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New Battery systems => Fuel Cells => Topic started by: gezgin on February 05, 2008, 10:01:31 AM

Title: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: gezgin on February 05, 2008, 10:01:31 AM
I have lead acid battery 12V 60A and charging 3 days with 10amp electronic charger but heating and still 10.5 volt .its dead?
is ther any way desulfating battery? pulsing device? bedini motor? thanks.
(its water level ok)
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 05, 2008, 06:31:47 PM
@gezgin,

Yes there are.

Attached is a circuit diagram of a lead acid battery charger that will fix your battery.

It will NOT fix the battery if the plates inside the battery is shorted out!

If you can't solder yoursef then ask a friend that can to help you build the circuit.

Groundloop.


Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Gearhead on February 05, 2008, 11:37:17 PM
The battery should charge up to 14 volts.  A reading of 10.7 volts indicates that one cell is shorted.  A good way to diagnose this further is to look at the water level in the cells.  The shorted cell will bubble more vigorously and lose water faster than the others when it is on the charger.  As far as I know there is no way to fix a shorted cell other than a rebuild and I suppose rebuilding batteries is out of date.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: gezgin on February 06, 2008, 10:25:18 AM
Groundloop, how will wound 3 coil ? toroid or circular? i will buy parts and try your circuit  next week( maybe with  power mosfet)

Gearhead water level ok (added a little)  battery made in 2004, and 2-3 year waited without charging .
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: pese on February 06, 2008, 12:23:53 PM
2 cells are shortet !
take an "normal" loader.

the "dead = shortet cells will not "bubble"

(Attention with fire or cigaretts) hyrogen gas . I have see on exploding from Spark on the loadin cable !!)

If you have "tabs" betwill ce cells (all 2 volts" you can find it als. also try to "burn" fre the short)

Pese
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 06, 2008, 05:22:25 PM
@gezgin,

Use a Cola plastic bottle and wind ALL THREE coils circular around the bottle at the same time.
When the coils are done then secure with tape and cut away exsess plastic.
Do NOT use a MOSFET!  Use a bipolar NPN power transistor. Like: 2n3055, BUX80, MJ types etc.

Best input voltage is 9 Volt.

L3 is used because it is best to have a 100% insulation between the input and the output. People
does many things like connecting wrong leads etc. Also the input diode is not needed but wil save
your circuit the day you connect the polarity wrong.

I rekomend that you build the circuit as shown for best and safest result.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: bourne on February 10, 2008, 05:10:37 PM
Check out my new YouTube video

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=abJuStUv4K8 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=abJuStUv4K8)

It shows what happens when you condition a "DEAD" car battery with a tiny Bedini coil.

The battery is a 12volt 60Ah Varta Blue.

Most points are explained in the video, (I think)

I hope you enjoy it

Bourne
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 10, 2008, 06:31:40 PM
@bourne,

Thank you for that cool video on YouTube. Yes a Bedini motor will remove the Sulfate from the battery plates.
But so will a solid state "high voltage pulse" charger do, just faster and better. The battery will recover
faster with a solid state charger because the solid state has a much higher frequency than a motor charger.
I have recovered several of my "dead" batteries with my solid state charger. The only thing the charger can't fix
is shorted battery cells.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: bourne on February 10, 2008, 09:43:14 PM
@Groundloop

I am glad you liked the video. :)

Your circuit is very similar to the Bedini SG circuit.

Does the 220nF Cap denote the frequency of the switching? Is it Tuned to the size of your coils?

When you reconditioned your dead batteries did the voltage fly all over the place like I show in my video? (Changing Impedance/de-sulfate)

One more thing; Why no core material?

Regards

Bourne

Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 11, 2008, 12:39:47 AM
@bourne,

No, the 220nF will give some LC effect on the oscillator but the coil size dominate.
The capacitor will make the circuit self start at low voltages because the resistor
is connected to the plus rail and will charge up the cap. End result is that the circuit
will run at a voltage as low as 1 Volt.

No, it depends on the DVM you are using. The normal behavior of a Sulfated battery is that it has a high internal resistance.. So at first the voltage will go very high and then when the plates is getting cleaner the voltage will drop. At one point the internal resistance will be so low (due to cleaner plates) that the voltage will begin climbing again. When the battery has crossed the 12 Volt threshold then you can charge the battery with more current.

An air core coil is easy to make and has no expensive Ferrite or other core material.
My circuit is designed so that everybody can make it.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: bourne on February 13, 2008, 12:31:56 AM
@ Groundloop

I Like it!  :)

I will defiantly give this a try when I get a chance. 

Seems very simple.

@ GezGin

Have you tried it yet? Hows your sickly battery doing? :)
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: gezgin on February 15, 2008, 09:58:33 AM
Hi Groundloop , i have build your circuit (with two coil) short time because Bux80,bd139  very hot .(i measured frequency ~100Hz).
 and building new design with 4093 osc ~1Khz
but with this circuit needs heat sink output power diods (DSI20-12A) .battery shows 11.1 volts ,with small increasing.

Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 16, 2008, 12:09:23 PM
@gezgin,

You must have a good heat sink on the power transistor. Please remove the BD139, it is NOT needed
for this circuit and will just make the amplification WAY to high. Can you provide a data sheet (pdf) for
the output diodes you are using?

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 16, 2008, 12:11:28 PM
@gezgin,

You must have a good heat sink on the power transistor. Please remove the BD139, it is NOT needed
for this circuit and will just make the amplification WAY to high. Can you provide a data sheet (pdf) for
the output diodes you are using? Also, where is the third coil L3? This coil is there so that you will NOT
couple the input direct to the output through the diode bridge. If you build the circuit as I described in my
drawing then it will work OK. The input voltage must be around 9 Volt, not 15 as you use. If the oscillator
does not run then invert the wires on the trigger side.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: gezgin on February 16, 2008, 12:41:41 PM
Sorry diod is DSEI120-12A
http://pdf1.alldatasheet.com/datasheet-pdf/view/212503/IXYS/DSEI20-12A.html
other : FEP16GT
http://www.fairchildsemi.com/pf/FE/FEP16GT.html
I used heat sink but i didnt find 500 Ohm 3.5Watt resistor(adjustable)
I found 470 Ohm/5Watt power resistor.
Groundloop, what is the time for desulphating with your circuit?
in  Japanes site talking about 4-6 week ,10KHz
Unfortunately my battery voltage drop every day 9-8-7.. maybe new one, good quality need
here scope photo (with 4093 osc)
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: gezgin on February 18, 2008, 05:13:31 PM
@Groundloop,
Finally i added L3 coil and testing your circuit .I used 220 ohm/5 watt resistor instead of R2.
Here is outpu coil waveform :

thanks.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 18, 2008, 11:21:44 PM
@gezgin,

I do not know what voltage scale you use on your scope but the pulses looks OK to me.
So how is your battery doing?

[EDIT]
Sorry, did not see the 10 Volts/Div text right away. So the output spikes is bigger than 12 Volt?
What input are you running at?

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: gezgin on February 19, 2008, 06:50:06 PM
battery still low 11 volt..
output spikes is bigger 12 volt,  maybe 30 volt because scope probe is x10 position.(you can see with this photo )
your circuit is interesting,  i can see multifrequency pulses 10 ms, 60 usn..
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 19, 2008, 10:26:13 PM
@gezgin,

Hang in there. If the battery has gained to 11 Volt and the battery does not heat up, then
just push on. Keep the input voltage to the charger below 11 Volt so that just the high
voltage pulses is "hitting" the battery. When the battery has passed a rest voltage of 12 volt
then you can turn up the input voltage a bit. Just keep on charging. It takes time for the
battery to recover. Maybe later you can mount the charger into a nice plastic box? :-)

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: hartiberlin on February 19, 2008, 11:16:52 PM
You can now also put the power supply voltage to about 14 Volts.
But then monitor the battery voltage and don?t let it runover night
or when you are not there.
When the battery begins to gas out, please be careful and
shut it down.
Don?t unplug the plugs directly at the battery as this could
cause a spark and the HHO gas might explode inside the battery.
Shut down the external power supply instead.

Let us know, what comes out of it.
Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 23, 2008, 05:29:53 PM
@gezgin,

I agree with Stefan. If a lead acid battery is making Hydrogen then there is always a danger present of fire and gas exploding inside the battery. All chargers can make a battery produce Hydrogen gas.

Anyway, how is your battery doing?

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Palic on February 24, 2008, 01:23:27 AM
Hello to all
Sorry this is a little out of subject
I was wondering if you could help me.
I am trying to replicate some of these alternative technologies, and I am missing one key element.
It's the wire..........
The wire is Teflon insulated, silver coated copper wire....it's military kind of wire.
I am from Serbia, and I was wondering Stefan or anyone else have you already found a supplier for
that kind of wire, or can you find some source in Germany or some other
European country?
It would be shame to order all the way from USA, if I can find it more closer to
my home. I don't know one word of German or any other language than
English,Hungarian and Serbian.......and these doesn't help me very much :(

Thank you all in advance

Best from Palic
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 24, 2008, 10:01:15 AM
@Palic,

Use Google.com and type "Teflon insulated, silver coated copper wire" into the search box.

First link I got was: http://www.vesely.info/cables.htm

Regards,
Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: gezgin on February 24, 2008, 10:23:27 AM
Yes, you are right, chargers create smell, and i'm bored dead&bad battery..  still show low voltage..
Groundloop, i found your files in yahoo ssg group ..kuntel circuit, did you build&test it?
There is a bedini charger&desulfator at http://www.r-charge.com/RD.html,Radiant Battery Rejuvenator (some kind pulse,rf spikes charger?
interesting.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 24, 2008, 11:21:59 AM
@gezgin,

If you battery still is low voltage then your battery has a short between one or several plates.
If MY charger can't charge your battery then the Bedini charger will not charge your battery.
(Simple as that. Just recycle your battery to the nearest recycle station in your town.)

Yes, I did build and test the circuit. I found it to be a good battery charger but no free energy.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Palic on February 24, 2008, 09:32:35 PM
Thank you Groundloop  :)
Palic
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Palic on April 18, 2008, 02:28:56 AM
@Groundloop
Can you please tell me how should I wind all three coils at once? ???
Should they be wound by hand, randomly...just taking care that
all three wires are wound at once?
Or they must be wound in some special way?
I have ultrafast diodes BYV79E-200, they are 12A, less than 30nS,but
only 200V -is this enough, or should I order the 500V diodes.
Oh yes, is the answer is that I should order the 500V diodes, I have
another question..
Can I connect serialy 2 diodes of 200V ,and get 400V diodes without loosing
the less than 30nS parameter?

I have 4 batteries of 12V 180Ah each, they are in very bad shape
Before may 1 I must try something to do with them to get back the
capacity, or spend about 800EUR for the new ones. :'(
Please help

Thank you Palic
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on April 18, 2008, 05:50:34 AM
@Palic,

Take a empty 1/2 litre Cola plastic bottle. Wind all three coils at the same time around the bottle.
Secure with tape when done. Then cut away excess plastic. It will take you maximum 10 minutes.

BYV79E-200 is OK. No need to connect diodes in series. 200 V is OK.

Just do NOT run the circuit without a battery connected on the output.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Palic on April 19, 2008, 11:05:32 PM
Thank you Grounloop for your quick reply.

Today I managed to get the wire,and they are:
1,1 mm - 1,1 kg witch I mesured 145meters,and 2,7kg of 1,05mm wire witch will
be the other two wires when split in two parts.
As I calculated I will need about 75meters of wire for just one wire of the
trifilar winding when using diameter of 100mm.

I will present the calculation:
ID 100mm, OD 120mm so the middle is 110mm
110mm * PI =0.346 meters for one circle of winding
as I need 600 circles it will be 207meters of wire
or for trifilar winding it will be 3 wires of  69meters,
and the windings will not be perfect so I guess it will
be something like 3 wires of 75 to 80 meters.
If I am wrong please correct me.  :-[

Thank you
  Palic
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on April 20, 2008, 01:14:59 AM
@Palic,

Yes you got it right. It is NOT that critical and the margin for error is big.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: UncleFester on April 21, 2008, 07:06:05 AM
@GroundLoop

I use all 12V and 24V banks that I need to desulfate (550 to 2500 Amp hour). Can I modify this for 12VDC input from my solar panels or other deep cycle battery to desulfate my 2500 Amp hour 24V bank? Also would this kill my 4000watt sinewave inverter by running it on the working bank?

Thanks,

Tad
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on April 21, 2008, 11:39:34 PM
@UncleFester,

You do not need a lot of amps and voltage to de-sulphate a battery. But you need that battery to be off
you battery bank and connected directly to a pulse charger. You should NOT have any inverter connected
to a battery that is pulse charged.

Besides that, yes, this little charger will do the job even on big batteries. It will take some time though.
I have tested my pulse charger with a input of 9 Volt @ 0,6 Amp. on a 60 A/h battery and it worked good.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Palic on April 22, 2008, 02:46:52 AM
I have few Pb batteries that had some of its cells completly dry
I want to bring them back to life
What would be best procedure to do so?
I must try something
Thank you
    Palic
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on April 22, 2008, 04:54:13 AM
@Palic,

1. Fill the dry out cells with destilled water.
2. Build pulse charger.
3. Charge battery.

If battery cells is short circuit then recycle battery at nearest station, else enjoy a "new" battery.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Palic on April 22, 2008, 08:32:59 AM
Groundloop, I wanted to ask you if I could
post some pictures of  "Groundloop desulfator charger" on Oupower as a project?

[/quote]
@Palic,

1. Fill the dry out cells with destilled water.
2. Build pulse charger.
3. Charge battery.

If battery cells is short circuit then recycle battery at nearest station, else enjoy a "new" battery.

Groundloop.

are you telling me that the acid is still in the cell, or on the cell, even if it's totaly dry
and that's why I should not rince the cell with destilated water and change the entire electrolite? ???

Thank you
   Palic
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on April 22, 2008, 10:17:20 AM
Groundloop, I wanted to ask you if I could
post some pictures of  "Groundloop desulfator charger" on Oupower as a project?

@Palic,

1. Fill the dry out cells with distilled water.
2. Build pulse charger.
3. Charge battery.

If battery cells is short circuit then recycle battery at nearest station, else enjoy a "new" battery.

Groundloop.

are you telling me that the acid is still in the cell, or on the cell, even if it's totally dry
and that's why I should not rinse the cell with destilated water and change the entire electrolite? ???

Thank you
   Palic

[/quote]

@Palic,

I have already posted a circuit diagram of my charger in this thread. See no need to do that again.
Attached is a image of my unit. As you can see I use two transistors in parallel so that I do not need
a very big heat sink.

