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Author Topic: Thane Heins Perepiteia.  (Read 1869351 times)

Nutcake

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #45 on: February 06, 2008, 09:11:53 AM »
Nutcake,  what do you mean?   All he is trying to show is the slight increase in speed when he shorts out the generator coil.  You see that on his Tachometer, it speeds up a bit.   But it's not OU, saddly to say.

EM

sorry, i thought it was a OU running machine.

DMBoss

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #46 on: February 06, 2008, 12:49:33 PM »
It appears that the Perepiteia Motor is nothing more than a hysteresis brake.  Placing the steel rods (wound by coils) near the spinning magnets induces alternating magnetic flux within the rods, the resulting magnetic hysteresis causes drag on the rotating disk, and heat losses within the steel rods.  Shorting out the coils effectively shields the steel rods from the disk's magnetic field, eliminating the hysteresis drag.  This causes the motor to speed up - but not as much as it would if the steel rods were removed completely.

BUSTED!

Hi:

blindsangamon is correct.  This is a common phenomenon regards "generators", but one often not commonly known about if you are not working with AC motors and generators all the time.  So the professor at MIT may not have this practical engineering savvy to identify the issues at first glance.

An hysteresis brake is one way to describe the apparently anomalous increase in speed when you short the generator coils.  What EVERY ferromagnetic core does when exposed to varying magnetic fields is to have it's domains rock or flip direction in accord with the magnetic field changes impinging on them.

This consumes power in the "friction" between domains as they sort of scrape past each other.  It results in the material heating up.  In addition to this hystersis "loss" is an eddy current effect within bulk steel from the very same time varying magnetic fields, also making heating of the core.  These two effects combined are commonly termed "core loss".

Core loss produces a reaction torque in a generator, in that the domain "friction" resists their aligning with the external field - causing more drag torque.  Eddy currents make magnetic fields which oppose the fields making the eddy currents too, making more drag torque.

Now "core loss" in any ferromagnetic core material is directly proportional to the induction, B.  Put another way the higher the delta flux density, the more core loss you get.  (it is also proportional to the frequency, but let's assume a constant freq here, even though it is not at a constant one - it speeds up and slows down, again a neophyte mistake - you must measure things here at common speeds/freqs to make comparisons accurately)

And the induction, B is then what produces the coil voltage via Faraday/Lenz laws.  That is voltage is the time derivative of delta flux.  So people, when you short a generator coil and it's voltage drops to near zero, you can be certain that the delta B within the coil's core is also near zero!

So if you started with a delta B of say 1,000 gauss at no load on the coils, and your core material produces say 15 watts of core loss per pound of core (solid steel is in this ballpark, which is why we laminate special steels for transformers which takes the core loss down to about 2 watts per pound) then you'd have some serious drag torque experienced by the drive motor with coils open circuit.

Now if you short the coils and drop the delta B down to say 10 gauss, you have REDUCED the core loss by a factor of 1000/10=100 times less core loss when shorted than when open circuited!

This means 100 times less drag torque felt by the drive motor! (therefore the common shaft speeds up when coils are shorted, duhhhh)

This is amateur hour gone mad - both in the videos and mostly in these lists!  Which does nothing but hurt the cause of getting O/U to the masses in my view, as it simply reinforces to the powers that be in the scientific community that it is a bunch of flakes and idiots making these claims!

Now I will also say, that heavily loading certain geometry of generator, can produce some gain.  I have several examples on the bench which do.  But they are proprietary and I don't care to share this with lists.  BUT you have to do proper energy/power balances to measure this gain.  And you have to endeavor to reduce core losses to a minimum and account for core loss change when you heavily load the coils too.

I have one which gets a gain in excess of the entire core loss value, both eddy and hysteresis - therefore the gain cannot be from this artifact that plagues all coil/core systems.  But it is a modest gain, and yes the rotor does want to speed up.  But you have to manage this speed, and measure the loaded and unloaded condition at the same shaft speed, because friction and windage change too when speed changes.

Then you have to measure True power at the shaft input via torque sensing and speed, against True output power, including friction, core loss, coil heating and direct electrical output for a complete energy/power balance.  In fact there is an IEEE protocol for doing a complete power balance on motors and generators, which includes all these things.

This person did few if none of these things properly and is delusional about the apparent speed increasing meaning it is O/U.  There could be a small amount of gain in his sloppy and amateurish system, but it is completely overriden by mundane, conventional effects as "blindsangamon" correctly points out.

