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Solid States Devices => solid state devices => Topic started by: allcanadian on January 22, 2008, 11:56:53 PM

Title: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on January 22, 2008, 11:56:53 PM
Here are some neat scopeshots of a similar LC circuit, input is a single 12v impulse.
Picture 1 is a single wire from the oscilloscope attached to the (-) side of the cap, set at 10v/div- 100 microseconds.
Picture 2 is a single wire from the oscilloscope attached to the (+) side of the cap, set at 10v/div-100 microseconds.
Pictue 3 is both oscilloscope leads attached to the cap, set at 50v/div-100 microseconds.

In picture 1 and 2 we can see one waveform as it is transformed into another waveform, what I found odd is not the fact that the impulse was transformed, but the underlying frequency inherent in the oscillation. In picture 3 we see what appears to be two waveforms superimposed on one another, but it should be understood that we have two wires connected across the cap. One waveform, an inductive discharge current is incoming another waveform unlike the first is leaving. What is odd is that we are dealing with a single 12v impulse, why is a 50v waveform heading back to the source battery? Why is there an oscillating current from a single inductive discharge moving in one direction ---- into the cap. Why is this oscillation inherent in the conventional current leaving the cap for the source battery?. I don't believe they taught THIS in science class   ;D

I would like to expand on the scopeshot #3 I posted above, considering what we see and what must happen.
-- If the (+) oscilloscope probe is connected to the (+) post of a battery, the (-) probe to the (-) battery post we will see a (+) voltage on the scope above the zero boundary.
-- If we reverse the probe connections, that is (+) probe to (-) battery terminal we see a negative voltage on the scope below the zero boundary, but this is not "negative" electricity ---- only the voltage polarity has changed.
-- If we measure an alternating current we see the "sine" waveform, again there is NO "negative" electricity here the current has only changed direction, it alternates back and forth as does the polarity of the voltage.

Now concerning scopeshot #3, the inductive discharge (250+v) is alternating, we see this in scopeshot #1 and #2 as well using only 1 wire from the scope. But this is supposedly a single inductive discharge from a single 12v impulse? the inductive discharge waveform is in oscillation BEFORE it enters the capacitor, that is changing direction --- alternating, but with what?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Bessler007 on January 23, 2008, 09:00:01 AM
What is the relationship between voltage readings (as you indicate with your o'scope pics) and magnetic fields in four dimensional time/space geometry?


Bessler007
mib HQ
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Bessler007 on January 23, 2008, 10:38:22 AM
. . .
The answer to this question is actually quite simple.  Unfortunately you will have to leave the path paved by conventional science if it is truly your desire to comprehend it, as the scientific community (humanity as a whole) are not prepared (yet) to accept the reality of an underlying fundamental mechanism which is beyond the reaches of the five senses.. . .

Regards

Hello Erfinder,

Your point above is so absurd I almost didn't respond but then I thought, "what the heck."  Now my suspicion is conventional science attempts to go well beyond the 5 senses in looking at (for instance) red shift to understand the expansion of the universe or at the other end using magnetic resonance imaging to "see" the structure of human anatomy to an incredible level of resolution.  There are other examples of the extension of the human senses.

What underlying fundamental mechanism are you talking about?  What do you imagine the "path paved by conventional science" to be?


Bessler007
mib HQ

ps:  don't make me sic the black helicopters on you.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Bessler007 on January 23, 2008, 04:38:44 PM
I've been waiting all these long years holding my breath for your permission.  Thanks so much.  You have no idea how much this means to me.


Bessler007
mib HQ

edit:  At some point in time your imagination should touch down in reality.  That scientific path you suggest abandoning attempts to correlate the imagination to reality.  I wouldn't recommend abandoning it.  Since I've been given permission to think what I want, I think I'll continue to think your proposition of "leaving that paved path of conventional science" as an absurd idea.  You might try and differentiate between yourself and your ideas.  I've insulted your idea but you take it personally.

Now I'll insult you.  You are a small minded person by reason of your inability to distinguish between yourself and your ideas.  See the difference?

Enjoy your stroll into absurdity.  Drop bread crumbs so you can find your way back to reality.

. . .
Think what you want.   ;D
. . .


Regards

Heck, since I've already dispatched the black helicopters I only feel it right to explain how you can avoid their tracking system.  You need to take two tin foil hats and a long extension cord.  Wrap one stripped bare wire around one hat clock-wise and the other end counter clock-wise on the other hat.  Now insert one hat inside the other and plug it in.

The old boys at HQ are a little frustrated with this new technique of what they jokingly refer to as the aluminum naughty.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on January 23, 2008, 04:57:36 PM
@Erfinder
I have come to see many things differently in the last week, more than anything the role of capacitance. Also as you had mentioned the roles of Inductance and Capacitance as they relate to one another, there special relationship. The most exciting prospect to date however came from a most unlikely place, a 12 inch - single turn of 1/4" Diameter copper tubing as my primary coil  ;D.
When I see this in action I understand the absolute genius in teslas coil, and nobody seems to have a clue just how far Tesla had mastered his art of electrostatic induction or the secrets it holds.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: AhuraMazda on January 23, 2008, 05:16:52 PM
Also as you had mentioned the roles of Inductance and Capacitance as they relate to one another, there special relationship.

@allcanadian,
A few posts back, I came to conclusion that a capacitor is very much the inverse of an inductor.
This was confirmed by another member. Please share your finding in this respect.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Bessler007 on January 23, 2008, 05:47:03 PM
I just finished reading everything you've ever posted here.  I feel so alive now with this new found freedom to "think what ever I want to."

You're an even smaller minded person than I first imagined by reason of an inability to distinguish your ideas from those of others; parading around like some ascended master cloaked in a tank circuit of a scant capacity and induced understanding of other's ideas resisted by the BS of your very essence.

Truth is if you actually knew what you were talking about you'd build something and prove it.  Smiley faces don't prove squat.  I think my search for the truth of  you has ended.

You know who you are.


Bessler007
mib HQ
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Bessler007 on January 23, 2008, 06:02:17 PM
allcanadian,

How did you measure electrostatic induction?


Bessler007
mib HQ




. . .
When I see this in action I understand the absolute genius in teslas coil, and nobody seems to have a clue just how far Tesla had mastered his art of electrostatic induction or the secrets it holds.
. . .
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on January 23, 2008, 06:06:59 PM
@AhuraMazda
Quote
A few posts back, I came to conclusion that a capacitor is very much the inverse of an inductor.
This was confirmed by another member. Please share your finding in this respect.

I would call them complementary components, like brother and sister, one (L) stores energy outward -- the other (C) inward. Together they do what each alone cannot, so they have a special relationship. I think we have not given capacitance and the electric field the consideration it deserves which is what much of this thread will probably cover.

I have a few more pictures ;D
Pic 1 is QC, (Quicky coil) I know it is a monstrosity but it performs its function marginally well.
Pic 2 is a close-up of the coil windings which are not truely bi-filiar as Tesla prescribes and the wire is too large and too little of it in the secondary --- but it is a coil, just not a very good one.
Pic 3 is interesting, this is a scope shot using one wire of the secondary to one wire of the oscilloscope, the thick primary is shorted with a jumper across, and is fed from one wire attached to the LC circuit. Everything is open circuit (one wire) or shorted with a jumper but still produces the interesting waveform on the scope. Keep in mind this is done with a single short duration 12v impulse into the inductor of the LC circuit. The settings are 10v/div @ 100 microseconds, so at this point we could assume there is an electric field at work which needs more study. Next we will attach an oscillator in resonance with the primary LC circuit to produce a continuous series of oscillations, I will be using the method Tesla originally used consisting of a set of contacts above the inductance actuated by the magnetic field.

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Bessler007 on January 23, 2008, 10:08:16 PM
It well could be you are referencing what you imagine to be an inductive discharge to the rf (10kHz) broadcasting from your coil and being picked up by the antenna of your other probe.  You think  you're only using one wire but you're using both.  That sneaky rf is totally fm, dude.  That's a sort of magic.

It also well could be that the induction you imagine to be electrostatic is neither that or magnetic induction.


Bessler007
mib HQ


. . .
Now concerning scopeshot #3, the inductive discharge (250+v) is alternating, we see this in scopeshot #1 and #2 as well using only 1 wire from the scope. But this is supposedly a single inductive discharge from a single 12v impulse? the inductive discharge waveform is in oscillation BEFORE it enters the capacitor, that is changing direction --- alternating, but with what?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Frederic2k1 on January 23, 2008, 10:51:11 PM
@ allcanadian

Do you use a apark-gap like Tesla did it in some of his projects ?

In "A pratical guido to "Free Energy" Devices" they mention, that the key to OU is a disruptive discharge...

http://www.panaceauniversity.org/D3.pdf
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on January 24, 2008, 06:24:54 PM
@ bessler007

I thought it was necessary to know what Im dealing with and in that respect I have built Bill Beatys rediculously sensitive charge detector, I have tied an opto-isolator to my mosfet with an open base wire, the opto feeds an LED for visual reference and feeds an opamp to convert the signal for a frequency generator and interface with my computer microphone. This signal can then be used in a spectrum analyser program to measure electrostatic pulses and only electrostatic pulses as magnetic fields and EM have no effect on the open base of the mosfet. I can detect a person dragging there feet on the carpet 3 feet away! now thats cool. I still need to mount the circuit in a metal insulated case to reduce all interference then I can post some pictures.

@Frederic2k1
I use a disruptive discharge from an inductor but have not used spark gaps persay, the arcing contacts of my relay could however act as a spark gap, once resonance is acieved this arcing should stop which is more effecient.

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on January 24, 2008, 07:05:46 PM
electrostatic induction! thats a good word. Ill have to use that more often,

@AhuraMazda

Your assumptions about the capacitors role vs the inductor are spot on. I would suggest looking up the formulas for capacitive reactance, and inductive reactance, you will be interested to note that they are exact inverses to each other, perfect mirror opposites. If you do not know what reactance is, it is the resistance to charge with relation to frequency applied.

Capacitors offer less reactance or also called impedance (measured in good old ohms) in higher frequency situations, while inductors

Offer more reactance, or impedance (measured in ohms) in higher frequency situations.

You will also be interested to note that when used in combination, they oscillate energy between them if given a push.

This is teslas secret, how he achieved frequencies many many times higher than mechanical convenience would allow.

I suggest reading up on the very basics of these two devices, on impedance, on LC circuits, both parallel, and in series, absorb all you can.

@bessler007
Yay! another interesting character in the OU soap opera! Keep up the good work, always need conflict, the spice of life really.

@allcanadian
The spark gap is a circuit controller nothing more, it makes and breaks the connection. The gap itself is not necessary.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on January 24, 2008, 07:39:40 PM
@armagdn03
I am very sure you know much more about this than you are willing to tell us, I just put 2 and 2 together in the thread next to this one Patent 512340. HV/HF and the LC relationship is the answer I have been looking for and Tesla has been telling us this all along, we just haven't been listening.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Bessler007 on January 24, 2008, 07:43:03 PM
:)  Conflict might spice life but it also has a more practical function.  It causes growth.

Tesla's capacitive inductor is interesting.

Bessler007
Cmdr, Black Helicopter Squadron
mib HQ

ps:  I have my eye on the aluminum naughty


. . .
@bessler007
Yay! another interesting character in the OU soap opera! Keep up the good work, always need conflict, the spice of life really.
. . .
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: AhuraMazda on January 25, 2008, 01:34:36 PM
Now that we are in agreement about the "mirrored" similarities of inductors and capacitors;
If we abruptly interrupt the current flow through an inductor, we get a cemf therefore,
if we abruptly remove the voltage across a capacitor do we get a reaction similar to a mirror of cemf?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on January 25, 2008, 05:36:14 PM
@AhuraMazda
In my scope shot I see two currents, the inductor produces an inductive discharge current of over 250v, this current charges the capacitor. The charged capacitor then discharges back into the inductor, the 40v waveform.
So we could say both L and C are transformers----
-L transforms conventional current into high potential inductive discharge current
-C transforms high potential inductive discharge current into conventional current

I think this relates to Teslas radiant energy reciever, there was an article on teslas "new discovery" that an LC circuit in oscillation would change frequency as a capacity was changed in elevation. I attributed this to the changing potential, earth having a "static" potential of 100v/meter. But I feel there is something Im not seeing here, something very important and probably quite simple I haven't figured out.
There is also some remarks armagdn03 made regarding "kicks" and capacitance of a single wire I found very interesting, how can a single wire have capacitance? I think the wire may be one "plate" and the space surrounding the conductor the other "plate" of a capacitor.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: barbosi on January 25, 2008, 07:22:42 PM

- C - converts the high potential discharge current into high frequency high potential discharge current!


In agreement, this was considered common knowledge in his time as Tesla said.
If time is too short for reading about what he said, just think about it.
Two vertical tubes containing water at different levels [different potentials] are suddenly connected in the bottom with a rubber tube. How is the flow? oscillating? Now about the "high frequency" statement... think about a different liquid with different density... Funny thing though, electric current or electric potentials as have been thought, seem not to care about gravity.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Ren on January 26, 2008, 09:57:46 PM


The development of conventional current is out of the question in the local circuit, it must be remembered the working circuit is where the conventional current is to be developed and the load attached. The working circuit begins at the secondary.  It is here in the working circuit where a larger capacity capacitor is placed, this large capacity steps down the high frequency high potential discharge current into a low frequency, low potential (conventional) current. 


Is this how the load is isolated from the source? An open path circuit ..??

Your comments on time I found interesting. They made me sit back and think. I have always seen time as a measurement only, like hey its lunch time :D. And if it is more? Are these pulses and waveforms a function of time, or does it flow all around us, and the waveforms imersed within?

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Ren on January 27, 2008, 01:36:44 AM
Thankyou Erfinder. Funnily enough I have all the parts at home bar the transformer. I think I may just need to go and do just that...."think" that is.

I will compile and tinker (studying the patent of course) and see what I come up with.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: lancaIV on January 27, 2008, 02:26:01 AM
To "Ren": your definition is not right !
Aprove, at first ,your own statement,then you should begin with different experiments,
"primary" and "secondary" related !

Best wishes
                  CdL

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Schpankme on January 27, 2008, 08:20:42 AM
What is the relationship between ... four dimensional time/space geometry?

not prepared (yet) to accept the reality of an underlying fundamental mechanism which is beyond the reaches of the five senses.
The concept of time...


You people sound like a fortune cookie.
Time is a measurement, just like Speed and Distance.

- Schpankme
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: M@rcel on January 27, 2008, 09:16:31 PM
Time is our invention to augment the 3D limitation of our senses. In other words: We use time as a substitute of us not being able to see/sense the actual 4th dimension.

So, imagine a deflated balloon at t=0, half inflated at t=1 and fully inflated at t=2. When looking at this with 4D senses, one would see all states of this balloon at once. Because of the 3D limitation of our senses, we introduce time to order all occurences of this one balloon. Imagine we observe a half inflated balloon with our 3D senses (t=1), we cannot look back to t=0 and we cannot look forward to t=2, we only sense the 3D projection of the 4D balloon. Using 4D senses, however, we can see all occurences of the balloon at once. To a 3D-limited-observer, this feels like looking at the past, present and future all at once.

I think... 8)
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Schpankme on January 27, 2008, 09:29:09 PM
Time is our invention to augment the 3D limitation of our senses. In other words: We use time as a substitute of us not being able to see/sense the actual 4th dimension.

So what your saying is:

 o We use time as a substitute of us not being able to see/sense the actual 4th dimension.

 o We use distance as a substitute of us not being able to see/sense the actual 4th dimension.

 o We use speed as a substitute of us not being able to see/sense the actual 4th dimension.

 o We use other measurements as a substitute of us not being able to see/sense the actual 4th dimension.

 o We use theroy as a substitute of us not being able to see/sense the actual 4th dimension.

- Schpankme
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: M@rcel on January 27, 2008, 09:33:21 PM
Distance? I don't think so but speed has a time component, so yes.

btw I edited my previous post in  an attempt to clarify better
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Schpankme on January 27, 2008, 09:55:45 PM
Time is our invention to augment the 3D limitation of our senses. So, imagine a deflated balloon at t=0, half inflated at t=1 and fully inflated at t=2.

M@rcel,

So this 4th Dimension (your independent variable) just became 'the' ever changing CLOCK ?  < -- You're detecting change; please don't fool yourselves into thinking your measuring something physical; which us 3D limited folks call time.

- Schpankme

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on January 27, 2008, 10:25:13 PM
@Erfinder

OK, I got all my parts but the transformer is 240vac to 24vac, but I do not think this will hurt. If so, I will find the right one. I have only one question. Actually the question will probably answer itself but here goes anyways.

In your circuit, there is nothing apparent to drive, like a light bulb or a small motor. I am sure you did not forget to include this because it is not required. So this project is to see something operate on its own, maybe without depleting the battery, but not also running a load. I guess I just answered my own question. So let' start.


Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: M@rcel on January 27, 2008, 10:25:41 PM
So this 4th Dimension (your independent variable) just became 'the' ever changing CLOCK ?  < -- You're detecting change; please don't fool yourselves into thinking your measuring something physical; which us 3D limited folks call time.
I don't think that that is what I am saying, not sure though. What I mean is that we, at a single moment, see only a 3D projection of a 4D object, using time to properly(?) synchronise all these 3D images.

I can imagine that a change in 3D can mean just a relocation of a 4D object along the, for us, hidden dimension
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on January 28, 2008, 12:16:14 AM
@Erfinder

OK, I got all my parts but the transformer is 240vac to 24vac, but I do not think this will hurt. If so, I will find the right one. I have only one question. Actually the question will probably answer itself but here goes anyways.

In your circuit, there is nothing apparent to drive, like a light bulb or a small motor. I am sure you did not forget to include this because it is not required. So this project is to see something operate on its own, maybe without depleting the battery, but not also running a load. I guess I just answered my own question. So let' start.




In the circuit diagram, there is always a load. And according to the physics of the components in question to be driven, a change will be placed on the driving circuit. Many times loads throw the driving circuit out of ressonance, such loads tend to be inductive, such as wire wound motors, Other loads resistive which lower the Q, or the time the secondary circuit oscillates. take your load into consideration when building a perfect circuit.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Ren on January 28, 2008, 03:59:24 AM
wattsup, I am studying the patent too, although I am not ready to replicate it entirely yet. My (basic) understanding is that it is more about the transformation of power rather than the utilization of that power (which can follow once one understands the principals).

I am thinking out loud, so please forgive as I am sure you're further ahead and able to comprehend it better than me.

I am leaning towards the relays replacing the drive coils of the fan pictured in the circuit, with the button to trip the relays.
Power to the primary is interupted by the switch+relays and flows through the smaller cap.
Secondary would flow the high voltage potential into the large cap, compressing it so to speak into a lower voltage/higher current.

I am still not certain of the diode, but perhaps I will see it better with the parts infront of me.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on January 28, 2008, 05:16:22 AM
nice Ren! Now figure ressonance into the equation!
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on January 28, 2008, 07:36:39 AM
@All

This will take time. There are two DPDT relays, that makes 4 potential relay switches with twelve potential destinations per on/off. There are many many possible mixes with two relays, a transformer, two caps, a diode and a battery. Lots of potential mixes.

So I started by replicating the Tesla Ozone Patent #568177 by using only one pole of one relay. I used the relay coil as the patents motor coil and worked my way off both ends.

I put a circuit diagram below. Sorry if it looks elementary but I am not too good with circuits and EE.

When the button was pushed to on, the relay would rattle. My voltmeter was on each side of the secondary capacitor. The voltage went up to about 26 volts at about 1 volt per second, and then it still went up but in increments of .1 volts then .01 volts. I stopped it at 29 volts cause it made too much noise for this late hour so I'll try it again tomorrow and see just how high it will go. Don't forget this is a 240 to 24 volts AC transformer.

This is just the beginning. What a panic. I have to get the second relay to double my oscillations, maybe get more juice. With one relay, I think I can do reverse polarity switching so I'll try that also. Maybe brew me some AC.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Thaelin on January 28, 2008, 08:52:47 AM
@ wattsup
   In your circuit, you place the primary as the primary and to obtain hv here, you would need to reverse the role of these windings. In on the 24v side and output on the 230v side.
   I did notice that you made the assumption that the caps are electrolytic, not sure that would be the case. Knowing somewhat how erfinder thinks, he would follow tesla and be nonpolar at least on the 47uf.
   As for the relays, I can only surmise that they will be used in a mechanical oscilator function. Just how escapes me at this time. More playing around will tell. One will oscilate and turn on the other to perform the shorting function of the charged cap to the "primary (24v side)".

   As erfinder stated, if given out right you will not value it as much as if you have to earn it the hard way. Consider some one who wins a lottery and how fast its gone compared to if you have to earn it by hard work.

thaelin
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on January 28, 2008, 03:50:08 PM
To make a solenoid oscillate....

There will be several connection as follows:

Two connections to the electromagnetic coil, generally at least one reed lead, and two contacts which touch the reed. One is automatically connected in the relays off position, and the other is contacted when the relay is turned on.

Connect the relay so that the contact that is connected to the reed when off goes to one pole of the power source. Now connect the reed contact to one side of the electromagnet. Now connect the other contact on the electromagnet to the other side of the power source.

In this configuration, the power is turned on, since the electromagnet is connected to the reed, which starts out completing the circuit, the magnet will fire, pulling the reed away from its contact, breaking its connection turning it off, returning the reed to its contact to turn the magnet on again.


Careful with connecting multiples, as using more than one will give a more erratic frequency (you will notice that it is erratic to begin with). Once you have the voltage high enough on the secondary, good ol spark gaps work well as circuit controllers, but the voltage should be at least 3000 to give a breakdown of 1mm of air.
(edit: i did not see erfinders last post, forget the spark gaps till you have what you have down)

Also, recall that in these types of transformers the change in time of current produces your voltage, this means that you want the arc in the controller to extinguish as quick and establish as quick as possible. Tesla gave many clues on how this could be done.

also, notice that frequency of oscillation is somewhat dependant on the power through the coil, up to saturation, then no difference. Try different ways to give yourself a wider range of frequency choice, (hint, look at the spring)

Using these devices I have gotten freq ranges over 15,000, to 20,000, but they are simple good for learning as they are. I will post a circuit for a kick ass mechanical controller when I am back home. Remember speed is not absolutely necessary, harmonic relationships are, between what and what is up to you to find out! (its not hard)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9g2AGs9_JU

This is a simple replication I threw together a while back with a home made "relay" or "linnear motor" the Flyback represents the primary and secondary in one package.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on January 28, 2008, 05:02:21 PM
Here is a modified circuit controller I built (now disassembled) which was quite slick

the operation is the same as the relay, however there is another coil added that pulls in an opposite direction as the first. When contact is made one side of the reed, it is drawn away like in the relay, however upon being drawn away, it contacts another contact, and an opposing coil pulls it back into its origional position. With this, you cannot even hardly see the movement, incredibly fast. note, only one coil is used at a time.

(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb275/tortuga0303/Picture002.jpg)

This is the magnet setup without the reed,

(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb275/tortuga0303/Picture003.jpg)

This is with reed in place with no contacts shown

(http://i210.photobucket.com/albums/bb275/tortuga0303/Picture005.jpg)

here one can see the minute spacing between the magnets and the reed.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on January 28, 2008, 05:24:53 PM
@Thaelin

Thanks for both posts.

Pulsing the primary brought the voltage up to 31.15 and it increased slowly by .01 increments.

Now I tried pulsing the secondary, just switching the primary and secondary connections, and voltage shot up to 90 volts rather quickly in .1 volts increments. I stopped it a 90 volts for now because my capacitor is 75 vdc rated.

While operating the pulses, I put the meter on AC and there is nothing. Just a .004 volts so there is no AC while operating.

I have left the other N/O terminal of the relay open because I noticed that the relay pulsing is so fast that the relay Common does not have "time" to contact it, so basically, if pulsing these relay, the N/O terminals are useless. That's good because if it is useless for me, it must be useless for Erfinders' also, and this just canceled 4 potential variables from the equation. 

@armagdn03

Thanks for your input. The diagram I show above is doing the relay pulsing. I have noticed placing a small neo near the relay will alter the pulsing rate.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on January 28, 2008, 05:39:50 PM
@Thaelin

Thanks for both posts.

Pulsing the primary brought the voltage up to 31.15 and it increased slowly by .01 increments.

Now I tried pulsing the secondary, just switching the primary and secondary connections, and voltage shot up to 90 volts rather quickly in .1 volts increments. I stopped it a 90 volts for now because my capacitor is 75 vdc rated.

While operating the pulses, I put the meter on AC and there is nothing. Just a .004 volts so there is no AC while operating.

I have left the other N/O terminal of the relay open because I noticed that the relay pulsing is so fast that the relay Common does not have "time" to contact it, so basically, if pulsing these relay, the N/O terminals are useless. That's good because if it is useless for me, it must be useless for Erfinders' also, and this just canceled 4 potential variables from the equation. 

@armagdn03

Thanks for your input. The diagram I show above is doing the relay pulsing. I have noticed placing a small neo near the relay will alter the pulsing rate.

Interesting observations, I think you will change your mind about the AC component in time, remember, ac does not need to cross the zero point. perhaps you could more accurately call it AC with a DC bias, or DC with an AC component (hint: where do these occur? at what rates, why?)

Also, yes adding a magnet will alter the rate of contact, however I think you will find it to be mostly useless with the relay. The magnet, and the plate being pulled by the magnet are ferromagnetic, which means that they will act strongly with the neo, this is not helpful here, if you wanted to try magnetic quencing you would need to make sure the magnets are near the contacts only (which are made out of magnetically "safe" copper with a hard metal coating, and do not affect the electromagnet. This will not alter your freq, but it will alter its quenching rate which is most desirable,
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Schpankme on January 29, 2008, 12:10:10 AM
... the AC component in time ... DC with an AC component (hint: where do these occur? at what rates, why?)

The AC component wave form implies part of another signal.  DC bias ?

- Schpankme
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on January 29, 2008, 02:08:02 PM
Using my above diagram but with the secondary and primary switched, I went out and got a slew of 47uf capacitors having different AC voltages as follows;

400, 315, 250, 100, 100, 63, 25, 25, 16, 16, 16,

The repeating numbers indicate same cap voltage but different brand. Of these the 25v cap works the best offering a faster voltage rise time off the primary and an action on the relay that permitted the common terminal to contact the N/O terminal. So now I can use the N/O terminal. Rats.

I also found a 10,000uf 50vac cap for the primary side. It was the only one they had otherwise I would have taken two in parallel to achieve the maximum of what Erfinder recommended.

Trying these caps one by one and other values permitted me to see the relay function change from;

A - immediate very fast pulsing - 400 to 100 (shitty or no voltage rise)
B - very slow pulsing for about 10 seconds and then gradual increase of pulse to very fast, (not bad voltage rise)
C - steady medium fast pulsing, slow enough for the common to hit the N/O terminal. (best voltage rise) 25

I think I will have to make a small 47uf capacitor selector bank cause I may need to change the cap at varying loads.

Also, putting a load on the primary output side does change the relay pulsing speed slightly at A and B but no effect on C. You can sense how the transformers is working with the different caps and relay reaction.

The requirement of a 240 to 12 vac transformers is not crazy either. I imagine I would be getting more amps with that one compared to my 240 - 24 vac transformer. I looked again today for such a transformer but did not find any. I checked for over 30 minutes looking at all types. Most transformers of the required 8 amps are big but they also have multiple secondaries, which would be a waste to have to energize that much mass and then only draw back out the 12 volts. So I will have to find one somewhere else.

OK, I found a toroidal transformer here - model 182P12
http://www.hammondmfg.com/182.htm
Plus they have regular transformers so  will be ordering it soon.

From what I can tell of the way it works, using the true Tesla ozone patent mode shown above, Tesla did not putz around. His motor was probably turning at high rpm since his on/off was via a 100% disengaged rotary contact. He just kept spiking the primary and loading that secondary and the secondary popped ozone producing arks. Get to the point, do it, et voila.

I realize now that doing this with one relay is not fast enough to produce juice fast enough, so here comes the second relay that will do the sparky when the first relay is not. Alternating the spark will double the virtual rpm. Hey I'm even practicing for my VAR.

The craziest thing I have seen is that my battery, a 12vdc 7amp (my 4 amp was already dead so I'm charging it), has stayed at 12.80 - 12.90 volts. That's the encouraging side since I know the amount of time I used it to do testing should have dropped the battery down at least .5 - .8 vdc.

There are so many f&**&n possibilities with this thing and the learning curve is so profound that I will stick with this project realizing that in the span of many months, after playing with it for the 100th time, I will have learned more then I know now. Yo.

If I needed just one "hint" from Erfinder, I would ask how many of the relay poles are used in the system, since adding just one could send testing in a really wide range of directions. But I guess that's the point. Hint, Hint.

So, who else is trying this?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: am1ll3r on January 29, 2008, 04:06:09 PM
Quote
So, who else is trying this?

I'm gathering parts...but my work and family take up most of my time at the moment
Keep up the good work  ;)

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on January 29, 2008, 05:18:41 PM
the 47 uF is the ozone plates

the 10,000 uF is the large condenser shown in the patent

The relays that Erfinder used are DPDT - two sets of contact - he probably has then alternately switching on back and forth - toggling - like a multivibrator.  Like the energy is "compressed" and "expanded" back and forth as it moves through the system - very interesting.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on January 29, 2008, 07:33:32 PM
@Grumpy

Smart observation. This means I could be using the wrong cap in the wrong place. I'll test this. Hey if you have any brainiac ideas on how to set-up the circuit, I would appreciate any help here. I just ordered a 240-12v 10 amp toroidal transformer (pricey). Supposedly, such transformers will not create any static discharge that I now see on my TV screen when pulsing this regular transformer.

Actually, I remember in Erfinders' first thread, I had posted a test I did by manually spiking a battery with the primary of a transformer and seeing voltages rise in the 800 volts range. Maybe I should wear some gloves. lol

Added:

@Grumpy

Could you please look at this post by Erfinder on this thread and see if your recommendation above is in conflict with what he is showing.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3972.msg73167.html#msg73167
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on January 29, 2008, 08:27:58 PM
That's what I get for just looking at the drawing and not reading the text.

You will get static discharge from the arcing of the relay contacts unless Erfinder uses the diode to supress the arcs.

So, loop those relays together to alternate back and forth automatically - like two "buzzers" and they can be loud.

See attached:


EDIT: as for the "compression" - "decompression" - I think this is the way that it must work - like nature.

wattsup - Haven;t look at that link yet
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on January 30, 2008, 12:21:39 AM
Now,

Do those caps work well because they are some magic number that will work for everybody?


Now if you really want to save on a little money, buy an inductance meter instead of tons of caps. Then find out exactly which cap you should buy.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on January 30, 2008, 05:14:37 AM
Here is a very good website to understand why Tesla built his circuits the way he did  :)
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/tesla/coloradonotes/coloradonotes.htm

We should remember the goal here is to produce currents of high frequency and potential, and Teslas circuits are the most efficient way to do this with a minimum number of components. It's kind of bizarre how we have been using Inductance and Capacitance in exactly the wrong way all this time. An inductance is used to raise the potential through an inductive discharge and the capacitor is used to raise the frequency as erfinder stated, a simple LC circuit to reach both objectives. What has not been mentioned is why? My answer is simple, which would be more efficient ?------- using a 12v DC battery to power a 12v motor OR using the same amount of power to charge a capacitor to 2000v and discharging this capacitor in pulses though the same 12v motor with a minimum voltage drop and very little heating effect. Then recapturing 80 % of this energy to charge the same battery that powers the oscillator charging the capacitor.  I mention this because I think it's important to have a premise, that is a goal to work towards which makes things easier.
It should be noted that many small AC and DC motors are rated in RPM/volt, so running a 12v motor at 600 volts would overspeed the motor, but when the power is pulsed the duty cycle is lowered as well, meaning the same power is generated at the same RPM. The big difference is the amperage is very small at 600v relative to 12v so the efficiency is very high.
Regards
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on January 30, 2008, 08:07:42 PM
alcadian,

 If you havent seen this recently, you should watch it!

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-6461713170757457294&q=eric+dollard&total=3&start=0&num=10&so=0&type=search&plindex=0

there is a second part thats not hard to find too.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on January 31, 2008, 02:22:24 PM
@all

Received my toroid transformer 240-12vac 10 amps and hooked it up. Immediately I noticed that the parameters are different. The relay is not acting the same with the same capacitor so I have to do some additional tests with both the primary and secondary as the primary, then move on to using both relays. 

Back soon.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Schpankme on February 01, 2008, 05:13:37 AM
@Grumpy, Smart observation. This means I could be using the wrong cap in the wrong place.


Nikola Tesla published - Resonance methods of electric power transmission

www.viesh.ru/Development%20of%20Resonance%20methods%20of%20electric%20power%20transmission.htm (http://www.viesh.ru/Development%20of%20Resonance%20methods%20of%20electric%20power%20transmission.htm)

  o Electric circuit power supply
      (a)  transmitting and receiving
      (b) devices by Avramenko for resonance transfer of electric power
      (c)notations are explained in the text

  o Avramenko's plug for current rectifying in the single-wire line

  o Circuits
      (a) voltage doubling circuit of monophase
      (b) input of three-phase bridge rectifier

  o Testing of the resonance


- Schpankme


Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on February 01, 2008, 10:31:07 PM
@Schpankme (what a name lol)

Thanks for that link. Guys you should look at it. Got me thinking about the TPU and SM (so when is that news). The transmission over one wire. What if the LTPU horizontal wire was exactly this. A six meter wire (about 6 turns in the LTPU) that connects  from one side of the vertical coils to the other. The thicker vertical coils at the LPTU zero point could be the primary. I made a quick diagram to show the crazy relationships. The LTPU could be two horizontally placed Telsa coils. Crazy, I know, but hey. Look a the block diagram below and here is the text that was with it.

