existing central heating by the tube (11), the mouth of suction (12) of the mini pump is attached by the tube (13) with the metallic wall of the box of the apparatus (9), by a male connector or female (14) which residue in waiting of branch on the pipe of arrival (A) of the existing central heating by the tube (15) the temperature controller of the water of the radiators (16) is connected to the heating electrical resistance (1) the electrical circuit breaker 30 milliamperes (17) allows the operation of the 38 apparatus and ensures the safety of the components of the apparatus and the persons. Placement and setting in running of the apparatus according to case's a: stop of the boiler and insulation of the existing heating system by its valves.

- branch of the tubes (11) and (15) on the tubes (18) and (19).

- this branch carried out, one opens the valves (18) and (19) and the faucets of the radiators.

- connection of the apparatus to the electric current (20) and opening of the circuit breaker.

Water existing in the circuit of the radiators is aspired by the mouth of suction (12) of the mini pump, it is driven back by the mouth (6) of the mini pump towards the end (5) of the heating resistance (L); while crossing the resistance, instantaneously heated water is returned in the tube (10) of the return (R) of the circuit of the heating. The circuit of the heating being a closed circuit, heated water circulates permanently.

0 the apparatus of the invention represents according to case's b: The apparatus according to case's B has the technical same components that case A (1). The application of the device according to case's B has as an object to individually heat only one radiator with water without any circuit of heating and boiler.

In the form of performing according to, single the power of the technical components of the apparatus changes in accordance with the invention according to the given calorific power by the manufacturer of the radiator.

The apparatus in accordance with the invention comprises a sixth characteristic in case b: the delivery R. 1 sends the water heated in the radiator 2 by the point (21). This apparatus comprises a seventh characteristic: the connection out of tee (22) allows the water filling of the radiator by the point (23).

Placement and setting in running of the apparatus according to case's b: branch of the tube (15) of the apparatus 1 on the point (24) radiator 2, branch of the tube (11) 1 on the point (21) of the radiator 2 water filling of the radiator by the point (23) 2.

connection of the apparatus to the electric current and opening of the circuit breaker (17) 2.

Apparatuses according to cases' C and D have the technical same components that case A (fig1) with the difference that, according to an eighth characteristic, the apparatuses C and D are provided with a pressure switch (26) 3 with the place of the mini pump. The pressure switch (26) has as a function to establish or cut the electric current of the heating resistance (1) as of the opening or the closing of an hot water faucet.

Thanks to the pressure switch the hot water producing is instantaneous and continuous. 30

According to a ninth characteristic the apparatuses C and D produce sanitary hot water uninterrupted when this one is used, thanks to the resistance (1), when these apparatuses are connected to cold water and the electric current.

The apparatus according to case's C and D has as an object to produce sanitary hot water.

In the form of performing according to and according to the power of the electrothermal hydro components, the apparatus can be useful in the producing of hot water sanitary for a room of bath and a kitchen (apparatus in the case C) or produce sanitary hot water for several rooms of bath, in which case the apparatus is installed on the main column of hot water supply.

According to the mode particular of performing, figure 3 illustrates the performing and the application of the device in cases C and D. Placement and setting in running of the apparatus according to cases' C and D: - the branch of a tube on the point (A) constitutes the cold water supply, the branch of a tube on the point (B) constitutes the hot water recovery as of the opening of a faucet connected to the hot water circuit of the apparatus C or D, - the component (25) of the apparatuses C and D is a regulator of the water temperature, - the component (17) of the apparatuses C and D is a circuit breaker 30 my of electrical safety, the point (20) constitutes taken connection of the electric current in 0 apparatuses C and D. As nonrestrictive example, each apparatus in accordance with the invention can be contained in a canister or box made safe with dimensions of about 9 X 13 X 45 centimetres ready to install and put in service rapidly.

********************

Claims:
http://translationgateway.epo.org/emtp/gw?ACTION=claims-retrieval&COUNTRY=FR&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=2890724&OPS=ops.epo.org

1) Apparatus to heat water by Hydro electrothermics without passing by a boiler and its equipments, characterized in what it comprises an insulated and protected electrical resistance (1) of linear form or in torus of revolution, of variable power connected to the metal tube (2) through which circulates the water heated by the resistance.

2) Apparatus according to claim 1 to heat the water of characterised in that traditional radiators the water heated by the resistance (1) circulates in loop in the radiators thanks to a mini pump (3) of variable power.

3) Apparatus according to claim 1 to individually heat water Io of a characterised in that traditional radiator the mini pump (3) sucking the water heated by the resistance (1) creates a flow in loop in the radiator which allows a quasi instantaneous diffusion of the water heat in the radiator.

4) Apparatus according to characterised in that claim 3 the radiator comprises a connection out of tee (22) which allows the water filling of the radiator by the point (23).

5) Apparatus according to claim 1 to produce sanitary hot water without passing by a characterised in that traditional boiler sanitary cold water flowing in the tube (2) is heated by the resistance (1), the pressure switch restoring the electric current for the resistance (1) as of the opening of an hot water faucet.

********************

Attached:
Fig-1of3.jpg
Fig-2of3.jpg
Fig-3of3.jpg
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: CompuTutor on March 16, 2011, 02:23:49 AM
Maybe some pics to study too ?

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: CompuTutor on March 16, 2011, 02:25:23 AM
(Limit 10 pics per post...)

Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: zuvrick on January 24, 2012, 02:23:17 AM
Sorry for coming into this so late.

I have read through some o fthe posts on pages 1-5 and some of the last 3.

I didn't see anyone mention these acoustic issues.

The size of the bells will have no relationship to their bell-resonant frequency. The frequency is determined by the thickness of metal, modulus of elasticity and Poisson's Ratio, which vary with differing alloys. Also any work hardening induced in the stamping, pressing or metal spinning methods to make such a shape change the modulus of elasticity.

The other very important fact is that the velocity of sound is also part of the equation. When a bell in air is struck it will have a certain pitch or frequency, but when it is immersed in water the resonant frequency will be lowered. You can test this by immersing any wind chime bar or tube, or any bell in water after it has been struck. You'll hear the pitch slide downward (glissando in music).

My trusty handbook for this info is Music, Physics and Engineering by Harry F? Olson, my copy was published in 1968 or so (been dragging it around for 43 years). I have played a lot with metal instruments, and witnessed the building of a bronze Javanese gong that takes to days of hot and cold forging to make it sound musical. These use Beta Bronze, a special intermetallic compound and not really an alloy, of tin and copper. But that's another story.

I have a sneaking hunch that any tuned resonance by Davey was done in air and has no relation to the bell resonance in water.

Another factor is possible the resonance of the cavity formed, but that is hard to measure.

I would think that the easiest way to prove or disprove resonance in this is to supply a variable frequency power signal. Take an amplifier and and use a 220V primary and 12-24V secondary transformer, connect it backwards to step up the ampliier output to 100-250 volts and then vary the frequency around 40-150 Hz while measuring the current and temperature rise.

Zuvrick from Indonesia
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: Paul-R on May 10, 2014, 05:35:39 PM

The size of the bells will have no relationship to their bell-resonant frequency.
 
This is not true.
 
The factors that you mention in your next paragraph will have a bearing, but if the diameter of the bell is doubled, all else remaining constant, do you imagine it will not change the resonant frequency?
Title: Re: Peter Davey Heater
Post by: MasterPlaster on May 11, 2014, 07:03:15 PM
Here is a study on water cavitation that is great source of info:

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a031182.pdf