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Author Topic: Peter Davey Heater  (Read 490697 times)

Sprocket

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #255 on: June 20, 2008, 05:21:36 AM »
Just another comment on your reply. Even if there were zero current through the cell it would not be OU. Why? Because you have to take into account the energy that is required to keep the 60hz signal from the AC line pulsing through the cell. You can do some really wild stuff with water and magnets and electricity. I was doing a lot of active experimentation and recording it on my old website here:

http://www.geocities.com/mj_17870

Check out the "My Ideas" pages if you want. I have come a long way since then but it was fun.


Thanks for the link - I actually stumbled onto the 'permanent magnets effecting electrolysis' page via google just yesterday! :)

I'm confused on the zero current issue - I have been doing almost exactly as you describe and have measured 6-8 amps flowing.  Put another way, do you agree that the power used in your setup was similar to that used by a kettle?

enki09

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #256 on: June 20, 2008, 05:45:05 AM »
Ok, well pure water is an insulator and acts as a dielectric. So the amount of current that you have flowing in a cell is in direct proportion to the amount of electrolyte that has been added to the water. The less electrolyte, the lower the current flow. I was trying to hold the current as low as I could and still get the heating effect since the less current that is used the less power is consumed.

Of course if you are producing H2 and O2 at the same time then you can say that the power (or at least some of it) that is being used is actually stored in the form of potential chemical energy represented by the H2 and O2 gases

Sprocket

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #257 on: June 20, 2008, 06:31:53 AM »
But one of my 'revelations' here had to do with having tried to boil pure distilled water, nothing happened - no current (or practically none) and no heating of the water took place.  Having already experimented with electrolysis, I knew that with DC no current would flow with out electrolyte, but presumed it would be different with AC (it wasn't!).  Upon adding a microscopic amount of baking soda, it was pulling 3-6 amps.  So I now understand why you'd get no current flowiing with pure water, I just don't understand how you were managing to boil it - sounds like the Davey 'magic' we are seeking here!  Also, there's no HHO of consequence being produced in my mains AC setups.

forest

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #258 on: June 20, 2008, 07:20:13 AM »
enki09,

"The Anode (d) goes directly to ground (g) in the breaker box. There is a 10 amp circuit breaker between the Anode and the ground and a 20 amp breaker in the breaker box on the switch side."

very interesting, did you tested it without circuit breakers ? also : how long or big were your wires , or was there a capacitance effect in wires , maybe a circuit breaker box contained capacitor ?

forest

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #259 on: June 20, 2008, 07:37:16 AM »
ok.I think that if there is some secret hidden here then it must be an electric circuit which cause sonic response in cell container (spherical). Eighter it is electromagnet action or Davey device is purely current tranducer which generated concentrated sound waves causing high pressure in the focal point.
First I must l test purely resistance immersion heater method because transducer way is more complicated. Depending on inner bell curvature there will be different focal point of interferencing sound waves. Good news is that only a minimal power is required for transducer.

enki09

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #260 on: June 20, 2008, 08:39:58 AM »
12-10 wire, the electrodes were stainless sheets and pretty thin.

I took it straight to ground at first but then used a breaker just to be safe.

It isn't magic. With or without current flow you still have the electromagnetic wave through the cell spinning the water. The ground electrode is of a constant charge and the "hot" electrode is cycling through the range of maximum to minimum charge 60 times per second. You see? Even with no current the wave is present in the water and could spin the molecules.

The cell in that case is acting like a water capacitor.

devrimogun

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #261 on: June 20, 2008, 03:07:10 PM »
I could boil a quart of water in 60 seconds with virtually zero current through the jar.
----------------------------------------
Even if there were zero current through the cell it would not be OU. Why? Because
you have to take into account the energy that is required to keep the 60hz signal from
 the AC line pulsing through the cell.
--------------------------------------
With or without current flow you still have the electromagnetic wave through the cell spinning the water. The ground electrode is of a constant charge and the "hot" electrode is cycling through the range of maximum to minimum charge 60 times per second. You see? Even with no current the wave is present in the water and could spin the molecules.

@Enki09 very useful information. So where is the electrical energy consumed then?

Electrmagnetic wave is spinning the water ok. Good point. But in Davey's device  there must be also
acoustic energy.

As these electrode heaters are 99.9% efficient, adding the acoustic energy
into the equation may be the jump factor into the OU territory.

Until now I believe our experimenters have realised the electromagnetic energy transfer
into the water. Now it is upto adding the acoustic part of it.

I came accross the following little bit of info:
    Heat: this is the energy of vibrating particles in a substance.
   Sound: this is the energy of vibrating particles.

Interesting?

devrimogun

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #262 on: June 20, 2008, 03:07:37 PM »

I could boil a quart of water in 60 seconds with virtually zero current through the jar.
----------------------------------------
Even if there were zero current through the cell it would not be OU. Why? Because
you have to take into account the energy that is required to keep the 60hz signal from
 the AC line pulsing through the cell.
--------------------------------------
With or without current flow you still have the electromagnetic wave through the cell spinning the water. The ground electrode is of a constant charge and the "hot" electrode is cycling through the range of maximum to minimum charge 60 times per second. You see? Even with no current the wave is present in the water and could spin the molecules.