Fig. 8. Electric circuit of RS
1 - frequency converter;
2 - resonance circuit of step-up transformer;
3 - single-wire line;
4 - resonance circuit of step-down transformer;
5 - rectifier-inverter;
6 ? load

@All

Regarding Erfinders Challenge (which it definitely is) I need some help with something regarding my two relay coils. When you look a Tesla's patent 568177, the two coils of the motor are in series. So I decided to put both relay coils in series with the primary of  my toroid, put 12vdc on it, but nothing. Then I put just the relays in series and connected them to the 12vdc and again nothing. No action. I tried each relay alone on the 12vdc and each one works. I measured the ohms of each relay coil and they are 93.9 and 94.2 ohms. Is it possible that the coils in the relays have a high resistance and this does not permit them to be connected in series. Weird. Anyone. Or do I need bigger relays. Erfinder asked for 12 vdc and 12 amps. Mine are 12vdc and 10 amp.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on February 02, 2008, 01:41:50 AM
dont worry about putting them in series or whatever, just worry about having a system of high self induction, low self induction, circuit controller, and condenser, as long as you have those in the configuration shown, you will get what you want.

In the patent, there is only one circuit controller, you have two relays which is two controllers, did tesla connect two motors in series to control the circuit? what could the second relay be used for then?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Ren on February 02, 2008, 02:29:24 AM
Is the second relay used to oscillate the potential from the secondary cap into the load?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on February 02, 2008, 07:04:06 PM
Here is a neat circuit I have been testing which may look familiar, starting at the negative terminal it includes --- a high self inductance, a low self inductance, a capacitor and the positive terminal of a battery. It also includes a circuit disrupter or switch to disrupt current flow. The scopeshot included is from this circuit, from a single 12v pulse through the switch.
This scopeshot had been bothering me for some time, there is something odd about it I could not figure out. The oscilloscope probes were placed across the capacitor. For one the input pulse is 12v, but notice in the scopeshot the smaller waveform outlined in red to the left is approximately 50v not 12v. The larger waveform, the inductive dicharge current is about 250v. Near the center of the scopeshot I had highlighted the waveforms in blue (inductive discharge) and red, notice how both waveforms rise and fall in the same instance and that below the black line or zero voltage boundary constituting a change in direction the pattern repeats. So we could say our waveforms follow each other and change direction together. What is odd is that there are two currents here, it seems that the inductive discharge current leaves the high self inductance travels through the low self inductance(primary) and charges the capacitor plate ----- this would compress the 12v (red) charge that was on the other plate to 50v which is forced into the batteries (+) terminal. This higher potential on the battery and capacitor plate then pushes the (blue) inductive discharge current back in the opposite direction through the low self inductance and back against the high self induction producing the dampened series of oscillations we see in the scopeshot. So in this case the battery would seem to have the elastic qualities of a capacitor. What is not expected is that the (blue)inductive discharge current and (red) conventional current would seem to retain there distinct qualities while being seperated by the elastic qualities of the capacitor, the capacitor acting as an elastic boundary between the two currents.
Hopefully this may help you in solving erfinders challenge.
Regards
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on February 03, 2008, 05:01:14 PM
@All

Had I not gone to a party last night (got in very late), I had started to prepare a post quoting the same passage of Teslas' patent. I knew it was the key.

The reason for my question about the ohm of my relays, it was evident that my relay either alone or even paired (series not possible and parallel ran the voltage of the battery down to 12.7 which never happened before), which I tried was not providing the proper self-induction (given the relays very small furty coil) but the problem was no other component was permitted in the materials list to act as a chocking coil, until today.

Anyways, when I ordered my transformer, I ordered two just in case, so back to the drawing board.

Funny thing, under my initial (one relay) diagram, my standard transformer (240-24vdc) worked much better then the toroid. I made voltages up to 94 vdc. But with the toroid, voltage would go up to around 18vdc. I tried both with pulsed primary and pulsed secondary and both had about the same results. And amazingly, the voltage on my battery is now back to 12.8. There is definitely some power being fed back to the battery, either as power or as a harmonic. I can probably prove this by adding a diode on the battery to prevent any flyback.

I had also noticed at with a very small voltage value of the primary capacitor, the relay would switch just enough to connect to the N/O contact, but very lightly so there was not enough contact. Definitely the relays had to work a tad slower so the choke coil will help.

Will do some ohms measuring of my coils and do some more tests and let you know here.

@Erfinder

I just need to know if I manage to get this working at a stupendous level, do I have permission to post it here, as is, since I do not want to get into a situation similar to @innovationstation (hey where is he anyways).

Added:

@allcanadian

Thanks for your post also. Very apropos. I will do some scope shots also when it is time and let you guys explain them since I will surely not be able to.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on February 03, 2008, 07:32:50 PM
Here is a neat circuit I have been testing which may look familiar, starting at the negative terminal it includes --- a high self inductance, a low self inductance, a capacitor and the positive terminal of a battery. It also includes a circuit disrupter or switch to disrupt current flow. The scopeshot included is from this circuit, from a single 12v pulse through the switch.
This scopeshot had been bothering me for some time, there is something odd about it I could not figure out. The oscilloscope probes were placed across the capacitor. For one the input pulse is 12v, but notice in the scopeshot the smaller waveform outlined in red to the left is approximately 50v not 12v. The larger waveform, the inductive dicharge current is about 250v. Near the center of the scopeshot I had highlighted the waveforms in blue (inductive discharge) and red, notice how both waveforms rise and fall in the same instance and that below the black line or zero voltage boundary constituting a change in direction the pattern repeats. So we could say our waveforms follow each other and change direction together. What is odd is that there are two currents here, it seems that the inductive discharge current leaves the high self inductance travels through the low self inductance(primary) and charges the capacitor plate ----- this would compress the 12v (red) charge that was on the other plate to 50v which is forced into the batteries (+) terminal. This higher potential on the battery and capacitor plate then pushes the (blue) inductive discharge current back in the opposite direction through the low self inductance and back against the high self induction producing the dampened series of oscillations we see in the scopeshot. So in this case the battery would seem to have the elastic qualities of a capacitor. What is not expected is that the (blue)inductive discharge current and (red) conventional current would seem to retain there distinct qualities while being seperated by the elastic qualities of the capacitor, the capacitor acting as an elastic boundary between the two currents.
Hopefully this may help you in solving erfinders challenge.
Regards


Very cool! Look very closely at those shots, and you will notice that they do not just "rise and fall" together, but that their relationship is slightly more complicated. You will notice that the peak of one, does not line up with the peak of the other, in fact they are shifted from one another. Those in EE will not be surprised with this, but it is very interesting when you consider we are looking at votage in a scope.

The two currents you are speaking of, are actually one current, being measured at different points and showing different time relationships. They are 90 degrees out of phase with one another, and interestingly they display the EXACT same characteristics as say a pendulum. Look at a pendulum and you will notice that the kenetic energy (movement energy) is 90 degrees out of phase with the Potential (static energy). In fact all oscillatory systems behave in a way similar to this.

What becomes even more interesting is noting how where the peaks are maximum and what this means, and where they are minimum and knowing what this represents, what is not shown on the scope, but inffered (the scope will not measure many things) is just as important also.

For example, minimum voltage could equate to maximum current, but this is not shown. These are not curious things if you start thinking about the actual physics of how these devices work, not just accepting that they do. What are capacitors and inductors, find out exactly how they behave with one another.

And good circuit!
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on February 05, 2008, 02:03:23 PM
@all

First off I found this off topic write up on velocity factors that touches upon alot of what is being discussed these days on the threads. Please pass it on.

http://www.qsl.net/vk5br/TransLines.htm

This is me thinking out load.

- Brain on -

OK, Erfinder says the toroid secondary should be between the relay coil and the short circuit contact and his is 21.5 ohms. He says his relay is 144 ohms. There is required a second transformer and his primary of that transformer is 21.5 to 24 ohms.

My two identical toroids are as follows;

Primary is a dual coil of 110vac in parallel or 220vac in series. Each coil is 5.7 ohms each, in parallel 2.8 ohms and in series 11.6 ohms

Secondary is a dual coil of 12vac in parallel or 24vac in series. Each coil is 0.1 ohms each, in parallel 0.2 ohms and in series 0.1 ohms.

My 12vdc relays are 93.9 and 94.2 ohms.

I also have another 240vac to 24 vac transformer but the primary is only 7.2 ohms and the secondary is again 0.1 ohms.

So I went today to my local EE outlet and spent a good 1 1/2 hours with my multimeter checking an endless number of transformers for their ohms. The transformers that are in the range of 240/12vac at 8-10 amps are now where near the ohmage ratings required. I found a few choke coils with like 34 ohms the size of a quarter, very tiny so impossible to handle the amps ratings.

I checked all the solenoid ohms, most where in the 1000s range, checked industrial relay coils also in the 1000s, then all types of transformers but nothing, I mean nothing comes close to those specs. I even compared my multimeter to one in store to make sure mine was working properly and it does.

- Brain off - ( I know - it's always off. ya ya) lol

I am lost. The main point is with all the info Erfinder gave on this thread, there is more then enough info for a build, but the specs don't make sense to me, and when it does not make sense in my mind, I usually don't move until it does. If I need a toroid secondary of around 21.5 ohms, I would need 215 of my current toroids in series. Ouch. Do I need to make my own choke?

Does anyone have any suggestions?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on February 05, 2008, 05:50:19 PM
There are several things you could do to gain a better understanding of what you are doing.

First go here....   http://www.lautsprechershop.de/tools/index_en.htm?/tools/t_p_schwingkreis_en.htm

Here you have a calculator, where if you have an inductor and a capacitor hooked in parallel. You can change their values and take note of what the natural resonant frequency of those items together are, this is in the yellow box labeled "near infinite impedance at"

If "plucked" your oscillator circuit (inductor and capacitor above) will vibrate at its resonant frequency.

This is good stuff to know!

Another good way to figure your values out would be to place some sort of a non inductive load (bank of lights or something) and adjust component values till you get a max output, use feel and common sense rather than take a thousand readings.

Get something that works well, then take measurements.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: am1ll3r on February 06, 2008, 09:20:56 PM
Hello to anyone paying attention to this thread :)
Just wanna add my 2 cents to this...
I am at most a  tinkerer who has too much time at work to browse the Internet trying to teach myself basic electronics. I didn't include any values to the components as I am just trying to get an understanding of how this circuit may be laid out. See what you think.
Thanks,
am1ller


Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on February 09, 2008, 08:42:31 PM
@am1ll3r

Thanks for putting up your schematic. I changed my present set-up to try your design but just on the primary side with a cap and diode on the secondary, as I had before and I am sad to say that there is no effect. This is not to say the design is not good or anything like that. It would require more testing with different caps and chokes, but in general, the voltage on the secondary side does not rise at all, whereas in my initial set-up, voltage gradually rises on the secondary side up to 90 volts.

I do notice however on the scope that spikes are created in the primary side but not enough to make any rise in power.

So for now I will revert back to my original set-up and continue working from there.

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on February 11, 2008, 09:44:45 PM
Son of a gun. I am actually getting shocked. Like a 9 volts battery on the tongue, but simply by holding the two wires that I connect to test primary caps. I am still on the primary side and have not worked out the relay on the secondary side. But I am getting shocks.

My relay coil is probably too big. Erfinders is 141 ohm, mine is 93 ohm. I have a smaller one that is at 160 ohm so I will try it with the same set-up and see if there is any change, since I feel I am not getting enough action from the choke coil and capacitor. It's as if the relay coil should hold back the power and the short should release it. But I can keep a small 12 volt light light off the secondary and the voltage can still rise, so this is an improvement.

Erfinder says try my own values. So I am. The fact that the choke ohms and the primary of the transformer should be in the same range is difficult to find.

The system is very sensitive to the probes of my scope. When I put channel A on a location I can see a certain waveform, but when I put the channel B somewhere else, the A waveform changes. Also, at 10x I can not see much waveform, so at 1x I can, but at 1x the waveforms are to big for my scope screen at the maximum 5 volts div and at 1ms. Crazy.

There are too many things happening to describe so I will just keep up playing with this, integrate the second relay and see what happens.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on February 12, 2008, 03:35:49 AM
Here is another clue from patent 568177----
Quote
"means for charging the condenser by such circuit and discharging it through the primary of the transformer"
and in patent 568178,page 1-line 40
Quote
"and what may be regarded as the local circuits, comprising the high self-induction for charging the condenser and the circuit of low self-induction into which the condenser discharges"

Tesla has stated the condenser discharges into the circuit of low self-induction, the primary -----  only the primary---- as the high self-induction is stated as the charging circuit not the discharging circuit. Tesla said these circuits can be considered interconnected but regarded a "practically distinct", that is the circuit of high self-inductance, circuit of low self-inductance and the secondary transformer.
So many clues  ;D
I just had to edit this in  ;)
Quote
Note that the presence of electric current does not detract from the electrostatic forces nor from the sparking, from the corona discharge, or other phenomena. Both phenomena can exist simultaneously in the same system
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on February 12, 2008, 02:50:13 PM
@AC

I was thinking the exact same thing of discharging the cap into the primary, but here is the problem. I can't make the relay click all the way to the other normally open terminal. The relay switching is so fast that the commom reed does not have enough time to get to the N/O side. However short the distance is. Since the positive or the negative is going through the N/C terminal before it goes to the relay coil. So I only have the N/C terminal to work with, and even then, it seems the open is so close to the points that there is sparks still between the points. So it is difficult to see if I am actually getting a 100% on and off condition like Tesla gets with his 100% on/off rotary design.

Unless I use any other ideas to make this relay click to both sides, I'm puzzled. I know that if I can get this to really switch, it will produce much more power. hehe.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on February 12, 2008, 04:58:32 PM
The NC contact is breaking open too - this is also a switch.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on February 12, 2008, 05:12:54 PM
Um.......

I could be wrong (definitely would not be the first time) but I think there was a misunderstanding in the two posts before Grumpy.

You don't want the reed of the switch to touch the other normally open terminal. This just wont happen. You can be assured you are getting a full on and off, simply if you have the thing oscillating. Think through the operation, I get the feeling things are being thrown together without thought as to how they operate together.

In the solenoid, the reed begins in contact with one terminal, this causes the electromagnet to fire, pulling it away. if there was not "off" it would never return to make contact and there would be a sustained arc. But it does return, meaning power was cut to the magnet at some point. This may not be as fast an "On" "Off" as we would like, but it is one none the less.

What Erfinder is saying, is that a correctly placed condenser will affect the operation to some degree...............how? try a small condenser, then a big one, note the frequency buzz you hear from the condenser with different ones.

Just a thought. this isnt my challange, lol.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on February 12, 2008, 05:49:59 PM
@all

Thanks guys for your input.

"First comprehend the oscillator, then build it". This gave me a flash on something I never tried.

With the system as is now, I added an extra capacitor across the coil of the relay and bingo, it works. I put my scope A on one of the commons and another on the its N/O terminal and now I get complete travel from N/C to N/O. YES SIR. Now all I have to do is keep this capacitor there and work the other capacitor out of the design cause that would make two caps on the primary side which is one too many for the EC. This changes the whole dynamics of this. More fun to come.

Lastly, I was always trying to keep the initial Tesla patent design intact but realize now that we cannot keep it this way since the relay requires that extra control. But in general, the design will follow the spirit of the Tesla patent. Plus yesterday, the arching on the relay contacts was producing some ozone. How good is that. lol
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: am1ll3r on February 13, 2008, 06:11:47 AM
Hello again... :D
Here is a video and schematic of what I have so far...
Using only the parts Erfinder suggested but not the same specs.(using what I have available)
Battery 12 V (Power Wheels) lol
12 v 10 A DPDT relay
Transformer using the secondary as a choking coil.(from a  UPS system) unknown specs
Transformer Primary 120 V Secondary 12 V (similar to this http://www.nextag.com/AC-to-12V-DC-530830936/prices-html )
47 uF 35V Cap
560 uF 200V Cap
HV Diode

I don't have the relay working the the "working" circuit yet...(bought one but its bad and need to take it back)

I don't know if is is of any significance but the cap in my working circuit will charge up to about 50 V in about 10 seconds. I honestly don't know it that means anything as I do not have any sort of an electrical background. I can say I feel this circuit is completely un tuned... by that I mean my parts are not harmonically balanced. I think cap and primary coil need to be Resonance with X frequency and then the LC circuit needes to be pulsed at the same X frequency... I'm sure there is more as there are 3 parts to this circuit. The circuit controller, the LC circuit, and the working circuit. all of these need to be balanced but I'm not sure of the proper way to do it yet.

Again I really am green when it comes to EE but maybe as erfinder has said  "forget mainstream" ...it may be an advantage because I was never thought how things are suppose to work... I have an open mind... ;D

Well its late and I have work in the AM...
Here is the video link: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HbcB0szyx-Q
and the schematic...





