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Author Topic: New Hexagon Cell Design: comments  (Read 8879 times)

Dman27

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New Hexagon Cell Design: comments
« on: January 28, 2008, 04:49:38 AM »
Just wanted some input on this HHO cell design.  I wanted some feedback on how you think this can be utilized by alternating positive and negative on the different plates of the cores.  The cores can be tall but very slim to increase the area. 

The single core consists of a round solid tube of stainless steel or other conductor with six (6) surrounding stainless steel plates seperated by insulating material. 
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2268/2224311647_24ed2bd77f.jpg?v=0)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2410/2225206412_892255ef46.jpg?v=0)
My idea is that that the solid center will be either positive or negative while the surrounding plates will be opposite polarity.  The outside plates are separated because it gives the option of alternating each plate's polarity,one negative the other positive around the center.  It also gives the option of some being neutral plates.

Utilizing this cell into another hexagonal group might increase HHO production by utilizing the correct spacing, polarity differences from one ring to another and magnetism effects between the ringed groups. 

For example:the centers are one polarity while the surrounding plates in individual cores are opposite polarity or neutrals.  Also, in the hexagon group, the core groups will also have different polarities from each other.

(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2108/2224311885_628d44e8c3.jpg?v=0)
(http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2118/2224311485_73ed49c6dd.jpg?v=0)
 
An individual core can be large to fit in one generator or very small where a hexagonal group can fit into one generator.

Please comment on the polarity schemes for the individual cores or the hexagonal group for efficient production
Thanks. 

Dman27

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Re: New Hexagon Cell Design: comments
« Reply #1 on: January 30, 2008, 02:47:17 AM »
I guess no one is going to reply or doesn't know what I'm trying to get at here.  My apologies for not explaining it correctly. 

If you look at a honeycomb, it is one of natures most efficient designs in terms of space utilization and strength. 

compare this design to a johnaaron's cell (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DVL8Q7Hqt6Y) or an older magdrive cell design (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JBGNreUM5Q.  Both are very good designs in that they produce a great amount of Hydrogen utilizing Pulse wave modulation circuits to reduce power consumption.  However the cells are larger to maximize the surface area to produce more hydrogen and oxygen.  Some of these designs also employ neutral plate combinations. 

If you look at another very efficient cell using round tubes, similar to Stan Meyer's designs, you will see a slight benefit in being able to utilize the space more effectively as well as being able to tune the tubes.

If you wanted to maximize the surface area of any of these designs, wouldn't it be possible to redesign a given plate to its Hexagonal equivalent mass while also giving the ability to "tune", explore different polarities and consider neutral plates?

Excuse me if I'm way off base here, but just trying to toss this around for your consideration. 


Cap-Z-ro

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Re: New Hexagon Cell Design: comments
« Reply #2 on: January 30, 2008, 04:50:26 AM »

I have read and followed the many methods of hho production here and elsewhere - and with the volatile nature of the gas, the desire seems to be being able to produce it on demand-without using electricity directly, thereby eliminating the clean-up issues associated with direct application of current.

Speaking personally I've moved beyond the conventional method, and am seeking alternate ways to make hho on the spot, as needed - likely frequency related ways.

I suspect others here have moved on also, which would account for the apparent lack of interest shown.

Original concept nonetheless - which is always refreshing and encouraging.
 
Regards...

 

Dman27

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Re: New Hexagon Cell Design: comments
« Reply #3 on: January 30, 2008, 06:28:41 AM »
Thanks Cap-Z-ro, I am very interested in the merging of multiple systems such as permanent magnetic motors, fueless cavitation devices and On-demand HHO production. 

I definitely agree that On-demand production is the way to go.  I'm not as familiar with alternative ways to make HHO on the spot, could you point in the right direction to start researching that?

One big hurdle to making On-demand HHO is the power needed for the electrolysis.  If we can design cells that have extremely low input to get a huge production of HHO then alternatives become reality.  For example..solar cells can directly power an On-demand HHO generator because of the very efficient design of the low power cell.  This HHO output can be used for heat production, electric production in a fuel cell and other multi-system setups.

Keep up the good work and the information released to the public.

Bessler007

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Re: New Hexagon Cell Design: comments
« Reply #4 on: January 30, 2008, 06:47:57 AM »
Unless you can explain why a a change of polarity for the electrode/cathode increases production I'm of the opinion any change has an expense.  My question would be, "why pay it?"

Also, when something is neutral it means it's not doing any work.


