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Author Topic: My s1r9a9m9 replication!  (Read 434637 times)

Offline Super God

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #120 on: June 11, 2008, 04:58:02 PM »
Yeah, I mis-typed my post up there to make it seem like I wanted to replace the PLUGS with something else, wow sorry about that.  Yes, you are correct about everything you said, the fog actually explodes out of the water with a tremendous force as seen in the Graneau experiments.  I'll dig up that pdf for you, it was a good indication of what was happening in the cylinder.  Basically what I propose is to get rid of the coil and just use a high voltage power supply instead of a coil to generate the hv part of the ignition system.  The reasoning is when I gapped my plugs it would only jump some of the time, leading me to believe the coil was inconsistent in it's voltage output.  The low voltage system is still the same, 110 volts protected by some hv diodes.  I have bought a water mister to experiment with instead of feeding water directly into the intake via carburetor.

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #120 on: June 11, 2008, 04:58:02 PM »

Offline resonanceman

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #121 on: June 11, 2008, 08:31:01 PM »
Yeah, I mis-typed my post up there to make it seem like I wanted to replace the PLUGS with something else, wow sorry about that.  Yes, you are correct about everything you said, the fog actually explodes out of the water with a tremendous force as seen in the Graneau experiments.  I'll dig up that pdf for you, it was a good indication of what was happening in the cylinder.  Basically what I propose is to get rid of the coil and just use a high voltage power supply instead of a coil to generate the hv part of the ignition system.  The reasoning is when I gapped my plugs it would only jump some of the time, leading me to believe the coil was inconsistent in it's voltage output.  The low voltage system is still the same, 110 volts protected by some hv diodes.  I have bought a water mister to experiment with instead of feeding water directly into the intake via carburetor.


I am glad that  we agree on   the basics  of  this  idea  .....   

When  I am ready to start    I  think I am  going to start  with  the regular ignition  ........but I have been wondering  if something like  a transformer  could be made  to  step up the voltage  .........like maybe  5 or 6 to 1

I was thinking  of putting it right on the top of the plug .......that way  I don't have to worry  about  insulation as much . .....
there wouldn't  be  much  current ........but the low voltage should take care  of that  once the  channel is  open .


If nothing  else it would be fun to see how  wide of a gap I could make  it jump .



gary


Offline ninjadaniel

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #122 on: June 12, 2008, 07:33:07 AM »
One thought i had was to use pulstar plugs or nology hotwires, both of these products have capacitors that will prolong the HV and therefore the LV = more plasma.  I am going to commence bench tests next week and will post up my results here, perhaps some cool piccys!

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #122 on: June 12, 2008, 07:33:07 AM »
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Offline ninjadaniel

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #123 on: June 12, 2008, 08:17:06 AM »
Another question Super God,  how many of these diodes are you running in series? have you successfully blocked HV from a coil? those diodes are only rated at 1000v, coils supposedly do 20k-50k depending on frequency of engine (rpm).  If you did want to have constent HV to the plugs, you could always use a 30kvdc flyback from a crt monitor.  Or get a jacobs ladder kit (last night i successfully ran my car using the jacobs ladder kit instead of cars ignition system)

Offline resonanceman

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #124 on: June 12, 2008, 03:59:20 PM »
Another question Super God,  how many of these diodes are you running in series? have you successfully blocked HV from a coil? those diodes are only rated at 1000v, coils supposedly do 20k-50k depending on frequency of engine (rpm).  If you did want to have constent HV to the plugs, you could always use a 30kvdc flyback from a crt monitor.  Or get a jacobs ladder kit (last night i successfully ran my car using the jacobs ladder kit instead of cars ignition system)

Good  question  about the diodes  Ninjadanial   





I bet that  running  an engine using  a HV  transformer   would be  an interesting light show  if you  had a   clear   distributor  cap



gary

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #124 on: June 12, 2008, 03:59:20 PM »
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Offline xbox hacker

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #125 on: June 12, 2008, 10:56:20 PM »
Hello everyone,

i am looking to start my own Plasma experiments. But i have some basic questions i would like to ask. I have been looking at other forums and groups, and their seems to be lots of different way to get started.

Super God: your schematics refer to using 110v and 40kv.....

