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Author Topic: Thane Heins Perepiteia.  (Read 1822202 times)

Offline Groundloop

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #60 on: February 06, 2008, 11:21:02 PM »
@All,

Just want to say that tests done on MY pulse motor gives the oposite result as stated by DMBoss!

When I run my rotor and put a unshorted (open) coil (with a ferrite core) up to the spinning rotor then
the RPM stays almost the same. When I short the coil and put it up to the rotor the RPM is going DOWN!
A shorted coil is a break for the rotor.

Groundloop.

Offline Harvey

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #61 on: February 06, 2008, 11:29:11 PM »
I think its important to understand here that if Mr. Heins were to short the coils through a resistive load, the energy would be dissipated in the resistor and not be available for magnetic coupling back to the motor.

The question everyone should be asking themselves is: "If the energy is available when the magnetic coupling is in place, what happens to it when the coupling is removed?"

What Mr. Heins is doing is showing us an inefficiency in our current technology where losses occur that could be recouped and utilized in other ways.

 8)

Offline Harvey

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #62 on: February 06, 2008, 11:31:20 PM »
@All,

Just want to say that tests done on MY pulse motor gives the oposite result as stated by DMBoss!

When I run my rotor and put a unshorted (open) coil (with a ferrite core) up to the spinning rotor then
the RPM stays almost the same. When I short the coil and put it up to the rotor the RPM is going DOWN!
A shorted coil is a break for the rotor.

Groundloop.


Try and place a magnetic pathway back to the spindle of your pulse motor. The flux induced in your handheld coil must have somewhere to go. ;)

Offline EMdevices

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #63 on: February 06, 2008, 11:40:41 PM »
Speaking of Perepiteia,   or something opposite taking place than what is intended,  I remember a phenomena simular to Hein's accelerating motor,  and I'm wondering if perhaps it's not the same thing.

A few years ago I was taking an engineering class dealing with electric machines (motors, generators, transformers, etc..),  and in the lab, the professor showed us what happens if you think you will stop a motor by cutting the current to the rotor field coils but leaving the stator coils powered up.  (I think we were dealing with an AC synchronous motor, where the rotor tracks the rotating field with no slip, but it might have been something else like a DC type of motor running with AC)   Common sense would tell us that if we decrease the magnetic field, the motor would have less torque (which normaly depends on the magnetic flux strength) and eventualy slow down some more.  Well that's not exactly what happens, and what happens can be quite dangerous and even kill.    The motor accelerated like a demon, and the professor quickly cut the power to the other set of coils and explained that you will have a catastrophic event if you make this mistake.  The motor speeds up so fast it will fly apart and kill people in it's blasting range.   so YOU DON'T CUT THE POWER TO JUST ONE SET OF COILS BUT TO BOTH COILS.    I don't remember much from that class, but this stuck in my memory as something odd and counterintuitive.

So why is it couterintuitive?   I believe at face value we don't think in terms of torque curves for the motor, but with modeling equations you can show how the torque curve gets modified when the flux drops in the rotor.  From the torque curves it becomes apparent that the steady state speed (equilibrium point) has just moved higher in RPM.

So, I believe Mr Heins might be dealing with this phenomena.  It's not a new physics phenomena, but an engineering or system effect.  That's why some of these profesors are also amazed.  They are experts in a very specific domain, but they can be quite ignorant in other areas.  I see that in myself as well.

EM

Offline Harvey

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #64 on: February 07, 2008, 12:13:57 AM »
Ever listen to vacuum cleaner when the hose gets plugged?

Or, have you ever taken the output of a fan and routed it back to the input?

How an apparent load interacts with the source can often have unexpected results.




Offline MrMag

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #65 on: February 07, 2008, 12:20:24 AM »
EM,

You are right about the professors. I used to work in the engineering department for a large food processing plant. We had a mechanical engineering professor stop by one day to see what we were doing. I showed him a positive displacement pump and he said, " so that's what they look like". This guy could tell you everything you wanted to know about them, but has never seen one up close before. They are very intelligent with the theory but I think they fall a bit short in the practical.

Tim

Offline Groundloop

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #66 on: February 07, 2008, 12:23:50 AM »
@Harvey,

What will the rpm result be if I provide a magnetic path from the RUN coil and back to the rotor axle?

Groundloop.