   
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on February 13, 2008, 07:30:20 AM
@am1ll3r

Great job indeed and I am happy to see someone else trying this. You are on your way and it's fun. It's just crazy. My first trials and many after gave those results but with a little higher voltage, but that is without a load. As soon as I would put a small 12vdc light on the working circuit, the voltage would drop to around 1.5 - 2.5 vdc. I tried with many choke types and caps, switched transformers, etc., etc., but the results with a load were always in that range.

@all

Now that I "think" my cap is in the "right place", it is true you can build around it and I am putting up a circuit diagram of my current EC Trial #2 so it can be recorded here as a progression. I'm only using one relay on the primary side, and of this, I'm now only using one side but both N/O and N/C terminals.

I realized that my caps could be bigger since the uf is what is important here, so I plugged my large capacitor bank that I usually use for RVing a 460 volts motor. Started switching caps in and out while checking the secondary voltage starting to increase even with the load. Once I got the best match, I am producing 14.3 volts range with the load. So I decided to take out my biggest capacitor on hand which is a massive (see photo lol) 88uf 1200 volts. The voltage went up to 16.8 volts and holding.

My relay is purring like a nice running motor. Not to fast, not too slow. No I have not done any amperage tests, etc., as at this point this is not my main concern. I can say this is so much fun.

I still have to integrate the other half of this relay, plus another relay on the secondary side.

Sorry if the photo is a miss mash of wires. If anyone else is trying this, the values are not important. Just stay under the 100uf on the primary side because it is true, the relay will take a beating. I tried.

This is so f*&?in great. Now I can pulse my relay at different speeds just by changing the capacitor value. I tried a 0.5uf 1200 volts cap and you should here the relay whizzing along, but no power production in this set-up. But still, this will open a whole new realm of testing for this non EEer. Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I can now really pulse into my TPU, ECD and every thing that is pulsable and finally check mag fields in real time.

@EM or @Plengo

If you have any time, try taking this diagram and adapt it in a mini-TPU setup as I am very curious to see if there is any potential.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on February 13, 2008, 03:44:32 PM
A while back I whipped one of these together just to show effect...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9g2AGs9_JU&feature=related

Same principles, home made solenoid relay (decently fast as you can see) but what I wanted to point out was the size of the capacitor on it, while optimum will be different for every setup, mine here is only a 500 volt 5pf ceramic disk one that I point to about 7 seconds in (but dont mention it in the video) turns out this was not optimal, but still shows that you dont need huge values here. With this condenser, and the primary of the transformer, my output arcs were oscillating in the millions of cycles per second, After adding a bit more capacitance later, I got sparks up to 1 inch.

Also read carefully patent 462,418 http://www.rastko.org.yu/cms/files/books/46c5badf76cd6.pdf
notice what changing condenser size does to the strength of current. Perhaps a giant cap on the output is not best, perhaps it is,
but you should understand what changing the size does.

Keep up the good work guys!!!!

One more thing. I tend to talk to a  few people over instant messenger and I noticed something interesting, People tend to find an interesting site, speculate over it, and leave it at that. Why not take a more proactive stance and contact the creator of the site! Or if you see someone who might be good to share info with send them a personal message! The point is, dont be shy my friends, we are in this together, contact each other, talk to each other, pick the brains of people who know more than you, (you only know something when you realize you know nothing) but all in all, you guys are great, thanks for the smile. ;D
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on February 15, 2008, 02:47:39 PM
I changed my smaller relay for my original one and my largest cap was not enough for peak performance at this stage so I put my large capacitor bank back on the system to do some other fine tuning. Here's a picture of the bank. I still have one set of reeds available for connecting and have tried some locations and the results are mainly higher sparks, sometimes green sparks, sometimes blue sparks, sometimes ozone smell. I think I better get a few more relays as spares cause these will not last the whole testing phase. I also tried some feeding back the secondary into the primary side with some freaky results. Can't wait to really get to that point.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: am1ll3r on February 15, 2008, 03:35:33 PM
WOW ;D  nice looking cap bank. I haven't had a chance to do any further testing but I do have some question that I will be posting soon.


Cheers
am1ll3r
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on February 15, 2008, 05:30:24 PM
I don't want to confuse the issue too much but here is something to consider, the energy flow in an inductor never reverses it only charges polarity. As well using "electron flow" notation we start to see that the electrons on the negative (-) terminal is the initial "cause" for any flow in a circuit. The positive terminal is not a source of anything, it is an absence of electrons which produces a potential difference between the (+) and (-) terminals. In the diagram attached we see the electron flow and the "conventional flow" ie.  "current" would flow in the opposite direction to this electron flow but it should be remembered the current is not "cause" it is an effect. What happens when there is no current flow ? An area of compressed electrons or tension is the cause, could we charge a capacitor with electrons with no current flow?
Many of you may have noticed a bit of a paradox in your circuits, if you place a diode between the high self-inductance and circuit controller  the diode will not work to keep current flow limited to the primary and capacitance circuit because the infernal voltage keeps changing polarity, it acts "exactly" as a fluid would ---- an electrical fluid if you use "electron" flow.
Very interesting  :)
Even more interesting is the fact that when we speak of electrostatic induction, electric fields and charged bodies we are refering to charged bodies with a preponderance of electrons relative to another body with a lack of electrons(a potential difference) ---- there is no conventional current to be found. The conventional current usually appears when a charged body is discharged to ground  ;) ----- or to a body of a lesser charge.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on February 15, 2008, 07:34:40 PM
@Armagdon03 , Allcanadian , or anyone else

In my earth battery thread  i was building different homeade electromagnetic relays in search of a good one for the cell and i came across a wierd mod taht allowed me to step up 3 v to 60 in under two seconds bateries dotn get hot either i would really appreciate it if any of you had any idea why this happens in this circuit.. i didnt think a step up transformer could be built this way. Gotta love crazy ideas.  http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3500.msg76964.html#msg76964 (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3500.msg76964.html#msg76964)  That post explains it and the post below the link has the full picture.  Reason im bringning this up here is because it seemed like if the speed of the relay was fast enough to swing the cap up say at least once a second thats a hell of a burst waiting in a photoflash cap 200v 330 mfd to be sent into a primary coil of a tesla transformer.
                                                                     Thanks
                                                                         Joe
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on February 16, 2008, 03:19:20 AM
What you have stumbled on is one of the uses of coils of high self induction, and a property of induction itself. A charged condenser will collapse when power is disconnected, to this end the discharge from the coil will overcome resistance, and does so through an increase in potential. In fact in at least one of Teslas patents Tesla states that if the voltage of the source is not high enough, the properties of a choking coil may be taken advantage of. Wish i could name the patent off the top of my head, guess I better read them more ;)
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on February 16, 2008, 03:48:52 AM
@armagdn03

Thanks for the reply, im familiar with what your talking about but the cap never discharges into the circuit. I think This cap arrangement with the diode between the spring arm and the inductor somehow accepts the collapse on its way back from the spring arm and filters some of it through the diode into the cap.The cap and the relay circuit have a common ground/ - .  Two things which occured to me also the swing up was rather dramatic and it was Dependant on speed of the relay firing. the effect tapered just over 60 v and seemed to keep going but much more slowley.. then i realized the PIV rating on my diode was 75 v so im wondering if my "valve" so to speak is limiting the ammt of the back spike going into the cap .. the cap voltage is higher so i know thats not a limiting factor.. other senario is i haven't achieved a fast enough mechanical speed to get larger spike.  Thanks again for the quick answer  ;D Im going to go back through my patents as well ..

                                                                                                                                   Joe
                                                                                                     
PS- Scan Soft pdf pro is sweet program that lets you take normal pdf's and save them to search able pdf format. That  makes it so you can do word searches  ;D  I did this to the pdf I found that had all of teslas patents in it that way we can see each reference in each patent . helps find the pieces to the puzzle easier if you need pm me an ftp and i will be glad to upload it to you or skype it   
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on February 16, 2008, 04:31:18 AM
The best advice I can give any person pondering the mysteries of...............whatever, would be,     Understand the physical aspects (physics, kinematics, etc.) of the components and interaction with other components.

A complete understanding of interactions, physical properties, etc, will awnser all of your questions, Why ask questions, when the most qualified person to ask is yourself?

If you cannot explain in full detail the operations of a condenser, then perhaps you have some thinking to do. I cannot tell you how many nights I have spent thinking of such things, imagining, working things out in my head till I am satisfied, mental experimentation is key! to be able to build without question is an amazing feeling, no experimentation, just KNOWING. What if you could just build your OU machine with confidence without any questions?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: am1ll3r on February 16, 2008, 04:58:12 AM
 ;D ;D

Quote
mental experimentation is key!

sounds very familiar  :D

quote from a Tesla Bio...
Quote
The moment one constructs a device to carry into practice a crude idea, he finds
himself unavoidably engrossed with the details of the apparatus. As he goes on
improving and reconstructing, his force of concentration diminishes and he loses
sight of the great underlying principle. Results may be obtained, but always at
the sacrifice of quality. My method is different. I do not rush into actual
work. When I get an idea, I start at once building it up in my imagination. I
change the construction, make improvements and operate the device in my mind. It
is absolutely immaterial to me whether I run my turbine in thought or test it in
my shop. I even note if it is out of balance. There is no difference whatever;
the results are the same. In this way I am able to rapidly develop and perfect a
conception without touching anything. When I have gone so far as to embody in
the invention every possible improvement I can think of and see no fault
anywhere, I put into concrete form this final product of my brain. Invariably my
device works as I conceived that it should, and the experiment comes out exactly
as I planned it. In twenty years there has not been a single exception. Why
should it be otherwise? Engineering, electrical and mechanical, is positive in
results. There is scarcely a subject that cannot be examined beforehand, from
the available theoretical and practical data. The carrying out into practice of
a crude idea as is being generally done, is, I hold, nothing but a waste of
energy, money, and time.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: am1ll3r on February 16, 2008, 05:08:00 AM
Quote
In fact in at least one of Teslas patents Tesla states that if the voltage of the source is not high enough, the properties of a choking coil may be taken advantage of. Wish i could name the patent off the top of my head, guess I better read them more Wink

The circuit including the motor is of relatively high self-induction, and this property is imparted to it by the coils of the motor, or when these are not sufficient, by the addition of suitable choking-coils, so that at each break of the motor-circuit a current of high electromotive force will be developed for charging the condenser, which may therefore be small and inexpensive.

568,177

Apparatus For Producing Ozone

 ;)
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on February 16, 2008, 05:25:33 AM
@am1ll3r

Thanks, but i knew the answer to my own question. At least you were cordial so thanks. I just wanted to see if armagdn03  would see the similarity and difference from his previous vid and discuss it.


Instead i got
 "The best advice I can give any person pondering the mysteries of...............whatever, would be,     Understand the physical aspects (physics, kinematics, etc.) of the components and interaction with other components.  A complete understanding of interactions, physical properties, etc, will answer all of your questions, Why ask questions, when the most qualified person to ask is yourself?"

@armagdn03 
There is this thing in life that humans do, they gather here and discuss topics of interest for a common good.  Now if you want to leave those kind of answers .. spare me the time man i'm not stupid, you could use one of these answers.. Hey im busy maybe some other time...  I'm too caught up in what I'm doing right now.....  I don't want to discuss this with you..... any of those things seems to be a bit more to the point than what you left.  Thanks for repeating yourself and IS. I have read the bio many of times and however clever it was a bit insulting .
                                                                                                                                                                      Joe   


Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on February 16, 2008, 05:35:31 AM
@Localjoe

I like your circuit set-up. Your 300uf cap maybe be the reason the relay is going very slow. Try under 100uf like we are doing here.

@AC

Thanks so much for your post and yes, you just confused the issue. Serious. Don't know were to start rambling on about this. Holly crap. What a post. So relevant.

Also, I'm puzzled, please see on your post the second figure diode seems to be in backwards given the direction of flow. I could be wrong but in wikipedia the diode current is shown going the other way.

@armagdn03

You're right but you are describing the ultimate goal. It's like saying why can't you just think about playing Mozart enough to just sit down and play it. The ideal is great but unfortunately, we're only human. Yes, creations must come from inspiration, but such can only happen when one has integrated all the knowledge, but part of that knowledge can only be attained by practice. Like I said, we're only human. I can't believe Tesla did not practice. And don't forget that Tesla had a mental disorder (or hyper order) that gave him the ability to see his creations as if they were real working devices. This had plagued him and anointed him, all his life.

Geez sometimes these threads move fast. Just saw @am1ll3r post. Well, redundancy never hurt anyone.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on February 16, 2008, 06:12:14 AM
@am1ll3r

Thanks, but i knew the answer to my own question. At least you were cordial so thanks. I just wanted to see if armagdn03  would see the similarity and difference from his previous vid and discuss it.


Instead i got
 "The best advice I can give any person pondering the mysteries of...............whatever, would be,     Understand the physical aspects (physics, kinematics, etc.) of the components and interaction with other components.  A complete understanding of interactions, physical properties, etc, will answer all of your questions, Why ask questions, when the most qualified person to ask is yourself?"

@armagdn03 
There is this thing in life that humans do, they gather here and discuss topics of interest for a common good.  Now if you want to leave those kind of answers .. spare me the time man i'm not stupid, you could use one of these answers.. Hey im busy maybe some other time...  I'm too caught up in what I'm doing right now.....  I don't want to discuss this with you..... any of those things seems to be a bit more to the point than what you left.  Thanks for repeating yourself and IS. I have read the bio many of times and however clever it was a bit insulting .
                                                                                                                                                                      Joe   




Never claimed you were stupid my friend, I am hardly here to play games.

You posed a question, I answered. Take it or leave it.

I have known and know people who could have given me the answer, and Looking back, I would have considered it, looked it up, googled it, etc.......and I would have moved on to the next thing that caught my attention. And would I have gained ground? a bit perhaps, but not only would I have not understood what was given to me, I would have taken for granted the little I learned.

A small nudge in the right direction can be inspiring. I am no better than you nor anybody else, what I realize is the joy of Figuring out something for myself!

If you do not wish to discuss, please do not leave messages requesting my answer.

@ all

Im not talking about "a mental disorder" or anything of the like! I am simply saying, if you dont understand it, think about it! long and hard, look things up, develop your own ideas, look to yourself, nobody will answer your questions better than you can, Im not saying anybody here is right or wrong, im just asking you to think about YOUR world!

I wish you all the best.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on February 16, 2008, 06:15:25 AM
@Wattsup

Thanks, The cap has no visible effect on the circuit,It wasn't added till later with the diode in an effort to capture some of that little blue spark  :). Thats why i thought it to be a little different.  Gotta keep playing with it tho and get a better brush or contact so i don't have to hold the thing. It sound like it wants to wind up.
                                                                                                                                       Joe
 
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on February 16, 2008, 07:33:44 AM
@wattsup
Quote
Also, I'm puzzled, please see on your post the second figure diode seems to be in backwards given the direction of flow. I could be wrong but in wikipedia the diode current is shown going the other way.

If you look at the circuit "current" flow in my last post you can see if the diode was reversed all current would flow around the inductor --- a short circuit. The diode direction depends on the circuit and whether the inductor is allowed to "collapse" and reverse polarity or just act as a flywheel as in step-up buck boosters.
Here is the best site I have seen on buck-boosters or DC/DC converters, go to flyback converters near the end---- very cool.
http://www.powerdesigners.com/InfoWeb/design_center/articles/DC-DC/converter.shtm

I have attached a picture of localjoe's circuit, notice it is a boost converter step-up converter, with a low inductance coil (L2) in the switch leg, which is well....... very cool.  :)
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on February 16, 2008, 06:30:57 PM
@armagdn03

Fair enough . Just wanted to make sure you weren't toying with me.

@AllCanadian

Thanks for the real circuit drawing  :) .
                                                                           Joe
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on February 16, 2008, 06:44:36 PM
@Localjoe

allcanadian is the one who put up that circuit.


@AC

Here's what I am trying to explain about the diode being backwards in the circuits. I pulled these gifs off of wiki. It shows current can only enter from the triangle side, pass the straight line and cannot come back. This is why I am so confused about those two circuits. Is wiki wrong (would not be the first time) on something so obvious.

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Charlie_V on February 17, 2008, 05:18:43 AM
@wattsup,

The way wikipedia has drawn it is correct.  Current (which is conventionally drawn flowing positive to negative) will go in the direction that the diode arrow makes, the bar means that it cannot flow back the other way.  In the circuit, the battery will charge the capacitor until it reaches a point where it arcs (atleast it seems like the break in the top portion of the circuit is a spark gap).  Which will then allow current to flow from the battery into L2.  However, this circuit doesn't seem to allow the capacitor to discharge?