Now to your dry out battery cells. In most cases the battery is still good to go if the cells is NOT short circuit.
There is no need to rinse the cell with water first. Just add distilled water. The acid is STILL there but bound as lead sulphate (and lead oxide) on the plates. When you charge the battery the acid will "reappear" in the water again.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Palic on April 22, 2008, 11:20:35 AM
Thank you very much for that information Grounloop

[
There is no need to rinse the cell with water first. Just add distilled water. The acid is STILL there but bound as lead sulphate (and lead oxide) on the plates. When you charge the battery the acid will "reappear" in the water again.

Groundloop.

Yesterday the windings were finished, today it's going to be electronics
I have one old heat board with already two 2n3055 transistors on it,
so this info came in just the right time.
Just to be sure, I connect the basese,collectors & emiters all
with each other pair, without resistor on emiters or bases ?
I will try to put the diodes on the
same heatboard, if I can't I will use another one.


Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on April 22, 2008, 12:58:28 PM
@Palic,

Yes that is correct. Collector to collector, Emitter to emitter and Base to base.

If you want to use the same heat sink for both the transistors and diodes AND
your diodes is the TO-220 devices, then REMEMBER to use insulation between
the components!  Use rubber silicone and plastic "screw bricks".

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Palic on April 23, 2008, 09:21:20 AM
Its working  ;D
I have batteries 180Ah that have 3 cells, 6V.
Do you think I shold desulfate one by one battery, or I could conect two of them in series?
Thank you  Groundloop
 Palic
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on April 23, 2008, 03:44:56 PM
@Palic,

Just charge ONE by one. Also remember that the battery will improve
over several discharge / charge cycles.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Palic on April 23, 2008, 10:58:21 PM
Grounloop, my first 6V battery is on the desulfator,

I have noticed that my laboratory power supply (0...32V,0...3A) gets a little bit crazy
when supling  the desulfator, voltage goes up to 80V or even over 100V , and current
is out of range, even when I setup max 2A. Now this are mesurements on my
power supply digital voltmeter and ampmeter, when using my hand Metex DMM
this is not the case . Maybe becouse the hand DMM uses 20 mesurements
and then displays the average data?
What can be done to solve this enigma? ???
What are you using as a power supply?

Thank you for your all your data and efforts to help me.
I appreciate that very much
  Palic
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on April 23, 2008, 11:39:04 PM
@Palic,

I use a 0-30V 0-5A lab supply and haven't noticed any strange effects. I guess your lab supply
has a LCD panel? Mine uses LED panel. I guess the pulses from the charger is somewhat
disturbing your LCD panel. One way to avoid that is by using a big (10.000 uF) electrolytic capacitor in parallel with the output of your lab supply.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Palic on April 25, 2008, 12:00:48 AM
@Groundloop
Yup, you were right  :), again
33000 uF/63V electrolitic condensator made all the diference
Now I can see that I am using 5.6V and 2.0A
I have noticed no exraordinary voltage rise on battery, just normal
charging. Today I hooked up a second battery after the first one
got 6,10V in the end. Do you think that 24 hours on desulfator for 180Ah battery
is enough?
@Palic,

Just charge ONE by one. Also remember that the battery will improve
over several discharge / charge cycles.

Groundloop.
do you mean discharge / charge cycles on desulfator or on regular charger...after desulfator?

Thank you
  Palic
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on April 25, 2008, 12:55:25 AM
@Palic,

Yes, 24 hours in your case is OK. When I say discharge the battery then I mean just use the battery in your normal setup. After some usage (both charge and discharge) then put the battery back on the pulse charger again for another period. This way the battery will stay as "new" for a long time. The reason is that the pulse charging has "kicked off" some of the lead sulphate covering the lead oxide. The plates gets "cleaner" and can accept charge more easy.
(This is a simplification of what is happening but good enough explanation for most of us.)

When you use the battery then do not forget to check the water level in the cells. If water level drops then add destilled water. Water and acid is the "main" motor that keeps your battery happy. The pulse charger can only give your battery a improvement if the battery is in good working order.

I glad that the capacitor solved your power supply readout problem.  :D

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Hhx on May 04, 2008, 07:58:47 PM
Hi all

This is my first post for this great forum. A while ago that I follow it and it is an invaluable source ::)

@Groundloop
I want to make this circuit (Groundlood circuit), but i have 2 questions:

1) Is it possible to use a toroid core to reduce the nº of turns (As gezgin he suggested  ) ? which the approximate equivalence would be? (I don't have enough wire) :-\

2) Other option:
(http://www.cobaltus.com/fh/12v_lead_acid_battery_desulfator.jpg)

Which their advice is?

@Palic
Feedback?

Sorry, my english is very poor.
Regards, Hhx

Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: AbbaRue on May 04, 2008, 09:04:36 PM
Do you know if this circuit will work for lead acid gel cells too?
Or is this what most of you are using? 

Also looking at the circuit, it looks like it is just a pulse charging device.
So couldn't we just use a 555 timer set at the right freq. to get the same results?
Any large inductor could function as a source of voltage spikes.

555 timers are a lot cheaper then 600 ft of wire.

Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on May 05, 2008, 01:04:38 AM
@Hhx,

I have not tried to use a toroid core on my pulse charger.
I wanted to make the charger as simple as possible while
at the same time powerfull enough to charge bigger batteries.
I have found that by using an air core I get much better
"high voltage spikes" for desulphating purposes. My charger
works as described in my drawing. If you want to try out Ferrite
or soft Iron cores, please do so but I can not give you any coil
data because I have not tried that on this circuit. If you use
a straight Ferrite rod 100 mm long and 10 mm thick, then my best
guess will be that you will need approx. 190 turns of 0,8 mm magnet
wire trifilar wound for all three coils.

I have not seen your circuit before.
Where do you connect the charge battery?


@AbbaRue

I know that my charger (the circuit is on page one in this thread) will
charge lead acid gel cells without problems.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Hhx on May 05, 2008, 06:39:36 PM
Hi all 

@AbbaRue 
Indeed the simplicity in the coil in front of the 555 is interesting. But I believe that the groundloop circuit is better, protected against reversal and isolated out. It would be interesting to be able to contrast them. 
 
@Groundloop 
Thank you for your advice. The circuit feeds of the own battery, we understand that it stores something of load. If it is completely discharged or it is used during more time it is necessary to connect him an external charger (about 2 Amps) to maintain the circuit. 
I will see if I start it, although I am much slower, you are a crack.   
Nevertheless I worry about the confirmation of the circuit, and I would like to compare the results with the two types of coils. 
 
This is the complete source: 
http://glowbugs.net/desulphator.pdf 
 
Another interesting link: 
http://www.dallas.net/~jvpoll/Battery/aaDesulfatorSurvey.html 
 
Sorry, my english is very poor. 
Regards, Hhx
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on May 05, 2008, 09:29:47 PM
@Hhx,

Your English is good enough for me. :-)

Now I understand the circuit you posted. It is an de-sulphate circuit. It draws the power needed
to operate the circuit from the connected battery.

The main difference between your posted circuit and my circuit is that my circuit also charge the connected battery. The circuit will charge the battery regardless of the battery status. If the battery is not short circuit between the plates then my charger will work.

Now, if you connect a heavy (low voltage) sulphated battery then the battery voltage will behave as shown in the attached drawing. Personally I think that a combined de-sulphate and charger is a better choice because you get a fully renewed battery when done.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: UncleFester on May 05, 2008, 10:01:03 PM
@Groundloop

Thanks very much for your work on this. I now have the parts, although I am using a Bu208A for the main transistor, it has very similar characteristics to the BUX80, but 700V @ 8Ampere ultrafast switching. I also did not have enough money to buy enough 18 gauge wire (1mm) so I will need to use 23gauge for the other windings.

I should have this built this week.

Thanks again,

Tad
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on May 05, 2008, 10:30:56 PM
@UncleFester,

The BU208A is a excellent transistor for this charger. It can take the high voltage "spikes" without any harm to
the transistor. As I said in a earlier post, you can use a Ferrite rod (great source is in old defect PC power supplies)
as a core and then save a lot of magnet wire. With a Ferrite rod you can also use thinner wire. That said, the air core has proved itself as a simple and easy way to build this charger. The air core coil also has "better" properties when charging, than a Ferrite or Iron core. Please use the 18 gauge (1mm) for the main coil going to the transistor collector and use the 23 gauge (0,6mm) for the trigger coil. If you have enough 23 gauge then just use two in parallel for the output coil.
If you want to save money then you can omit the variable resistor and just use one fixed value (approx. 470 ohm 5W) resistor going from plus to the trigger coil. If you use a lab supply at the input then you can adjust the input voltage to suit your output needs.

I would also like to repeat some safety tips. Always connect the charge battery before switching on input power. Always switch off input power before disconnecting the charge battery. Always charge in a good ventilated area. Never charge a battery without supervision. Never overcharge a battery. Always check that the battery has the correct water level. Refill with distilled water if low water level. If the battery is defect (short circuit) and all you get is a warm battery with no voltage climb then stop the charger and recycle the battery to the nearest recycle station. This charger can not repair a shorted battery cell.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: UncleFester on May 07, 2008, 10:33:16 PM
@Groundloop

Thanks for the input. Last question:

Can I use a normal wire spool of 30mm Inside diameter or is this too small? (I guess it's similar to the Bedini coil forms)

Thanks,

Tad
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on May 07, 2008, 10:49:07 PM
@UncleFester,

No.

You will need a spol with approx. 100 mm diameter.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on May 16, 2008, 07:21:43 AM
@UncleFester,

So, did you get it to work? Is the circuit restoring old batteries?

Regards,
Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: UncleFester on May 16, 2008, 05:25:19 PM
I have more wire coming this next week and the circuit portion is already soldered onto a circuit board. So almost done = )

Thanks,

Tad
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: resonanceman on December 30, 2008, 09:26:21 PM
@bourne,

Thank you for that cool video on YouTube. Yes a Bedini motor will remove the Sulfate from the battery plates.
But so will a solid state "high voltage pulse" charger do, just faster and better. The battery will recover
faster with a solid state charger because the solid state has a much higher frequency than a motor charger.
I have recovered several of my "dead" batteries with my solid state charger. The only thing the charger can't fix
is shorted battery cells.

Groundloop.

A  simple   pulsed DC charger  will  work too.
I made one  from  a diode bridge and  4 1 farad  caps.
The  caps are rated at 250 V

More caps or larger caps could be sued but in  general  reconditioning the batttery  should be done at a low enough power  to not make any  bubbles.   

gary   
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: haris on October 20, 2009, 08:03:49 AM
@gezgin,

Yes there are.

Attached is a circuit diagram of a lead acid battery charger that will fix your battery.

It will NOT fix the battery if the plates inside the battery is shorted out!

If you can't solder yoursef then ask a friend that can to help you build the circuit.

Groundloop.

Hi Groundloop

I'm new to this forum.. but I was reading this full thread... Just a few questions. I have an ebike which is powered by 4x12v33ah batteries in series, giving me 48v. My charger is a standard charger giving 59.5v. What will be the modifications in your circuit if i have to adapt this to my scenario.
I mean I will be using this charger as the input to your circuit and the output from this circuit will be used to charge the batteries.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: totoalas on July 28, 2010, 04:30:19 PM
Ground loop
Hi,
I want to seek your comment on your circuit
 can I use the L2 with the ff setup
L2  to  +source go to   one  reverse diode In4007  connected to neg terminal of 2  parallel 500 mfarad  600 v  from neg of capacitors to the no,1  of triac  BT41
1 and 2 are with neon 110v ac   no.3  of triac output neg  for charging

L2 to collector  connected to the + side of parallel connected capacitors then out as positive terminal for output charging

Also  instead of two  i will use six parallel 2n3055  with 3 neon bulbs connected alternately

Isolated L3 is good idea since ive just burned my circuit  when i try to charge a 12v70 ah car battery with 12 v  1,2 h  source   the neon got hot and burned the rubber insulation

also   your circuit is the same as in radiant joule thief charger 06  the only difference is L3    and the resistor / var resistor connection

Hope you can help me  one unit with both fast charger  and desulfator in one

cheers
totoalas
 
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: luishan on August 21, 2010, 07:30:58 AM
Hi Groundloop

I have a question about your circuit for the best battery charger.
What is the meaning of the directed arrow to R2 from the circuit line.
I don't have a back ground knowledge about the circuit.
But I would like to build this charger. Please help me.
Thank You.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Hope on August 21, 2010, 07:53:43 AM
KKKKKK,   i got this one guys.     A normal 850 amp CAR batt
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Hope on August 21, 2010, 08:00:25 AM
Melt in warm distilledwater 10 teaspoons Epson salts, distrubute equally into cells of a 850 amp hr battery    cook   2amp   discharge to 9volts  recharge at 2 amps    lead sulfation is GONE!   can repeat this around 5 times over the years       ))   GL  if your battery is different size  multiply diminisions and compare to 850 amp battery to get a ratio that is correct for your battery.  ))   Your battery sounds like it is shorted in one cell (prob is normally in most negative cell, perhaps a total dumping and refilling will remove that crap in the bottom that can short your plates, then clean the plates with the mag sul (epsom salts), BEWARE!!!! Your fluid is an acid!!! Treat it like poison dont get it on you or anything you want to keep!  Filter the fluids and reuse or replace with fresh electrolyte
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on August 27, 2010, 07:55:34 PM
@All,

Sorry, I have not been monitoring this thread for a while.

@totoalas,

I have sent you a email.

@luishan,

The arrow on the resistor means that this is a variable resistor (potmeter).

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: topper on November 07, 2011, 06:44:22 PM
Hi,

I am new at forum and i searched for good battery charger and i found that topic. I saw a drawing that added "groundloop" (at first page of this topic) with trifilar air coil and one thing interests me most - do i need some oscillator or other device to get some frequency to charge or just by using 1 k pot?

Topper
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on November 07, 2011, 11:55:32 PM
Hi Topper,

Build the circuit as described in the drawing. Do not change anything.
This circuit will self oscillate, no need for anything extra. The BUX80
is hard to find these days, but the BUX98 is still in production (as
far as I know) and can be used instead. Other power NPN transistors
on heat sink can also be used.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: topper on November 08, 2011, 09:40:51 PM
Hi,

I searched in Poland for bux80 and i found that tranny about 5 $:).
http://inelsc.pl/pl/p/Tranzystor-BUX80/2448

I like ure design of charger its simple. I builded a circuit below but the coil is hot as hell so i abandoned it.
http://i291.photobucket.com/albums/ll303/TEEP_photos/DSSC.jpg

I read that u use 1mm thick wire so u can charge higher current.  I have three spools of wire 0,6 mm for making trifilar coil. I will be using plastic tube but at other dimensions as u posted about 160 mm diameter and please advice what should be resistance of single wire of trifilar coil to work properly. If i know resistance of coil i will know how many turns i should make?

