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Solid States Devices => solid state devices => Topic started by: allcanadian on February 05, 2008, 12:09:41 AM

Title: Tesla Resonance
Post by: allcanadian on February 05, 2008, 12:09:41 AM
At the following link ---- http://www.eskimo.com/~billb/tesla/biog.txt ---- Tesla describes how as a child he and some friends rolled small snowballs down a moutainside and one had reached the size of a house which facinated him that so feeble an action could lead to an avalanche of energy. He also mentioned that like so many people we take the power of observation for granted. So lets explore the simple snowball effect, I find it very interesting that physics has no description for Teslas snowball   we can describe the work performed (F x D) when a snowball is dropped or rolls down a gradient --- the vertical drop is distance and gravity the force, but there is no calculation, no equation that describes the inherent qualities or properties needed to produce a magnification of force and energy as in the case of the snowball. In the case of the snowball we could say it does nothing other than start a reaction, what is most important in this case is the qualities of the media involved, that is the snow must be sticky enough to adhere and fluffy enough to pack as the snowball rolls to withstand centrifugal forces trying to tear it apart. So we can say the qualities and conditions must be "perfect" to produce this "snowball" effect, we could also say the initial energy input has literally no bearing on the resultant energy output. I think this avalanche effect in electrical terms must be resonance with external forces, I have seen resonance in action and can tell you it is pretty wild. I used a 1.5v battery and rheostat to power a micro toothbrush motor on a two foot long 1/8th inch metal rod attached to a vice on my bench. A super small vibration leading to a larger one in the rod and my 3' x 8' bench was making a loud noise and all my tools were moving all over the place, small nuts and bolts dancing 1/16th inch off the bench. Physics cannot explain this, take all the energy involved in the movement and noise in this example and compare that to the few milliamps needed to produce it and it becomes pretty obvious something is out of place.
In any case I found the link above a pretty intersting read  :)
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: allcanadian on February 05, 2008, 12:13:57 AM
I wonder if Tesla left us a clue in regards to his snowball scenario in my last post? Did you make the connection? I was a little slow on the draw as usual, it took me 20 minutes of analogies to get this.
We have a snowball which physics says will perform work in a gradient ( the mountain side )based on----, Work = Force x Distance, the Force being (Mass x acceleration) the acceleration is gravity. But physics has never considered the "snowball" effect or "avalanche" effect as it relates to nature, when qualities and conditions are correct the snowball will gain a massive amount of energy based on a gain in MASS, acceleration due to gravity is constant, it supplies the energy to the ever growing mass of snow. The "connection" is resonance, consider a mass (tuning fork) that is vibrating, it could be considered a single entity until many resonant tuning forks are brought close to it. At that point all the tuning forks could be considered as acting in unison, they could also be considered as a very much larger MASS vibrating at the same rate---all as one--- all reinforcing one another. The "resonant" system has gained MASS in motion and in doing so the force has increased as well as the ability to do work. The original tuning fork does not need to furnish all the energy so we could say resonance is a magnifying effect but it depends on the "amount" of mass in resonance. The qualities and conditions of each individual mass determine how close to pure resonance each element is in respect to the whole--- the greater mass in resonance acting as one.
Yet another reason why Tesla ROCKS!!
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: armagdn03 on February 05, 2008, 01:42:32 AM
at this rate, someone is going to have a free energy device in no time.
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: jeanna on February 05, 2008, 03:06:28 AM
And so a skater starts a spin. The arms are out then he begins to pull them in and spins faster and faster as the arms get closer to the center.
And so Tesla's coils taper and the radius gets smaller and smaller the speed of the frequency gets higher and higher as it approaches the top.
And a tornado / torsion field is always more powerful at the narrower end....
And a sine wave in 3 dimensions gets rounder and fatter then narrower and finally gets to a point in time (a 4th dimension) then begins again
wild thoughts, sorry for the intrusion.  :D
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: Ren on February 10, 2008, 02:41:10 AM
Awesome analogy AC! There you go again, making me think :o :D
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: esaruoho on February 10, 2008, 02:50:35 AM
wouldnt that skater be then  doing  center-seeking movement, i.e. centripetal  moving-inwards movement?
self-organization would seem to insist that this'd result in an increasingly accelerated  movement. or something.
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: BEP on February 10, 2008, 03:39:37 AM
All good thoughts folks.