Tero: uses 110vac into a bridge rec, then its similar to Super God's

Capacitor70: 230v into transformer to 12v then into a transformer to 230v (for isolation i guess)

S1r's: Relay with HV (but know one knows where to get the relays..) and does not use a bridge rec.

Remoi: Just like Tero, but more up to date.

mdbreedi: FANTASTIC video on youtube.

So i guess what i am getting at is..what direction to take... i would say that a 230v system is not for me, i would like to keep it to a 110v system. SO do we want straight 110v with low amps or use 110v to make it DC with high amps? I am surrounded with HV, i work on arcade monitors, i used one to make a jacobs type ladder.

thanx!
-bill

Offline ninjadaniel

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #126 on: June 13, 2008, 06:29:10 AM »
I think the s1r9a9m9 set-up uses HV to switch the relay on/off which passes 110v to the plugs, however because of the high voltage, i bet it jumps from inside the relay to the plug which is why he was getting readings of 24,000v with 4amps or whatever.   You dont need relays as the spark gap theoretically completes the circuit,  protecting the inverter is the hard part.

HV Diodes are available on ebay for fairly high prices, id just really like to know how many amps the ign coil produces with its (so called) 30,000v spark.  Based on calculations it would be 0.002 amps or 2mA, therefore a 1amp diode is overkill and 10ma 20kv diodes are very affordable.   Anybody have any idea how to measure the amps and voltage of an ignition coil?  Ive noted a CRT flyback rated at 30kv makes a far more powerful spark than ign coils suggested to have the same volts.

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #126 on: June 13, 2008, 06:29:10 AM »
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Offline capacitor70

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #127 on: June 13, 2008, 06:53:50 AM »
A car the  ignition  system  can work well for the  high  voltage and  timing  control
A common  110 V inverter  is used for the  extra current .

Once  the  high  voltage  jumps the   gap in the spark plug  it   creates  a  plasma " channel " that is  relativly  low resistance .........  the much  lower voltage  can   follow this   path as long as the high  voltage maintains  the  channel
The high  voltage is in effect the switch  for  the lower  voltage .


It is the lower  voltage  ( high current )   that   flashes  the water  into  steam .

gary

Offline Shanti

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #128 on: June 13, 2008, 09:32:37 AM »
Once  the  high  voltage  jumps the   gap in the spark plug  it   creates  a  plasma " channel " that is  relativly  low resistance .........  the much  lower voltage  can   follow this   path as long as the high  voltage maintains  the  channel
The high  voltage is in effect the switch  for  the lower  voltage .

It is the lower  voltage  ( high current )   that   flashes  the water  into  steam .

Well I agree almost completely with you, except for one point. The High-Voltage usually doesn't have to be maintained to keep the arc, for the plasma channel, which is a good conductor is fed by the current from the low voltage source, and usually will remain if the current is strong enough and the voltage not too small. Here in the water explosion this could be different for I think the water explosion shockwave could be so strong as to extinguish the arc.
BTW: In my opinion this is nothing else than a Trigatron (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trigatron) where one does just connect the high and the low voltage source to the same electrode. But then you have to make sure, that the HV-Trigger doesn't destroy your low voltage source. This could be a problem in my eyes, for if you take a diode then it has to be rated HV, but at the same time, it needs to withstand a lot of amps (the more the better) for the conduction of the LV-Current. The more current you can deliver in a short time, the stronger should be the bang...
Well, Britt's AEROPS-Engine is quite the same, but he doesn't use water, but inert gases. But except that, he uses the same principle. But there he uses a "normal" Trigatron Scheme.

BTW, I just calculated for myself how much energy one could use for a working car engine. Maybe some are interested, therefore here are my calculations:

* Let's assume the engine runs at 3000 RPM = 50 RPS = 25 Firings per Second for each cylinder
  (a 4-stroke engine needs 720? per cycle)

* Let's assume the car has 6 cylinders, that makes 6*25 = 150 Firings per Second in total.