@AllCanadian,

I'm going to be conducting Tesla's power transfer experiment for one of my directed studies.  Since you've been experimenting with Tesla stuff, I wanted to ask you some questions.  One, do you know why he matches mass weight between his primary and secondary coils?  He says its for best results but never mentions why it gives best results, have you figured this out?  What frequencies do you use?  In Colorado Tesla used 90-400kHz, is this the range your using or is it lower/higher?  Are you reducing the internal capacitance of your coils? (aka are you using single layer coils with widely spaced windings so that the capacitance between the wires is as small as possible?)  Tesla mentions that a coil with high inductance and low internal capacitance will be able to freely oscillate for longer periods of time.  And lastly, have you tried the "extra coil" yet?  Apparently, since the coil is away from the inductive coupling of the primary, it doesn't get damped and can really resonate for a long period of time.  Tesla said that when he used his "extra coil" he only used the secondary as a normal step-up transformer (acting on only the turns ratio) where as the extra coil was used for the resonant rise magnification.  The thing that confuses me is that I think he was still making sure that the secondary was a quarter wavelength of the frequency.  Since the extra coil was also a quarter wavelength, this means there's 1/2 wavelength in the secondary circuit and the standing wave anti-nodes will be all messed up.  Have you figured this part out yet?

Thanks,
Charlie
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on February 17, 2008, 07:13:53 AM
@Charlie_V

Sorry if I was not clear but the circuit diagram I am referring to is on this thread but on previous page here.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3972.msg77183.html#msg77183

For the mass matching, we had covered this with Erfinders first circuit where there were two primaries with their total mass equal to the total mass of the four secondaries. It has to do with the total electrons being moved from one to the other so one produces just enough for the other to handle, not more, no less, making it a perfect tunable pair. There is also a question of timing or frequency matching using Tesla speed of electricity calculations. But others here will have a better explanation I am sure.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on February 17, 2008, 09:14:58 AM
@ wattsup
You are correct, the diode will conduct current (+) with the arrow of the diode pointing in the direction of the current----- it will also allow electron flow( - ) to travel in the opposite direction against the arrow--- there are always two flows, electron flow and current flow. It should be known however that electron flow is the "cause" of current flow, if no electrons move there can be no current which should raise questions as to what "electric current" really is. I believe Walter Russell left us a clue---
Quote
"All things are one, but made to appear as two extensions of the centered one"
In our project we have current entering a high inductance, the current is transformed into high potential (voltage) by a rapid collapse of the magnetic field---- a large potential difference(voltage) is generated which means there are many electrons in one area (-) and very few in another(+). My point in all of this was to show that we have to get past our preoccupation with only "current" flow and consider the electric fields as well ie.. electrons.

@Charlie_V
Anything I can tell you I got from reading Tesla's literature, Tesla's "Colorado Springs Notes" would explain more than I ever could. In regards to Tesla's "extra coil", it is not well known but this may have been a resonant coil, I mean mechanically resonant. Both ends would be attached firmly and the coil itself would vibrate mechanically and electrically, the resonant relationship between the two is unknown. I got this information from a website which I never bookmarked so I have no idea where to find it. The prospect of mechanical resonance certainly adds another dimension to his apparatus, If the space between the windings was varied we could also consider this space a variable capacitance as well  ;)

P.S.--- the "spark gap" in the circuit I posted is a poor rendition of a switch  :D
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Charlie_V on February 18, 2008, 04:12:58 AM
The equal amount of electrons makes sense for the mass equality.  I wonder how much more of an improvement it makes in the system?  Have you guys tested this by making a primary/secondary thats mass matched and one that isn't? 

Now about the extra coil, although the extra coil may have been mechanically oscillating, in his Colorado Spring notes he only ever mentions electrical oscillation.  Since he gives dimensions and period/frequency of the electrical signal, the length of his extra coil always matches 1/4 wavelength of whatever his electrical frequency is (I did the calculations for all the extra coils).  But adding a mechanical oscillation to the system would be pretty neat. 

When he winds the coils, any of them on the secondary side, he winds them with about 1 inch between windings and 2-3 inches for the last 5 or so.  He's doing this because if you wound them like a regular transformer (packed tightly) each winding would be very close to the next and when energized would be storing a portion of the energy as charge like a capacitor - aka the distributed capacitance of the coil.  He says he doesn't want this - calling it evil - because the more energy stored as charge in the coil, the less energy is allowed to bounce between its terminals.

In one of the experiments he notices that the bottom connection of the secondary coil is arcing over the lighting arrestors to ground.  He finds that a water pipe (actually he had the whole system grounded to the water line) has a standing wave generated upon it.  He takes a coil he had on hand (one that was tightly wound, the windings packed together) and attaches it to the water pipe, 500 feet from the transmitter, and is able to get a 1 inch spark from the top of the coil.  Although the coil was a 1/4 wavelength (which I calculated from the length he gave) of the frequency in the main oscillator, the self capacitance of the coil was way to large and it gave a very crappy resonant rise.  Later on he repeats the experiment with a better coil, after attaching the "new coil" as he calls it,  to the metal water pipe 500 feet away, he can get a spark of about 5 inches from the top of the coil, the resonant rise greatly increased. 

The extra coil, he discovered, greatly improved the resonant rise because it was not magnetically coupled to the primary.  Apparently, the primary acts to dampen the electrical resonance of the secondary - this is just what he says, I've never tested to see.  When you have an extra coil in place, the extra coil is far away from the primary, does not share in the mutual flux, and can "freely oscillate", meaning the damping factor in the electrical oscillation is very low.  AllCanadian, your oscilloscope pictures in the beginning of this forum show the resonant oscillation he was talking about.  You can see the dampening effect, the less capacitance you can make in your secondary coil, the longer it should oscillate before it dies down. 

What is the frequency you are using in your setup?  This is the equation Tesla uses to determine his frequency (Atleast this is what he used in his notes):

T = (2Ï€/10?)*(L*C)^0.5

Where T is the period (in seconds), L is the inductance (in henries) , and C is the capacitance (in farads).  The frequency will be 1/T.  Its very clear that when he began his Colorado experiments he was trying to do something very different than what he ends up doing in the end.  I think he was trying to break down the air between the ionosphere and his transmitter in the beginning - his first patents describe this I think.  Then he discovered you can create ground currents and he switched directions of his research.  Imagine using one wire as both the positive and return - no loop as in conventional circuits.  Its all possible with standing waves, atleast that's what I will attempt to reprove. 
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on February 18, 2008, 05:28:37 AM
@c Charlie_V

Thank you for your insightful and well written post! some things to think about. I am begining to go back through the springs notes and take note of his math, seems you are going down this road as we speak.

@all

I don't really recall Tesla using the word "electron" perhaps we should leave it out of our vocab for consistency. We need not talk about the water in waves to talk about the energy carried.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on February 18, 2008, 05:35:00 AM
@AC

Thanks for your explain. I am still iffy jiffy but hey, that's what a thick skull is for. lol

@Charlie_V

"Called it evil" - Roberto and Otto should read this as it  has bearing on the TPU 10 and even the ECD.

Regarding the formula, could you run an example calculation to show how to use this formula, so there are no misunderstandings.

Also, great post.

@all

OK here is the EC Trial #3, as far as I can best estimate, is how the primary side will work. Using a variety of caps with this scheme both on the primary and secondary side, the secondary output while running a 12 vdc bulb would light off the secondary and the voltage would hold steady at around 17 vdc. I did some 10 seconds starts-up without a load and voltages ranged from 34 to 81 vdc. Shit. All this is done and I'm only using some mA off the battery, and the battery when not used keeps going back up to around 12.6. I never recharged the battery through all my tests, I started at 12.8 and now I'm at 12.6.

Now for the secondary side relay...............
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on February 18, 2008, 10:07:08 AM
@armagdn03
I agree, I have regrets I even mentioned the "e" word, it has no place here.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Charlie_V on February 18, 2008, 06:17:12 PM
@ wattsup,

Lets assume we have a simple primary circuit with a capacitor thats 0.1F and an inductor that is 1μH.  We charge the capacitor up separately, disconnect the power supply, and then discharge the capacitor into the inductor.  When the capacitor discharges into the inductor, it will electrically ring, similar to how a bell mechanically rings.  We want to calculate the period of the oscillation in seconds:

T = (2Ï€/10?)*(L*C)^0.5
T = (6.283/1000)*(0.000001*0.1)^0.5
T = (0.006283)*(1x10^-7)^0.5
T = (0.006283)*(3.1623x10^-4)
T = 1.98692x10^-6 (sec)
frequency (f) = 1/T
f = 503.3kHz

The ideal secondary circuit would then be an inductor with 0.1H inductance and a ball on top with a capacitance of 1μF (with respect to ground).  The length of the wire in the secondary inductor should be a quarter wavelength of the oscillation frequency.

wavelength (λ) = 300,000,000/(4*f)
λ = 300,000,000[m/s]/(4*503,300[Hz])
λ = 149m or 489ft

This length assumes your secondary coil has no distributed capacitance.  Unfortunately it will, so the length of the wire will need to be slightly shorter.  According to Tesla, the more distributed capacitance, the shorter time the circuit will ring.  Reduction of the distributed capacitance can be accomplished by the coil's geometry. 

As a side note, its very interesting that this is the exact opposite of what you do to make a modern antenna.  If you look at the Tesla primary circuit, the characteristic impedance will be (L/C)^0.5 = (1μH/0.1F)^0.5 =  0.003Ω, where as the secondary's characteristic impedance is (0.1F/1μH)^0.5 = 316Ω.  They are greatly different.  This means that the energy will be reflected back to the source.  If you wanted to turn Tesla's magnifier into a modern day antenna, you would make the primary circuit's characteristic impedance be as close as possible to 316Ω.  Then, energy wouldn't return, instead it would radiate away like in modern day radio transmitters.  So, Tesla's magnifier is really like a single edged knife, one dull side and one sharp side.  Unfortunately, modern radio chose to use the dull side. 
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on February 18, 2008, 07:28:40 PM
The "mass matched" primary/secondary may have been for "efficient excitation" of the secondary by the primary.  I have searched for a long time to explain why Tesla stated this.  Eric Dollard modified this from matched mass to matched surface area in his work and states that with impulses, the skin effect is "total" - implying that the surface area is what matters.  I am building a MT now and I did match the mass of the primary/secondaries (it double ended) - just in case.  (surface area is proportional with each secondary 4 times the primary).

Tesla magnifier is not a resonant-coupled system, per se.  It does not use resonant rise like Tesla's two-coil transformer.  In the magnifier, the "extra coil" is an independent system that is excited by the primary/secondary.  I use the term "independent" loosely since the coils are related and tuned.  there are many many ways to make them and so long as they are balanced, people get fabulous results.  Richard Hull worked a great deal with several different arrangements and used rather large inductance values for primary and secondary and got monstrous sparks out of the extra coil.  Hull's approach is very different than that of Eric Dollard.  Dollard recommdends a single strap primary, and secondary or large surface area with maximum self-capacitance, and then the extra coil is wound for max self-inductance and min self-capacitance.  Hull did not tune for resonance or even wavelength at all, where as Dollard tuned for 1/2 primary (times an even integer and harmonic of secondary), 1/4 secondary, and 1/4 extra coil while calculating propagation rates which far exceded light in the extra coil.  Dollard connected all three coils directly.  Hull coupled the primary and secondary and would detroy them when they shorted together.  Tesla mentions when expalining his disruptive discharge coil that the primary can be connected to the secondary to prevent arcing between them - nice tip.

Hull got monstrous sparks which was all he was after.  Dollard got much more interesting effects such as a conductive field extending from the top load of the extra coil that was not "ionic" in nature (he doesn't say what it was), "explosive phenomena" when driving the system above resonance, superliminal velocities (phase not group velocity), and other effects that Tesla  mentions regarding radiant energy.  This is what prompted me to follow Dollard rather than Hull's work.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Charlie_V on February 18, 2008, 08:45:01 PM
@Grumpy

Quote
where as Dollard tuned for 1/2 primary (times an even integer and harmonic of secondary), 1/4 secondary, and 1/4 extra coil while calculating propagation rates which far exceeded light in the extra coil.

Can you explain this a little more in detail?  What do you mean tuned for 1/2 primary? 

The way you've described Dollard's primary and secondary is the way Tesla describes it.  The secondary in his magnifier is only to transform things to a higher voltage, the same way a conventional transformer works, with turn ratios.  The extra coil is the free oscillator - developing a resonant rise, just as you've described, low distributed capacitance and high inductance.  This is still at the heart a coupled set of oscillators with mismatched impedances.  The thing I don't quite grasp is what does the standing wave look like with a quarter wave secondary AND extra coil.  This means the secondary circuit is a half wavelength.  So where will the voltage nodes and anti-nodes be?  For what I want to do this is critical.  This is the best I can imagine it, what do you think Grumpy?

Added After Posting - if the way I've drawn it is the way the standing wave develops on the secondary side, then this would explain why you want to connect the primary to the secondary, since its a good bet that the secondary "ground" terminal (which doesn't necessarily have to be connected to ground) will be at a much higher voltage than the primary.  Connecting them will put the primary at the same voltage level as that terminal. 
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on February 18, 2008, 09:56:28 PM
The primary is directly coupled - it would be at the bottom of you diagram.  The primary is 180 deg, the secondary is 90 deg, and the extra coil/lead is 90 deg = 360 degrees.

You need a half-wave in the primary.  Tesla mentions an equation: wavelength/2 = Kn (where K is any whole integer and "n" is a harmonic convenient for the size of the unit).  It works out that the primary length is 1/2, 1/4, 1/8, 1/16, 1/32, etc. of the length of the secondary depending on the harmonic selected.  This puts the nodes of the wave at the ends of the primary.  This means the nodes of the system are at the ends.  However, Dollard put a question mark for the phase effect of the top load.

Dollards explanation of the operation is brief and to the point - basically an energy field is collapsed and the shock wave moves through the system like something out of a horror movie.  Dollard also explains that the third coil can be tuned to move the max voltage point out of the coil and into the line or top load.  It is the lengths of the wires that is important along with several other things.  Amazingly Hull got excellent results just by tuning the coils with various tap points.  Rather than a transmission line, the magnifier is more like a special wave guide.

Tesla stated in an interview with his attorneys that the magnifier method was much more effective and easier than the resonant rise method and that turn ration did not even give an approximate indication of the rise of voltage developed in a few turns of the secondary.

Tesla went to great lengths in Colorado to get rid of the self-capacitance in the extra coil - saying it killed the effects.

It's my understanding that the top load of the magnifier is actually a "virtual ground".  Also, many think that there is no current in the output of the magnifier - Tesla stated he could easily pull 100's amperes off the terminal.  He also could diintegrate aluminum foil inside the extra coil - stating it was like a crack of thunder and the foil was vaporized.

Wonderful stuff.

EDIT:
Dollard specifically mentions that a "strong travelling wave is formed" coming out of the primary and he considers the secondary and the extra coil as 1/4 wave transmission lines.  In a travelling wave, the voltage and current are "in-phase" so it is "real energy" not "reactive energy".
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Charlie_V on February 19, 2008, 12:05:44 AM
Coupling the secondary directly to the primary is what Tesla does to tune the extra coils, but in the Colorado notes he shows it the way I've drawn, disconnected.  Tesla also states in the Colorado spring notes that the length of the primary doesn't matter.  He used a 1/2 wavelength primary vs one that wasn't matched to the wavelength and he said he didn't get much of a difference.

I'll look for that equation with the Kn, I remember it but I thought it was with reference to the secondary, not the primary.  I know for fact he states that the length of the primary doesn't matter.  However, he does seem to change what he's doing throughout the notes so maybe I over looked that.  I'll go back and see.  I think this is going to be one of the things I just experiment with and see what happens. 

Originally, I thought the ground connection of the secondary was a voltage node.  In his notes he draws it as an anti-node (maximum point).  In the interview to his attorney he also says that you can connect the primary to the secondary, but it doesn't really matter.  He doesn't ever seem to make up his mind. 

Grumpy, is there free literature on Dollard and Hull and what they did?

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on February 19, 2008, 01:36:17 AM
If you are building a magnifier, do a google search for posts made by "Richard Hull" and "Richard Quick" - they (and the Virginia group they are part of) are the "magnifier kings" of the 90's and after.

Tesla used many many arrangements for various reasons in Colorado.  I have his notes too.  He was discovering, experimenting, and building.  He stated in an interview much later that the current system was different from the magnifier patent.

Eric Dollard's book are available as a 5-book set for like 50 bucks.  He takes a different approach than anyone else I have seen or heard of.  similar to some but still rather unique.  He states that he varified everything by experimentation.  He aslo developes his theory of electricity to a large degree in his books.   There is very little available from Dollard that is outside of these 5 books.  Couple of videos floating around and a handful of files, but that is it.  Again, do a search.

It all depends what you want from the system - then build accordingly.   I don't want long sparks - I want the freaky stuff.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on February 19, 2008, 05:09:51 AM
YAY! Grumpy hit 1000 posts! ;D
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on February 19, 2008, 05:32:22 AM
Removed
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on February 19, 2008, 06:55:46 AM
 :'(
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on February 20, 2008, 02:34:57 PM
@Charlie_V

Thanks for the calculations. I will keep this on hand.

