Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Google Search

Custom Search

Author Topic: Peter Davey Heater  (Read 430248 times)

Online ramset

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7591
Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #90 on: May 17, 2008, 02:34:11 PM »
storre I was just told [EE]that pure sine waves[like the mains] have no harmonics is this possible  Chet

Offline storre

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
    • F11 Music
Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #91 on: May 17, 2008, 09:25:56 PM »
storre I was just told [EE]that pure sine waves[like the mains] have no harmonics is this possible  Chet

How can we have harmonic distortion in the a/c. I found many references to it. Here are a couple:

THIS:

Institute of Electrical and Electronics Engineers (IEEE) Standard 519 which defines allowable harmonic distortion at customer service entrances

AND THIS:

Harmonic Interferance

AC power is delivered throughout the distribution system at a fundamental frequency of 60 Hz. (50 Hz in Europe.) Harmonics are defined as, "integral multiples of the fundamental frequency." For instance, the 3rd harmonic frequency is 180 Hz, the 5th is 300 Hz, etc. In the US, the standard distribution system in commercial facilities is 208/120 wye. There are three phase wires and a neutral wire. The voltage between any two phase wires is 208, and the voltage between any single phase wire and the neutral wire is 120. All 120 volt loads are connected between a phase and neutral. When the loads on all three phases are balanced (the same fundamental current is flowing in each phase) the fundamental currents in the neutral cancel and the neutral wire carries no current. When computer loads and other loads using switched mode power supplies are connected, however, the situation changes.

Switch mode power supplies draw current in spikes, which requires the AC supply to provide harmonic currents. The largest harmonic current generated by the SMPS is the 3rd. The magnitude of this harmonic current can be as large or larger than the fundamental current. Also generated, in smaller amounts, are the 5th, 7th, and all other odd harmonic currents.

Like the fundamental current, most harmonic currents cancel out on the neutral wire. However, the 3rd harmonic current, instead of canceling, is additive in the neutral. Thus if each phase wire were carrying, in addition to fundamental current, 100 amps of 3rd harmonic current, the neutral wire could be carrying 300 amps of 3rd harmonic current. In many cases, neutral-wire current can exceed phase wire currents. This extra current provides no useful power to the loads. It simply reduces the capacity of the system to power more loads, and produces waste heat in all the wiring and switchgear. When the 3rd harmonic current returns to the transformer it is reflected into the transformer primary where it circulates in the delta winding until it is dissipated as heat. The result is overheated neutral wires, switchgear, and transformers. This can lead to failure of some part of the distribution system and, in the worst case, fires. In addition, waste heat in all parts of the system increases energy losses and results in higher electrical bills. 3rd harmonic currents can increase electrical costs by as much as 8%

And many other references about it.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=off&client=safari&rls=en-us&sa=X&oi=spell&resnum=0&ct=result&cd=1&q=electricity+harmonic+fundamental&spell=1

http://www.utilitytrainingsolutions.com/courses/power-quality.html

Also I don't think we are dealing with a pure sine wave. Inductive motors create a lot of harmonic distortion.

So if you know your mains frequency and you want to vibrate an object that is shaped such that it has a natural frequency. Something like a bell shape or cylinder shape then it would make sense to make that object the correct size so it also vibrates at the same frequency as what is vibrating it. Just so it's not working against itself. The reason I think it causes the heating of the water is because the vibrations transmit off the bell much easier and stronger because it wants to vibrate at that frequency naturally because of it's size/shape.

Again if you want to push a pendulum so as to keep it constantly swinging but you can only do it by pushing it from one side and you can't adjust this rate of pushing then it would make sense to adjust the length of the pendulum so that it matches this pushing rate. The rate that it naturally swings at. Otherwise you will lose a lot of energy if you are pulsing faster or slower than this rate. So the frequency of the electricity is the pusher and the bell is the pendulum. They have to match exactly or be a *2 or /2 multiple of it or octave of it.

Offline b0rg13

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 651
Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #92 on: May 17, 2008, 11:27:52 PM »
I believe it has been done over 100 years ago by people that saw music and electronics intimately related. If you've seen the Peter Davey videos you can see he's done it also. Water does not boil that fast even with 220v. I've tried it and a cup of water using a coiled up wire across to 110v mains takes at least 30 seconds to boil. It's actually pulling 2000W to do that. We have to see electronics and music as the same field of study. They are the same in terms of resonance. I will use the guitar again as an example. Tune the first and last string so that they are EXACTLY in tune with each other. If you strike the lower E string strongly without touching the higher E string and then stop the lower E string from vibrating you will hear the higher E string vibrating even though it was never touched. If you then detune (even a little bit) one of the 2 E strings so they are not in resonance with each other, then the effect stops.