Offline gaby de wilde

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #67 on: February 07, 2008, 03:19:53 AM »
The technology is so complicated we need at least 100 lab coats to explain how it works.

.....o no! We only had to hold the magnet close to the motor.

Rocket science!

hahaha

Offline Bessler007

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #68 on: February 07, 2008, 05:23:11 AM »
@blindsanxxxx
   Ok, then tell me just how is it that the main guy at MIT "does" agree with him. "And" he is stumped as to why.

thaelin

Professor Zahn hasn't responded.  Thaelin, before I'd say the professor agrees with Heins I'd have to hear him explain why (not someone quoting him).  The same is true for why or if he's stumped.  There's no sound reason to conclude either.



Bessler007

edit:  I still haven't watched the videos.

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #69 on: February 07, 2008, 05:28:37 AM »
Hey guys and girls,

I'm reporting back as I said in Reply #21.

I live in Ottawa and have known Thane Heins for about 9 years now but have lost touch with him for the past 7 years. However I talk to him on the phone tonight for about half an hour. I invited him to the O.U. forum but he said he would not have the time to get involve at this time.

He has a demonstration at the Ottawa University Monday next week which he invited me and another member from this forum to attend.

So if anyone has easy and specific question or tests that we can ask him to do, please PM me but keep in mind that Thane or myself have only basic understandings of electronics. Thane wants to share any of his finding with all, so nothing is hidden. I also want to do the same.

I will give an update of the demonstration.

Luc

Offline Rosphere

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #70 on: February 07, 2008, 05:37:45 AM »
Look at this simple video:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/665396/how_increase_speed_of_electric_motor/

Just repeated the experiment with my oral B electric tooth brush.  The frequency (or the sound from the vibrating brush system) changed with the approaching of a strong magnet.

So there is nothing revolutionary with the Thane Heins discovery???

Lawrence, you're showing your ignorance again! Your knowledge of Physics is elementary at best and your knowledge of magnetics and electronics is at the grade school level.

The moral of the story is don't believe everything you see and certainly don't jump the gun in announcing a great find to try impress others you're on the 'leading edge' in understanding these great OU findings, including such home made flying saucer experiments from your commie friends.

Haven't you been laughed at long enough and by more people you can even count? I would have thought you would have learnt by now about not teaching your nonsense on this and other forums, eh?

cheers
chrisC

@chrisC

Never forget that a stopped face clock is correct twice a day.  ;)

I gave up on that so called, "lead out theory," long ago when I looked into the "simple" pendulum example.  I recall that I could not reconcile even the most basic premise due to a lack of clear system definitions.  I only check in on that topic nowadays for a quick giggle.  :D

That said, I happened to notice a motor acceleration myself a while back.  I was using a small DC motor and a battery as a sort of a poor man's 'spark gap oscillator' to drive some current around a coil of mag-wire wrapped around two magnets super-glued together in an opposing configuration.  Part of that experiment had something to do with making CD music sound 'different' somehow when this 'radiant beam' emitted from the magnet centers was left on the CD for some time.  There were some other things going on with that experiment that escape my memory at the moment, but I digress.

At one point in my screwing around with that particular experiment I happened to attract/attach this small motor to the magnet.  I noticed that at certain positions I could hear the motor speed-up.  I thought it was due to the opposing-fields-radiant-energy thing.  However, after seeing the video quoted above in this reply, I wonder if it was not just the magnets alone that were accelerating the motor.

At any rate, you might not want to throw the baby out with the 'lead-out' bath water just yet.  I am sure that a bunch of folks here have magnets and small DC motors lying about.  Why not give it a try?  8)

UPDATE: I just spoke with jdo300 about this.  He said that placing magnets near a DC motor will increase the speed because, if done right, all we are doing is increasing, by augmentation, the strength of the magnets already inside the motor.  Jason also said that Thane is using AC motors and that this fact is what makes his results such a curiosity.

Sometimes I feel that my only purpose in posting here is to make others feel smarter.  ???
« Last Edit: February 08, 2008, 04:10:55 AM by Rosphere »

Offline hveeder

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #71 on: February 07, 2008, 07:30:52 AM »
Hi this is my first post here. I know very little about motors and generators.  I would like to know if this quote supports the hysteresis explanation?
 

from:
http://www.thestar.com/Article/300041
quote:

Heins realized what had happened: The steel rotor and driveshaft had conducted the magnetic resistance away from the coil and back into the heart of the electric motor. Since such motors work on the principle of converting electrical energy into motion by creating rotating magnetic fields, he figured the Back EMF was boosting those fields, causing acceleration.

