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Author Topic: Thane Heins Perepiteia.  (Read 1872465 times)

RunningBare

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #150 on: February 13, 2008, 07:59:12 PM »
gotoluc, please provide us the youtube Link to your video.
Thanks in advance...

@dani1 I have not yet uploaded the video's to my youtube account since it takes lots of time and bandwith to upload and I was waiting to see it there is a large enough interest to do so. Also my video is not showing anything diffrent than what you can see in Thane's video's. The only thing is it was done in the presence of 3 members of this forum and with my own video camera.

I will do it if Stefan requests for my video's to be posted or if 2 more members ask for it.

Thank you for your interest

Luc

Yes please.

LarryC

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #151 on: February 13, 2008, 10:33:47 PM »
The Bi-Toroid Transformer design appears to be pure simple genius.

The following is an excerpt from a University Physics book describing how a transformer works: 'The process by which the transformer is enabled to draw the requisite amount of power is as follows. When the secondary circuit is open, the core flux is produced by the primary current only. But when the secondary circuit is closed, both primary and secondary currents set up a flux in the core. The secondary current, by Lenz's law, tends to weaken the core flux and therefore to decrease the back-emf in the primary. But the back-emf in the primary must equal the primary terminal voltage, which is assumed to be fixed. The primary current therefore increases until the core flux is restored to its original no-load magnitude.'

Since it appears that the design will decouple the primary and secondary flux, there should be no increase in current in the primary. The only small losses will be from wire resistance, hysteresis, and eddy currents. The normal for a no load transformer.

His design does not break Lenz's law, he seems to have found a way around it. His unorthodox design of his original generator, using an iron wheel instead of a non-ferrous type like the other 1000's of attempt on OU sites was very serendipitous. At first glance it appears that most of the permanent magnet flux would have been wrapping into the edge of the wheel. His results caused him to look into why the motor speeded up, which resulted in how he found out about the decoupling benefits. What great luck for the world.

By the way, most ceiling fan motors have a large toroid of laminated steel.

Regards, LarryC

Steven Dufresne

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #152 on: February 13, 2008, 11:21:16 PM »
I did some homework today looking for high permeability cores. Thane's design talks about using a relative permeability (ur) of 100,000. The highest I could find for a reasonably easy to work with core was 10,000 for 6cm and 7cm cores. Anything at 20,000 was far too small to work with, a few millimeters.
These were on:
 http://www.ferroxcube.com/prod/assets/fertor.htm
for example:
 http://www.ferroxcube.com/prod/assets/tx633825large.pdf

I guess the higher the better and 10,000 is pretty high relative to a rod with ur=200. Does anyone know if there is better, while still being a workable size, on the market?
-Steve
http://rimstar.org

LarryC

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #153 on: February 14, 2008, 12:01:19 AM »
I did some homework today looking for high permeability cores. Thane's design talks about using a relative permeability (ur) of 100,000. The highest I could find for a reasonably easy to work with core was 10,000 for 6cm and 7cm cores. Anything at 20,000 was far too small to work with, a few millimeters.
These were on:
 http://www.ferroxcube.com/prod/assets/fertor.htm
for example:
 http://www.ferroxcube.com/prod/assets/tx633825large.pdf

I guess the higher the better and 10,000 is pretty high relative to a rod with ur=200. Does anyone know if there is better, while still being a workable size, on the market?
-Steve



http://rimstar.org

@Steve,

Please check out http://info.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/coils/mu/#mur for relative permeability of materials.
The ceiling fan motor toroid should be grain oriented silicon steel, almost any ferrite should be of less permeability.

Regards, LarryC

Steven Dufresne

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #154 on: February 14, 2008, 02:25:58 AM »
Please check out http://info.ee.surrey.ac.uk/Workshop/advice/coils/mu/#mur for relative permeability of materials.
The ceiling fan motor toroid should be grain oriented silicon steel, almost any ferrite should be of less permeability.