@Grumpy

Good posts also. Both you and @CV have provided some eye-openers.

@all

Before embarking on the second relay, I decided to send the choke (secondary of my first toroid) into the secondary side of my second toroid (both identical). Output on the primary side of the second toroid is 127 vdc. The wire on the relay started to smoke, but not the relay itself. Played around with the cap bank again and stabilized it so less hard on the relay and wires and it still makes in the range of 111-127 vdc.

Now how do I use the second relay...

More fun to come.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on February 20, 2008, 03:52:30 PM
The two relays toggle back and forth - like a multivibrator.  Erfinder confirmed this.  I posted a schematic of this earlier in this thread.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: am1ll3r on February 20, 2008, 04:28:06 PM
@ All

Tip No. 1

The first relay has two functions; it is the circuit controller, and the circuit of high self induction.  The latter however, is not large enough for the purpose of charging the capacitor of the local circuit, an additional choking coil is required. 

Quote:
The circuit including the motor is of relatively high self-induction, and this property is imparted to it by the coils of the motor, or when these are not sufficient, by the addition of suitable choking-coils...."
End Quote.

This is where the (toroid) transformer comes in.  The secondary of the transformer serves as the choking coil.  This transformer was selected specifically because of the current carrying capability its secondary winding, and its low resistance (mine measures 21.5 ohm).  This coil is a perfect addition to the relay.  Because the current is moving through the motor (resistance of mine measures 141 ohms) of the relay before it enters the choke (secondary) coil, current draw will fluctuates between 0.085 - 0.1 amps.  (Low current draw due to the high resistance of the relay motor coil.) The primary of this transformer is not used. 

It should now be understood that an additional transformer is required, since the first transformer is used not as a transformer proper but as a choking coil.  It is recommended that the primary of the second transformer have a resistance of 21.5 to 24 ohm, this sets current draw at 0.5 amps, it can be seen in the patent (568,177 Apparatus for Producing Ozone) that the primary is connected directly with the source via the circuit controller H.  For this reason the selected relays are DPDT.  Half of the relay connections are configured so that the relay periodically interrupts the current supplying its own motor, and series connected choking coil, and the remaining connections are dedicated to connecting and disconnecting the primary of the second transformer with the source.

The second relay functions to short circuit the capacitor that the working circuit is charging once it has reached a certain level.  I would like to add that the chosen capacitor (10,000uf) can and will weld the contacts of the relay together, therefore it would be wise to select a smaller capacity capacitor, mind you, the contacts will be attacked regardless of the capacity chosen.  There are remedies but it is for you to find them.

The relays do not operate at the same frequency; the second relay operates at a frequency which is much lower frequency than the first relay for obvious reasons. 


Have Fun?.


Regards



Humm...
The second relay functions to short circuit the capacitor that the working circuit is charging once it has reached a certain level.

I'm wondering myself how this is done.
I'm assuming in the working circuit we have a cap a HV diode and the relay...

Any thoughts on this ? ;)
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: am1ll3r on February 20, 2008, 05:32:54 PM
Humm..
Looking into patent <a href="http://www.google.com/patents?id=66VeAAAAEBAJ&pg=PP1&dq=462,418&source=gbs_selected_pages&cad=0_1#PPP1,M1"> # 462,418 Method of and Apparatus for Electrical Conversion and Distribution</a>

After all we want to convert the working circuit into something we can use. :)
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on February 20, 2008, 10:18:59 PM
  :)
Doh---double post
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on February 20, 2008, 10:19:21 PM
Now that we have managed to charge a capacitor through Teslas "method of conversion", we should also understand what we can do with a charged capacitor. We have been taught that "static" charges and inductive discharge currents have no power but this is very far from the truth, what we have not understood is how to effectively use these currents. Here is a very good site which explains what "static" electricity is ---- it is high voltage electricity.
http://www.amasci.com/emotor/stmiscon.html#eleven

One easy experiment which we can do with erfinders circuit is to connect a 12v lightbulb across the primary coil (low self-inductance)without the secondary in place, you will see nothing happens, is there is no power in the inductive discharge?
Now connect the lightbulb across the primary circuit capacitor and we will see the 12v from the battery will light the bulb dimly---- but every time the high self-inductance discharges the bulb will get super bright, so much it will destroy the bulbs filament in a few cycles. So here we could say the inductive discharge has power but only after being discharged into a capacitor. ;) If we put a diode inbetween the high self-inductance and low self-inductance next to the low self-inductance we will also measure the full inductive discharge voltage across the diode and your capacitor will remain charged but will not oscillate as it is trapped in the capacitor, I am running about 300v on my caps. A 12v lightbulb placed across the diode will also light as the capacitor will discharge through it back to the high self-inductance.
Here is a neat circuit which uses a charged capacitor to its advantage-----
http://www.rexresearch.com/mckie/mckie.htm
In figure 2A, tank-2, if you follow the "current flow discharge path" we will see a charged capacitor(C-2) discharges through a load (low self-inductance) and a high self-inductance(L-2). In Figure 2B, tank-2, the "current flow discharge path", we see the current is allowed to continue on its course once the capacitor has been switched out of the circuit, current in load and L-2 is allowed to flow until current flow has ceased. Notice the polarity of L-2 has reversed in 2B versus 2A. In Figure 2C, tank-2, the high self-inductance L-2 reverses its current flow and recharges capacitor C-2 ---- the source of the initial current. A path is also allowed for the inductive discharge from the load to be recovered in the feedback controller. We could say the only energy supplied to the circuit is to top up the capacitors but the circulating current is very large. I wonder what the best way would be to charge these capacitors? I would think Tesla's "method of conversion" would do this rather well.
Here is a simplified version of one tank circuit.----
The operation is as follows:
1 and 3 on
2 and 3 on
4 on
repeat---
P.S.-- I should mention I do not use switches or relays for contacts 1-4, I use a circular commutator(circuit disrupter) made from a copper clad circuit board attached to the shaft of my 120v motor ---- L-2. ;)


Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on February 21, 2008, 06:03:24 PM
@AC

In case the site goes down again, I wanted to quickly say that I thank you for your  last post and links which I have gone to. Some of this stuff goes above my head but I will be studying the circuit you posted.

@all

Yesterday I took apart a microwave oven that we were going to throw out at the office. Hey I got a great looking transformer that has a primary, a secondary and there is also a third small coil between them with about 10 turns. I am wondering if I can use that coil as a field displacement coil. I want to test this tonight on the current one relay system to see if there is any change in production, etc. Will let you know.

PS: There is a .92uf 1200v cap in the microwave so it should have been pulsing real fast. The magnetron is really crazy also and there is really nothing much to it. Two small coils  inside the cover box then it goes to the magnetron. Incredible what we can do with waves.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on February 21, 2008, 10:52:34 PM
@wattsup
An old microwave is a great place to scavange parts, the cap I use in my circuit is 0.95uF@2100volts from an older microwave oven--you don't want to know what these cost retail. Plus the transformer contains a large amount of fine and coarse guage wire, I usually strip the wire and wind them on better cores as the transformer is best suited to 60Hz and I am running considerably higher than that. I just use an angle grinder to cut off the ends of the transformer then drill one shallow hole on each end of the core so the transformer can rotate between two bolts in these holes like a large wire spool, then use a drill to wind the wire on an empty spool or your new core --- I can clear a microwave transformer of its wire in about 2 minutes per section---- thats a lot of wire.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Charlie_V on February 21, 2008, 10:57:26 PM
@allcanadian

How long can the lightbulb in your circuit last before it stops flashing (assuming no more input of energy other than charging the capacitors up in the very beginning)?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on February 22, 2008, 04:06:26 AM
So you know..............

90% if not more of microwave oven caps are connected in parallel to a resistor (inside the cap casing, you typically cannot see it), typically greater than 1Mohm
this equates to current leakage (safety feature).

Take what you will from this information. And remember, ohms law and what this means for your large voltages.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on February 22, 2008, 04:13:05 AM
@AC

Thanks for the heads up on the transformer but I really wanted to try this out on my current build under the Trial #3 diagram and used my 88uf 1200 volts cap on the output side, no second relay "yet". So I just removed the toroid and replaced it with this microwave transformer. Just pushed the on button for about 5 seconds and the system blew my 110 volts bulb immediately (yeh I had left that on by mistake) and voltage went up to 650 volts before I stopped it. What a scare. Holly crap. I have to understand what the hell is going on here. This is beginning to be some serious juice. Will have to measure voltage/amperage etc., but with so high a load. Maybe I can contact SM and borrow his bank of 10 lights. It must be lying around somewhere collecting dust. lol

Added:

@armagdn03

Yes I saw the resistor right off the cap going to the chassis ground. Also the transformer secondary had one side connected to the transformer armature as ground but I took this off to isolate the secondary before doing the above test. Don't worry I won't be doing any microwaving.

Added again:

OK I brought it up to 1280 volts, but I know now that the amperage is totally minimal. The 110 volts bulb I had was a small one the size of a golf ball rated at 7.5 watts. I put a regular bulb rated at 100 watts 120volts, started the system, no light and voltage was held around 3 volts with the load on. So no, it will not light the bulb.  But 1 now have 1200 volts power supply that I can use to send to some other coils. Still great. Will try by reversing the coils.

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on February 22, 2008, 07:51:57 PM
just to make sure you understood what I said, try hooking up an ohm meter to the terminals of your microwave oven cap, if it reads a resistance, then there could be problems. If it reads zero, you are good to go.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: am1ll3r on February 24, 2008, 02:10:20 PM
@ wattsup,

Was reading through the threads again an I noticed on your schematic your transformer appears to be backwards.Is it just drawn wrong or is that the way you have it? Maybe I'm wrong but i thought it is supposed to the other way around. I tried my setup both ways and when doing it the same way you have it I get lousy results ...cant charge a cap at all.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on February 24, 2008, 02:40:39 PM
@am1ll3r

In Erfinder instructions, the choke goes to the primary (which is the 240V side) and the secondary is the working circuit (which is the 24v side). I have tried it both ways also and it works OK. Also tried it with two other transformers and it also works, but in all instances, you will need to play around with capacitor values to get the right toggling action on the first relay.

Also, you can try putting the capacitor connection that now goes to the blue wire going to the relay coil and choke side, to the other side of the choke going to the NC relay contact. This will give you the full inductance of both the relay coil and the choke, to charge the capacitor.

If you look at the diagram, the primary of the transformer is completely isolated since  both sides are connected to the two N/O terminals of the relay. All this circuit is basically doing is charging the cap and discharging it into the primary (or secondary if the other way around), plus it is cycling the power going to the relay to reset itself.

I have tried putting that cap at various other locations but cannot achieve the complete connection of the common terminal to the N/O terminal, This is the only way I have found this to work.

By the way, I am now working on the second relay connections which is much more trickier to do since there is no choke to increase the inductance. All we have is a relay, a diode and a cap. Plus the damn relay keeps hogging the juice as it is produced so it really has to be isolated until there is enough build-up to make it toggle. But a regular diode just let's the juice pass at a much lower voltage so the relay coil hogs it up again.

I have made it work in various ways but not to my satisfaction. I am sure I will need a zener diode rated at 10-12 volts as this would act like a solenoid, opening only when their is enough juice. I am concentrating my tests to try and recharge the source battery and see if the voltage off the battery will rise. That would be the icing on the cake. lol

For your set-up, you need to have more capacitors. Erfinders initial 47uf was a place to start but you need to tune your specific relay coil/choke inductance to capacitance in order to make that relay toggle to both the N/C and N/O terminals. Put a meter on the N/O side to see if you get any output off the relay, since it may be hard to see if the relay is clicking to fast. Also make sure your wires on the relay are well tightened since a few of them may heat up and get loose.

More fun to come.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: barbosi on February 24, 2008, 08:26:44 PM
In Erfinder instructions, the choke goes to the primary [snip]

He was referring to the primary as in the patent.
If you read the patent...

More fun to come.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on February 24, 2008, 11:34:36 PM
 ;) electrically this should look identical to the patent.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: am1ll3r on February 25, 2008, 12:26:28 AM
I still have not figured out the working side but here is what is working for me...
My cap C2 will charge up to 50V in under 10 seconds. It can be tweaked but I'm going to need another transformer.
Looking for an old Microwave ;D


Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on February 25, 2008, 03:04:10 AM
I still have not figured out the working side but here is what is working for me...


To figure out the working side is to..........well, solve your problem. A suggestion, or perhaps a proposal, figure out how the load affects the source, or perhaps the source the load. really what is the difference?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Ren on February 29, 2008, 09:40:40 AM
I have been following this thread closely guys, although I havent posted much. I had an idea the other night while I was toying with one of my monopole motors. I was thinking that I could use one of them to run as the load on the secondary. It is totally variable in amp draw from 25ma to 250ma or more. I know that this project is designed to learn as much as we can about Tesla basics which means using as little amount of solid state stuff as possible. However, the load can be anything, no?

Am I understanding it correctly that we want the secondary  (which is coupled to the load?) to oscillate  too? If so then this simple monopole would fit the bill quite well, and would allow some variations in tuning etc. AND your charging batteries on the back end of it too. It would be great to step up the voltage and then run the monopole off the secondary cap. I am still collecting parts and studying/learning the basics, I'd like to hear any comments?

Keep up the good work guys!
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on February 29, 2008, 02:49:09 PM
@Erfinder

Thanks for straightening us out. Granted I am like a kid with his first fire truck just rolling it all over the place. Also, there is this innate OUers' desire to always want to loop things back. Force of habit.

I have already noticed that the battery is going down very very slowly and am in the process of working out the second relay connections, but without a load it was hard to see if one is on the right track so I had been testing this with different light bulb wattage values from 7.5 to 100 watts, etc.

Consider that us novices have had a smidgen of time with this compared to yourself or others that have tried this. Blend this project with others that I am working on presently and the alloted time does also become a factor.

I remember when you said this Ozone Patent does not necessarily have to produce ozone, and that is what has stuck like Krazy Glue. (Oops no advertising allowed.lol)

I am surprised that my first relay is still holding out because I have seen many types of contact sparks being either orange (regular dc sparks), blue and a very plasmid green, with some ozone production to boot.

My microwave transformer is giving me up to 600 volts in about 5-6 seconds of the system on time which is just mind boggling. My present trials with a second relay is making it work but in a very erratic frequency and I am trying to work around this with only the allowed number of components you have indicated. I now think the second relay coil has to be in parallel to a load so the load would take the power down and reset the relay to re-charge the working capacitor. But there are so many variables possible and it will take time. I am usually doing modifications to my drawing first, then applying it to the setup so I do not lose track of what has been done. I am up to drawing number 18. lol

If Humbugger was still here, he would immediately say, "hey but again this is 600 volts of reactive power with no punch". Hmmmmmmmm.

Your indication of running a motor to run a generator has not fallen on deaf ears. I have plenty of dc motors with a wide range of voltage and amperage values and I can set this up rather quickly. I am thinking a small 90 volts 1 amp motor should do fine as a drive and use a 24 volts 20 amp motor as a generator.

Lastly, please note that while I am doing this project, it really has opened my eyes to so many other things that could be applied to other projects and I need to actually concentrate on one or two, but the temptation is so great. lol. But please know that just because we have not posted in several days, it does not mean we have abandoned.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on February 29, 2008, 04:51:26 PM
If the purpose of this circuit is to produce currents of high frequency and potential then it should be designed as such. The large self-inductance L1 is the means to raise the potential but how would we raise the frequency?. The period of oscillation in a circuit is based on the values of L and C, inductance and capacitance so to get a high frequency we would want a small value for L and a small value for C. In the diagram below L1 is the High self-inductance, L2 is the low self-inductance so we have the means to raise the frequency . We would charge the high self-inductance through contacts 1 (NC-- normally closed) then open the contacts 1 to produce a high potential discharge through L2 to charge the capacitor. The diode ensures the capacitor does not dischchage back through L2 and L1 and is only needed if you want very slow switching speeds. Next we would need to form a circuit of low self-inductance and small capacitance to produce a high frequency, in order to do this we would need to disconnect L1 from the circuit by opening contacts 3 (NC) these would open just after contacts 1(NC) they would be sequential in operation.Next we would need to form the circuit of low self-inductance, we would do this by having the contacts of 1 swing over to the (NO) side and close the contacts 2, the circuit of C and L2 is now a circuit of low self-inductance and a charged capacitor which will oscillate at high frequency, this frequency based on the values of L2 and C. The High potential high frequency oscillations in L2 and C will be transfered to the secondaries of L2 raising the potential further yet. Thus on the secondaries we have currents of high frequency and potential. This circuit setup is not the same as Tesla's, I think it is the slow motion version of the process he was using but basically produces similar results. The contacts 1,2 and 3 are a single DPDT relay.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on February 29, 2008, 05:35:33 PM
@AC

If I compare my last diagram to what you have shown, I think that is pretty much what we are doing, but in your diagram, where would you put the coil for the relay as this also has to be inline or is it L1. Don't forget we are using a relay coil, a choke coil and a primary coil of a transformer. Also, there is no way this will work at very fast frequencies on the relay side since the contacts will not go to the NO side. Also, in the tests with fast relay movement, the common terminal is not really contacting well even to the NC side and there is no power production at all. This indicates that when Tesla was doing this with his physical rotary contacts, regardless of the speed he used, he would always get open and closed conditions at each interval, thus pushing the circuit with full force. That rotary must have made some nice sparks. Doing this with a relay too fast is like maintaining the common terminal in an almost floating state between both NC and NO contacts. So there is some give and take that you have to do to get it to work properly. This weekend I will put my scope on the relay and take a photo to post here so you can maybe tell me what is going on in terms of timing, etc. I will make sure to have at least two spikes in the photo and provide you with the scope settings.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on February 29, 2008, 05:57:51 PM
@wattsup
The relay coil is a high self-inductance coil so realistically there is only one place it can go and that is next to the choking coil, so yes the relay coil is part of L1.My relay is switching about 30 cps with a very small cap in parallel with the relay, what has not been mentioned is that the relay has a spring on it as well, which can be loosened so the relay contact does hit the NO contact. If you bend the NO, NC contacts inward the rate is fairly fast and both contacts work. I could not use the relay as it was and had to do a little tweaking to get it setup.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on February 29, 2008, 06:40:58 PM
@Erfinder


Your indication of running a motor to run a generator has not fallen on deaf ears. I have plenty of dc motors with a wide range of voltage and amperage values and I can set this up rather quickly. I am thinking a small 90 volts 1 amp motor should do fine as a drive and use a 24 volts 20 amp motor as a generator.