Topper
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on November 08, 2011, 09:53:53 PM
Topper,

If you use two strands of your 0,6mm enameled copper wire in parallel
for each of you three coils, then you will have thick enough wire in total.
I do not remember the dc resistance of the coils now, sorry, but if you
use approx. the same number of turns as posted in the circuit drawing
then the circuit will perform fine. It is not a critical design at all.

GL. 
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: topper on November 09, 2011, 08:01:53 AM
Hi,

Ok i understand trifilar coil with 3 wires that every has two strands of 0.6mm give us 6 filar coil and lot of work:). Two strands for carry the bigger current.
But bigger current wont cause the coil or transistor very hot? I thought to use only tree wires of 0.6 mm not doubled for lower heating. Will it work with that circuit?

And this circuit i cannot control how fast and how big current the battery is charged. Lets say i want to charge smaller batteries than 60 Ah ( 7 ah, 18 ah). Could be worth of putting instead of "R2" -500 ohm 4 watt potentiometer?

Any help is very appreciated:)

Topper
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on November 09, 2011, 11:51:20 AM
Topper,

Use a heat sink on the transistor. You can increase the value of the potmeter
to 1k to get a lower output from the circuit. You can use 0,6mm wire if you want
but there is a probablibility for wire heating at higher power. (Thin wire will heat more
than thick wire if you send high current through them.)

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: CompuTutor on November 10, 2011, 05:03:52 AM
The BUX80 is hard to find these days...

There still arround though,
I just got four off of eBay for $5,
$10 for all four delivered actually.

They are out there as NOS (New Old-Stock),
mine were from a retired repairmen as example,
they are even the good (RE: original) Philips ones.



EDIT:
I have written Fuji Semiconductor about another part.

You can find them on eBay as this:
"300V 20A Super High Speed Rectifier"

They come as a common cathode diode pair
in a handy TO3-P sinkable casing style.

Their simple name is roughly D92-02, D92-03, Etc.,
but they come with up to four letter prefix's,
and a few letter's worth of special part suffix's too.

I have written them asking for the part numbers for
the complimentary-opposite common-anode version
that would allow simple (two part) FWBR's for us.

These are slick,
and catch more of a coil collapse spike than many...



Your's are a good pick too (BYV29-500),
and only $1.37 each at Newark as example:
http://www.newark.com/jsp/search/productdetail.jsp?SKU=70R3667&CMP=AFC-GB100000001
But they are mid 60's in nanosecond recovery, pretty good,
but the D92-xx series is mid 30's of nanosecond recovery.

They are also the same buck-and-ahalf (US) or so in price...

Every bit helps.

Hope this helps.




Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: CompuTutor on November 10, 2011, 07:31:43 AM
Attached is a image of my unit.
As you can see I use two transistors in parallel
so that I do not need a very big heat sink.

Um,
how the heck did you squeeze a 12 centimeter coil in that box, heheh ?
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on November 10, 2011, 03:28:36 PM
CompuTutor,

I did not take a photo of my first prototype. This is the second
unit I did build. In this unit there is a ferrite rod with coils. So less
turns and more compact coil/core. I posted the first circuit drawing
because it is less fuzz to make a air core coil and most people
does not have any Ferrite. Soooo........................heheh

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Virus101 on January 09, 2012, 08:47:25 AM
Groundloop

Been scratching the web for a decent battery charger, thanks for a simple yet effective design,

Do you get the same radiant type spikes as with the Bedini systems ?

Would you bewillig to part with the specs (core diameter, wire gauge and turns, etc) on the ferrite core on your second charger in the photo, would just make for a much neater/smaller setup. I have some lengths of ferrite core laying around that I can utilize.

Virus ;D
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on January 09, 2012, 09:47:49 PM
Groundloop

Been scratching the web for a decent battery charger, thanks for a simple yet effective design,

Do you get the same radiant type spikes as with the Bedini systems ?

Would you bewillig to part with the specs (core diameter, wire gauge and turns, etc) on the ferrite core on your second charger in the photo, would just make for a much neater/smaller setup. I have some lengths of ferrite core laying around that I can utilize.

Virus ;D

@Virus,

It been a long time since I made this circuit but if my memory servers me well then
the L1 and L2 coils was approx. 100 turns of 0,5mm enameled copper wire. I did
drill holes in the metal top cover of the box to fit two MJE15003 TO-3 NPN transistors.
I did open up the box today and made the attached circuit drawing based on the
the way it was soldered together. I did measure the Ferrite rod and found it to be
10mm in diameter and 25mm long. The finished coil was approx. as wide as
it was thick. Everything was soldered together in a "rat nest" fashion inside the box.
I run my circuit from a mains power supply that gives 9 Volt at maximum 1 amp
to the circuit. The output diode is a 1000 Volt 10 amp diode. It is like a 1N4007
on steroids. :-) The circuit do make a lot of high voltage spikes at the output and
I have found the circuit to do a good job of de-sulfate batteries. I did build this circuit
to charge my 12 Volt 7 amp gel batteries. There is not much output when you try to
charge larger batteries, it will take too much time. But for smaller batteries the circuit
works very well. Hope this answer your questions.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Virus101 on January 13, 2012, 02:17:30 PM

Thanks for the effort that you put into getting the info from your system, very much appreciated, I think a lot of other people will also benefit from it,

What would be the biggest battery (you think) that can be charged effectively with this circuit, from my little research it seems the bigger the coil the bigger battery/bank you can charge?

I want to build up a battery bank system (systematically) that will eventually supply enough to run the whole house, and is currently looking at different charging option, Bedini, solid-state, magnetic/rotory systems etc, any idees from your side, what would be the most effective?

Thanks

Virus
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on January 13, 2012, 03:54:36 PM
@Virus,

The largest battery you can charge in a resonable time frame,
for the circuit posted, is a 12 V 14 A/h battery.

I can't give you an advice for a battery charger at that size. But I recommend
you look at the net. There is many good inverters that has a built in battery
charger. These inverters will give you a true sinus mains power.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: tonyben25 on January 16, 2012, 01:40:18 PM
hello
 @ Groungloop
 
 This is my first post although i have always followed the development in this forum.
 I will like to ask, did you at any time measure the frequency of oscillation of your circuit? i will appreciate if you can give the frequency of air core design and the ferrite core design.
 I thinking the higher the frequency the better the charger abilty to desulphate. Correct me if  i am wrong.
 
 
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 25, 2012, 07:54:10 AM
hello
 @ Groungloop
 
 This is my first post although i have always followed the development in this forum.
 I will like to ask, did you at any time measure the frequency of oscillation of your circuit? i will appreciate if you can give the frequency of air core design and the ferrite core design.
 I thinking the higher the frequency the better the charger abilty to desulphate. Correct me if  i am wrong.

@tonyben25,

I do not have the air core version anymore, but I did measure the Ferrite version today.
The oscillator fundamental frequency is in the high audio range but since the pulses
are "spiky" then there is a lot of RF spectrum up to approx. 5MHz. Attached is a spectrum
plot from 0 to 5Mhz. Sorry for the time it took to answer you question. I never did see this
post until today.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Bob Smith on February 25, 2012, 02:28:47 PM
tonyben and Groundloop,
I built mine a few years back with an air core, and was able to get the frequency up to about 20MHz using a potentiometer in place of a resistor. It's been awhile, but I think it was either a 5K or 10K pot. I also swapped out one of the caps - tried a few different ones to get the highest frequency possible.
Bob
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Rodelu on March 04, 2013, 10:44:23 AM
I’ve been looking for a good battery charger/desulfator and I found Groundloop’s circuit called “best_battery_charger_ever”, I built it, tested it, and have to say that it lives up to its name!

Thank you Groundloop for guiding me thru this project via PMs!

The transistor:
 the BUX80 is no longer in production, it can be found on eBay (US) but here in Europe there is no chance to get one. I substituted it for a BU208A (NPN-700V 5A) and works just fine.

The diodes:
BYV29-500 is also hard to find here, so I used BY329 (1000V 8A).

The coil:
Twisting together (evenly) 3 strands of 1mm wire, 75 meters long (each strand) was also a challenge, but after two failed attempts… success!

My first try was with a 12V / 7.2Ah half dead battery, and it came back to life after 5 discharge/charge cycles.

Thank you again Groundloop for this great circuit and all your help in the process of replicating it!!


 Rodelu


Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on March 04, 2013, 02:53:24 PM
Rodelu,

Very nice looking boxed charger! :-) Good job on the build.

What is the digital meter showing?

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: totoalas on March 04, 2013, 05:11:06 PM
Congrats   Rodelu,
I have one myself and same help was given by Groundloop  on this build    great charger   my first one on this forum 2 years ago......
I used a crt toroid and will boxed it up again .... hope you can share the digital meter ckt and indicator light which is missing in my first build...
totoalas
thanks to my mentor   Groundloop
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Rodelu on March 05, 2013, 09:23:40 AM

What is the digital meter showing?

GL.

it is showing amps output
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Rodelu on March 05, 2013, 09:29:22 AM
Congrats   Rodelu,
I have one myself and same help was given by Groundloop  on this build    great charger   my first one on this forum 2 years ago......
I used a crt toroid and will boxed it up again .... hope you can share the digital meter ckt and indicator light which is missing in my first build...
totoalas
thanks to my mentor   Groundloop

Thanks buddy...

yeah, great charger indeed!
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on March 05, 2013, 09:37:55 AM
it is showing amps output

Rodelu,

Something ready bought, or your own design?

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Rodelu on March 05, 2013, 10:07:29 AM
Rodelu,

Something ready bought, or your own design?

GL.

Got It on eBay for 5 bucks...

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/NEW-Blue-LED-DC-0-10A-Digital-display-ammeter-Ampere-Meter-tester-/251239293455?pt=UK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET&hash=item3a7f07620f
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Bob Smith on March 05, 2013, 06:01:37 PM
One of the neat things about GL's charger is the nature of its output. By substituting in a potentiometer for one of the resistors (can't remember now - not much time to look on my lunch), I was able to increase the output spike amplitude through at least 2 levels of harmonics that I could observe on my scope.
 
By hooking the leads up to a transformer, I was able to adjust the resistance until the transformer would hit resonance.
 
I believe GL's charger is harnessing radiant energy through the inductive kickback produced by its sharp transient voltage spikes.  Another interesting thing occured with small DC motors. When hooked up to the output of the charger, they would spin in either cw or ccw direction, depending, I suppose on how the brushes and commutator segments were aligned.  However, I took the shaft of the motor and spun it one way while hooked up the the GL charger, it would run that way, and conversely, if spun in the opposite direction, it would start to run that way as well.
 
In my view, this is more than just a charger. While not necessarily an OU device, it produces some interesting effects.
Bob
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: zeljkoc on March 09, 2013, 10:14:18 PM
Groundloop
Sorry about my english.
I have made desulfator according to your post from January 09,2012, with some modifications and it is not working. Instead MJE15003 I used 2N3055 and instead LT7250 four UF5408 connected in parallel.
When I connect battery and power supply desulfator buzz, transistors are warm but battery voltage is anchanged. There is no output current. When I connect battery to a standard charger voltage rise.
Any suggestions?
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on March 10, 2013, 12:09:47 PM
Groundloop
Sorry about my english.
I have made desulfator according to your post from January 09,2012, with some modifications and it is not working. Instead MJE15003 I used 2N3055 and instead LT7250 four UF5408 connected in parallel.
When I connect battery and power supply desulfator buzz, transistors are warm but battery voltage is anchanged. There is no output current. When I connect battery to a standard charger voltage rise.
Any suggestions?

Hi zeljkoc,

I do not recommend using the 2N3055 transistor in this circuit. The transistor is slow and does not tolerate
high voltage spikes from the coils. See if you can find any NPN power transistor that can take a higher voltage.
Also always use a heat sink on the transistor. I recommend using one NTE2354 on a heat sink.

Do you have a o-scope? Put a 12 Volt bulb (5-12 Watt) at the output as a load and o-scope to see if the oscillator
is actually running. Try swapping the L1 coil around to get a running oscillator.

Never run this circuit without a load. Always connect load first and then the input power. Have you checked that
your 2N3055 transistors are OK? One can be faulty stopping the oscillator. (If you are using two in parallel.)

The UF5408 diodes you are using is OK to use in this circuit. The UF5408 is rated 3 Ampere so it should be
enough to use one of them at the output.

What is the size (Ampere/Hour) of the battery you are trying to charge?

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Rodelu on March 10, 2013, 06:12:02 PM
Try swapping the L1 coil around to get a running oscillator.

This happened to me the first time: L1 was connected the wrong way, oscillation did not start and the transistor got quite hot...
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: zeljkoc on March 10, 2013, 08:51:10 PM
Hi
I put a heat sink on the transistors.
Can not find NTE2354, but I find that some of BU transistors are alike and I can buy them.
(2508A, 2508AF, 2520D, 2520DF, 2525A what do you think abot them)
I dont have osciloscope.
What does it mean "swapping"?
Transistors 2N3055 are OK. They are not from same manufacturer so they might not be the same quality.
Battery is 12V/6Ah.What is the limit for this carger?
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on March 11, 2013, 01:14:55 AM
Hi
I put a heat sink on the transistors.
Can not find NTE2354, but I find that some of BU transistors are alike and I can buy them.
(2508A, 2508AF, 2520D, 2520DF, 2525A what do you think abot them)
I dont have osciloscope.
What does it mean "swapping"?
Transistors 2N3055 are OK. They are not from same manufacturer so they might not be the same quality.
Battery is 12V/6Ah.What is the limit for this carger?

zeljkoc,

Use 1 transistor onto a heat sink:

BU2508A        OK to use in your circuit, recommended. :-)
BU2508AF      OK to use in your circuit. :-)
BU2520D        NOT OK to use. :-(
BU2520DF      NOT OK to use. :-(
BU2525A        OK to use in your circuit, recommended. :-)

Swapping means disconnecting the two wires on the trigger coil (L1, the one connected to the BASE of the transistor etc.)
and then put the other ends of the wires back into the circuit again. If the wires on the trigger coil is wrongly
connected, then all you get is a positive voltage on the base of the transistor, turning it on, transistor heats up, but
no oscillations in the circuit. No oscillations = No output to charge a battery.

The 12V/6Ah battery is OK to be charged on this circuit. The circuit will charge ANY lead acid battery, but
the larger (bigger) the battery, the longer time it will take to charge.