In short his videos are a waste of bandwidth and show nothing conclusive except that author is both ignorant of EM, and of how to perform measurements on said systems.

Sorry for being so terse with you folks, but it is very annoying to watch so many people do harm to the cause by spouting off without really having a grasp of conventional ElectroMagnetics.  Both amateur's like in these videos, and indeed a large percentage of the armchair critics populating these lists!  Do your homework before putting foot in mouth!

There's a few rational voices out there, blindsangamon being one, and most of you then deride these voices with nonsense and blind faith!

here's a simplified protocol for measuring a generator's complete power balance:

Pick or know the optimal final speed of the system.  Use only this shaft speed for all measurements.
1 Measure all parameters in a generator "no load" condition including:
2 Friction alone, meaning with no magnets or mag fields acting on the cores. 
3 Then include the mag fields and measure the input drag power (torque times angular velocity).

The difference between 3 minus 2 is the core loss at no load.

4 Measure the DC resistance of all coils as they would be connected in a loaded condition (i.e. series or parallel).

5 Load the generator at the same speed as the no load tests.
6 measure input power via torque times speed. (Newton-meters times RPM times 0.1047 = shaft power in watts)
7 measure True output electrical power.  Not with DMM's. but with appropriate True Power meters or analyzers.
8 measure coil current, and calculate coil's "Joule heating" via I^2R.
9 measure and compare coil voltage compared to no load voltage for a ratio with which to discount core loss.
Then take the loaded input shaft power in watts as INPUT to system.

Against this Input, you add the following:
a electrical output in watts
b friction in watts
c core loss via no load core loss times the voltage drop ratio (so if no load core loss were 37 watts, and no load voltage was 125V and loaded voltage is 83V, then the ratio is 0.664.  Multiply 0.664 times no load core loss of 37 watts to equal 24.57 watts output core loss)
d coil heating via I^2R

Add up item a through d for the total system OUTPUT.

Now divide Output by Input for your COP. (Coefficient of Performance)

Note friction, core loss and coil heat are legitimate outputs.... they heat the room!  Useful output is an arbitrary distinction based on subjective criteria.  If you want shaft power then heat is not useful.  If however you want a heater, then shaft power is not useful!  So to know in the absolute sense if a thing is over unity or not, you have to account for ALL outputs in a balance sheet.

That's another pet peeve of mine - those who dismiss everything they deem as "not useful"!  Now suppose you had a system which routinely produces 200% more heat output in coil heating and core heating while it turns a shaft as in some newfangled motor.  The shaft power COP is only 35%, but overall the system is 200% gainful.  These persons I refer to would dismiss this as not being useful because the shaft power is under unity!

When in fact a home heating system would require a heat exchange mechanism to get heat from your machine to the air, thus it requires a pump - moving air or water or both.  So you could make "use" of both the excess heating and the shaft power from said system!

My point is at these early stages it is imperative that you measure all aspects even if you may "think" they aren't useful.  For complete energy balances and because overunity may not come in the form you wish it to!

DMBoss

RunningBare

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #47 on: February 06, 2008, 12:55:35 PM »
Look at:  http://www.magtrol.com/tensioncontrol/hysteresisbrakes.htm
and:  http://www.djautomation.co.uk/html/hysteresis_brake___clutch.html

He has a hysteresis brake that is turned off by shorting the coil windings.

He has hysteresis "braking" when applying a DC voltage to the field coil, which is exactly what you would expect, read the stuff that you link to

http://www.magtrol.com/datasheets/hb-mhb.pdf
The hysteresis effect in magnetism is applied to torque
control by the use of two basic components ?a reticulated
pole structure and a specialty steel rotor/shaft
assembly?fastened together but not in physical
contact. Until the field coil is energized,
the drag cup can spin freely on the ball
bearings. When a magnetizing force
from either a field coil or magnet is
applied to the pole structure, the
air gap becomes a flux field.
The rotor is magnetically
restrained, providing a
braking action between
the pole structure and
rotor.

Nali2001

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #48 on: February 06, 2008, 03:11:00 PM »
I agree with the hysteresis brake theory. I here also have a video:
http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/RevUpUnderLoad.wmv
that shows a generator loaded with a 50watt 12v car bulb and indeed under load (or direct short) there is a very considerable increase in rpm. (and thus a drop in motor amp draw) The motor is a ?universal motor? from a washing machine powered by a variac.