Bessler007



. . .
My idea is that that the solid center will be either positive or negative while the surrounding plates will be opposite polarity.  The outside plates are separated because it gives the option of alternating each plate's polarity,one negative the other positive around the center.  It also gives the option of some being neutral plates.

Utilizing this cell into another hexagonal group might increase HHO production by utilizing the correct spacing, polarity differences from one ring to another and magnetism effects between the ringed groups.
. . .
Thanks. 

Dman27

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Re: New Hexagon Cell Design: comments
« Reply #5 on: January 30, 2008, 08:02:04 AM »
My reasoning to be "able" to change polarity is to identify the correct "tuning" of any cell design given the electrolyte, input voltage,amperage and the spacing between plates. Some designs have shown that the polarity on a multi-plate unit can alter the output with the same input. 

If the area of the plates combined with the power input is a major  factor then a design to get the same area in a smaller space would greatly enhance output.  A honeycomb design may achieve this effect with the overall goal being to have a much larger production from the same container with lower input power.

The theory,as I understand it, behind the Neutral plate is that some production is coming off plates that are not directly connected to power due to capacitance or whatever. These plates must add some resistance to the circuit ,but is negated by the overall resistance of the water itself. 

One thing I'm somewhat confused about is adding extra electrolytes to the water.  If we are moving toward Free Energy then we can say water "can" be free, however with each ingredient that makes up the electrolyte is added that Free Energy gets more expensive.  I know why we use these but effectively we want to use water as it is. 



Unless you can explain why a a change of polarity for the electrode/cathode increases production I'm of the opinion any change has an expense.  My question would be, "why pay it?"

Also, when something is neutral it means it's not doing any work.


Bessler007



. . .
My idea is that that the solid center will be either positive or negative while the surrounding plates will be opposite polarity.  The outside plates are separated because it gives the option of alternating each plate's polarity,one negative the other positive around the center.  It also gives the option of some being neutral plates.

Utilizing this cell into another hexagonal group might increase HHO production by utilizing the correct spacing, polarity differences from one ring to another and magnetism effects between the ringed groups.
. . .
Thanks. 

Bessler007

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Re: New Hexagon Cell Design: comments
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2008, 08:18:13 AM »
The compression of energy into a smaller frame of time will create more power.  The questions you need to ask wrt to your idea is:  (1) how can you cause this? and (2) what will pay for that compression?

It seems obvious the how will expain the what.


Bessler007

Bessler007

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Re: New Hexagon Cell Design: comments
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2008, 08:05:24 PM »
Hello Dman27,

My guess concerning an increase of frequency was two-fold.  One supposition was that although increasing the freq would compress more energy in a tighter frame of time producing more power it would require energy to produce more power.  So the question would be is it worth it?

The second supposition was the lost time as they frequency changed polarity at the extremes.  The point of change seems to be just a point but these points accumulate as frequency rises.

From what I can gather the material of the electrodes is just as important (if not more so) than the surface area.  Some materials have more processes happening than simply the production of Brown's gas and energy is wasted by them.

Capacitance between plates might produce gas but in most cases there is an energy cost.  Without looking at a specific example it's impossible to analyze.

If I understand your explanation of the nature of your design it has two points.  One is to maximize volume and the other is to ?tune? it in an attempt to find the ideal freq to maximize Brown's gas.

From the link (U of Cambridge) below it seems the  best voltage might be an ac wave of a higher freq riding on a steady sweep of a slower rising dc wave (like a triangle wave).  I read the site kind of quickly and might have it wrong but since you have a better idea what you're looking for you most likely won't miss as much as I did.

Hope this helps.


Bessler007


http://www.cheng.cam.ac.uk/research/groups/electrochem/JAVA/electrochemistry/ELEC/contents.html

Bessler007

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Re: New Hexagon Cell Design: comments
« Reply #8 on: January 30, 2008, 08:18:07 PM »
Dman27,

I missed a point.  I think the electrolysis happens above a threshold voltage between electrodes.  If that's the case then as the voltage alternates there would be more than a point where no work would happen.  There could be the benefit of longevity for the cell but wrt gas production I can't see one.


Bessler007

Bessler007

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Re: New Hexagon Cell Design: comments
« Reply #9 on: January 30, 2008, 08:32:22 PM »
One final point.  First let me explain the MIB's in this incident were driving a black Lincoln Town car, not black helicopters.  These were not my agents.  There has been a directive recently from the very top echelons of mib HQ not to harass, accost, nor in any way impair those researching Brown gas technology.