Larry,
Thanks! Do the ceiling fans have high permeability cores to keep the amount of copper down, and hence the weight down? I just bought a dirt cheap, $15.00 ceiling fan on sale but was looking for any insight about if there's a certain type of ceiling fan that wouldn't have it before I rip it apart. It's returnable but probably not after I've broken any pieces.
-Steve

vince

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #155 on: February 14, 2008, 03:41:36 AM »
After reading this thread for a while I thought I might try my hand at the Heins transformer. What I did is a little different from all of your experiments in that I took a standard 120 volt to 12 volt  ac transformer and the field core and  windings from a 120 volt fan motor and milled them to fit together in a T shape dual flux path transformer.  I then welded the two cores together. You can see a picture of it below. My thought was that the induced voltage would travel to the center core from the outer leg and back emf would take the easiest path around the center core.This was actually my second unit as the first one was bolted together.  Both behave in exactly the same way.  When I apply AC voltage to the new grafted on primary, the secondary coil which was the primary of the original transformer sees a voltage as you would expect.  The strange thing is that if you load the new secondary it does not affect the input current at all, not even if it is shorted out. I'm not sure if this means anything or not.  Maybe one of you more knowledgeable electrical types might have a take on my experiment. I would appreciate any comments.

hartiberlin

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #156 on: February 14, 2008, 04:14:13 AM »

@dani1 I have not yet uploaded the video's to my youtube account since it takes lots of time and bandwith to upload and I was waiting to see it there is a large enough interest to do so. Also my video is not showing anything diffrent than what you can see in Thane's video's. The only thing is it was done in the presence of 3 members of this forum and with my own video camera.

I will do it if Stefan requests for my video's to be posted or if 2 more members ask for it.

Thank you for your interest

Luc


Hi Luc,
yes,  please post the videos,
if they are each under 5 MB here as an attachment,
if they are bigger,please upload to e.g.
www.megaupload.com
and post the links to them over here.
Many thanks in advance.

Regards, Stefan.

hartiberlin

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #157 on: February 14, 2008, 05:13:24 AM »
After reading this thread for a while I thought I might try my hand at the Heins transformer. What I did is a little different from all of your experiments in that I took a standard 120 volt to 12 volt  ac transformer and the field core and  windings from a 120 volt fan motor and milled them to fit together in a T shape dual flux path transformer.  I then welded the two cores together. You can see a picture of it below. My thought was that the induced voltage would travel to the center core from the outer leg and back emf would take the easiest path around the center core.This was actually my second unit as the first one was bolted together.  Both behave in exactly the same way.  When I apply AC voltage to the new grafted on primary, the secondary coil which was the primary of the original transformer sees a voltage as you would expect.  The strange thing is that if you load the new secondary it does not affect the input current at all, not even if it is shorted out. I'm not sure if this means anything or not.  Maybe one of you more knowledgeable electrical types might have a take on my experiment. I would appreciate any comments.

Many thanks for this info.
Please post details how you measured this device and
what the voltage and amps settings were and how much
power you pumped into it and at what frequency and
what the output reading was.
Many thanks.

wizkycho

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #158 on: February 14, 2008, 09:43:29 AM »
Look at this simple video:

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/665396/how_increase_speed_of_electric_motor/

Just repeated the experiment with my oral B electric tooth brush.  The frequency (or the sound from the vibrating brush system) changed with the approaching of a strong magnet.

So there is nothing revolutionary with the Thane Heins discovery???

Hi Itseung888 !

Have You made this beutifull scalable eyeopener experiment ?
If so many thanks to You, and before we say we have breahthrough can you please
dissmantle tooth brush and put A-meter and meassure current from battery with and without magnets.

I even expect current drop !?!
is it so

again big THX and all the best

Wiz

It is not overlooked, cause knowone ever looked at all.

gyulasun

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #159 on: February 14, 2008, 12:00:50 PM »
The Bi-Toroid Transformer design appears to be pure simple genius.

The following is an excerpt from a University Physics book describing how a transformer works: 'The process by which the transformer is enabled to draw the requisite amount of power is as follows. When the secondary circuit is open, the core flux is produced by the primary current only. But when the secondary circuit is closed, both primary and secondary currents set up a flux in the core. The secondary current, by Lenz's law, tends to weaken the core flux and therefore to decrease the back-emf in the primary. But the back-emf in the primary must equal the primary terminal voltage, which is assumed to be fixed. The primary current therefore increases until the core flux is restored to its original no-load magnitude.'

Since it appears that the design will decouple the primary and secondary flux, there should be no increase in current in the primary. The only small losses will be from wire resistance, hysteresis, and eddy currents. The normal for a no load transformer.

His design does not break Lenz's law, he seems to have found a way around it. His unorthodox design of his original generator, using an iron wheel instead of a non-ferrous type like the other 1000's of attempt on OU sites was very serendipitous. At first glance it appears that most of the permanent magnet flux would have been wrapping into the edge of the wheel. His results caused him to look into why the motor speeded up, which resulted in how he found out about the decoupling benefits. What great luck for the world.