This accelerating effect does give the feeling that lenz is ?overcome? but it is not so. The effect is only there when one uses ?bad cores? with lots of eddy current and hysteresis losses. In this generator solid steel cores are used and I tell you in only 1 minute they are 70+ degrees (Celsius) hot, and I?m not joking. But the main problem is that these bad cores don?t seem to be able to give a bigger output then the losses they have. So the solid steel cores were replaced with good silicon steel laminations, but you guessed it, the accelerating effect is now gone.

So you can kinda say it like this. If you have a core with lots of core losses, Lenz will fight them and cause less drag on the rotor under speed (but only up to a balance between the two) but due to the bad core you can forget any o.u potential. So you say let?s use good cores then, like silicon steel or metglass? well you now have the potential of real good output? but unfortunately the no load effect is now gone. So again nature has found a way to put ?it? just out of our reach.

Regards,
Steven




RunningBare

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #49 on: February 06, 2008, 03:24:01 PM »
So to put this in simple terms, the drive motor is in fact loaded down when the light is not connected?

Just to get a picture of this, whats the motors specified rpm under no load conditions? in other words its shaft not connected to anything.


I agree with the hysteresis brake theory. I here also have a video:
http://www.krystyna.nl/Machine/RevUpUnderLoad.wmv
that shows a generator loaded with a 50watt 12v car bulb and indeed under load (or direct short) there is a very considerable increase in rpm. (and thus a drop in motor amp draw) The motor is a ?universal motor? from a washing machine powered by a variac.

This accelerating effect does give the feeling that lenz is ?overcome? but it is not so. The effect is only there when one uses ?bad cores? with lots of eddy current and hysteresis losses. In this generator solid steel cores are used and I tell you in only 1 minute they are 70+ degrees (Celsius) hot, and I?m not joking. But the main problem is that these bad cores don?t seem to be able to give a bigger output then the losses they have. So the solid steel cores were replaced with good silicon steel laminations, but you guessed it, the accelerating effect is now gone.

So you can kinda say it like this. If you have a core with lots of core losses, Lenz will fight them and cause less drag on the rotor under speed (but only up to a balance between the two) but due to the bad core you can forget any o.u potential. So you say let?s use good cores then, like silicon steel or metglass? well you now have the potential of real good output? but unfortunately the no load effect is now gone. So again nature has found a way to put ?it? just out of our reach.

Regards,
Steven





EMdevices

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #50 on: February 06, 2008, 03:29:33 PM »
The MAGTROL  brakes are not HYSTERISIS activated. I'm surprised they claim that.   

Hysterisis comes about by cycling the operating point of a ferromagntic material back and forth along the H-B  curve.   This requires AC, and these brakes use DC (just follow the flux path, they even say it's dc, the small poles all have the same polarity, so it's not like an alternator rotor with alternating N S poles).

The principle of operation here is eddy currents, which get induced due to motion through a magnetic field, which in the case of these brakes exists radialy in the airgap through which the rotor (cup) passes.   Just because the rotor shaft is magnetic does not negate the effect and somehow make it hysterisis activated, it's still eddy current induction and the steel amplifyes the magnetic field of the eddy currents and the Dc flux in the gap.

That's how I see it, but that's not realy related to what this Heins guy is doing.

EM

hartiberlin

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #51 on: February 06, 2008, 03:29:53 PM »
DMBoss and Steven are right, that the core losses have to be researched and I agree, that the videos were done not very professionally from a measurement standpoint.
But if you look again at video 4 where he shows the coils inside the toroidal core, it would only take to measure the output power when the coils are shortrd out not directly but across a load and then compare versus the input power.
Also I think these videos might be a bit older as he now claims to have an overunity transformer having 0.2 Watts input and 14 Watts output.

So maybe Luc, who knows him can ring him up and get the latest infos from Mr. Heins ?
Many thanks.

canam101

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #52 on: February 06, 2008, 05:44:51 PM »

So maybe Luc, who knows him can ring him up and get the latest infos from Mr. Heins ?
Many thanks.


Does anyone have an email address for Heins. Maybe he would be willing to show up here or on the Steorn forum to discuss what he has.

gaby de wilde

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #53 on: February 06, 2008, 07:47:35 PM »
Look at this simple video:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/665396/how_increase_speed_of_electric_motor/

Just repeated the experiment with my oral B electric tooth brush.  The frequency (or the sound from the vibrating brush system) changed with the approaching of a strong magnet.