I have updated the drawing for you and attached the drawing here.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: zeljkoc on March 11, 2013, 10:19:44 PM
Groundloop,
The minute I send a reply I realize what do you mean when you wrote "swapping". When I read Rodelu`s post I was sure what to do. I change positions of the ends of L1 and it`s working.
Thank you.
2N3055 is slow but it works. When I replace him with BU2508A charger will run much efficiently.
Something strange happened when I connect power supply and start to rise input voltage. Everything was OK till input voltage reach about 5.4 V and current 0.4 A. Afther that voltage jump to 7 V, current drop to 0.15 A and charger stop. I turn off charger and start again but it repeats so I leave charger at 5.4 V to see does it work.
Thank you for drawing update and suggestions.
                                                                                            zeljkoc
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on March 11, 2013, 10:48:53 PM
Groundloop,
The minute I send a reply I realize what do you mean when you wrote "swapping". When I read Rodelu`s post I was sure what to do. I change positions of the ends of L1 and it`s working.
Thank you.
2N3055 is slow but it works. When I replace him with BU2508A charger will run much efficiently.
Something strange happened when I connect power supply and start to rise input voltage. Everything was OK till input voltage reach about 5.4 V and current 0.4 A. Afther that voltage jump to 7 V, current drop to 0.15 A and charger stop. I turn off charger and start again but it repeats so I leave charger at 5.4 V to see does it work.
Thank you for drawing update and suggestions.
                                                                                            zeljkoc

zeljkoc,

The oscillator stops at higher input voltage because the bias voltage to the base of the transistor
will keep the transistor conducting current and the pulse from the trigger coil is too small to switch
the transistor. There are several ways to avoid this. 1 - Avoid higher input voltages. 2 - Increase the
resistance of the resistor. 3 - Increase the number of turns on both coils. 4 - Use a bigger Ferrite core.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: zeljkoc on March 12, 2013, 05:45:39 PM
Groundloop
With BU2508A I can reach 12V of input voltage and 0.25A of input current without problem. 2N3055 is realy slow.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on March 13, 2013, 03:21:18 PM
Groundloop
With BU2508A I can reach 12V of input voltage and 0.25A of input current without problem. 2N3055 is realy slow.

zeljkoc,

OK. Good work. :-)

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: guruji on July 31, 2013, 09:23:42 PM
Hi GL thanks for this circuit. I 've built this with a 150nf cap and a 1k pot on about 100T coils. Transistor d13009.
No success yet.
Any help please?
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: guruji on August 01, 2013, 08:51:52 PM
Ok found the fault working now :)
Thanks
Title: Re: Scaling up the circuit
Post by: seanK on October 10, 2013, 12:38:37 PM
Hi GroundLoop

I have played with this circuit a while ago and it seemed to work well for small NiMh batteries I had.
I was wondering what would need to be scaled up to work on large capacity batteries (i.e. 100+ah) ?

Sean
Title: Re: Scaling up the circuit
Post by: Groundloop on October 10, 2013, 07:24:05 PM
Hi GroundLoop

I have played with this circuit a while ago and it seemed to work well for small NiMh batteries I had.
I was wondering what would need to be scaled up to work on large capacity batteries (i.e. 100+ah) ?

Sean

Sean,

The circuit will work on larger batteries also.
You just need to use a regular battery charger after the circuit has
removed the sulphate in the the batteries. I have not tried to scale up
this circuit, so I do not have any good advice on how to do that.
Maybe larger current capacity transistor? Fewer turns on the coil with
thicker copper wire? More bias current to the base of the transistor?
Etc..........

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: seanK on October 11, 2013, 07:57:47 AM
Thanks for your reply GL,

I will try your suggestions and update the post later.
Thanks again
Sean
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Richdes on January 08, 2014, 02:36:40 AM
Hello everybody in special to Groundloop this is my first post here an after read the complete post (12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?) I have decide go for the first circuit with air core but I Just I have #14 wire Wich is 1.6mm Is ok for air core or not? and the transistor what I have is 2sc4060 almost the same of BUX80 only different in his emitter base voltage BUX80 is (Veb)10v and 2sc4060 (Veb)7v I thin I need with this transistor 6v from input . Thanks a lottttt  I Wait for your advices and experience
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on January 08, 2014, 01:42:35 PM
Hello everybody in special to Groundloop this is my first post here an after read the complete post (12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?) I have decide go for the first circuit with air core but I Just I have #14 wire Wich is 1.6mm Is ok for air core or not? and the transistor what I have is 2sc4060 almost the same of BUX80 only different in his emitter base voltage BUX80 is (Veb)10v and 2sc4060 (Veb)7v I thin I need with this transistor 6v from input . Thanks a lottttt  I Wait for your advices and experience

Hi Richdes,

If you look one page back on this thread then you will see the good work on member "Rodelu".
The problem with your 1,6mm wire is that it will be difficult to twist the three wires together
before you wind the air core coil, but it can be done, I guess. The transistor (2SC4060) is OK to use
and you will need a heat sink on the transistor. If you have other questions, feel free to ask.

GL.

Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Richdes on January 08, 2014, 03:50:53 PM
Thank you Groundloop for your zoon reply I have made the inductor calculation and with 75 meter 1mm 18#  0d 100mm 75 meters give me an 2 MH of coil inductance and to get the same inductance with 14# and 0d 100mm to get 2MH the calculator has given to me 110 meters instead 75meters with #18 the coil calculator is here http://ekalk.eu/l_es.html tell me if I right or wrong and what about the input vcc with the 2sc4060 I guess 6 o 5v what do you think about it, !do you read my mind when you reply me! . I was planning to coil serpentreal as Rodelu did. The 2sc4060 is a litter faster Than BUX80 and more powerful in current, whith 14# gauge the circuit will be more powerful Don't you Think so?
                                   Best regards
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on January 08, 2014, 06:52:24 PM
Thank you Groundloop for your zoon reply I have made the inductor calculation and with 75 meter 1mm 18#  0d 100mm 75 meters give me an 2 MH of coil inductance and to get the same inductance with 14# and 0d 100mm to get 2MH the calculator has given to me 110 meters instead 75meters with #18 the coil calculator is here http://ekalk.eu/l_es.html tell me if I right or wrong and what about the input vcc with the 2sc4060 I guess 6 o 5v what do you think about it, !do you read my mind when you reply me! . I was planning to coil serpentreal as Rodelu did. The 2sc4060 is a litter faster Than BUX80 and more powerful in current, whith 14# gauge the circuit will be more powerful Don't you Think so?
                                   Best regards

Richdes,

You can use A LOT of approximation on the coils because you can adjust the base input feedback.
If you use lesser turn than 200 then it only means you will have less inductance and higher pulse
current through the transistor. You will get approx. 63 meters of copper wire with 200 turns onto
a 100mm plastic tube. (A little more because each layer adds the diameter.) But it is NOT that
important. You can regulate the current usage by the variable resistor AND your maximal input
voltage to the circuit. The though job for you is to twist the copper wires. You probably has to
cut three length (approx. 65 meter) and then manually twist those three wires together. Probably
doing so outdoors with the help of two other persons.

The circuit will run from 1 Volt up to the voltage that you cross the safe operating area of the transistor.
Do NOT run the circuit without any load on the output! Doing that (no load) will kill the transistor
due to over voltage. A safe input voltage is from 1 Volt up to 12 Volt.

I agree that your implementation will give you more output due to the recommended lesser inductance coils.
But it depends on your variable resistor setting and your choice of input voltage. The voltage "spikes" in the
coil must not be higher than 600 Volt for your transistor. But the important issue here is to get those "spikes"
into the load and dissipate them there to keep the transistor safe.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Richdes on January 18, 2014, 03:30:51 PM
Hi Groundloop I m here again I was busy for a while but  yesterday I have made my coil with #14 gauge, as you told me: !was difficult but not impossible! and I could did it this is my first trifilar coil 200 turns of #14 gauge twisted together and just waiting for the BYV29 that are on the way. I m planning to make put a 5w 1k resistor on the output circuit to avoid to damage the transistor by this way the circuit will never run without a small load to avoid high spikes. what do you think about it? I have another idea if the circuit runs so far so good as I expect I want to make five coils and five circuits connecting all outputs in series to desulphate 60v battery bank.What do you think about it? Could it be done?.
  Best regards Groundloop all your posts are well explained
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on January 18, 2014, 08:12:30 PM
Hi Groundloop I m here again I was busy for a while but  yesterday I have made my coil with #14 gauge, as you told me: !was difficult but not impossible! and I could did it this is my first trifilar coil 200 turns of #14 gauge twisted together and just waiting for the BYV29 that are on the way. I m planning to make put a 5w 1k resistor on the output circuit to avoid to damage the transistor by this way the circuit will never run without a small load to avoid high spikes. what do you think about it? I have another idea if the circuit runs so far so good as I expect I want to make five coils and five circuits connecting all outputs in series to desulphate 60v battery bank.What do you think about it? Could it be done?.
  Best regards Groundloop all your posts are well explained

Richdes,

Great job of winding the thick copper wires. One thing I did see in your pictures was some
copper wire to keep the coil together. Please use plastic strips only. Connecting a resistor
at the output (permanently) will defeat the purpose of the circuit. The main purpose of the
circuit is the high voltage spikes so that your sulphated battery connected to the output will
be fixed and the battery charged. I will highly recommend that you ALWAYS connect the
load to the circuit first, then you switch on the oscillator. If you absolutely must run the
circuit without a load, then you can use a over voltage protector in series with your resistor,
and connect the over voltage protector between the output of your circuit.
The over voltage protector must be of a value less than your transistor maximum voltage.
I recommend a over voltage protector with a voltage of 470 Volt. EPCOS has a protector
called 470 VDC 5 kA 5 A, B88069-X2010-S102. It will do the job. That said, the simplest
solution is to always connect a load before you switch on the circuit.

I do not recommend connecting five circuit outputs in series. If you desulphate a battery with
the circuit first, then you can use a regular charger later on to charge the battery.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Richdes on January 18, 2014, 09:01:18 PM
Thank you What you see in the picture to keep the coil together
is not copper wire is thread to sew that I use between the layers of the coil when I was coiling to hold every layer and what you see in the picture is the coil enameled for that reason you saw it like a copper wire. My goal trying to put five circuits together is never use a regular charger to charge my 60v electric scooter at home instead always use the five circuits, but if you told me that is no recommended I don't do it.
                        Thank you
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on January 18, 2014, 09:14:41 PM
Thank you What you see in the picture to keep the coil together
is not copper wire is thread to sew that I use between the layers of the coil when I was coiling to hold every layer and what you see in the picture is the coil enameled for that reason you saw it like a copper wire. My goal trying to put five circuits together is never use a regular charger to charge my 60v electric scooter at home instead always use the five circuits, but if you told me that is no recommended I don't do it.
                        Thank you

Richdes,

Does your 60v electric scooter use lead acid batteries? If so, then you can desulphate and charge them all
at once if all of the batteries are in series. You only need one circuit to do that.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Richdes on January 18, 2014, 09:53:33 PM
Yes My 60v electric scooter use lead acid sealed (AGM) batteries I can add distilled water without any trouble but you tell me that with one circuit I can desulphate five 50ah batteries in series. Do you tell me that the circuit could do the same with one or five in series?
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on January 18, 2014, 10:43:30 PM
Yes My 60v electric scooter use lead acid sealed (AGM) batteries I can add distilled water without any trouble but you tell me that with one circuit I can desulphate five 50ah batteries in series. Do you tell me that the circuit could do the same with one or five in series?

Richdes,

Yes, I see no reason why not. Just disconnect the + wire on the battery that goes to your bike
to isolate the series batteries from the bike electronic. Then connect the circuit and add power
to the circuit. If the batteries is very sulphated, then the voltage over the batteries will go very
high at first. After that the voltage will slowly drop down to a lower voltage. After that the voltage
will slowly climb again. Stop charging on the circuit when the rest voltage is above 12 * 5 Volt and
connect to your regular charger to top charge the batteries.

EDIT: Added a typical voltage diagram when you desulphate a lead acid battery.

I would also like to repeat some safety tips. Always connect the charge battery before switching on input power. Always switch off input power before disconnecting the charge battery. Always charge in a good ventilated area. Never charge a battery without supervision. Never overcharge a battery. Always check that the battery has the correct water level. Refill with distilled water if low water level. If the battery is defect (short circuit) and all you get is a warm battery with no voltage climb then stop the charger and recycle the battery to the nearest recycle station. This charger can not repair a shorted battery cell.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Richdes on January 19, 2014, 01:19:45 AM
My batteries aren't very sulphated they can take charge until 13.7v when the battery charger stop charging the batteries go slowly down to 12.9 v but I know that are sulfated cause they cant hold much time my scooter autonomy has been reduced to less than a half There not shorted cells cause I have a load 100 ah battery tester and the batteries pass the test every battery is ok I guess don't you think so?

        Thanks a lot again
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Richdes on January 19, 2014, 01:32:47 AM
 Excuse me Just the last question I forget to ask you this: In your experience do you think that they can recover his ah/hour power again the internal resistence are not higth on full charge is 10mohm ,11mohm,12mohm no more and the battery manual say 6mohm when where new
       Thank you
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on January 19, 2014, 01:39:19 AM
My batteries aren't very sulphated they can take charge until 13.7v when the battery charger stop charging the batteries go slowly down to 12.9 v but I know that are sulfated cause they cant hold much time my scooter autonomy has been reduced to less than a half There not shorted cells cause I have a load 100 ah battery tester and the batteries pass the test every battery is ok I guess don't you think so?

        Thanks a lot again

Richdes,

My best guess is that your batteries will improve on each cycle charged by the circuit.
After your drive, when the batteries is low on charge, use the circuit until the voltage
on each of your five batteries is above 12 volt. Then top charge the batteries on your
regular charger. Run your bike until the batteries is low again, and repeat. After just
a few charge/discharge cycles you will see a improvement in your batteries. Repeat
the cycles until you can't see any more improvements. Then after a few regular charge
and discharge cycles, use the circuit again.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on January 19, 2014, 01:42:43 AM
Excuse me Just the last question I forget to ask you this: In your experience do you think that they can recover his ah/hour power again the internal resistence are not higth on full charge is 10mohm ,11mohm,12mohm no more and the battery manual say 6mohm when where new
       Thank you

Richdes,

Yes, that is the point of a desulphator circuit. The internal resistance in the batteries will go
down when the lead plates is cleaner. The batteries will go up in amp/hour capacity for each
discharge/charge cycle.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Richdes on January 19, 2014, 02:03:16 AM
Thans a lot I m just waiting for the diodes to start.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: overunitt on April 17, 2014, 10:02:18 PM
@ Groundloop

I'm guessing to transform the basic trifilar coil (one trigger- one  power - one inductive power collector charger)  in a (one trigger- two power ) coil.  So two bifilar power strands with a transistor each connected in parallel for more amps out.
What should be the correct circuit because I'm a novice in electronics ?
Thanks !
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: tonyben25 on June 13, 2014, 02:43:13 PM
I just want to find what type of batteries could be desulphated. I have tried to desulphating some sealed lead acid battery and cacium lead  battery with little success. I dont know if it is the quality of the batteries that is the issue or the circuit is not good at reviving sealed batteries. I will like to know what other people experience has been.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: SeaMonkey on June 16, 2014, 07:16:31 AM
With the sealed lead acid batteries it is a bit more difficult.
Quite often they've lost nearly all of their water due to
overcharging and in order to begin the rejuvenation process
distilled water must be added to each cell.