By the way, most ceiling fan motors have a large toroid of laminated steel.

Regards, LarryC

Hi Larry and all,

The principle of the Bi toroid transformer recalls my memories on the so-called "ph-machine" from the 1990s but the difference between the two is that in the ph-machine a permanent magnet is rotated diametrically inside a toroidal core, to create flux change in the toroid,  see this link: http://alexfrolov.narod.ru/ph-machine.htm   So a measured overunity is claimed...   

I would be very curious to know whatever happened to this design since then and other people have managed to replicate it and confirm overunity since then??  Maybe Stefan could comment here?

Thanks,  Gyula

Steven Dufresne

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #160 on: February 14, 2008, 03:50:20 PM »
After reading this thread for a while I thought I might try my hand at the Heins transformer. What I did is a little different from all of your experiments in that I took a standard 120 volt to 12 volt  ac transformer...
Vince,
I can't picture what you did from your description. Any chance you could upload a simple sketch? If so, could you make clear which parts are which core?
-Steve
http://rimstar.org

LarryC

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #161 on: February 14, 2008, 05:14:21 PM »
Larry,
Thanks! Do the ceiling fans have high permeability cores to keep the amount of copper down, and hence the weight down? I just bought a dirt cheap, $15.00 ceiling fan on sale but was looking for any insight about if there's a certain type of ceiling fan that wouldn't have it before I rip it apart. It's returnable but probably not after I've broken any pieces.
-Steve

Steve,

Grain oriented silicon steel is used in most motors and transformer as it has high permeability and is cheap. If your ceiling fan is in the shape of large pancake, then it is most likely the correct type. The fan motor that Vince has is a shaded pole induction motor used in many vent fans.

If you use the toroid from the ceiling fan, be aware of the fine slanted lines in the toroid. They are die cast aluminum which is connected at the top and bottom with a continuous bar of aluminum. The rotors magnetic field induces a current in the connected lines to create another magnetic field. The top and botton bar should be removed so that this does not happen. The fine slanted lines do not go completely thru the core, so it should'nt cause much of flux problem.

Larry


LarryC

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #162 on: February 14, 2008, 05:32:05 PM »
@gotoluc,

Thanks for all the great info.

I'm a little concerned about the permeability of 200 on the primary. It seems like it would severly restrict the amount of flux going to the secondary and reduce the available power considerably. Could it be that a zero or a couple of zeros were chopped off in the picture?

Thanks, Larry

Steven Dufresne

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #163 on: February 14, 2008, 06:00:34 PM »
If you use the toroid from the ceiling fan, be aware of the fine slanted lines in the toroid. They are die cast aluminum which is connected at the top and bottom with a continuous bar of aluminum. The rotors magnetic field induces a current in the connected lines to create another magnetic field. The top and botton bar should be removed so that this does not happen. The fine slanted lines do not go completely thru the core, so it should'nt cause much of flux problem.
Larry,
Please see the following pictures. There are some numbered questions on one of them. Also, how delicate do I have to be in tearing this apart?
-Steve
http://rimstar.org

LarryC

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Re: Thane heins is getting some serious attention for is motor
« Reply #164 on: February 14, 2008, 06:56:36 PM »
Larry,
Please see the following pictures. There are some numbered questions on one of them. Also, how delicate do I have to be in tearing this apart?
-Steve
http://rimstar.org

Steve,

Actually, I'm surprised at the amount rust in a new fan motor. I had to replace the bearing in three of my frozen fans after Katrina and the toroid had less rust.

Everything should be removed above and below until you can see the fine thin lines on the top and bottom. I'm not sure about the green as mine didn't have any, but as long the thin slanted lines can't conduct it will be okay. You may be able to use a chisel on the aluminum and if that doesn't work a grinder will. The steel is a lot harder and if you are careful it shouldn't mess up too much. I would put tape or clamps around the sections you are not working on to keep the steel laminations together as they usually are just held together with an insulating epoxy to reduce eddy currents. A note of caution, some of these items may contain lead, so a mask is recommended.

All,

The Bi-Toroid transformer can also be reproduced by removing  the center steel out of a EI type transformer. Then replace the center with a lower reluctance member. Someone stated that a toroid was more efficient but it appears that this would still work. I would wait on gotoluc answer to my permeability question before getting a primary member.

Regards, Larry