The hurdle that folks can't seem to jump is that resonance is not a two dimensional thing. Certainly 3 and most likely 4. All they see is that little squiggle on the scope. They measure the volts and the amps but seldom look at the flux because they 'know' what it will be.

It isn't just a spring moving up and down. It is a spring moving up and down and around and whichever else direction.
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: esaruoho on February 10, 2008, 03:56:36 AM
yeah it would appear that we are trying to come to grips with at least a x y & radial  setup. russell draws about the wave  extensively.

but in other places, i came across this and found it nice
(http://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio/handbook/Graphics/Simple_Harmonic.gif)
having never seen anyone describe a sinewave as a 360degree sphere, i was interested. this is the second time i come across this.

the fact that our oscilloscopes only show  a couple of things doesnt really help with tracking down  pulsed spikes or electrostatic discharges or wotever it is that people are doing. i'd like to take an oscilloscope and look at the line from behind the line. so instead of ---/\/---- it would look like .  and that would get larger according to the phase, panning etc of the field.
if we could see electricity via modified oscilloscopes, all these FWBR/phase/reactive power  etc  resonance based pulsation based stuff would come into full focus.
if only.
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: BEP on February 10, 2008, 04:24:05 AM
The sad part is that a fairly good tech could make it appear 3-D on almost any scope. But it would still be missing things, I'm sure.

Showing it as a circle is the first step in learning how a wave works - for anybody.
Now showing it as a sphere? That would be too close to reality.
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: esaruoho on February 10, 2008, 04:31:28 AM
how would you go about doing that? if i had to choose i'd get an analog oscilloscope, not one o fthose fiddly usb digital ones. i dont suppose you'd make it 3d by running it through an 3d engine now would you?
what kind of fairly good tech are you talking about, please? not a hardware-software combination, i take it?

I'll have to fish out some russell wave sphere drawings. another guy who spent much time in wave motion was Dr t.j.j. See.
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: jeanna on February 10, 2008, 05:54:36 AM
It would probably be like someone at Industrial Light & Magic
 
It would help a lot,

How do you describe it, BEP? Can you make a word picture for resonance? I mean the wave appearance of resonance?

jeanna
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: BEP on February 10, 2008, 03:52:03 PM
No computers or programs needed. Just make use of the 'other' jacks on the back of the scope. Some circuitry may be required.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dl507zEkxD0

They wouldn't let us have TV in 'the tomb'. We could pickup any EM signal from almost anywhere. After a while it only took a few minutes to get the networks downlink and display it on a scope. Not pretty but entertaining.

I'm sure it is much better now with scopes running windblows  ;D
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: jeanna on February 10, 2008, 07:04:06 PM
Erfinder please do not remove the part about Chladni. Everyone should know about him.
I saw in a related video which had a url of
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1eNjUgaB-g&feature=related (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1eNjUgaB-g&feature=related) some waveforms that look like many of Chladni's forms.
Quote
They wouldn't let us have TV in 'the tomb'. We could pickup any EM signal from almost anywhere. After a while it only took a few minutes to get the networks downlink and display it on a scope. Not pretty but entertaining
BEP what does this mean esp. 'in the tomb'?

Thanks for that link. I saw some forms I was trying to describe. especially the torsion field shape that never resolved back down to zero to look like a sinewave. But it turned around at its peak and returned to the original start point.

I have been thinking about these forms for many years.

Thing is if you look at a wave from the far right end of the x axis straight up the x line, I think you see a sound wave moving outward forever. I see nothing to make it return to the x line. The circle of russell, explains what folks are trying to say, but is it what is really happening?

What if the form goes out from x=0,y=0,z=0 but then hits something (?) that makes it return to  (x=0.y-0,z=0) and on its way back it makes a mirror of the original waveform only in reverse which is what makes it look like a plain sinewave. I am not sure what the mirror needs to look like for the wave to not cancel itself on returning. Maybe just the mass of air or gases would define this and encourage the return.

hmmmm

jeanna
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: Localjoe on February 10, 2008, 07:20:09 PM
Hey Folks,

I dont know how many of you are familiar with linux source packages or compiling but if those words are exciting to you and dont scare you this link may be worth your while , heres the description

qliss3d renders 3d-Lissajous-figures (figures made of a different sine functions for each dimension) with a Qt interface. You can look at the figures from any viewing position you like and even "listen" to the sound of the figures.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/qliss3d/ (http://sourceforge.net/projects/qliss3d/)  Seemed to be a good addition to the scope dicussion  :)
                                                                                                                                     Joe

PS if you can take the music this one is real Cool this guy has applied textures to the wave forms somehow at the end but another great demo http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1eNjUgaB-g&NR=1 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1eNjUgaB-g&NR=1)
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: BEP on February 12, 2008, 02:06:26 PM
Erfinder says scopes are a waste. I agree, in most cases.

