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Author Topic: Peter Davey Heater  (Read 490691 times)

EMdevices

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #225 on: June 17, 2008, 05:32:58 PM »
I'm no expert on the resistive properties of water and how they vary with Temperature, Salt content, other ions, turbulence, etc..,  but it also surprises me a bit that there seems to be a higher current draw once boiling set in.  Considering just a simple model of resistance that depends on the surface area (and other factors of course, like spacing of the plates, etc..)  the presence of bubbles would indicate less electrode surface exposed to the conductive water, so resistance should be higher (assuming the hot steam filled bubles are not more conductive than water) however this does not seem to be the case from Sprocket's experiment, and we can speculate quite a bit why it's not, but I suspect we can find an answer in the scientific literature as I'm sure others have done carefull research into boiling. 

Years ago I was invovled (for a short while) with microgravity research.  We would drop an experiment from a great height (a few stories) and while it was in free fall , hence microgravity, we would run the experiment which consisted of boiling water and filming it with video cameras mounted on the experiment and recording everything.   I believe later on they got this experiment to fly on the space shuttle.    So anyway, I'm sure lots of scientists have investigated boiling and I'm quite sure this same type of boiling, utilizing the conduction properties of water, has been looked at.  Perhaps somebody with a membership at ASME or other engineering organization can do a search and see what comes up.

Anyway, even if these heaters are no OU, I would still like to build a small contraption like this Davey heater so I can heat up the water in a glass or cup and make tea or other hot drink with minimum heat loss.   Microwaves are efficient, but some people have doubts about the health benefits (not me), and heating up water on a stove top is wastefull as you're leaking heat all over the place into the air.    I can also understand why the gov would not let him manufacture the device for safety reasons.  I like most people am a bit worried about sticking live wires in water.  What if a kid sticks his fingers in there?  what if the electrodes short?  House fire from bad wiring?, etc... etc..  however, with proper engineering, I'm sure a safe design can be contrived to eliminate all these concerns.   

nice work Sprocket,  I'll try to raid the kitchen as well, hopefully my wife won't notice :)

Sprocket

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #226 on: June 17, 2008, 10:45:38 PM »
@EMdevices - thanks!  btw, I'm single, so currently it's safe to plunder cutlery - you'd might do well to re-consider... :D

Speaking of which, I now also need a new Salt & Pepper set! (see pics).  This didn't work out as I hoped.  Despite having visions of emulating Mr. Davey's 'instant-boil' a glass of water antics, and it proving a bitch to build, it seems to perform worse than the first one.  Being a lot smaller, I was boiling a 400mL jar (a large cup approx.) of water in about 60 seconds - so definitely not 'instant'.  The inner bell has a large range of adjustment, but as before, it doesn't seem to effect boil-rate.

I'd like to elaborate a little on what I said about max current near/at boiling - when the first 5A fuse blew, it had been operating until it started to boil.  While this could have been a coincidence, I doubt it.  When using a 13A fuse (which doesn't blow) to boil a bowl of water, if the heater is moved around in the bowl so that no localised hot-spot builds up, everything remains 'quiet' as the water begins to heat.  However, if left in one spot in the bowl, or when all the water is boiling, and big bubbles are being produced, a loud mains-hum ('throbbing' in sync with the bubbles being produced) is heard.  Also, the lights can be seen to dim slightly at times. So though counter-intuitive, there's does seem to be a lot more current flowing at or near the boil-point.  But until I get a clamp meter, I won't know for sure...

(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/Sprocket_06/Photo-0116.jpg)

(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll190/Sprocket_06/Photo-0117.jpg)

helmut

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #227 on: June 17, 2008, 11:18:58 PM »
@Sprocket

This looks very good.

Good luck with this setup.

helmut

Sprocket

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #228 on: June 17, 2008, 11:30:43 PM »
Oh boy, I've just made a discovery of sorts - a Davey heater will not boil distilled water!  I knew that distilled water needed an electrolyte for electrolysis, but I assumed that 230V @ 13A would just shrug off these minor inconveniences. Well, having just tried it, I can assure you it doesn't - without electrolyte, nothing happens!  As for my tap-water, well, my "good" results might be down to its 'strange' content as I reported in the electrolysis thread.  btw, the reason I checked with distilled water was because the same brown gunk seemed to be forming on the SS...