Woah! I dont ever remember erfinder saying that this thing should be connected to a generator, I believe what he said was

"A motor which produces USABLE TORQUE, and an ELECTRICAL OUTPUT.   Unfortunately no one is interested.  For some reason no one can seem to see past charging capacitors and batteries.   Undecided "

@alcadian!

Nice description of how currents of high frequency and high potential are created!!!! You made me smile big!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The reason I like that so damn much, is because you are leaving the "lets randomly put things here, here and here, and see what happens" and are entering the world of understanding why it was built, and how the effects wanted are achieved! I also liked your picture, it looks almost exactly like the first one I ever drew of this patent ways back, but without two controllers.

Its not enough to simply know what a component does! You have to know why it does it, and how it does it. Understand every facet of the things you are working with! Im not gonna do long write ups on how I see components working, so you can either find it out for yourself, or you can ask someone personally.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on February 29, 2008, 06:41:37 PM
@Erfinder


Your indication of running a motor to run a generator has not fallen on deaf ears. I have plenty of dc motors with a wide range of voltage and amperage values and I can set this up rather quickly. I am thinking a small 90 volts 1 amp motor should do fine as a drive and use a 24 volts 20 amp motor as a generator.


Woah! I dont ever remember erfinder saying that this thing should be connected to a generator, I believe what he said was

"A motor which produces USABLE TORQUE, and an ELECTRICAL OUTPUT.   Unfortunately no one is interested.  For some reason no one can seem to see past charging capacitors and batteries.   Undecided "

@alcadian!

Nice description of how currents of high frequency and high potential are created!!!! You made me smile big!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The reason I like that so damn much, is because you are leaving the "lets randomly put things here, here and here, and see what happens" and are entering the world of understanding why it was built, and how the effects wanted are achieved! I also liked your picture, it looks almost exactly like the first one I ever drew of this patent ways back, but without two controllers.

Its not enough to simply know what a component does! You have to know why it does it, and how it does it. Understand every facet of the things you are working with! Im not gonna do long write ups on how I see components working, so you can either find it out for yourself, or you can ask someone personally.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Ren on March 01, 2008, 12:42:33 AM
@ Erfinder. I do apologize for my Bedini remarks in my last post. My intention was never to lead this thread astray but rather to discuss or provoke thought into how the power collected in the secondary circuit could be used, and HOW it should be used i.e. pulsing etc. The thing is the monopole can be designed for useable torque and electrical output, but I wont bother bringing any of this up in this thread.

I was a little confused and perhaps you will enlighten me  (or not) as to your comment here.

"You are suppose to be charging this cap and discharging it into the primary of a transformer!"

I first assumed that you were reffering in this instance to the larger capacitor represented in the original patent by the ozone plates and connected to the secondary of the transformer.

Now, after re-reading I think you are reffering to the smaller capacitor ( 47uf) placed in the primary circuit. You fill this capacitor from your source and pulse it through your primary. Surely you dont mean the larger capacitor is discharged through another transformer do you?

I apologize for my thick headedness, but like Wattsup said us novices here have had little time to study and understand the principles here. And I havent even got my firetruck running yet :(

@ AC. Thanks for your diagram and comments regarding the switching and the processes that occur.

I'll continue to watch and hopefully learn, build and achieve.

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on March 01, 2008, 03:36:11 AM
@Erfinder

After reading The patent a few times.. letter H is a "synchronous rotary spark gap" on the same axel as the motor in the primary circuit. So when the motor's current in the primary controller circuit is interrupted, the flyback is dumped through the brushes into the into the capacitor "L" which charges until the brushes g and k make contact with the rotary disk discharging that capacitor into the Primary "Coil&Cap"/LC after the rotary gap.  Pretty cool how They designed circuit controllers in those days. The part i find most interesting is how artistically he solved the switching. The wheel and its many uses.  It also clearly states that a motor and or incandescent light bulb can be hooked up on the secondary and driven at little cost. So now i see your point this potential motor on the secondary coil Probably has a mechanical power output much larger than "unity" or its given electrical input so in essence erfinder has shown us a motor that can mechanically put out much more horse power than put in electrically.   

The patent right after this one helped make this become more clear to me.. This one the ozone patent  has a SET output determined by the physical components and the input dc voltage. Pat 568,178 (Good Call IS.. you were  right" . The Circuit of high self induction in the motor can be modified with a thrid coil that is a hollow  chocking coil and an iron rod in it that can be moved in or out to change the inductance in the primary controlling circuit ... I seem remember a reference to a electric car and a few iron rods moved in and out of a box .. I wonder.  Anyways great thread guys. 
                                                                                                                                               Joe
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Ren on March 01, 2008, 03:46:26 AM
Ok Thanks Erfinder.

I find your methods of learning/teaching to be refreshing in a world where most just want it to work and dont really care too much how it works. While it can be frustrating (learning often is) it does instill a sense of achievement (not to mention valuable lessons learned) if we struggle ourselves to find the answers. I understand what you are saying about the monopole and how it can be misleading etc...

So essentially in this design there should be one transformer to amplify/capture our useable currents then these currents should be discharged through another separate transformer?  A load connected directly to the secondaries capacitor is not ideal in other words?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on March 01, 2008, 02:54:45 PM
When the capacitor L discharges it also re-charges the source thus making the system very energy efficient.

The craziest thing about the Ozone patent, for me anyway, is I still do not know for 100% certainty which of Terminals A or B is the positive and negative. The only clue is the fan on the motor that should push the air through the ozone spark channel. But there again the rotation of the motor will depend on how the fan blades are actually oriented. The way I see it, it should work either way and at worst, you would have to change the fan blades orientation. In my current EC design, I am basing it on the Tesla patent with Terminal A being positive.

"You can save yourself some time and trouble in this regard if you just wind the secondary bifilar.  When the self-induction is canceled, then you can begin thinking up a use for your big capacitor."

I am a bit confused. Is this referring to the choke coil or the secondary of the transformer? Also, either choke or transformer, if the coil has two secondaries in series, would this be "close" to bifilar?

"The capacitor connected to the secondary is not just any old capacitor, it is selected specifically for its ability to cancel the self-induction of the secondary.  With self-induction out of the way the only opposition to current flow is ohmic resistance!  This capacitor is charged and discharged abruptly into the primary of a second transformer, the load is connected to this transformers secondary."

Would this second transformer also act as a voltage regulator?
Ooooooooooooooooo. More fun!
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on March 01, 2008, 05:53:57 PM
@Erfinder

"The circuit including. the motor is of rela-, 90
tively high self-induction, and this property
is imparted to it by the coils of the motor, or,
when these are not sufficient, by the addition
of suitable choking - coils, so that at each
break of the motor-circuit a current of high 95
electromotive force will be developed for
charging the condenser, which may therefore
be small and inexpensive"

So the cap gets charged on the off cycle of the motor?  I took it as meaning that a spark from a long choking coil or motor was given a pathway through the  primary working circuit when the brushes g k were not a pathway in the controlling circuit At that moment. So the working circuit accepts the charge of high electromotive force when the motor breaks connection,   and it discharges when the motor makes connection. This reminds me Of the procedure to discharge a coil gun very rapidly. cool beans and thanks for straiting me out on the discharge path. I always see incandescents hooked up in his patents off of secondary and he always mentions motors can be placed there .. Quick question, is a resistive load needed in the secondary circuit before the motor(an inductive load)  to serve a purpose or have you taken it as either or.?
                                                                         Thanks
                                                                                       Joe

Ps Heres a link for the patent i converted it to SEARCHABLE pdf so folks can use the find option or the select tool to copy and paste text. all that is needed is adobe reader enjoy 
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Ren on March 01, 2008, 10:44:21 PM
[quote author=Erfinder link=topic=3972.msg79819#msg79819 date=1204385404
This is food for thought.  A direct reference to the secondary.  We are using prefabricated transformers, we therefore must use a capacitor for the purpose of canceling the self-induction.  If you were in the position to wind your own secondary, bifilar would be the way to go.  Before you ask why please refer to the patent Tesla was granted for this particular type of coil. [/quote]

So by winding a bifilar secondary we are able to cancel self induction without a capacitor?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 02, 2008, 06:08:24 PM
Today let's concentrate not on what Teslas circuit does but the actions and properties of the components. One of erfinders recent quotes of Tesla was -----
Quote
I mean that you have to have in the circuit, inertia. You have to have a large self-inductance in order that you may accomplish two things: First, a comparatively low frequency, which will reduce the radiation of the electromagnetic waves to a comparatively small value, and second, a great resonant effect
Inertia  ;)
Consider the picture below, we have on the far left a balloon in air --- the black arrow in the balloon is a force applied to the balloon. Next frame (2) we see that should the balloon "move" two forces evolve (two forces of opposition) the red waves are pressure acting against the balloons motion, the blue waves a suction force acting against the balloons motion. This constant applied force producing motion will always be opposed. Next frame (3) we are no longer applying a force on the balloon as indicated by the black arrow that is missing. But in this motional system we have the properties of mass and inertia or momentum and as such the forces opposing the motion of the balloon now reverse as indicated. "Things in motion tend to stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force", this should sound familiar  :) The momentum of the surrounding air now pushes the balloon in the direction of the initial applied force, we could see this as a resonant effect---- action/reaction. Next in frame (4) we see the possibility of what "could" happen if we understand the properties of this system. What would happen if we coupled the "reaction" of the surrounding media with an impulsive applied force(action) in the same direction?------ we can see all force arrows are acting in the same direction producing what could be considered a resonant or magnifying effect of force. But we should remember that force is not motion, force leads to motion ---- motion has momentum as motion implies something has moved from one place to another.
In the context of the balloon analogy we could say the circuit below could act in a similar way. If we see the circuit from a mechanical perspective we could say our "electric fluid" has force, an electrical pressure measured as voltage, it has motion as an electrical current thus has momentum, so we cannot ignore the inertial effects in our system. In this respect we could say L1 the large self-inductance can act as a large mass, as L2 would act similar but to a lesser extent. The capacitance "C" would act as a flexible rubber membrane to our electrical fluid and the circuit disrupter as a quick acting valve.
If we then apply these "mechanisms" to the circuit we can see that a flow or motion in L1 will tend to stay in motion as it has large inertial effects --- momentum. If the circuit disrupter should be opened and closed rapidly the applied force or electrical pressure would start L1 in motion, once in motion the circuit disrupter opens and this momentum then acts on L2 and C. But C was already under pressure from the source (+) so this pressure on C must be increased as the momentum of L1 is acting to increase this pressure through a suction force from L1--L2-- to C. This fluid in motion will pressurize C to a point that the momentum of L1 is spent then the flow must reverse as there is still a great pressure imbalance on C. At this point we can see the the system will oscillate back and forth, force leading to motion ----motion to momentum----momentum to force. A symphony of action and reaction orcastrated by the properties or qualities of the instruments, we should let them sound as nature intended as we cannot make them something they cannot be. If we apply the action and reactions of the balloon analogy above we can see the application of force in a system,  when electrical pressure is applied to this circuit, greatly influences the magnitude of oscillation as well as the maintenance of the oscillation. So as we can see there is more happening here than meets the eye and we should carefully consider the components we place in this circuit even more so the "properties" of these components.
Best of luck
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Ren on March 02, 2008, 10:07:13 PM
Nice analogy AC! I had a little moment like this yesterday on my way home from work. My daughter was in the front seat and had hung her hand bag from the sun visor. It sunk in as we went around a long sweeping corner. The hand bag swung out and stayed off center till we straightened up. I know its simple and not totally related but it made me think of the qualities of motion and how they effect the objects around us.

I look at your circuit and see this. Electrical pressure flows through to the capacitor (non polarized in this instance?) when the switch is open. The abrupt closing of the switch offers a greater/quicker path of inductance by bypassing the other components. Energy surges forward and inertia begins. The opening of the switch leaves our pressure disconnected and its only path is to its right through a coil (of low self inductance?) which compresses(?) the surge back into the capacitor. In this embodiment  the capacitor would keep rising in voltage above the source every time the switch was opened. It is easy to visualise this in a pumping action related to water.

One last question.

If this was the ozone patent our secondary would be connected to L1 as this is our transformer and circuit of high self induction, yes? Does the secondary of this transformer resonate in union with its primary when the switch closes and as current flows through the primary? How is it effected upon switch opening, does it simply shut off due to a lack of flow through the primary? Or does the pumping action of the primary effect the secondary in another way?

Thanks for your insights.

S
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: AhuraMazda on March 02, 2008, 10:24:05 PM
A good study of transients as of 1914 can be found here:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3779.msg76799.html#msg76799

AM
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on March 02, 2008, 11:09:33 PM
@Allcanadian
After understanding the Discharge path as stated in the patent and by erfinder above

 These words from the patent "so that at each break of the motor-circuit a current of high electromotive force will be developed for charging the condenser, which may therefore be small and inexpensive"


A second thought is this.. take your finger in a glass of water and swirl it in a circle , if you do this at an even pace you can see and feel the inertia the water builds.  If done erratically/not synchronously the same effect is not achieved.
That same logic holds true that when the switch from the motor is broken the spark that would be seen normally is sent through the working lc circuit. the Primary coil and its cap .  As stated before this is a series resonate circuit.  This leg of the circuit is shorted during the on cycle of the motor and discharged during the off or break in the cycle.  This cycle of events needs to happen in at a repeated and given interval for the desired result to be achieved in the secondary.  If the timing of the discharge is not in line with the off cycle of the motor so as to receive the current of high electromotive force the effect will not be present in the secondary or severely limited.   
Just some thoughts.
                                                                                                      Joe

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: popolibero on March 03, 2008, 12:08:03 AM
Hi everyone,

If I may jump in... I started studying Tesla's patents a while ago and am currently going through the colorado spring notes. I've been working on Bedini solid state circuitry for over a year and am now trying to expand my understanding in applying Tesla's one wire system and started off with the ozone patent. I have a working circuit, although running with a mosfet as a switch, a high inductance discharging into the tank circuit, and cone shaped tesla coil as primary and secondary. I know you are using other components and I certainly don't want to disrupt the "class". I just wanted to add my humble point of view. The last schematic posted seems right to me. The tank circuit is like a bell (tank circuit) with its own resonant freq determined by the components. The high inductance is ringing this this bell at a lower frequency, but it can't be a random frequency. You can also immagine the tank circuit as a swing, it has its own rythm, so you (high inductance) have to push it at the right moment or it won't be efficient or it will stop.
When the switch is closed the supply charges the hi-inductance coil, when opened, its collapsing field discharges into the small cap through the primary of transformer. The switch then closes again to charge the coil. In the mean time the transf.primary and small cap do their ping pong game exchanging the stored energy back and forth, till the next bang from the hi-inductance coil.
hope this helps.

regards,
Mario
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 03, 2008, 03:04:23 AM
@popolibero
I would agree the Primary and capacitor do not necessarily follow the frequency of the high self-inductance.
@Ren
In my last post the circuit "is" teslas patent 568177, I edited it to show the secondary on L2.

Here are some pictures of a similar circuit, circuit 1 is Teslas patent 568177, circuit 2 is a DC-DC step-up converter or commonly called a switch mode converter. In these circuits I have shown two sets of polarities, a truth table for polarities, the polarity closest to the top of the picture is the polarity in a charging condition and the polarity below is the polarity in a inductance discharging condition. Notice in circuit 2, the DC-DC step-up converter that the inductor L1 is charging when the switch closes with the (+) polarity closest the the source battery on the left, when the switch opens the inductor L1 changes polarity. Here we can see the polarity of the inductor is such that "it" acts as a source in series with the source battery. The inductor acts like a battery in series would thus the electrical pressure on the capacitor rises above the source battery voltage, but the inductor has very different properties than a battery.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Ren on March 03, 2008, 03:35:55 AM
Ok AC,


So in number 1 L1 is the circuit of high self induction, in the case of 568177 the motor coils (and choking coil when appropriate) and L2 is the transformer. I had them around backwards in my head.