I've just begun rejuvenating two 12 Volt 8 Ampere Hour sealed
batteries which were dry.  I was able to pop the top covers off to
expose the valves/filler vent holes and then added about 80 cc
of distilled water/Magnesium Sulfate solution to each cell.

With electrolyte now in the cells the desulfation process started
very slowly for about three days of steady pulsing until the
sulfation started to break down - then the recovery process
accelerated quickly and the pulsing current increased
substantially as the battery voltage decreased from more than
20 Volts to about 10 Volts.

The batteries have thus far recovered about 1/3 of their capacity
which is a good start but they still need additional pulsing to
complete the desulfation.  I've been working on them now for
nearly two weeks.  Sometimes it is a slow process.

Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: tonyben25 on June 16, 2014, 12:45:50 PM
Hello Seamonkey,

Thanks for the info. But i will like to ask why you added magnesium sulphate solution.  will only distill water not do?

Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: MarkE on June 16, 2014, 12:50:52 PM
With the sealed lead acid batteries it is a bit more difficult.
Quite often they've lost nearly all of their water due to
overcharging and in order to begin the rejuvenation process
distilled water must be added to each cell.

I've just begun rejuvenating two 12 Volt 8 Ampere Hour sealed
batteries which were dry.  I was able to pop the top covers off to
expose the valves/filler vent holes and then added about 80 cc
of distilled water/Magnesium Sulfate solution to each cell.

With electrolyte now in the cells the desulfation process started
very slowly for about three days of steady pulsing until the
sulfation started to break down - then the recovery process
accelerated quickly and the pulsing current increased
substantially as the battery voltage decreased from more than
20 Volts to about 10 Volts.

The batteries have thus far recovered about 1/3 of their capacity
which is a good start but they still need additional pulsing to
complete the desulfation.  I've been working on them now for
nearly two weeks.  Sometimes it is a slow process.
The one thing to watch out for is if too much lead has fallen from the plates and built-up at the bottom of any of the cells, then it can short out that cell.  At a convenient point between cycles you might tip the battery up at a low angle: say 5 to 10 degrees and let it set and check the terminal voltage from time to time.  If it drops by about one cell's worth, then the desulfation will only help for a short time as you are on the verge of permanent battery death.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: SeaMonkey on June 16, 2014, 09:58:12 PM
Hello Seamonkey,

Thanks for the info. But i will like to ask why you added magnesium sulphate solution.  will only distill water not do?

Yes, distilled water is all that is needed.

I've been evaluating the use of Magnesium Sulfate as a
battery additive for a couple of years now.  I add it to all
of my automobile batteries when topping off the water
level in the cells and now add it to my sealed batteries
when they're in need of rejuvenation and water.

The Magnesium Sulfate raises the level of sulfate ion
in solution in the electrolyte which helps to keep the
lead sulfate which forms on the plates insoluble and
therefore it stays on the plates instead of going into
solution.  It also increases slightly the conductivity of
the electrolyte to assist charging and rejuvenation.

I prepare a saturated solution of Magnesium Sulfate
with distilled water and add it to the batteries as
necessary.

The two 12 Volt 8 Ampere Hour batteries that I've been
most recently rejuvenating were removed from a scooter
where they'd been sitting unused for at least two years.
So far they're now showing near normal charging voltage
and are able to power a load for several hours at a low
rate of discharge.  Their internal resistance is still too
great for powering any loads at a high current level
so this probably means that there is still considerable
sulfation in the plates.  When I first began battery
rejuvenation about 12 years ago certain heavily sulfated
batteries took more than two months of continuous
pulsing to restore maximum capacity.  The circuit I used
back then was very low power.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: SeaMonkey on June 16, 2014, 10:05:16 PM
The one thing to watch out for is if too much lead has fallen from the plates and built-up at the bottom of any of the cells, then it can short out that cell.  At a convenient point between cycles you might tip the battery up at a low angle: say 5 to 10 degrees and let it set and check the terminal voltage from time to time.  If it drops by about one cell's worth, then the desulfation will only help for a short time as you are on the verge of permanent battery death.

Yes, I've experienced those unexpectedly occurring "shorts" in
the cells when working with several old automotive batteries.
Just as it looks like its about to begin recovery one or more of
the cells suddenly develop "shorts."  Once they've reached that
degree of deterioration all they're good for is "cores'" when
exchanging them for batteries in better health.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: SeaMonkey on June 22, 2014, 08:40:25 AM
One of the sealed 12 Volt 8 Ampere Hour batteries
seems to have developed a problem in one cell.

The battery can be charged to 14.4 Volts but when
left to sit for several days the battery voltage drops
to 10.8 Volts.  One cell apparently has some resistance
between the plates which is self-discharging the cell
rather rapidly.

These problems never seem to clear with sealed batteries.

I'll continue pulsing it for several more days to see what
happens.  Perhaps I'll perform surgery on it to examine the
bad cell and discover precisely what has happened.

Then, maybe not.

The other battery is responding normally thus far.

Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Paul-R on June 24, 2014, 04:26:42 PM
I had hoped that this thread was about replacing lead acid batteries with capacitors.

Is anyone working on creating a capacitor of capacity comparable to a 12V 60a BATTY?
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: free4every1 on September 01, 2014, 10:17:12 PM
@groundloop
i noticed rodelu made a coil with twisted wire .
i don't see you mention twisting the wire in your first posting of the battery charger.
Is it really necessary to do this ?
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: mscoffman on September 03, 2014, 04:52:58 AM
I had hoped that this thread was about replacing lead acid batteries with capacitors.

Is anyone working on creating a capacitor of capacity comparable to a 12V 60a BATTY?


User lasersaber at laserhacker.com did it with supercapacitors. See his vids at youtube.com as well.
Starting power is excellent but Ah capacity of supercapacitors rating is well below that of the
acid/lead battery. Might be workable with one of those primary/secondary battery dual diodes.


---


Twisting wire would make difference only at rf frequencies. Twisting wire at low frequencies on this device
would be a waste of wire.


:S:MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on September 03, 2014, 02:54:05 PM
@groundloop
i noticed rodelu made a coil with twisted wire .
i don't see you mention twisting the wire in your first posting of the battery charger.
Is it really necessary to do this ?

If you look at the first post and drawing, then you will see that I recommended a bifilar air core coil.
My understanding at that time was that a bifilar coil was twisted together. A perfect square pulse
is composed of many frequencies, even ones in high MHz range. Since the wires is close together,
when twisted, then you get a lot of capacitive coupling between the three coils. This makes, for some
unknown reason to me, a better running oscillator and better performance of the circuit.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Paul-R on September 03, 2014, 03:14:39 PM

User lasersaber at laserhacker.com did it with supercapacitors. See his vids at youtube.com as well.

acid/lead battery. Might be workable with one of those primary/secondary battery dual diodes.

Thanks. ... and, as a bonus, it looks as if we get to convert the fans from office fans into helicopters!
(I have a stack of these sky blue fellas since I find the motors useful).
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Richdes on September 03, 2014, 05:40:22 PM
Hey GL I have playing with this circuit for long time with some god and bad results. I have burn many transistors now I m waiting for superpower transistor 2SC5570 winch is 1700v 56A peak current and 100ns fast switching but now I have some ideas to get fast desulphation process like to make a step up air coil transformer with 9 turns #4 magnet wire in primary and 200 turns for secondary windings as you teach us in your circuit my goal is tuning exactly 3.26mhz on primary and induct that freq in secondary with high volt spikes what do you think about it Groundloop.. 
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on September 03, 2014, 11:04:38 PM
Hey GL I have playing with this circuit for long time with some god and bad results. I have burn many transistors now I m waiting for superpower transistor 2SC5570 winch is 1700v 56A peak current and 100ns fast switching but now I have some ideas to get fast desulphation process like to make a step up air coil transformer with 9 turns #4 magnet wire in primary and 200 turns for secondary windings as you teach us in your circuit my goal is tuning exactly 3.26mhz on primary and induct that freq in secondary with high volt spikes what do you think about it Groundloop..

Richdes,

The power transistor will burn if you run the circuit with no output load. One way to protect the transistor
against over voltage is to put a Transient Suppressor over the collector to the emitter. EPCOS has many
good Transient Suppressors. Select one that has a voltage rating below the maximum SOA of the transistor,
but still high enough to get high voltage "spikes" on the output. So for your 1700 volt transistor
the Transient Suppressor should kick in at around 1000 volt or so. Also use a good heat sink on the transistor. The 2SC5570 transistor will probably do a good job in the circuit. Why 3,6MHz? Do you plan to "hit" the
battery resonance point?

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Richdes on September 04, 2014, 03:09:44 PM
Yes I m trying to hit the battery with the high voltage spikes at the resonance frequency of the sulfate the transistors what I burned was just 600v rated and yes sometimes my circuit run without load and burned it for that reason I will get 1700v transistor the spikes will never burn it. by the way you say that this circuit runs on several mhz?. I read the frequency with a multimeter that read till 30mhz and just I can read with your large coil just several khz. so I  guess that you must read several mhz in the crest of the spikes? But I cant read the frequency there, cause I don't have scope. In  my tests with a few tuns is the only way to get in the range of mhz for that reason now I m thinking 9 turns for primary 200 turns for secondary (step up transformer) to get the rigth frequ
 
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on September 04, 2014, 04:30:35 PM
Yes I m trying to hit the battery with the high voltage spikes at the resonance frequency of the sulfate the transistors what I burned was just 600v rated and yes sometimes my circuit run without load and burned it for that reason I will get 1700v transistor the spikes will never burn it. by the way you say that this circuit runs on several mhz?. I read the frequency with a multimeter that read till 30mhz and just I can read with your large coil just several khz. so I  guess that you must read several mhz in the crest of the spikes? But I cant read the frequency there, cause I don't have scope. In  my tests with a few tuns is the only way to get in the range of mhz for that reason now I m thinking 9 turns for primary 200 turns for secondary (step up transformer) to get the rigth frequ

Richdes,

The actual fundamental frequency of the circuit is low, in the KHz area, but as you say, the leading edge
of the pulse is sharp and that creates many over harmonics frequencies. You are also correct when you say
you need fewer turns on the primary coil to get higher frequencies. Good luck in you research.

GL.
Title: Circuit Running properly?
Post by: Jes114 on December 12, 2014, 09:08:25 AM
Hi Groundloop,

Firstly thank you for posting this circuit, I was waiting to build one for a long time and when I saw this one I went for it.
I have a few questions though please because I am not sure it is working correctly:

1- I did not twist the 1mm wires together before winding them on a 100mm former, I didn't read that I needed that so I wound them just together; will this be enough do you think?
2- the first battery I tried is a 12V 9AH sealed Lead acid which has been dry for a long time: I opened the caps and added distilled water twice before connecting it to the charger. Voltage was at 2.77 and remained static after it was connected for an hour or so; is this right behaviour?
3- The charger is being fed by a bench power supply, currently at 9V, drawing 0.74A and the BUX80 is only slightly warm; is there a way to find out for sure if it is oscillating without an oscilloscope? The closest I have is a frequency measuring multimeter

I checked the circuit carefully and it looks ok, I even labelled the coil ends to make sure the 3 ends at top of circuit are all from the same side of it, ie they're not swapped.

Thank you for your help.
Title: Re: Circuit Running properly?
Post by: Groundloop on December 17, 2014, 02:59:35 PM
Hi Groundloop,

Firstly thank you for posting this circuit, I was waiting to build one for a long time and when I saw this one I went for it.
I have a few questions though please because I am not sure it is working correctly:

1- I did not twist the 1mm wires together before winding them on a 100mm former, I didn't read that I needed that so I wound them just together; will this be enough do you think?
2- the first battery I tried is a 12V 9AH sealed Lead acid which has been dry for a long time: I opened the caps and added distilled water twice before connecting it to the charger. Voltage was at 2.77 and remained static after it was connected for an hour or so; is this right behaviour?
3- The charger is being fed by a bench power supply, currently at 9V, drawing 0.74A and the BUX80 is only slightly warm; is there a way to find out for sure if it is oscillating without an oscilloscope? The closest I have is a frequency measuring multimeter

I checked the circuit carefully and it looks ok, I even labelled the coil ends to make sure the 3 ends at top of circuit are all from the same side of it, ie they're not swapped.

Thank you for your help.

Hi Jes114,

Sorry, I did not see this post before now. Your coil will probably do fine without the twisting.

Connect a 12 Volt 10 Watt car lamp to the output to check if the circuit is oscillating. If you get
light in the bulb, then the circuit is oscillating. If, not swap the base trigger coil ends and try again.

Now you battery, if one or more cells in the battery is shorted, then trow battery into the recycle bin!

If the battery voltage really jumps up to a high voltage when you switch on the circuit, then the battery
is probably OK. Just charge the battery and watch the voltage go down when the sulphate is being
reduced in the battery. After a while (depending on the size of the battery) the voltage will reach its lower
point (normally around 11 Volt or so) and will start climbing. Continue charging until the battery is at
approx. 13,5 Volt. Then use a 12 Volt 10 Watt (or so) light bulb and drain the battery down to 12 Volt.
After that you just charge the battery up again. Repeat process at least 3 to 5 time. After that you can
use a regular (factory made) lead acid battery charger and fully charge the battery.

If you connect a lead acid battery to the circuit and the voltage does not climb, or the battery gets warm
or the battery smell funny, then the battery is defect and must be recycled.

Hope this help.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on January 15, 2015, 09:58:48 AM
Hi Groundloop

Thank you for the circuit and all the information you have been providing. I am in the process of getting the necessary parts to build this charger with the air-core coils. I have some larger batteries that I want to try and condition. As I am quite a newbie I have a few silly questions to ask if you will pardon my ignorance.

1. On the first circuit you posted I assume that the 220nF Cap must be 1000v too?
2. I do not have access to an oscilloscope so was wondering if there is a way to ensure that one connects the coils the correct way around from the onset.
3. What is the resistance of the 50R 5W resistor. 5 Ohms or 50 Ohms?
4. What would be the easiest way to twist the three 18 gauge wires together?
5. How do I know to what value to set the pot initially?
6. Will a 9v 1A DC power supply be sufficient for the circuit?
7. Out of curiosity. What causes the circuit to self oscillate?

Thank you

Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on January 16, 2015, 07:06:14 AM
Hi.