A scope is very limiting at even the best application when it comes to harmonic resonance. The fancy displays are great but they can be the result of not only how you perceive them but also how they are connected.

So, if you don't understand what you are looking for you probably never will connect the scope correctly.
In any case, a scope shot is just a 'slice' of any view. Most folks use it to get a 'flatlander's' view of a 3-D world. Now when you consider more than 3 dimensions - what are we really looking at?

A scope is a great tool - but it is just a tool. It is there to help you visualize not visualize for you.

The tomb is a reference to a past job that had no windows or EM eminations.

To better show what I mean by your perceptions of what you see being important - view the graphic showing electric vectors.

When viewing a circle or rotation in time the scope will show it as a sine wave. All you see are the straight or vector parts of the wave - re: the straight lines on the graphic. If you have two such signals, in the same wire or other medium, you have two circles. If they are rotating the same direction and the same speed they are in-phase with each other. If then one is faster than the other it is leading and out of phase. What will this cause? A relative motion.

It is far more fun when the two are travelling different directions and even different speeds. If you see only what is on the scope you may only see a wave that has three bumps on the rise and three similar bumps on the fall of the wave. Depending upon how you are connected that ugly wave may be proof of a dual-vortex with opposite rotation per end and highest energy density in the physical center.

It is best to grab some scope usage literature and experiment so you'll know what you see when it is displayed.

Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: Localjoe on February 12, 2008, 05:44:25 PM
@Bep

How did that guy that crack the code for the song, you think he sat around with a freq gen speaker and  and some water?
                                                                                                       Joe
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: BEP on February 13, 2008, 03:38:49 AM
@Bep

How did that guy that crack the code for the song, you think he sat around with a freq gen speaker and  and some water?
                                                                                                       Joe

 ???

I'm not sure what you're talking about. If it is the one I'm thinking of then he cracked it in a dream and it scared him awake.
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: Localjoe on February 13, 2008, 07:17:15 PM
The church with the .. tiles in the celing that were all cymatic impressions something like 40 that coorliated to musical notes and was a special song something religious i'll look it up but the timeframe when it was built is amazing .
                                                                                                Joe
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: Localjoe on February 13, 2008, 07:44:05 PM
@Bep... i re read this whole shit... and someting elese popped out at me

heres the stuff http://www.foar.net/2007/05/rosslyn_chapel_motet_1.html (http://www.foar.net/2007/05/rosslyn_chapel_motet_1.html)  here's the clincher

3. Thomas and Stuart used this metal plate to recreate the ancient method of making notes. The plate is vibrated and sand poured on until it forms a particular pattern - indicating the correct pitch. The patterns match those carved into the arches of Rosslyn Chapel.


Basically we have calculated the frequencies of the 3 notes that the stave angel is pointing out and it amounts to this;
At (ancient tunings)

A = 432

B = 488

C = 512

--------
1,432
How they did this
HOW THEY DID IT..

1 Carved angels and blocks above their head in arches of chapel baffled Thomas until he realised this one was holding a musical stave - and that the blocks signified notes.

2 Using this specially enhanced photo, Thomas and Stuart worked out that the carvings above the angel represent A, B and C.

3 Thomas and Stuart used this metal plate to recreate the ancient method of making notes. The plate is vibrated and sand poured on until it forms a particular pattern - indicating the correct pitch. The patterns match those carved into the arches of Rosslyn Chapel.




Something that should not be passed over is this.. A432 was ingraved in rock everywhere for a reason.. we will never get the results we want using the a440 scale of modern.  Even tho our major chords sound kind of pretty cause weve herd them taht way our whole lives .. theres many more overtones that become presesent when 432 is used.. find an old vesion of the Lycramosa i think its bach and you'll get chills from the one with the choir in a 432 yet the newer versions when they change the pitch to 440 slandered sounds nice and eire but no chills...