Quote
VENTURA COUNTY, CALIFORNIA, USA -- On May 16, a technician who was one of a team of garage experimenters investigating a hydrogen-on-demand technology was run off the road near a rural intersection and accosted by four white, middle-aged males in black suits, carrying Glocks and Mac tens.  The assailants were driving a late model, black Lincoln Town Car.




Bessler007
Cmdr, BHS
mib HQ

Dman27

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Re: New Hexagon Cell Design: comments
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2008, 12:55:42 AM »
Bessler007,  That is very interesting. I am just taking a look at the site and going over the material.

 It is heavy reading, but definitely supports what other testers have found on their own.  Namely, more Electrode exposure per given voltage = more production of HHO gas.  Also, More voltage will produce more HHO gas. I have been wondering why everyone has been using Stainless steel rather than better conducting material.  My guess would be expense and corrosion factors, but seems to be counter intuitive.  Will check back shortly after reading the rest of the site. 


Hello Dman27,

My guess concerning an increase of frequency was two-fold.  One supposition was that although increasing the freq would compress more energy in a tighter frame of time producing more power it would require energy to produce more power.  So the question would be is it worth it?

The second supposition was the lost time as they frequency changed polarity at the extremes.  The point of change seems to be just a point but these points accumulate as frequency rises.

From what I can gather the material of the electrodes is just as important (if not more so) than the surface area.  Some materials have more processes happening than simply the production of Brown's gas and energy is wasted by them.

Capacitance between plates might produce gas but in most cases there is an energy cost.  Without looking at a specific example it's impossible to analyze.

If I understand your explanation of the nature of your design it has two points.  One is to maximize volume and the other is to ?tune? it in an attempt to find the ideal freq to maximize Brown's gas.

From the link (U of Cambridge) below it seems the  best voltage might be an ac wave of a higher freq riding on a steady sweep of a slower rising dc wave (like a triangle wave).  I read the site kind of quickly and might have it wrong but since you have a better idea what you're looking for you most likely won't miss as much as I did.

Hope this helps.


Bessler007


http://www.cheng.cam.ac.uk/research/groups/electrochem/JAVA/electrochemistry/ELEC/contents.html


Cap-Z-ro

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Re: New Hexagon Cell Design: comments
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2008, 01:22:56 AM »

@ Dman,

Sorry for the late  return.  Re info on hho sources - there are a number of threads on here with great examples of production techniques and video links.

After seeing the bowl of water excited by manually applied sound vibrations producing small amounts of hho, I am of the mind that the key to on the spot hho lies in the combined application of resonant vibration and pulsed DC voltage.  Best of luck.

Regards...

Dman27

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Re: New Hexagon Cell Design: comments
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2008, 06:38:01 AM »
Yes, after reading through the course, you're right on the threshold voltage.  Even though that is known by testing and not understanding the theory behind it.  A couple of things seem to be pointed out in the course and after viewing dozens of videos and research they seem to jump out...

Again I'm interested in the merging of technologies using the most efficient techniques to lessen input power. 

On videos it "looked" to me that tubular cells were more efficient with a given voltage. It seems to bear true in the course that more H and O can be quickly removed from the Electrode by using convection methods to speed up the production of HHO (really exposing more of the plate by releasing the bubbles quicker) .

This would be the same with a hexagonal cell. 

 

Dman27,

I missed a point.  I think the electrolysis happens above a threshold voltage between electrodes.  If that's the case then as the voltage alternates there would be more than a point where no work would happen.  There could be the benefit of longevity for the cell but wrt gas production I can't see one.


Bessler007

Dman27

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Re: New Hexagon Cell Design: comments
« Reply #13 on: February 01, 2008, 06:40:13 AM »
Thanks, been checking out the videos and research materials. 

That is interesting about the sound vibrations, how could this be combined into generator?


@ Dman,

Sorry for the late  return.  Re info on hho sources - there are a number of threads on here with great examples of production techniques and video links.

After seeing the bowl of water excited by manually applied sound vibrations producing small amounts of hho, I am of the mind that the key to on the spot hho lies in the combined application of resonant vibration and pulsed DC voltage.  Best of luck.

Regards...

Cap-Z-ro

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Re: New Hexagon Cell Design: comments
« Reply #14 on: February 01, 2008, 11:36:46 PM »

Vibration of the plates is one method that springs to mind...and water is an excellent sound conductor.

Regards...