* Let's assume the alternator has a power of 3kW (= 4HP). Thats makes 3000W : 150Hz = 20 J per Firing

* Let's assume we are in Europe ( ;D) and have an european inverter which gives 230 VAC -> rectified -> 320 VDC

* Then the capacitor size for one firing should be C=2E/U^2=2*20J/320V^2=390uF

This is just for a rough estimate. The capacitor would not become completely discharged in reality, but on the other side one needs power for a HV Spark...
« Last Edit: June 13, 2008, 10:29:04 AM by Shanti »

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #128 on: June 13, 2008, 09:32:37 AM »
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Offline Shanti

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #129 on: June 13, 2008, 01:31:07 PM »
BTW, just an idea.

It could be interesting to test if making a magnetic Plasma Trap during the discharge would increase the Bang.This could be easily done by wiring a coil around the plasma region and letting the LV-Discharge first through this coil, prior to the water. This should compress the plasma and if the coil is wound correctly could even trap the plasma so that it gets hindered at going out of the spark plug, while the discharge is in progress. Maybe this could increase the efficiency even more.
I think I will test this tomorrow...

Another idea:

If one puts a high voltage on the water, (connect only one side of the HV source, so that no current is flowing) the water gets ionized and will then be repelled from the plug. I think if the HV is high enough and the amount of water small it will immediately spray out due to the repellant electrostatic forces. If then one would fire the HV (let current flow) and afterwards the LV (a lot of current) it could also be beneficial for the plasma explosion, if the water is finely dispersed in the room when the plasma is built.

Offline Super God

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #130 on: June 14, 2008, 03:51:42 AM »
Another question Super God,  how many of these diodes are you running in series? have you successfully blocked HV from a coil? those diodes are only rated at 1000v, coils supposedly do 20k-50k depending on frequency of engine (rpm).  If you did want to have constent HV to the plugs, you could always use a 30kvdc flyback from a crt monitor.  Or get a jacobs ladder kit (last night i successfully ran my car using the jacobs ladder kit instead of cars ignition system)

Yes they did block the hv, I used about 10 in series as good insurace, the gap will breakdown well below that, at about 2 kv or so under normal conditions, so it never even gets close to 30,000 volts.  Each 1n4007 is rated for 1000 volts blocking reverse voltage. 

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #130 on: June 14, 2008, 03:51:42 AM »
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Offline capacitor70

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #131 on: June 14, 2008, 04:52:55 PM »
Single Supply HV discharge circuit

Initially all capacitor voltage comes across spark plug, makes plasma channel, then all low value capacitor gets dischared soon,
High value capacitor maintains around 300V High current across plug for longer time this way it gives huge blast.

I tried this once and, all 4007 diodes are blown out in first attempt. I don't have higher rating diodes....

Offline Super God

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #132 on: June 15, 2008, 07:56:55 PM »
How long does it take the capacitors to charge?

Offline Shanti

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #133 on: June 16, 2008, 12:04:03 AM »
Initially all capacitor voltage comes across spark plug, makes plasma channel, then all low value capacitor gets dischared soon,
High value capacitor maintains around 300V High current across plug for longer time this way it gives huge blast.

I tried this once and, all 4007 diodes are blown out in first attempt. I don't have higher rating diodes....

I think this is a really good idea, doing it like that, to merge the HV and LV part in the same cicuit! (doing it serially with a lot of small caps which are responsible for the HV and one big for the long LV)
The only problem could be, like you saw, that all of the elements have to withstand quite a strong current and surges.
If one would make the same circuit, but in a MARX-Generator layout, one could get rid of the diodes, just as a remark...

And as I calculated above, if your discharge with your current circuit (around 340uF) gets the same amount of bang as some gaz in a cylinder would, then it would be possible to make an easy engine conversion...

Offline capacitor70

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Re: My s1r9a9m9 replication!
« Reply #134 on: June 16, 2008, 05:36:01 AM »
It takes 4 to 5 sec for charging, isolation transformer have less current rating this is main reson for larger charging time

6 Stages of multiplier are used
LV Cap = 330uF 400V
HV Cap = 2.2uF 400V
Diodes = 6A4 (400V 6Amps)

See the effect Without cap and with cap

I have put injection on top of spark plug, to check what happen if I give pressure to water
I dont see any pressure which push injection upward.

Pressure is important to drive engine ? I made any mistake.. ???
 ??? Its only huge light No heating

 

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