But  how could this be? It would create a positive feedback loop. As the motor accelerated faster it would create a larger electromagnetic field on the generator coil, causing the motor to go faster, and so on and so on. Heins confirmed his theory by replacing part of the driveshaft with plastic pipe that wouldn't conduct the magnetic field. There was no acceleration.
endquote


Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #72 on: February 07, 2008, 08:39:01 AM »
Hey guys and girls,

I'm reporting back as I said in Reply #21.

I live in Ottawa and have known Thane Heins for about 9 years now but have lost touch with him for the past 7 years. However I talk to him on the phone tonight for about half an hour. I invited him to the O.U. forum but he said he would not have the time to get involve at this time.



Hi Luc,
many thanks for contacting Mr. Heins.

Did he say anything about his overunity transformer
and if the shown videos were still from an earlier development
stage ?
Does he now have better units and videos ?


Looking forward to a report from the upcoming
university demonstration
Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline DMBoss

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #73 on: February 07, 2008, 04:18:09 PM »
@All,

Just want to say that tests done on MY pulse motor gives the oposite result as stated by DMBoss!

When I run my rotor and put a unshorted (open) coil (with a ferrite core) up to the spinning rotor then
the RPM stays almost the same. When I short the coil and put it up to the rotor the RPM is going DOWN!
A shorted coil is a break for the rotor.

Groundloop.


Well Groundloop:

You are comparing apples to oranges!  Exactly my point in chiding people posting results without doing their homework!

Ferrite cores, have exceptionally small core loss per pound of material and are virtually non-conductive so there is almost no eddy current loss.  And that's why we can use ferrites for extremely high frequencies, and cannot use steel above 400 Hz!

it's because steel, has very high core loss and so can't be used at higher freqs.  Not only is your test irrelevant to the issue at hand, i.e. Heins used bulk steel blocks as cores and you used ferrite (one has 15 watts per pound core loss at 60 Hz and the other has a few tens of milliwatts per pound at 60 Hz), But you fail to grasp energy/power balances!

Just because the rotor speed falls does not tell you anything about what and where power is going!  If you had a few turns of heavy wire on that shorted coil with ferrite as core - that would make a LOT of current and then the I'2R of that coil could be 20 watts!  This by itself with slow the rotor down, irrespective of a core loss change.  So you could have really large coil heating output placing a load torque on the rotor in excess of the miniscule core loss change of your ferrite core.

To make your blanket statement with authority, you'd have to measure torque, speed, True Power, and Rms voltage and current and crunch some numbers.  You'd also have to know the rotating mass friction at particular speeds being measured too, along with coil's DC resistance.

If however you had a gazillion turns of really fine wire as it appears Heins has, and shorted them, a miniscule current will flow and only a few tens of milliwatts will be dissipated by the coil heating, and the very large core loss change will be evident in rotor increase in speed!

To spell it out for you:

Your improper comparison using ferrite core, has a teensy core loss reduction upon shorting the coils, and this core loss reduction in drag, is less than the increase in drag due to the I^2R output of the coil heat. (yours is teensy because a 90% reduction in a core loss that starts at only 100milliwatts is teensy by comparison to a 90% reduction in steel core loss that starts at 5 or 50 watts!)

Heins' system has solid iron or steel bars as core, with a huge core loss value.  he also used a LOT of really fine wire to wind his coils - he shows one having 175 ohms DC resistance!  This miniscule current will flow to completely take the B in the core down to near zero as evidenced by the near zero voltage induction value.  So say he has 50mA flowing - into 175 ohms - that is then 437 milliwatts of coil heat adding drag to the rotor.  But he obviously has anywhere from 50 to 300 watts of drag in his system at no load, a large percentage of that being core loss - so if core loss were even a mere 5 watts no load, and it dropped to 1 watts when coils are shorted, the rotor will speed up because this lessened drag of 4 watts, is 10x higher than the increased drag from coil heating of 437mwatts!

Sorry your argument is nonsense.

DMBoss

Offline BEP

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #74 on: February 07, 2008, 05:44:09 PM »
Speed increase? I can see that.

No matter how much I dig I haven't found anything about shaft output power increase. If it is out there someone please post a link.

Thanks,

BEP