This outer (or inner?) bell has to be tuned exactly to a harmonic of the oscillation of the AC mains. Then the bell will serve as an amplifier to the oscillation of the mains frequency.

The same theory holds true with the example of a soprano singer breaking a china glass by hitting the exact frequency of the glass. Put water on your finger and slide around and around the rim until it rings and then play that frequency on a sound system at a high volume and you can shatter the glass. I also read stories about how Keeley could break a quartz rock into powder with a resonator and how Tesla could vibrate a building to destruct itself using a resonator. They both understood the same thing and then some?

I think someone here will make a working model very soon :)

this seems like a good simple summery :), i wonder how many shapes and sizes and how big you can go, and just how much power they will draw., i would love to know how to tune a small pipe to say 50(what ever it is), and then tune another one to that first one, from then i should be able to heat water........( i wonder if you can play a sound down a tube from an mp3 player with the right freq have it work that way)..

Offline AbbaRue

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 587
Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #93 on: May 18, 2008, 06:54:59 AM »
The room humidifier I have seen uses ultrasonic frequencies to vaporize water.
The water never boils, it stays cold.  The ultrasonic frequency just vibrates the water
so fast that it turns into a mist. 

As for this device, he makes tea with it so this is something totally different.
I have a suggestion, maybe someone can capture the video and try feeding it
through some software that isolates different frequencies.
Maybe we can get the frequency right off the video. IF google video doesn't filter out the frequency. 

Otherwise if someone could get to visit this fellow and bring a recorder with them,
maybe they could record the background frequency too.

Offline edelind

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #94 on: May 18, 2008, 09:19:32 AM »
I have a suggestion, maybe someone can capture the video and try feeding it
through some software that isolates different frequencies.
Maybe we can get the frequency right off the video. IF google video doesn't filter out the frequency. 

Otherwise if someone could get to visit this fellow and bring a recorder with them,
maybe they could record the background frequency too.


You're missing the point. The frequency here is the 50 Hz of the main power line. Davey indeed uses the resonance, but by tunning the inside bell to the frequency he (we) already have for free. Of course, for a US device you need to make a 60 Hz resonating inner bell.

As far the outer bell, I am not sure if it must be tunned too, but the most important thing is to have the same shape and to find (by successive tests) the correct distance between the two bells, so the vibrations emitted by the inner one to reflect into the outer one and return back to it, in phase (i.e. making a stationary wave). This way an avalanche of resonance effect will occur and the energy transfered to water will rise suddenly and huge, with the same small input. This is the beauty of resonance!

Offline NewAge

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 28
Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #95 on: May 18, 2008, 09:53:58 AM »
OK, but why the resonating bell should be smaller. Can't they be of the same size?

Offline edelind

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #96 on: May 18, 2008, 10:00:28 AM »
OK, but why the resonating bell should be smaller. Can't they be of the same size?

What do you mean? Same diameter?? If so, how do you want to place them? I think the inner bell should be smaller just because he must go inside the outer one... ;)

Offline NerzhDishual

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 588
    • FreeNRG.info
Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #97 on: May 19, 2008, 02:03:37 AM »


Hi sharp minded OverUnity dot com guys,

Blowing my own horn:
Updated and roughly/vaguely translated into English:
http://freenrg.info/Sonettes_Davey/calcul_sonette.html
Should, of course, any of you being interested in it....

Best



Offline storre

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
    • F11 Music
Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #98 on: May 19, 2008, 03:12:35 PM »
You're missing the point. The frequency here is the 50 Hz of the main power line. Davey indeed uses the resonance, but by tunning the inside bell to the frequency he (we) already have for free. Of course, for a US device you need to make a 60 Hz resonating inner bell.

As far the outer bell, I am not sure if it must be tunned too, but the most important thing is to have the same shape and to find (by successive tests) the correct distance between the two bells, so the vibrations emitted by the inner one to reflect into the outer one and return back to it, in phase (i.e. making a stationary wave). This way an avalanche of resonance effect will occur and the energy transfered to water will rise suddenly and huge, with the same small input. This is the beauty of resonance!