I've realised that it is a 50 Ohm 5W resistor. I have a 56 Ohm 5W resistor. What will the impact be on the output of the circuit?

Thanks
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on January 17, 2015, 11:29:44 AM
Hi Groundloop

Thank you for the circuit and all the information you have been providing. I am in the process of getting the necessary parts to build this charger with the air-core coils. I have some larger batteries that I want to try and condition. As I am quite a newbie I have a few silly questions to ask if you will pardon my ignorance.

1. On the first circuit you posted I assume that the 220nF Cap must be 1000v too?
2. I do not have access to an oscilloscope so was wondering if there is a way to ensure that one connects the coils the correct way around from the onset.
3. What is the resistance of the 50R 5W resistor. 5 Ohms or 50 Ohms?
4. What would be the easiest way to twist the three 18 gauge wires together?
5. How do I know to what value to set the pot initially?
6. Will a 9v 1A DC power supply be sufficient for the circuit?
7. Out of curiosity. What causes the circuit to self oscillate?

Thank you

Mars67,

1. The voltage rating on the 220nF capacitor must be large enough to tolerate the bias input plus the trigger coil pulses.
    You can use almost any type of non-polarized capacitor here. A 100 Volt capacitor will do fine.

2. You can build the circuit, and then connect a 12 Volt 10 Watt car lamp to the output. If the circuit is oscillating then
    the car lamp will light. If not, then swap the ends of the trigger coil (L1).

3. The 50R resistor is 50  Ohm. You can also use a 47  Ohm 5 Watt resistor here.

4. There is one easy way to twist the wires together. You can make a disk out of laminated wood and drill three holes in the disk.
    In the center of the disk you drill one hole for a 6mm bolt. You then cut your three enameled copper wire to length, thread the
    wires through the disk and fasten the wires to a three or door knob or something. You then spin the disk with a drill and walk
    backwards away from the door knob etc. Now the three wires will gradually be twisted together.

5. Set the pot to its highest resistance at first start up.

6. 9 Volt 1 Ampere will run the circuit. But if you turn the pot-meter resistance too much down, then the power supply may get warm.

7. The circuit will oscillate because you use a active element with amplification, a transistor, and coils.
    Read more about oscillators here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_oscillator

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on January 17, 2015, 11:35:21 AM
Hi.

I've realised that it is a 50 Ohm 5W resistor. I have a 56 Ohm 5W resistor. What will the impact be on the output of the circuit?

Thanks

Mars67,

You can use your 56  Ohm resistor. The impact on the circuit will be almost none.
(Actually a little lower bias current to the transistor on low pot-meter setting, but not important.)

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on January 19, 2015, 06:33:04 AM
Hey Groundloop
Thank you for your prompt response and the good information as usual. I have ordered 18 Gauge wire and am waiting for the supplier to get stock. As soon as I have that I will start the build.

It is funny how one can know something about electronics and yet not know anything about something as fundamental as ocscillators. Thanks for the link. Another puzzle piece fell into place for me.

I am very curious to see the outcome.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on January 19, 2015, 08:00:37 PM
Hey Groundloop
Thank you for your prompt response and the good information as usual. I have ordered 18 Gauge wire and am waiting for the supplier to get stock. As soon as I have that I will start the build.

It is funny how one can know something about electronics and yet not know anything about something as fundamental as ocscillators. Thanks for the link. Another puzzle piece fell into place for me.

I am very curious to see the outcome.

Mars67,

Regarding point 4 in my above post. You also need to have three wood pegs on the plate that
holds three bobbins for the three copper wires, so that the copper wire can be feed from the
bobbins as the plate is rotated. Attached is a simple drawing that may show my idea. So while
you are waiting for parts then maybe you can build the coil winder disk?

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on January 20, 2015, 08:38:48 AM
Thanks Groundloop

That is a great idea! I was thinking along the same lines but was worried if the insulation on the wires might not be damaged. I'm not sure how easily that could happen. I was thinking of mounting the bobbins with the shaft around which the bobbing spins horizontally to the plane of the disk with the feed end directly over the hole to minimise the risk of chafing. I just don't know how I am going to ensure enough tension on the bobbins for controlled feed. Perhaps use small machine screws as shafts and just tighten them. I will experiment with some ideas and post here. I also need to find something to use as bobbins.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on January 26, 2015, 11:24:11 AM
I made a wire winder out of Plexiglas that I had lying around. I mounted the bobbins with the axis vertically to the plane of the disk as suggested by Groundloop because the disc is a little too small to make it practical and I was in a hurry to get going. As I suspected I was going to have some issues with feeding the wire off the bobbins and it was the case so I ended up feeding a meter or two and then winding it up with my battery drill/screwdriver as I was going along. I had the drill set to screwdriver setting. You need to do this whilst concentrating on the tightness of the winds and trying to keep you fingers out the way of the spinning bobbins. The end product, whilst not professional, should work ok.

I did not know what to use and decided to try using the spools solder wire is supplied on. It turns out that 78 meters of 1mm Magnetic wire fills up the spool almost completely. I simply measured off 78 meters of wire and then ran it onto the spool with my drill. I found that the spool I took the most trouble to roll on the wire slowly and neatly also fed the best in my spinning tool.

I then rolled the twisted wire onto a 2lt soda bottle with an od of 100mm by hand. This was quick but did not come out as neatly as I would have liked. It would be better to make some spooling tool like another post in this thread. I think it should be ok though. I made off the ends of the coils and tested them for continuity. The coils are fine with no short. Unfortunately I do not have a means to measure the inductance of the coils.

I decided on 75 meters as per another post on this thread but used 78 meters to account for the wire shrinking due to winding it up. It ended up a little over 75 meters. The twisted wire only made 184 turns and not 200 as specified. Perhaps because I rolled it a little too thick as the od is slightly over 120mm. I wonder what impact this will have on the circuit?

The only thing I still need is a heat sink for the TO3 transistor and then I can test the circuit. My supplier was out of stock. I am going to build the circuit this week and will hopefully be able to test it soon.

Here are some pics of the tool as well as the completed coil.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on January 26, 2015, 08:16:15 PM
I made a wire winder out of Plexiglas that I had lying around. I mounted the bobbins with the axis vertically to the plane of the disk as suggested by Groundloop because the disc is a little too small to make it practical and I was in a hurry to get going. As I suspected I was going to have some issues with feeding the wire off the bobbins and it was the case so I ended up feeding a meter or two and then winding it up with my battery drill/screwdriver as I was going along. I had the drill set to screwdriver setting. You need to do this whilst concentrating on the tightness of the winds and trying to keep you fingers out the way of the spinning bobbins. The end product, whilst not professional, should work ok.

I did not know what to use and decided to try using the spools solder wire is supplied on. It turns out that 78 meters of 1mm Magnetic wire fills up the spool almost completely. I simply measured off 78 meters of wire and then ran it onto the spool with my drill. I found that the spool I took the most trouble to roll on the wire slowly and neatly also fed the best in my spinning tool.

I then rolled the twisted wire onto a 2lt soda bottle with an od of 100mm by hand. This was quick but did not come out as neatly as I would have liked. It would be better to make some spooling tool like another post in this thread. I think it should be ok though. I made off the ends of the coils and tested them for continuity. The coils are fine with no short. Unfortunately I do not have a means to measure the inductance of the coils.

I decided on 75 meters as per another post on this thread but used 78 meters to account for the wire shrinking due to winding it up. It ended up a little over 75 meters. The twisted wire only made 184 turns and not 200 as specified. Perhaps because I rolled it a little too thick as the od is slightly over 120mm. I wonder what impact this will have on the circuit?

The only thing I still need is a heat sink for the TO3 transistor and then I can test the circuit. My supplier was out of stock. I am going to build the circuit this week and will hopefully be able to test it soon.

Here are some pics of the tool as well as the completed coil.

Mars67,

A very nice build to solve the coil twisting problem. :-)

The circuit is not critical in any way and your 184 turns will do just fine in the circuit.

Looking forward to see you completed circuit.

Regards,
GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on January 29, 2015, 09:39:38 AM
I finished building the circuit on Tuesday and eventually had time to test it last night. Success!!! Here are some pictures of my progress to date.

I then tested it the charger on a 6V battery that just to see if it charges. It is an old battery that will not hold a charge above 5.7 V and will be the first one I am going to test the desulphating process on.

I am using a 15v/3A Lab supply and was surpised to feel that it was getting quite hot after about 15 minutes (the large heatsink at the back was quite hot to the touch even if not hot enough to burn) although I have never actually kept it on for more than a few minutes at a time. The diodes were cold and the transistor barely perceptibly hotter than ambient temperature. The pot was feeling warmer to the touch. Is this normal? I set the voltage to 9V and then adjusted the pot until it was indicating 0.6 Amps and then left it there. I noticed that the voltage gradually increased ever so slightly.

Some other observations that may be useful to someone. I could only buy the magnetic wire by weight so had absolutely no idea how much wire to buy. Three lengths of 1mm/18# wire (77 to 78 * 3 = 234 meters) weighs 1.62 Kilograms (3.56 pounds). At least this can provide a guideline to someone who can only buy the wire by weight.

Another was that when I tied off the ends of the coils I left one side longer than the other for easy identification. I found that the trigger coil had to be connected to the opposite of the other two coils. Is this a rule of thumb?

I did not have a 10W 12 lamp so used two 5 Watt lamps in series.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on January 30, 2015, 03:28:26 AM
I finished building the circuit on Tuesday and eventually had time to test it last night. Success!!! Here are some pictures of my progress to date.

I then tested it the charger on a 6V battery that just to see if it charges. It is an old battery that will not hold a charge above 5.7 V and will be the first one I am going to test the desulphating process on.

I am using a 15v/3A Lab supply and was surpised to feel that it was getting quite hot after about 15 minutes (the large heatsink at the back was quite hot to the touch even if not hot enough to burn) although I have never actually kept it on for more than a few minutes at a time. The diodes were cold and the transistor barely perceptibly hotter than ambient temperature. The pot was feeling warmer to the touch. Is this normal? I set the voltage to 9V and then adjusted the pot until it was indicating 0.6 Amps and then left it there. I noticed that the voltage gradually increased ever so slightly.

Some other observations that may be useful to someone. I could only buy the magnetic wire by weight so had absolutely no idea how much wire to buy. Three lengths of 1mm/18# wire (77 to 78 * 3 = 234 meters) weighs 1.62 Kilograms (3.56 pounds). At least this can provide a guideline to someone who can only buy the wire by weight.

Another was that when I tied off the ends of the coils I left one side longer than the other for easy identification. I found that the trigger coil had to be connected to the opposite of the other two coils. Is this a rule of thumb?

I did not have a 10W 12 lamp so used two 5 Watt lamps in series.

Mars67,

Glad you got the circuit running. :-)

The circuit does make "a lot of noise" on the plus input line. Use a large electrolytic capacitor
over the plus and minus of your lab power supply. This will probably reduce the heating in
the power supply. 1000uF 25 Volt or thereabout.

The pot-meter should not be very warm.
What is the wattage rating on your pot-meter?

0,6 Amp at 9 Volt input is OK. Lots of copper wire in an air-core, yes.
Trigger coil ends is opposite to the power coil ends, is correct.

The 12 Volt lamp is only used to test if there is a output for those that do not have a o-scope.
So two 12 Volt 5 Watt lamps in series or in parallel is OK for testing.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on January 30, 2015, 05:57:52 AM
Thanks for the feedback Groundloop. I asked for a 3.5W pot but I am not sure that it actually is. I picked up a 5W wirewound pot yesterday but did not get time to test it or the large cap over the output of the power supply last night.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on January 30, 2015, 06:21:59 AM
Thanks for the feedback Groundloop. I asked for a 3.5W pot but I am not sure that it actually is. I picked up a 5W wirewound pot yesterday but did not get time to test it or the large cap over the output of the power supply last night.

Mars67,

A 5 Watt wire wound pot-meter is a good choice to use. I did look at the picture you posted
and your first pot-meter looks like a 1/4 Watt type. So use your new 5 Watt pot-meter.

I also did download the manual for your power supply. The manual clearly state that the power supply
will get hot on higher power settings. So I guess that 15 Volt 1 Ampere is a high power setting for this
type of supply. Manual attached.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on February 03, 2015, 08:29:30 AM
I built the circuit on Veroboard and incorporated a 9V regulator. I also placed a 1000uF 25V cap over the output of the Voltage Regulator. I cannot really tell if it made a difference to the temperature of the power supply. The heat sink on the LM 7809 goes up to about 63 Celsius and I also had to place a small heat sink on D5 which goes up to about 55C. I'm not sure if that is too hot but I included a 12v fan which keeps everything nice and cool. The 5W wire wound pot also gets a little warm on the side but stays at that temperature. T1 does not get hot at all.

I am using a 12V 2A Laptop power supply. It seems to work really well.

Another question I have is that there is a high pitched whine coming from T1. It is not always there and is not very loud. The pitch seems to go up as one reduces the current drawn by the circuit i.e. as one increases the resistance on the pot. Is this normal?
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 03, 2015, 09:04:16 AM
I built the circuit on Veroboard and incorporated a 9V regulator. I also placed a 1000uF 25V cap over the output of the Voltage Regulator. I cannot really tell if it made a difference to the temperature of the power supply. The heat sink on the LM 7809 goes up to about 63 Celsius and I also had to place a small heat sink on D5 which goes up to about 55C. I'm not sure if that is too hot but I included a 12v fan which keeps everything nice and cool. The 5W wire wound pot also gets a little warm on the side but stays at that temperature. T1 does not get hot at all.

I am using a 12V 2A Laptop power supply. It seems to work really well.

Another question I have is that there is a high pitched whine coming from T1. It is not always there and is not very loud. The pitch seems to go up as one reduces the current drawn by the circuit i.e. as one increases the resistance on the pot. Is this normal?

Mars67,

First, measure the voltage out of your Laptop power supply. Most laptop power supplies (than I'm aware of) is closer
to 19 Volt output. So if you is drawing close to 1 Ampere through your linear voltage regulator (LM7809) at 19 Volt
input, then you are at the maximum of what that regulator can handle. What is the exact type marking of that regulator
you are using?

It seems to me that too much base bias current is going to your transistor since the pot meter gets hot.
You large 5 Watt wire wound variable resistor should not be hot at all. Please use you Ohm meter and verify what
resistance the pot meter have. Also measure your two resistor values. Are the resistors in parallel or series? Switch
off the power to the circuit before measuring.

D5 should not get hot. I think you are having too much bias current running through the base of your transistor,
thus too much current going through the power coil.