So, if a Davey Heater cannot boil all water, can it really be compared with a 'normal' heater?

DOCV

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #229 on: June 18, 2008, 12:47:03 PM »
I am not sure if anyone has recognized this anomaly yet but I think there is more going on than daveys invention is telling us. If you take a look at the New Zealand Channel 3 report, Peter has two "lamp units" one brassy gold and the other is black. He starts the demonstartion with the brassy gold one. At the base of the unit there is a black spherical shaped object just as the wires join the unit. However on the black "lamp unit" this does not appear at all. The reason I see is that the base of the brassy/gold unit is too shallow to insert this sphere into it so it must remain on the outside. the black unit has a much bigger and deeper base so he can hide it inside.
The big question is what is this spherical shaped unit doing. A perfect case of misdirection. While we are all looking at the bowls and shapes and resonances, there is this little ball unit in the background that no one has noticed.

devrimogun

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #230 on: June 18, 2008, 01:55:44 PM »
ND's and Sprocket's results prove that if something works it will work in many ways/shapes.
The reason that there is no instant boiling and for high current consumption is according to
the myth the tunings.

None of the experimenters tuned the inner bell and when the inner bell in not tuned, the second
tuning (distance) does not have any importance.

All according to the myth.

Sprocket

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #231 on: June 18, 2008, 06:40:44 PM »
To tell the truth, I've lost all interest in this now, or at least till I get a clamp meter.  The realisation that the process is completely dependent on the type of water being boiled is a killer in my eyes, meaning that all replications will be subject to the vagries this will introduce.  Personally, I now have no doubt that a Davey heater will boil my tap-water much faster than a conventional heater, but as I reported in the DC electrolysis thread, my tap-water utterly destroys the SS in no time, so it has no practical applications in this part of the world.

btw, I also tried boiling distilled water with electrolyte added (bicarbonate of soda) - huge current flowed, so I pulled the plug rather than blow the fuse needlessly...

Sprocket

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #232 on: June 18, 2008, 06:49:24 PM »
ND's and Sprocket's results prove that if something works it will work in many ways/shapes.
The reason that there is no instant boiling and for high current consumption is according to
the myth the tunings.

None of the experimenters tuned the inner bell and when the inner bell in not tuned, the second
tuning (distance) does not have any importance.

All according to the myth.

Hi.  I should just mention that my last creation had a nice 'dingggg...' off of it when struck with a piece of metal, and being a piston-type interference-fit construction is very easy to 'tune' - which I attempted to do by ear.  So, striking the outer dome, there was a point that was pretty easy to find where the inner one would also reverberate at its higher frequency.  Did nothing to speed up the heating process, at least as far as I could see.   Really, really need current measuring equipment for this though...

forest

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #233 on: June 18, 2008, 08:53:07 PM »
DOCV,

I haven't omitted this small little device attached to Davey lamp-like unit. That was my first thought and the reason why I tested transformer to lower voltage to 12V. I realized that step down voltage may be the key to avoid all potential dangers related to direct usage of main power.Obviously I did something wrong with my device or that wouldn't work that way.
Now I will concentrate my efford to second choice : direct immerse heating using mains power, however I'm a little scared about using it directly. Wish me luck!
According to some my other investigations of Peter Davey patent and video I think that there are many tips hidden in them. For example one of the most important tip is the knowledge that this heater does not work when not immersed in water,surely water MUST be REQUIRED PART of heating action.

My device is to large in my opinion but I wasn't able to find smaller SS bowls for casing assembly.Of course casing will be vented!