EDIT:  More info sepearte source
So, Dr. Jenny?s research puts the final word in on the importance of the
geometric shapes in the sphere, in case we doubted their relation to the
Octaves of color (i.e. visible light) and sound. The ratios of phi and the square
root of 2 are also responsible for the difference between the various tones in
the Octave, when measured as values of vibration in cycles per second. You
can take one note in the Octave and compare it to the note next to it, and the
two notes will always relate by one of these simple ?spiraling? ratios.

Therefore, we can now see that even though it seems strange at first, every
sound truly has a three-dimensional, geometric component. The same would
be true for every color. Some people, including this author, have been able to
perceive this connection automatically in mystical states of consciousness,
without necessarily understanding the vision. Many people who have had
these visions send us email with great relief that they have finally understood
why they were seeing such formations in their mind?s eye
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: barbosi on February 13, 2008, 08:55:04 PM
Interesting topic, however I have a ridiculously simple question (which I guess was also the foundation of AC's original inquiry).

What is Resonance?

As W. Russell never explained anything using fancy mathematical formulas, I am curious in layman's terms how would you describe the mechanism?

Thanks.
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: allcanadian on February 15, 2008, 06:57:26 PM
@barbosi
It's funny how things can get so decidedly off topic in such a short period of time, I can only image what we could accomplish when putting all our thoughts into one subject.
I see you are a fan of Russell, I have read "the secret of light" and found myself way in over my head  ;D. On resonance, I would consider it as two systems having the same rate of oscillation, and a lower form of resonance having a whole number harmonic thereof. Of course I am speaking of "natural" resonance not forced resonance as we so often confuse the two. I think the single biggest mistake we have made is not recognizing the effects of attenuation or dampening effects in our primary oscillators, that is presuming the primary oscillator could do work without effect on the source. The equivalent would be to attach a mechanism to a tuning fork to extract work and expect there to be no "reaction" on that tuning fork. But if a tuning fork were to be struck at the appropriate interval corresponding to its natural resonant frequency and work only extracted from additional tuning forks then it is a different story. We should understand that the work extracted from these extra tuning forks cannot effect there natural frequency either, the work must come from the beat note between the two extracted at the base of the tuning fork as a large force over a small distance, in this way the "reaction" of work being extracted can coincide with the source acting on it.
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: BEP on February 15, 2008, 11:37:39 PM
My understanding of resonance....

Jeez.... I just filled this screen with established descriptions and none of it made sense.

The important thing to remember is that resonance is not just a wave and a wire working together as one system. Resonance is also more than one system working with another system. It is quite possible for an oscillator to vary in frequency because it is being influenced by another oscillation or many other oscillations.
It is possible for a series of oscillators to 'chase each others tails' so to speak. Some oscillators are more prone to this than others.

The only thing I can say is study up on resonance, anti-resonance and entrainment. Or just listen to some 'singing-bowl' music or read up on Chladni's patterns.

there was a youtube deal showing Chladni's patterns being generated.
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: barbosi on February 16, 2008, 06:01:06 PM
Here are my thoughts.

Resonance is the instance when two or more systems, seemingly unrelated present themselves acting as one. This is possible only when rhythmic balanced interchange occurs between them.

An obvious example is jumping on trampoline. Think about the rhythmic interchange between the person and the trampoline and don't forget that nothing would happen if both would not pass through the "balance" point.

Another example is when we pinch just one piano string, lets say "middle C" (or "Do" for non-american notation). All other "C" strings will start to vibrate. You may reply "what about the frame and all other wooden structure, the air contained in the box?" You are right and all seemingly separate systems act as one.

About tuning forks, the same. Strike one and the second one placed in the vicinity will start vibrate at the same rate (if both forks are identical). I don't recall where I read, but there was described the same experiment, where each fork or both were placed inside of chambers under high vacuum. The sympathetic vibration occurred.

@allcanadian related to the snow ball experiment, I have nothing eloquent to say but it struck me the similarity with Fig.71 - The universal nine octave cycle, at page 263 in "The secret of light".

PS: As I am sure many of you may have lots of examples, many may have counter-examples. I would be happy to hear about what you think.
Title: Re: Tesla Resonance
Post by: allcanadian on February 17, 2008, 09:40:46 AM
@barbosi
Rhythmic balanced interchange, now there is an interesting concept :)
Rythmic: change over a period of time
Balanced: Symetrical forces, unity
Interchange: one becomes the other, through the other
I would agree this is resonance on the most fundamental level and we are given many examples in nature if we choose to take notice of them. The problem as always is the practical application of this process to produce tangible results ie... heating my damn house this winter ;D