Exactly and don't forget it doesn't need to be the same frequency as the mains. It can be x2 or in the case of 50Hz mains, 100Hz, 200Hz, 400Hz, 800Hz, etc.

Online ramset

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7591
Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #99 on: May 19, 2008, 06:05:28 PM »
Storre   how big {physical size   full wave} would a 1920 HTZ  bell be?  do you think it would be close to Thrapps ball {two bells together] ? Chet

Offline storre

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
    • F11 Music
Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #100 on: May 19, 2008, 10:17:43 PM »
Storre   how big {physical size   full wave} would a 1920 HTZ  bell be?  do you think it would be close to Thrapps ball {two bells together] ? Chet

My guess is it's a little bit bigger than the bells that are shown in many of the Peter Davey pictures on this thread. I haven't started to make one yet but if I did I would start by making one about 25% bigger than what I estimate to be in the pictures and then grind down from their until I get one of the multiples of 60Hz. Then building more bells could be done to get closer to the size so not much grinding is necessary.

I don't think it would be close to the thrapp spheres. He might be creating his own pulses and arrived at that size to heat a larger amount of water and to make it easier to build.

Offline edelind

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 37
Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #101 on: May 20, 2008, 03:07:23 PM »
@storre
Can you help me with a musician's opinion? Here's what I did: I got a bicycle bell and recorded its sound and analyzed with Audacity. I got 3 peak frequencies.
My idea was to apply one or more of those frequencies back to the bell and see how it behaves (I expected to resonate). Later I realized that it's better to play back its own sound. So I did it using some big speakers at a very high sound volume. But, surprisingly for me, it just didn't do anything at all. I tried with the individual peek frequencies too and also with a close range of vibrations, but still nothing on the bell.
The plan was to get it first to resonate to something at all and later bring it to the desired frequency (50Hz octave).
So, what do you think: maybe it's the speakers that does not generate a proper vibration? Maybe the sound from a true musical instrument is better to make a bell vibrate? Please share your opinion on this.

Thank you.

Offline storre

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
    • F11 Music
Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #102 on: May 20, 2008, 03:34:48 PM »
@storre
Can you help me with a musician's opinion? Here's what I did: I got a bicycle bell and recorded its sound and analyzed with Audacity. I got 3 peak frequencies.
My idea was to apply one or more of those frequencies back to the bell and see how it behaves (I expected to resonate). Later I realized that it's better to play back its own sound. So I did it using some big speakers at a very high sound volume. But, surprisingly for me, it just didn't do anything at all. I tried with the individual peek frequencies too and also with a close range of vibrations, but still nothing on the bell.
The plan was to get it first to resonate to something at all and later bring it to the desired frequency (50Hz octave).
So, what do you think: maybe it's the speakers that does not generate a proper vibration? Maybe the sound from a true musical instrument is better to make a bell vibrate? Please share your opinion on this.

Thank you.

Cylinders, bells  and really all ringing things make their own harmonics but I've never tried to analyze them in a computer. It's what most people would hear as a timbre in the sound. I've always done it by ear by hearing what would be the root of the harmonic series. Maybe if you record it and post it up here I can listen and tell you what the frequency is. That (I think) is the frequency you want to be at an octave harmonic of your mains frequency. The other harmonics will be in the mains also but I think it's the main vibration we want because it will be the strongest. I could of course be completely wrong since I haven't started to experiment with this yet. :)

Online ramset

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7591
Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #103 on: May 20, 2008, 03:34:58 PM »
Storre I was talking the actual total height top to bottom of the wave no harmonics full wave resonance how TALL would that sine wave be in the air[1920 htz]Thanks Chet

Offline storre

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 151
    • F11 Music
Re: Peter Davey Heater
« Reply #104 on: May 20, 2008, 03:49:34 PM »
Storre I was talking the actual total height top to bottom of the wave no harmonics full wave resonance how TALL would that sine wave be in the air[1920 htz]Thanks Chet

I really have no idea but I think tallness of the wave would refer to the amplitude, not the frequency. You might be looking for the width of the wave but personally I'm not going to try and calculate it when I make one because I'm pretty sure Peter didn't do that and trial and error is a lot faster than calculations. If you design the inner rod that is connected to the inner bell then you can put a nut on the top of this inner rod and slightly screw towards the bell or away from it to vary the distance between tests. Even a 1/4 turn on the nut would be a very fine adjustment I think. Just put some glasses of water and test how long it takes the water to boil or get to a certain temperature and then screw in our out 1/4 turn and test another glass.