DOCV

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #234 on: June 18, 2008, 09:12:31 PM »
I have gone back and looked atthe video. The way he immerses the heater into the water which he does rather slowly. I think this is to ensure that a small amount of water enters the cavity to ensure a rapid boiling point is created by using brute force. Once this action starts there must be a draw of cold water through the bottom and hot water and bubles drawing out through thre top, this action is stimilating the resonance effect between the natual ac Hz and the tuned bowls. Once this starts the amps drop into a normal range of 2-4 amps. I don't believe that the bowls are loosly attached because if they were and either one touched would create a dead short.
I hooked up these sounds on an analyser and there is definately a beautiful resonance across the 50Hz modualting frequencies.
That little black ball that protrudes from the wires at the base bothers me, because it is doing something but not sure what at this stage. The best results I have achieved is a COP of 1 and maybe 1.1 but would need a watt meter to confirm.
What I can tell you is that the original patent is a red herring. The concept is there but he has had 50 years to modify it.
Tuning the bells doesn't improve efficiency, there is something more that i am missing. Will need to sleep on it for a few days to figure it out.

forest

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #235 on: June 18, 2008, 09:22:05 PM »
 ;D

Thinking about Davey device I realized that it may be a tricky way to use a very little power to maintain heat action is such device. That way would not be mechanical or electrical mainly, but rather electromagnetic. It may look very strange or like a crazy idea but the only convertion from electrical to mechanical power (which is required to generate sound I suppose - sonic response of bells) is ELECTROMAGNET! But that is one problem - this device is quiet when not immersed in water. Water must change some electrical parameters of this device but I can't think about anything except resistance :-(

It tok me to the conception of mechanically forces cavitation and open a vast field of new experiments.I connected that discovery with my tests of Bedini monopole and I think I found a very valuable way to generate heat by fast mechanical vibrations.The only problem is to find how water absence stops them.

One of possible embodiment of this invention is to fix a very strong neo magnet in a quite strong SS flat stip mounted ONLY on one end. Placing a coil acting as strong electromagnet before that neo magnet at some distance and applying a fast pulses to coil would generate the same effect in my opinion like a rotating wheel with holes on outer edge if of course we properly place such holes on magnet, SS strip or coil core.

What if the inner bell is loosely mounted on a center rod in such way that it can jump and fall according to electromagnetic action between bells, caused by AC current flowing in conductors ? Wouldn't it produce changing pressure effect in space between bells ?  How we could obtain such effect ? I see it related to my experience with Bedini monopole : sometimes when the energy  is not taken up by pushing magnet the coil is tend to humm or hiss loudly and vibrate.

So my proposition is to check a specialt mounting of live wire on a inner bell which may cause it being like a CORE of elecromagnet !!!

forest

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #236 on: June 18, 2008, 09:32:05 PM »
Ha!  Wonderful day! I might found why this deice is quiet when not immersed in water.

The water surely closes the circuit which allows electromagnetic action, which after that causes sonic responce and cavitation.Pump action, direct heating by current ,cavitation - all are porobably involved in final result.

My proposition is to wind a few turns of live wire (not sure if insulated or not) around the inner bell. The only thing that bothers me is  patent which said something about using brass or copper tubing for electrodes, but theory is valuable and require some analysis and tests.

forest

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #237 on: June 18, 2008, 09:42:58 PM »
Just to note,please: if you use my ideas with success remember I want to give theml for free to all people.I deny and forbid to patent any of them related to such embodiments and ideas I described on that forum.

Sprocket

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #238 on: June 18, 2008, 09:59:03 PM »
Another realisation - using distilled water and electrolyte will allow me to control the current used, so I can measure it with the meter!!! (10A max.)

So some hard-figures:

Started with approx. 350-400mL of distilled water, room temp, with a microscopic amount of of sodium bicarbonate added, and used the 'little' Davey heater.  It took 150 seconds to boil, (rather, I stopped it after that, 'cos it was boiling nicely) starting out drawing just under 3A @ 230V AC, climbing to a max. of 4.2A leading up to boiling, before finally dropping back to a little above 3A when boiling!

Efficiency anyone???

DOCV

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Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #239 on: June 18, 2008, 10:01:09 PM »
This electromagent theory sounds plausable, maybe thats why some earlier pictures of the inner bell have scouring rings near the end of the bell. On the other hand peter is a simple musician and am not sure of his capabilities of elctromagnetism. Some test would prove this theory or not, i come back to the inventor... simplicity the universe is music!!!!