So there is nothing revolutionary with the Thane Heins discovery???

hahaha

chrisC

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #54 on: February 06, 2008, 07:57:02 PM »
Look at this simple video:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/665396/how_increase_speed_of_electric_motor/

Just repeated the experiment with my oral B electric tooth brush.  The frequency (or the sound from the vibrating brush system) changed with the approaching of a strong magnet.

So there is nothing revolutionary with the Thane Heins discovery???

Lawrence, you're showing your ignorance again! Your knowledge of Physics is elementary at best and your knowledge of magnetics and electronics is at the grade school level.

The moral of the story is don't believe everything you see and certainly don't jump the gun in announcing a great find to try impress others you're on the 'leading edge' in understanding these great OU findings, including such home made flying saucer experiments from your commie friends.

Haven't you been laughed at long enough and by more people you can even count? I would have thought you would have learnt by now about not teaching your nonsense on this and other forums, eh?

cheers
chrisC

RunningBare

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #55 on: February 06, 2008, 08:07:42 PM »

Hi:

blindsangamon is correct.  This is a common phenomenon regards "generators", but one often not commonly known about if you are not working with AC motors and generators all the time.  So the professor at MIT may not have this practical engineering savvy to identify the issues at first glance.

DMBoss

Now while I admit that I do not hang on the words of scientists/professors.

http://www.thestar.com/Business/article/300042

Contacted by phone a few hours after the test, Zahn is genuinely stumped ? and surprised. He said the magnet shouldn't cause acceleration. "It's an unusual phenomena I wouldn't have predicted in advance. But I saw it. It's real. Now I'm just trying to figure it out."

There's no talk of perpetual motion. No whisper of broken scientific laws or free energy. Zahn would never go there ? at least not yet. But he does see the potential for making electric motors more efficient, and this itself is no small feat.
 

Resume for Markus Kahn http://lees.mit.edu/lees/old_files/full/faculty/Zahn/Zahnbiography%208-05.pdf
Maybe the effect is not commonly known as you put it, but surely this guy would have spotted it?
And hes not exactly a n00b to magnetics.
http://lees.mit.edu/lees/old_files/full/projects/ferrof00.html

magnetoelastic

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #56 on: February 06, 2008, 08:21:12 PM »
EMdevices sez:
>The MAGTROL  brakes are not HYSTERISIS activated. I'm surprised they claim that.   
>
>Hysterisis comes about by cycling the operating point of a ferromagntic material back and forth along the H->B  curve.   This requires AC, and these brakes use DC (just follow the flux path, they even say it's dc, the >small poles all have the same polarity, so it's not like an alternator rotor with alternating N S poles).

It is indeed a hysteresis brake.  Hysteresis works at DC, too, unlike an eddy current brake.  A hysteresis brake can exhibit full torque at zero RPM.


sterlinga

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Schpankme

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #58 on: February 06, 2008, 10:30:11 PM »
This is really a great story, told repeatedly over the last 20 plus years.

"Neo magnet runs the risk that increased flux can drive the housing and armature laminations into saturation, increasing iron losses and limiting the potential gain in efficiency. To work around this problem, the relative radial thicknesses of the magnet and the steel housing should be adjusted for maximum air-gap flux density. The lamination spoke width should increase and the inner lamination spokes should be converted to a solid rotor hub. Maximum efficiency can easily rise another 5 to 10% by optimizing the magnet, housing, and armature lamination dimensions"

The higher the remanence (BR) of a magnet, the better it can reduce current draw in a dc motor. The product of a magnet's operating flux density (B) and its magnetizing force (H) is a direct measure of its energy density. The maximum, (BH)max, is commonly used as a figure of merit for a permanent-magnet material.

Remanence is the magnetization left behind in a medium after an external magnetic field is removed. It is denoted in equations as MR. In engineering applications it is often assumed that the magnetization M is synonymous with the flux density B, hence the remanence is denoted as BR.

The remanence magnitude can be taken from a hysteresis loop at the intersections of the loop with the vertical magnetization axis.

- Schpankme

EMdevices

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #59 on: February 06, 2008, 11:01:12 PM »
thanks magnetoelastic,  I think you might have set me straight.  I read a bit more, and sure enough they have eddy current brakes which are separate from the hysterisis type, which work independent of RPM.    I guess I learned something new today.

EM