@Enki09 very useful information. So where is the electrical energy consumed then?

Electrmagnetic wave is spinning the water ok. Good point. But in Davey's device  there must be also
acoustic energy.

As these electrode heaters are 99.9% efficient, adding the acoustic energy
into the equation may be the jump factor into the OU territory.

Until now I believe our experimenters have realised the electromagnetic energy transfer
into the water. Now it is upto adding the acoustic part of it.

I came accross the following little bit of info:
    Heat: this is the energy of vibrating particles in a substance.
   Sound: this is the energy of vibrating particles.

Interesting?

forest

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #263 on: June 20, 2008, 03:22:36 PM »
To all who are interested : read patent no 3230506 E.J. Hellund "Pressure pulsation generator"

There is described a sonic tranducer and an electric circuit drawing it by capacitor discharge over the spark gap.The result are concentrated acoustic waves generating high pressure in focal point.Look at all embodiments pictures.Isn't that similar to Davey or even Thrapp devices ?

That's the patent I would like to test later.

nul-points

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #264 on: June 20, 2008, 03:24:05 PM »
i was looking into the capacitive possibilities of water recently, with regard to another project

i read, on a Physics Forum, a question about the dielectric nature of water - the answer was along the lines of:
  "water is a a good dielectric - however, it also exhibits highly mobile ion activity making it conduct easily; when it changes state to ice, then the ion mobility decreases & the dielectric nature comes back to the fore"

am i right in thinking that 'distilled' water is also referred to as 'de-ionised' water?

if so, then this would explain a difference in behavior between 'tap' water & 'distilled', where the water is effectively becoming part of a capacitor formed between the live & neutral electrodes

adding some electrolyte into the de-ionised water would turn the arrangement from a non-polarised capacitance to a polarised one (ie. electrolytic capacitor)

these recent discoveries (and previous accounts) are moving the action of the Davey Heater in an interesting new direction

Harold Aspden had some enlightening things to say about his belief that the effect of an electric field between capacitor plates imparted angular-momentem to the crystal-lattice type structure making up the background fabric of the universe - the Vacuum Medium, in Quantum Physics terms (aka the 'aether' in past thinking)

the angular momentum could then be dissipated as energy to a local system and appear as anomalous, additional energy - ie 'free energy'/overunity operation

Aspden believed this electric field / angular-momentum effect would be significantly strengthened by using concentric/circular capacitors (eg. Davey's patent's cyclinders; concentric bells?)

it was his writings that inspired me to start my own investigation of possible overunity operation with switched-charge circuits using spiral-rolled electrolytic capacitors - now showing results with an (energy expended) / (energy supplied) ratio of 1.2

great work all

best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

devrimogun

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #265 on: June 20, 2008, 04:26:11 PM »
Sandy is there a way to make use of that 1.2?

Sprocket

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #266 on: June 20, 2008, 09:26:41 PM »
Attempting to take this up a level, so I sampled my inner bell's sound, found the fundamental frequency was pretty close to 1000Hz (933Hz), so ground it down till I got closer.  As you can see, not an ideal bell by any means, and hitting the magic 1000 proved illusive!  But I did look for effects between 990 -> 1010Hz with no success.  There's also a little soundfile attached - the bells sounds first, then a 1000Hz tone I generated for comparison.  As you can hear, (and see in pic.) they are pretty close.

So, question, am I right in thinking that 1000Hz is a harmonic of the 50Hz mains frequency?

(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/Sprocket_06/DaveyBell_1000HZ_Sound.jpg)

forest

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #267 on: June 20, 2008, 10:04:18 PM »
The question is not if your bell resonate at 1000hz ,rather if a simple connection to AC is capable of force bell vibrations at all. I don't see it happens.

Is there a possible to build a spark gap for 220 - 400V ? How small should be  gap ? I'll try to build a circuit with 400V capacitor and spark gap as in patent mentioned by me.

Sprocket

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #268 on: June 20, 2008, 10:39:25 PM »
Well, the idea that the bell resonates at a harmonic of the mains frequency is the prevaling notion as to how the Davey heater might work, so if true, of course it matters that the bell resonates at a harmonic of the fundamental - in this case 1000Hz - as maximium power transfer will occur at a harmonic frequency...

nul-points

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #269 on: June 21, 2008, 12:15:20 AM »
Sandy is there a way to make use of that 1.2?

hi Dev

at the moment the experiment is a single pass: switch charge the output cap thro' a load & then discharge it thro same load - end of run - measure results

the next phase for me (and possibly for at least one other member) is to automate that process repetitively and confirm if it still delivers 1.2 under the new conditions - the output will then be a cap charge/discharge AC waveform, approx 2.7V pk-pk through a resistive load, for an 8V input, with a half-cycle of some tens of seconds

not a very useful output yet - still only an OU heater at this level!

however the new automation process will open the way to checking for OU & additional resonance at different operating frequencies, and possible transformer coupling etc

getting the output volts up by a factor of 3+ would mean we could go for self-sustaining attempts but that isn't practical at the moment

all the best
sandy