The high pitched whine from the coil is normal.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on February 03, 2015, 02:29:37 PM
Hi Groundloop

Thanks yet again for your input. I am not sure about the connection of the pot as indicated on your circuit diagram. Again please excuse my ignorance. The pot has three connectors. The sweeper is in the middle. At the moment the 50 Ohm Resistor (2 x 100 Ohm 5W resistors connected in parallel) is connected in serial from the one connector on the side of the pot to the sweeper. The sweeper is then connected to L2. Should the two outside connectors i.e. the full 500 Ohms be in serial with the 50 Ohm with the sweeper going to L2? I will measure all the values and get back to you this evening.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on February 03, 2015, 07:04:47 PM
The power supply delivers 12.06V DC. The two large resistors are 100 Ohm 5W connected in parrallel. I checked the value and get 49.5 Ohms. The pot is exactly 500 Ohms.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 03, 2015, 07:13:52 PM
Hi Groundloop

Thanks yet again for your input. I am not sure about the connection of the pot as indicated on your circuit diagram. Again please excuse my ignorance. The pot has three connectors. The sweeper is in the middle. At the moment the 50 Ohm Resistor (2 x 100 Ohm 5W resistors connected in parallel) is connected in serial from the one connector on the side of the pot to the sweeper. The sweeper is then connected to L2. Should the two outside connectors i.e. the full 500 Ohms be in serial with the 50 Ohm with the sweeper going to L2? I will measure all the values and get back to you this evening.

Mars67,

The attached drawing may help you to verify that you have everything connected correct.

What is the type marking on your voltage regulator?

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on February 04, 2015, 06:10:15 AM
Hi GL

Thanks for the schematic. I connected the pot correctly.
The Voltage Regulator is an ST L7809CV (L7809CV GK1AA v6 CHN308)
The Transistor is an BU208A made by ISC
The Cap is rated at 220nF 260V
I could not find the BYV29-500 so was given U1560 Diodes in stead (NFE16G U1560). I did manage to get BYV29-300s but did not try them in the circuit yet.

Your assistance and information is greatly appreciated.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 04, 2015, 06:29:32 AM
Hi GL

Thanks for the schematic. I connected the pot correctly.
The Voltage Regulator is an ST L7809CV (L7809CV GK1AA v6 CHN308)
The Transistor is an BU208A made by ISC
The Cap is rated at 220nF 260V
I could not find the BYV29-500 so was given U1560 Diodes in stead (NFE16G U1560). I did manage to get BYV29-300s.

Your assistance and information is greatly appreciated.

Mars67,

I did download the data sheet for the L7809CV voltage regulator and it's a 1,5 Ampere rated type.
So the regulator will be warm at the current you are using in the circuit. It was right of you to put
the regulator onto a heat sink. The transistor and diodes you are using is alright for the circuit.

There is one test you can do to see if we get rid of the pot-meter heating:

Connect your 12 Volt test bulbs at the output and reverse the wires on the L1 coil.
See if the circuit runs with the L1 coil wires reversed. If the circuit runs and you get
light in the bulbs, try to notice if the circuit current usage went down with the L1
wires swapped. If the circuit does not run then just put the wires back as they where.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on February 04, 2015, 06:38:54 AM
Thanks GL

I will test it this evening when I get home. When I had the circuit built on the bread board it did not run with the L1 wires reversed but will test it anyway on the circuit as built.

Could the way the coils were wound have anything to do with it?
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 04, 2015, 06:54:27 AM
Thanks GL

I will test it this evening when I get home. When I had the circuit built on the bread board it did not run with the L1 wires reversed but will test it anyway on the circuit as built.

Could the way the coils were wound have anything to do with it?

Mars67,

Your coil is very good and professorial made so I do not think there is any problems there.

You should see if you can afford a o-scope. Even a used and older o-scope will do fine for
basic electronics like this. A o-scope will show you the waveforms in the circuit.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on February 04, 2015, 01:57:21 PM
I agree. You can't fix what you can't measure. What Frequency range would be adequate? 10Mhz?
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 04, 2015, 09:19:36 PM
I agree. You can't fix what you can't measure. What Frequency range would be adequate? 10Mhz?

Mars67,

Any o-scope will be better than none. I really can't recommend a type for you, but
if money is a concern then look at eBay and other web sites. There is also many
"made in China" digital o-scopes that can do a OK job at a reasonable prize.

Did you perform the swap L1 wire ends test?

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: gotoluc on February 04, 2015, 10:01:23 PM
Best scope I've used for the money. $148. with delivery

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121446312238

Luc
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: MarkE on February 04, 2015, 10:35:55 PM
Best scope I've used for the money. $148. with delivery

http://www.ebay.com/itm/121446312238

Luc
I recommend spending the extra $20. - $25. and getting the newer model 6052BE with higher bandwidth, faster sample rate, and deeper memory: 

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Hantek-PC-Based-USB-Digital-Storage-Oscilloscope-6052BE-50Mhz-Bandwidth-/221271002722?pt=BI_Oscilloscopes&hash=item3384c78e62
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: gotoluc on February 04, 2015, 11:45:23 PM
Good points MarkE

You can get the 6052BE for $5. less from this seller: http://www.ebay.com/itm/281368543872 (http://www.ebay.com/itm/281368543872)

Luc
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: MarkE on February 05, 2015, 12:10:06 AM
$5. will buy another cheapy probe.

BTW, there is a big difference between the cheapy probes that come with these scopes, are sold on Ebay for under $10. and a $50. probe from ProbeMaster in San Diego.  The cheapy probes use copper core coax that has a low uniform impedance which is actually bad.  The $50. and up expensive probes from ProbeMaster, Tek, Keysight, LeCroy, etc use a fine nichrome resistance wire core.  Where the cores make a big difference is in the probe response to a fast rising edge.  The cheapy probes ring badly whereas the $50. probes do not.  For a 1m cable, the first 15ns - 50ns of a pulse is highly distorted by the probe.  If your signals do not rise faster than about 30ns (~10MHz sinewave) this is not a problem. 
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: gotoluc on February 05, 2015, 12:59:53 AM
More valid points!

Good things most of the stuff we do here is below 10Mhz

Thanks for sharing these good points

Luc
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on February 05, 2015, 06:30:06 AM
Thanks for the great advice guys. I live in South Africa so it is a challenge to buy stuff off e-bay as many suppliers don't ship here and our postal services are so bad that you are very likely to lose any items of perceived value.

As far as the circuit is concerned I reversed L1 and it does not work. I wonder if the layout of my circuit could have anything to do with the heat issues?
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: gotoluc on February 05, 2015, 07:35:31 AM
I stayed in Durban, South Africa for 6 months 2 years ago and ordered some electronics from China through eBay and had no problems.
Try to buy it, the worse that would happen is they would send you your money back. Make sure to use paypal to get payment protection.
So many sellers sell this scope, you should find someone that will ship to South Africa.

Luc
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 05, 2015, 10:09:10 AM
Thanks for the great advice guys. I live in South Africa so it is a challenge to buy stuff off e-bay as many suppliers don't ship here and our postal services are so bad that you are very likely to lose any items of perceived value.

As far as the circuit is concerned I reversed L1 and it does not work. I wonder if the layout of my circuit could have anything to do with the heat issues?

Mars67,

OK. Put the L1 coil back as it where.

What is the type number of your 5 Watt 500 Ohm pot-meter?

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on February 05, 2015, 12:16:11 PM
Hi GL

Unfortunately I do not have the info on me at work. I will post the details as soon as I get home this evening.

Mars
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on February 05, 2015, 08:55:35 PM
The following info appears on the pot. WX-050 500 Ohm.

I had a 5 Amp ammeter connected in serial on the positive wire of the power input into the circuit and adjusted it to 0.6 Amps as in the photos I posted. Today I got a clamp meter and measured the same wire and got over 1 Amp. I then adjusted the pot for the clamp to read 0.6 and now the regulator is much cooler and D5 is not getting hot. The side of the pot is still warm to the touch.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 05, 2015, 10:17:47 PM
The following info appears on the pot. WX-050 500 Ohm.

I had a 5 Amp ammeter connected in serial on the positive wire of the power input into the circuit and adjusted it to 0.6 Amps as in the photos I posted. Today I got a clamp meter and measured the same wire and got over 1 Amp. I then adjusted the pot for the clamp to read 0.6 and now the regulator is much cooler and D5 is not getting hot. The side of the pot is still warm to the touch.

Mars67,

I did check the data sheet for your pot-meter, and did find that it is a 5 Watt type, so no problem there.
So it is a mystery to me why your pot-meter gets warm. I currently have no idea on how to fix that.
Is it possible for you to take a close up photo of your PCB top and bottom and post here?
Also you should check that the capacitor is OK. If the capacitor is leaking DC current to ground,
then that could explain why there is too much current through your pot-meter. Can you put
your ampere meter in series with the pot-meter and measure the current?

GL.

Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on February 09, 2015, 01:10:44 PM
OK so I eventually got some time to measure the currents. With the pot set to where it was when getting quite hot (with the analogue ammeter in serial with the 12v positive input into the circuit) I am measuring 1.03 Amps over the same wire with the DC clamp meter (I don't understand why there is that difference) and it measures 94mA over the pot (ie in serial with the pot). The clamp meter over the same wire measures 43mA.

When I increase the resistance in the Pot to and .60 Amps as indicated by the clamp meter over the 12V input into the circuit I get 36mA through the pot with my multi-meter connected in serial.

Here are some close-up pics of the Veroboard.

Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on February 09, 2015, 08:20:41 PM
I forgot to mention tha I swapped out the 220nF cap with another braand new one and the heating issues remain the same.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 09, 2015, 08:31:39 PM
I forgot to mention tha I swapped out the 220nF cap with another braand new one and the heating issues remain the same.

Mars67,

Thank you for taking time to do the measurements. The clamp meter do measure pulsed DC and your DC ampere meter
measures just current (DC), that is the difference.

I looked at your numbers and can't see that there is any large problems there. The DC bias to the base of the
transistor seems a bit high. One last try, solder your two 100 Ohm resistors in SERIES (instead of parallel) so
that you get 200 Ohm in series with the pot-meter. Connect your test bulb to the output and give it a try.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on February 11, 2015, 06:18:15 AM
Hi GL

Unfortunately I did not have time to change the circuit last night but what I did was to undo one resistor. With 100 Ohms I must open the pot fully to get 500mA current draw from the circuit. i.e. with the ammeter in serial with the 12v input into the circuit.
This is with the circuit connected to a 100Ah Deep Cycle battery I am trying to recover. It was not possible to say if D5 or the pot got hot because the 100 Ohm resistor got very hot very quickly. I will change the circuit this evening and see what happens. Thank you again for all the help and information.

Marnus
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 11, 2015, 03:49:12 PM
Hi GL

Unfortunately I did not have time to change the circuit last night but what I did was to undo one resistor. With 100 Ohms I must open the pot fully to get 500mA current draw from the circuit. i.e. with the ammeter in serial with the 12v input into the circuit.
This is with the circuit connected to a 100Ah Deep Cycle battery I am trying to recover. It was not possible to say if D5 or the pot got hot because the 100 Ohm resistor got very hot very quickly. I will change the circuit this evening and see what happens. Thank you again for all the help and information.

Marnus

Mars67,

It looks like you have a lot of bias current and almost no pulsed current from the L1 coil.
So something is not right in your circuit. Do you have a close up photo of the 220nF capacitor
you are using? Try a larger capacitor 470nF or something like that. Also double check that
your circuit is soldered correctly.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on February 11, 2015, 07:45:40 PM
Just to add. I put the two 100 Ohm resistors in serial. With the pot fully open the circuit draws 150mAmps. It does not seem as if the other components are getting hot but the two resistors went up to 120 Degrees F and stays there.

I will check the circuit closely to see if there are any issues.

The charger does seem to work as the battery could only hold a charge of 1.2 Volts but can hold a charge of 10.5 Volts after about two weeks.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 11, 2015, 11:53:28 PM
Just to add. I put the two 100 Ohm resistors in serial. With the pot fully open the circuit draws 150mAmps. It does not seem as if the other components are getting hot but the two resistors went up to 120 Degrees F and stays there.

I will check the circuit closely to see if there are any issues.

The charger does seem to work as the battery could only hold a charge of 1.2 Volts but can hold a charge of 10.5 Volts after about two weeks.

Mars67,

You can use resistors with higher wattage ratings. Wire wound resistors is OK to use in this circuit.
Keep charging on your sulfated battery until you get over 12 volt. Then discharge battery (with your bulbs)
down to approx. 12 Volt. Re-charge and repeat. Also check the water level in the battery and add distilled
water if low.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on February 12, 2015, 05:42:15 AM
Hi GL
The Capacitor I was using before was rated 220nF 250V. the one I am currently using is an Alcon KPF-9 0.22uF/2000VDC K/CD.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on February 13, 2015, 07:53:04 AM
Well I checked the circuit very critically and cannot find any glaring errors. What I decided to do was to build another circuit to see if I get a different result. This time I used TinyCAD to draw the circuit and then used a licensed version of VeeCAD to transfer the design onto veroboard and then built the circuit last night. I used the BYV29-300 Diodes that I also got and a 56 Ohm 5W resistor. the rest of the components are the same. I did not integrate the voltage regulator onto the same board and used my lab ps to power the circuit.

The great news is that the circuit worked the first time. I used two 6V 4A batteries that are quite old as a load and tested the circuit. I got the same result. D5 gets hot, R1 gets hot and the pot gets hot. I am really beginning to wonder what is going on here. I know some electronic engineers with very fancy oscilloscopes. I am going to ask them to help me do some measurements.

Any advice on what I need to measure where would be very welcome.

Here are some pics of the circuit. At least the actual circuit is much cleaner. Any comments would be appreciated.

Thank you
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 13, 2015, 03:36:51 PM
Well I checked the circuit very critically and cannot find any glaring errors. What I decided to do was to build another circuit to see if I get a different result. This time I used TinyCAD to draw the circuit and then used a licensed version of VeeCAD to transfer the design onto veroboard and then built the circuit last night. I used the BYV29-300 Diodes that I also got and a 56 Ohm 5W resistor. the rest of the components are the same. I did not integrate the voltage regulator onto the same board and used my lab ps to power the circuit.

The great news is that the circuit worked the first time. I used two 6V 4A batteries that are quite old as a load and tested the circuit. I got the same result. D5 gets hot, R1 gets hot and the pot gets hot. I am really beginning to wonder what is going on here. I know some electronic engineers with very fancy oscilloscopes. I am going to ask them to help me do some measurements.

Any advice on what I need to measure where would be very welcome.

Here are some pics of the circuit. At least the actual circuit is much cleaner. Any comments would be appreciated.

Thank you

Mars67,

You did a very clean and nice build.

If the components gets hot, but not smoking hot, and the circuits can be run for hours
without failing, then just use the circuit. Put it into a nice plastic box and use a fan
for cooling.

GL.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on February 20, 2015, 06:48:23 AM
Thanks Groundloop.
Two things have happened. The 5W pot on the original circuit was damaged (burnt?) at the position where the circuit draws 0.6 Amps. I am assuming this because trying to set it to a current draw of 0.6 it either jumps to 0.4 or 0.8. I have not yet tried a 0.47uF Capacitor but will try it on the original circuit this weekend.

The second is that I have managed to get a used analogue oscilloscope. So the learning curve has suddenly steepened somewhat for me.

It is a Pintek PS-605 60MHz dual trace oscilloscope. I am sure that it will be more than adequate for my purposes. It has a really cool function where you can test different components such as resistors, capacitors, diodes and transistors. I am busy studying the manual and have managed to take some measurements on the second circuit that I built last night. If my calculations are correct the circuit oscillates at 11.9 KHz. (the wave length is 4.2 divisions at a time/div setting of 0.2uS) It was interesting to see that the waveform on the "positive" side of L1 and one of the outputs of L3 looks very similar except that L3 is more "noisy". 

The peak to peak voltage on the positive of L1 (again assuming that my maths/understanding has not failed me) is 40V. (4 Divisions at a setting of volt/div setting of 1V and the probe at 10x gives me 40V)

The Voltage on L3 (L1 and L3 are connected the same way and L2 is reversed) Taken at the same side as L1 looks the same and the frequency appears to be exactly the same. The voltage there is also about 40V.

Does this seem correct?

Here are pics of the two waveforms I am talking about. The second one is L3.

Thanks
Marnus
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 21, 2015, 01:25:52 AM
Thanks Groundloop.
Two things have happened. The 5W pot on the original circuit was damaged (burnt?) at the position where the circuit draws 0.6 Amps. I am assuming this because trying to set it to a current draw of 0.6 it either jumps to 0.4 or 0.8. I have not yet tried a 0.47uF Capacitor but will try it on the original circuit this weekend.

The second is that I have managed to get a used analogue oscilloscope. So the learning curve has suddenly steepened somewhat for me.

It is a Pintek PS-605 60MHz dual trace oscilloscope. I am sure that it will be more than adequate for my purposes. It has a really cool function where you can test different components such as resistors, capacitors, diodes and transistors. I am busy studying the manual and have managed to take some measurements on the second circuit that I built last night. If my calculations are correct the circuit oscillates at 11.9 KHz. (the wave length is 4.2 divisions at a time/div setting of 0.2uS) It was interesting to see that the waveform on the "positive" side of L1 and one of the outputs of L3 looks very similar except that L3 is more "noisy". 

The peak to peak voltage on the positive of L1 (again assuming that my maths/understanding has not failed me) is 40V. (4 Divisions at a setting of volt/div setting of 1V and the probe at 10x gives me 40V)

The Voltage on L3 (L1 and L3 are connected the same way and L2 is reversed) Taken at the same side as L1 looks the same and the frequency appears to be exactly the same. The voltage there is also about 40V.

Does this seem correct?

Here are pics of the two waveforms I am talking about. The second one is L3.

Thanks
Marnus

Marnus,

You have way to much DC bias current going to the base of your transistor. Solution is to increase the series resistor value
to approx. 150 to 200 Ohm.

Congratulations with your new o-scope. A two channel 60MHz o-scope is OK to have in a hobby electronic environment.

Use the minus rail as o-scope ground (where the transistor emitter is) and measure at the base of the transistor and
also at the collector of the transistor. Use the DC setting on your o-scope to see the DC offset. Probe to X10 and scope
voltage input at highest setting at start-up.

Alex.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on February 23, 2015, 06:36:35 AM
Hi Alex

Thank you very much for your patience and persistence. I will post the measurementss here when I get home this afternoon.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on February 24, 2015, 08:58:15 AM
OK so I played around with some different capacitors to see what impact they have on the circuit. I did not also get time to see what different resistors would do and I will see if I get time to check this evening. I took the DC measurements on the base and collector of the Transistor. With the original circuit I built using the 220nF Capacitor I measured a voltage average of 5.3V (the spikes differ in amplitude so I took the highest and lowest and averaged it) and the frequency of the circuit there is 4.26 KHz. On the collector the voltage is 35V and the frequency 4.3 KHz. I am attaching the two wave forms for the 220nF Capacitor only. The current I measured on the base is 0.485 A (with the circuit set to draw 0.6A from the ps)
 
Using a 330nF capacitor the values are Collector 5.5V, 1.01 KHz - Base  35V, 1.01KHz - Base current 0.425A (0.6A)
470nF Capacitor - Collector 5.7V, 2.04KHz - Base 36V, 2.04KHz - Base Current 0.425A (0.6A)


Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 24, 2015, 03:05:54 PM
OK so I played around with some different capacitors to see what impact they have on the circuit. I did not also get time to see what different resistors would do and I will see if I get time to check this evening. I took the DC measurements on the base and collector of the Transistor. With the original circuit I built using the 220nF Capacitor I measured a voltage average of 5.3V (the spikes differ in amplitude so I took the highest and lowest and averaged it) and the frequency of the circuit there is 4.26 KHz. On the collector the voltage is 35V and the frequency 4.3 KHz. I am attaching the two wave forms for the 220nF Capacitor only. The current I measured on the base is 0.485 A (with the circuit set to draw 0.6A from the ps)
 
Using a 330nF capacitor the values are Collector 5.5V, 1.01 KHz - Base  35V, 1.01KHz - Base current 0.425A (0.6A)
470nF Capacitor - Collector 5.7V, 2.04KHz - Base 36V, 2.04KHz - Base Current 0.425A (0.6A)

Marnus,

If you run the circuit with a input of 9 Volt and the pot-meter is turned down to approx. zero Ohm, then the
maximum DC base current to the transistor should be 9/50 = 0,18 Ampere. When the pot-meter is turned
to maximum (500 Ohm) then the maximum DC base current should be 0,016 Ampere. So your measurement
of 0.425A base current can not be real or something is wrong. The pulses you measured from base to emitter
also looks wrong. Is the zero line on the o-scope at 0% or at the middle of the screen? For me it looks like you
are running the circuit with the base and emitter of the transistor swapped the wrong way? Have you
checked that? There should not be any large negative voltage spike on the base of the transistor because
the 1N4007 diode should remove any negative pulse voltage here. You should also disconnect the coils
and use a Ohm meter to check that it is NO short circuit between the three insulated coils.

Alex.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on February 26, 2015, 01:28:57 PM
Hi GL

I double checked and the transistor is definitely connected correctly. Looking at the bottom of the transistor with the pins above the mid line then pin 1 is on the left and that is the Base and pin 2, the emitter is on the right. The case of the Transistor is the collector. The emitter is the one connected to the common ground. I have quite an expensive clamp ammeter so I do not really have a reason to doubt its accuracy. Perhaps I am getting over reads due to the close proximity of the other wires although I made sure to get the correct wire in the clamp.

The previous wave forms posted I adjusted the vertical axis to be able to see the waveform properly. I am attaching the waveforms with the line on 0%. The waveform over the base/emitter is the first pic and the collector/emitter is the second pic. I am going to replace the 1N4007 diode this evening to see if there is anything wrong.

I checked the coils for a short again last night and did not find any. Both using a continuity tester on my multi meter as well as using the component testing mode of the oscope. It has a facility to indicate a short and I found nothing. I did get an AC current measurement on the base of 0.07 Amps with the pot open about two thirds (i.e. lower resistance)
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on February 26, 2015, 11:07:21 PM
Hi GL

I double checked and the transistor is definitely connected correctly. Looking at the bottom of the transistor with the pins above the mid line then pin 1 is on the left and that is the Base and pin 2, the emitter is on the right. The case of the Transistor is the collector. The emitter is the one connected to the common ground. I have quite an expensive clamp ammeter so I do not really have a reason to doubt its accuracy. Perhaps I am getting over reads due to the close proximity of the other wires although I made sure to get the correct wire in the clamp.

The previous wave forms posted I adjusted the vertical axis to be able to see the waveform properly. I am attaching the waveforms with the line on 0%. The waveform over the base/emitter is the first pic and the collector/emitter is the second pic. I am going to replace the 1N4007 diode this evening to see if there is anything wrong.

I checked the coils for a short again last night and did not find any. Both using a continuity tester on my multi meter as well as using the component testing mode of the oscope. It has a facility to indicate a short and I found nothing. I did get an AC current measurement on the base of 0.07 Amps with the pot open about two thirds (i.e. lower resistance)

Marnus,

Please do a test, replace the pot-meter with a fixed resistor of 10K. Swap the L1 coil wires around.
O-scope the base on the transistor with o-scope ground to the emitter. Put your analog DC ampere
meter in series with the base and close to the transistor.

Alex.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: lzbin80 on February 27, 2015, 05:07:49 PM
Check out my new YouTube video

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=abJuStUv4K8 (http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=abJuStUv4K8)

It shows what happens when you condition a "DEAD" car battery with a tiny Bedini coil.

The battery is a 12volt 60Ah Varta Blue.

Most points are explained in the video, (I think)

I hope you enjoy it

Bourne

The voltage jumping around may indicate that the battery cannot take in charges that fast. it may also indicate venting and fully charged already.

By keep refilling electrolyte/distilled water for the venting, you can successfully recover and venting a battery at the same time.

John Bedini charge and discharge his battery during his recovery process.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on March 02, 2015, 02:05:52 PM
Hi Alex

I set up the circuit exactly like you requested (50 Ohm and 10K fixed resistor, 200nF Cap). If I swop the wires of L1 around the circuit does not oscillate at all. If I swap back the L1 wires I get the following measurements on the oscope. Base/Emitter voltage with the oscope zeroed. The total amplitude = 2 Volts (1 Volts positive?) and the frequency is 8.3KHz.

The Collector/Emitter figures are 22V and 8.3KHz.

I got an analogue ammeter that reads up to a maximum of 1 Amp for a finer scale and the current on the base indicates .04Amps.

Here are the waveforms. Base first and then Collector
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Groundloop on March 02, 2015, 02:56:26 PM
Hi Alex

I set up the circuit exactly like you requested (50 Ohm and 10K fixed resistor, 200nF Cap). If I swop the wires of L1 around the circuit does not oscillate at all. If I swap back the L1 wires I get the following measurements on the oscope. Base/Emitter voltage with the oscope zeroed. The total amplitude = 2 Volts (1 Volts positive?) and the frequency is 8.3KHz.

The Collector/Emitter figures are 22V and 8.3KHz.

I got an analogue ammeter that reads up to a maximum of 1 Amp for a finer scale and the current on the base indicates .04Amps.

Here are the waveforms. Base first and then Collector

Marnus,

Thank you for taking time to do the test. OK, now everything looks as it should be.
So the main reason for the pot-meter warm up was the large DC base current.
You need to use a higher value for the 50 Ohm resistor. I recommend around 100 to
200 Ohm. The resistors should be 5 Watt rated. The wire wound pot-meter should
be approx. 1K and at least 5 Watt for the coils you made.

The strange pause in your pulses (when run normally) is to the fact that the
circuit is using more current than your power supply can provide. So you need
a power supply that can deliver at least 2 - 3 Ampere at 9 Volt. A large electrolytic
capacitor (2200uF 35V) close to your circuit input between plus and minus may also help.

It may also help to use a faster diode than the 1N4007. If you have more of the BYV29
diode, use that instead.

Alex.

Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: Mars67 on March 02, 2015, 03:01:12 PM
That is great news thanks Alex. Thank you very much for your help. I will change the circuit as advised and post the results back here.
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: eklogite on July 29, 2015, 09:20:45 PM
First, Hello to great forum and great people...

Dear GL,
I have read all the thread about your circuits, batteries and suggestions.
I have a few questions that you may help me.

I have 4 SLA 100AH batteries which are heavily sulphated, cells are also dried.
I opened first battery caps and added distilled water up to cover the cells...
I can see thick 4-5 mm white lead sulphate crystalls on plates using a flashlight.
The batteries accept charge and I charge them with a 10A PWM solar charge controller with a 80W panel made myself.
The battery accepts charge and the actual capacity is ~5AH. Voltage is 13.25- 13.35 at full charged state.

I want to use the charger circuit you posted in page 7.
Since 100AH battery capacity makes a very high current, don't you think the coil L2 may heat up and burn ?
When going to start, should the battery be discharged or partially charged?
I have a 12V 1A switching power supply to use for this propose, is it a good choice?
What resistor do you suggest ??
I have also trouble finding the components here, does 2n3055 transistor preform okay ???

Thank you very much,
Eklogite
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: eklogite on August 01, 2015, 10:23:22 AM
Hi there,
I have built the circuit in page 7, it is working fine but there is a small problem.
The current that the charger puts on the battery is only 50-60 mAh !
The battery voltage is going up very slowly.
I were unable to find the suitable core and used a 10mm drill bit instead of the ferrite rod core.
I am now charging the 100Ah battery, will post the results after my first cycle.
Power supply is 11.5V 3Ah

Thanks again.
Eklogite
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: ViKARLL on October 12, 2015, 07:42:41 PM
Hi Alex,

I have read this long thread and your detailed replies given with immense patience. 

I have a few questions before I get started to build this interesting circuit. My apologies if I happen to ask a question to which you have already replied in the past.

I have acquired the BU 2508AX transistor, the 470R 5W resister and the cap 220nF 250V. I was stuck with the Ferrite rod since they are no longer available in my country. But I have managed to source out the following;

1) A Ferrite rod removed from an old AM radio - Diameter 8mm and length 80mm (it is sort of oval, not round!)
2) Another Ferrite rod I managed to grind out from a TV Fly-back transformer core - Diameter 14mm and length 20mm.

Which one is better and what changes should I do to the number of turns and the gauge of winding wire?

My batteries are in the range of 6V 90Ah to 12V 65Ah.
 
Thanking you in advance for your kind reply,

Cheers,

ViKARLL

 
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: ViKARLL on October 21, 2015, 11:06:22 AM
Hi Alex,

Any luck with the information I requested?

Thank you,

ViKARLL
Title: Re: 12V 60A car battery , maybe dead?
Post by: ourbobby on June 15, 2016, 09:05:55 AM
To Groundloop,
                       Hello, I know it is possible that you have discontinued replying to this very interesting thread. However, you might chance upon it again. My question is this. what is the maximum voltage the original circuit you proposed with the trifilar coil will raise the 12volt battery to? As I believe that the voltage of 15.5v on another forum has been suggested for a continuous use of the Lead Acid battery by allowing a complete conditioning of the plates, when charging the battery at the higher voltage, thus giving the battery an extensive longer life. Will it be possible to rise to this voltage without boiling the batteries with your charger?

I look forward to you passing by this thread again and replying to my post.

Thank you