I found the polarities you showed very interesting in that they are opposites under different conditions. I feel like that alone is something profound, I cant quite put my finger on it yet, I'll let it sink in.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on March 03, 2008, 07:06:42 AM
@AC

Pretty neat and just in time. I don't know what is in the air this weekend but I really really needed to take a few steps back to read up and prepare a post on my understanding of "Self-Inductance" as can be expected by this non-EE brain of mine. Thick skull and all. This understanding is the heart-beat of these circuits and Tesla's and Erfinder's emphasis is so wide reaching. Knowing that if I can understand this aspect and master its application, this is definitely key for me and many others.

But here's the problem. I am reading the words, I am understanding the words, but I really really need to see this in action or in animation. So much so that today, after your very timely post, I decided to drop everything and start working on an animation of your little circuit. I have already prepared the main look, which is simple enough and shown below.

I will keep it here on this post and work out the finer movements with your guidance, if possible. If you can take the next post, we could use these two posts until this animation is what it should be. This side challenge will help me and I am sure others to "see" what's going on. We could take it step by step and the adjustments to the animation are simple enough that I am sure this could be done quickly enough. I would simply re-post the new animation on this post and date it to not take up more space on the thread.

The drawing program I use is Corel Draw, make the changes and cut and paste it into a Gif Maker which is a nifty little and simple program to use.

Also if Erfinder or others have corrections, they can also intervene and hopefully we can have something that can really "show" as well as "tell" the story.

Great posts from all. I am beginning to catch this. Wow.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on March 06, 2008, 03:00:38 AM
@AC

Hope I did not put you on the spot or anything like that. Please forget my suggestion maybe some were waiting for you to take the next post before they posted some other results. So let' s just forget it and move on.

@all

As per ACs diagram shown above, I did some tests with this exact setup. Unfortunately I am having trouble trying to integrate a DPDT relay into this scheme and have it do the switching of the working switch (not the main switch that is a manual switch).

But here's the good part. By simply pulsing manually only a 2-3 times, voltage went up to around 70 vdc off my microwave transformer secondary (S2) via a diode and capacitor. And you can hear the choke (L1) popping or kicking.

The problem with integrating a relay in this design is that when the whole system is started, the power draw on the battery leaves nothing for the relay to click. This is going really deep into the battery. If I put the relay coil in series before the choke coil, the relay cannot supply the current required and nothing happens.

I think what is required for this circuit is another circuit for the switching on a separate power supply, just to see what it will do. But the design itself is sound and it works. By adding any more components, this would obviously not qualify under the conditions set by Erfinder but it does warrant further testing for damn sure.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 06, 2008, 05:40:59 AM
@wattsup
This may help with your animation, the circuit below is patent 568177, I have included a small blue circle in the circuit where a diode can be placed as represented in the larger blue circle. If the diode is in place(blue circle) we can see the capacitor cannot discharge thus the voltage will continue to rise on the capacitor if the circuit controller is cycled.
If we look at the top circuit we can see the circuit controller is closed charging the large self-inductance (L1) in the direction indicated. I think we should see L1 as having the properties of inertia, like a large heavy flywheel, once in motion it will want to remain in motion --- just like a large inductance it will oppose motion (current) initially and if motion (current) is reduced it will use it's inertia (motion) to try to maintain the current by raising its voltage (electrical pressure).
Next in the lower circuit the circuit controller (cc) has been opened, since the inductance L1 has inertia it will continue pushing in the same direction(red arrows) in what is now a series circuit that is charging the capacitor above the supply voltage-- L1 is pulling from (+) and pushing to ( - ). The inertia of the inductance L1 charges the capacitor, my capacitor charges to about 250 volts with a single switch closure of about 1/10th of a second. :) Now look at the circuit, we have a capacitor charged to 250v and the supply battery at 12v, so the capacitor must discharge into the (+) connection of the battery as this is the only route available to it, this flow is the green arrows. So the inductance L1 is charged in an opposite sense when the capacitor is discharging,  the inertia of the inductance L1 then recharges the capacitor in an opposite sense. These oscillations continue until friction reduces the voltage to zero, but we should remember that the electrical pressure (voltage) drives these oscillations, higher pressure means the oscillations continue longer. Can you imagine how long let's say 10,000 volts would remain in oscillation in your circuit.
There is something else to consider, if the flow is in the direction of the red arrows and the capacitor is charged to 250v, what would happen if the circuit controller was closed at that instant?
We can see the capacitor could then discharge into the (+) of the supply battery "and" the small inductance L2. As L2 is a small inductance it could charge then discharge(green arrows) then reverse direction (red arrows) just as current started to flow through L1(red arrows).The oscillations of L2 and the capacitor help charge L1, the exact moment the circuit controller closes determines how much current recharges the source battery through the (+) connection and how much current charges L2 thus L1. We are talking about large voltage swings in microseconds so the timing of the circuit controller is critical. Also if C is at 250v and this potential is applied to L2 on closure of the circuit controller how can this potential effect L1, we are talking about a single wire between L1/L2 how could L1 not see this potential? or can it? ;D
We should also ask what have we lost in the process? the charging or addition of inertia to L1 charges the capacitor on discharge of this inertia so we have lost nothing but we have raised the electrical pressure(voltage) on the capacitor which is what Tesla wanted, an efficient means to charge a capacitor. :)
Now what the hell could be going on in the secondaries of L2? ;D

P.S. -- My inductance L1 is making a high pitched ping with every switch opening as well .
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on March 07, 2008, 11:06:18 PM
@AC

Thanks a heep for your great explanations and the two diagrams.

I will be looking alot closer to this during sunday, but I had a question for you regarding the circuit No. 1.

Why is it that when the switch is closed there is no current going through the cap and transformer primary. It would seem to me that even though the switch is closed, thus it is making a shorter route or route of less resistance from the positive to the negative, it seems to me that the capacitor and transformer primary should till receive some of the, well maybe not current flow but, some saturating action. I can't really say it in the right way but there has to be something going on there during the switch closure. Any ideas?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Ren on March 08, 2008, 12:30:30 AM
"Why is it that when the switch is closed there is no current going through the cap and transformer primary?"

Does current ever flow THROUGH the cap? My (basic) understanding of a capacitor is it is a number of finely spaced plates upon which builds a charge. The positive plate builds up a potential and wants to jump to the negative plate but it cant because they dont actually touch. I probably just showed how little I know by that statement, hopefully people can set me straight. Although with the diode in place the negative terminal is isolated from the negative terminal of the source so perhaps current does flow through this capacitor. I guess Im just trying to question everything....

"in what is now a SERIES circuit that is charging the capacitor "

this comment from AC made me think. Is the capacitor flip flopping from parallel to series connection with the battery upon switch toggling?

I have also been considering where the second switch/relay may be placed as per Erfinders original build specs. Is this second switch part of the circuit controller in AC's drawing? A better way to control the switching, or is it used elsewhere?

So many interesting things happening in such a simple circuit.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 08, 2008, 01:07:57 AM
@Ren
I think of a capacitor as like a rubber wall between (+)and (-), as the electrical pressure rises on one side the rubber stretches storing this pressure, when pressure is released the rubber wall stretches back forcing a flow of electrical fluid. As such current cannot flow "through" the wall of the capacitor but AC can flow back and forth, flowing back and forth is still a flow thus it is an energy transfer.
Quote
"in what is now a SERIES circuit that is charging the capacitor "
This is refering to the series circuit L1, L2, C and the source, what is not apparent is that the capacitor "C" will block a constant flow of current(DC) but can pass AC as the flow alternates back and forth. If the series circuit L1, L2, C and the source battery alternates the current flow back and forth (AC) then we can consider the source battery as acting exactly like a capacitor, It is the source when charging L1 and a capacitance once the circuit controller is opened. The whole circuit including the source battery is in oscillation.

There is something else we should consider, the series circuit L1,L2,C and the source battery has an alternating current flowing back and forth in the whole circuit---- including the large self-inductance which just so happens to be an AC MOTOR. An AC motor utilizes an alternating current flow to produce "work", this "work" is reflected back to the AC generator which in turn must do "work". So where is the AC generator? the large self-inductance and the capacitor C are the AC high frequency generator. ;D Nobody has considered the fact that if the motor had a very low RPM (highly loaded) then the motor cannot reflect this "work" back to the generator as in conventional systems---- there is no conventional AC generator! .In this instance a highly loaded motor , the large self-inductance, can only act as a stalled motor which allows a maximum current flow---this max current flow can either charge the capacitor "C" or charge the high self-inductance, both store this  energy then release it. The motor will act like a large inductor and not a motor so how can it "consume" energy, inductors do not consume energy they only store it for a while then release it.
Think about a commutated AC motor on a electric hand drill, if you stall the motor under high load you will trip the circuit breaker because the motor was drawing to many amps. In a DC motor if you overload it the high amps will roast you motor coils. If Teslas motor stalls in this circuit the most it can do is increase the frequency of oscillation in the circuit through maximum current flow. Make no mistake Tesla was brilliant!


Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 08, 2008, 04:16:11 AM
TESLA says....

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
ON LIGHT AND OTHER HIGH FREQUENCY PHENOMENA

The rushes of current may be of the same direction under the conditions before assumed, but most generally there is an oscillation superimposed upon the fundamental vibration of the current.  When the conditions are so determined that there are no oscillations, the current impulses are unidirectional and thus a means is provided of transforming a continuous current of high tension, into a direct current of lower tension, which I think may find employment in the arts.

This method of conversion is exceedingly interesting and I was much impressed by its beauty when I first conceived it.  It is ideal in certain respects.  It involves the employment of no mechanical devices of any kind, and it allows of obtaining currents of any desired frequency from an ordinary circuit, direct or alternating.  The frequency of the fundamental discharges depending on the relative rates of supply and dissipation can be readily varied within wide limits, by simple adjustments of these quantities, and the frequency of the superimposed vibration by the determination of the capacity, self-induction and resistance of the circuit.  The potential of the currents, again, may be raised as high as any insulation is capable of withstanding safely by combining capacity and self-induction or by induction in a secondary, which need have but comparatively few turns.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
This sounds to me Hetrodyning (a the process of mixing two AC signals, creating a third, at a lower frequency which is easier to amplify and use).

What interests me is the arc, here is the perfect million fold amplifier! from wire speed to  light speed through air. think about it!

and again....
Colorado Springs
June 24, 1899

 It is based on my observation that by passing through a rarefied gas a discharge of sufficient intensity, preferably one of high frequency, the resistance of the gas may be so diminished that it falls far below that of the best conductors.

 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
and heating the dielectric, changing it's pressure....

Now, as a test - put a match or lighter or candle under the spark gap and watch what happens!!!  this is the ultimate conductor!   /insulator sorta...

of electricity i say...
------------------------------------------------------
The spark gap is what I find most interesting, when in the blink of an eye an electrical phenomena occurs which almost defies imagination. The textures, colors, intensities of electrical power, the breaking of the dielectric barrier, the crack, breaking the speed of sound, the flash of light as electrons and ions are liberated at light speed, LIGHT! from wire speed to dielectric breakdown speed.  This, is amplification by velocity! Both pulse width and pulse frequency can be adjusted. Different materials show different effects, as varied as are the sparks that emanate.

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 10, 2008, 01:29:28 AM
@quantum1024
Quote
This sounds to me Hetrodyning (a the process of mixing two AC signals, creating a third, at a lower frequency which is easier to amplify and use).
Have you ever read that Tesla was mixing signals? He was not because there is no need, this is very easy once you build the circuit. Take the patent 568177 circuit, now remove the capacitor and you will find a single pulse from the circuit disrupter wil deliver just that ----- a single pulse. Now replace the capacitor and the oscillations will continue ten times longer if conditions are right. These oscillations represent "current" flowing back and forth at the resonance of the circuit, If current is flowing ten times longer then I can only guess that this current flows through the motor and primary ten times longer. Current flowing over time "is" power, if current flows longer then we can say more power has been delivered to the components doing work. The oscillations are dampened but the average current flow is still higher. The biggest problem I have encountered is that this is just too easy.  ;D
I have a feeling from the silence in this thread that some people are starting to get this as well, it's easy just do it.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on March 10, 2008, 03:06:18 AM
Hope the silence doesnt mean people are giving up and they really are getting it!
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Ren on March 10, 2008, 08:32:27 AM
Im still following and learning guys. I have learnt about as much as I can I think without getting my hands dirty. Now methinks its time to build!
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Frederic2k1 on March 10, 2008, 07:18:39 PM
Quote
Now replace the capacitor and the oscillations will continue ten times longer if conditions are right. These oscillations represent "current" flowing back and forth at the resonance of the circuit, If current is flowing ten times longer then I can only guess that this current flows through the motor and primary ten times longer. Current flowing over time "is" power, if current flows longer then we can say more power has been delivered to the components doing work. The oscillations are dampened but the average current flow is still higher. The biggest problem I have encountered is that this is just too easy.

I'm very impressed by these sentences. I'm sitting here on my computer, staring at this post since the last 10 minutes.
Is this really the key to overunity ?

I haven't thinked about it in this manner, well done. I have to start building.


Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: am1ll3r on March 11, 2008, 05:39:25 AM
Had a major DOH! moment because I thought that the tuned LC circuit was between the primary of the transformer and the cap.

I am in the process of making some sort of visulation of the drawing of the ozone patent. I want to take each step of the circuit apart and understand whats going on at each step. Ill be posting that as soon as I get it done.

I have a bunch of caps relays and transformers that have no harmonic relation and I realize I really don't know what or how to make them harmonic to each other. On the other hand I feel like I need to have a goal (I believe this was said here before) or a use for this circuit to tie into. Like pick a motor for an electric scooter or something and use the ozone circuit to power it. Not really sure if I'm thinking of this correct but thats how my mind works.

either way .... I am not giving up ... fact is I cant stop thinking about this ;)

Cheers ;D
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 11, 2008, 08:52:41 AM

@allcanadian

Nice! very Nice!  thats interesting... I tried the circuit with some simple inductors I had around and a battery, sure enough, within 2 mins I had what you suggested on page 10, the previous post. I liked and agree with you and everything you stated so far, makes sense.

I have for a long time believed that electronics was a bit too confined and needed some fresh perspective... electronics should include more or less terms or mechanical effects or terms into electronic terms such as, gyroscopic, mass, inertia etc.. it would be far more colorful in any case.

I have been playing with a 555 timer driving a high voltage transistor (from a tv ;) this switches a 110v to 420v industrial transformer I found. The output then connects to a high voltage diode; to a capacitor and to a spark gap back to the transformer. With this circuit I have been testing the spark gap, scaling voltages, frequencies and pulse widths from 0 to 500 Khz or so. Average voltages from ~3000 to 12,000 volts . My  Current draw is 12vdc at 100-300ma. The voltage on the collector of the transistor varies from 0-900vdc (also across the primary winding). Pulses are square wave. Very accurate, but still have drift & shift.

The power transformer is limited by it?s core material, frequency wise -it?s poor, thus air core is the solution. I have already built a 1000 turn 1-1/4? cardboard tube 20inchs long. 15.1ohm, 3.11Mh secondary coil.

I have no scanner, so no schematic, sorry.

Have you ever read that Tesla was mixing signals?
---> The first paragraph was from Tesla, which sounds like (but might not be), depending on the translation,  Hetrodyning. thats what I read anyway.

@Frederic2k1 - Overunity --- The Possibility exists...

We are getting it I believe, when a post makes you really think, then the post momentary dies as we all begin experimenting with a new vigor and insight.

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on March 11, 2008, 03:08:33 PM
Had a major DOH! moment because I thought that the tuned LC circuit was between the primary of the transformer and the cap.


either way .... I am not giving up ... fact is I cant stop thinking about this ;)

Cheers ;D

Hello again!

Thought I would chime in unwantedly, lol. Perhaps you should re-think your doh! moment, there is a tuned LC circuit between the primary of the transformer and the condenser L.  Who is to say that there is not another tuned LC circuit somewhere else? Say inbetween system of high self inductance and condenser L. Whose to say that these two LC's are not harmonically related also?

Think about the interplay of opposites, think about the different configurations of LC's you can have, and how they have been manifested and used in this circuit. What are their mathematical relationships, as in what is considered an opposite mathematically, inverses? (^-1)?

If you think of this system (as a whole) as a giant pendulum we can quickly see that all charge "movement" is just an interplay between two conditions. No these conditions are not positive and negative in the traditional sense. A pendulum dropped from a height will have a forward movement, we could call this positive, and it will soon reverse we could call this negative, but we could also look at the potential and kinetic energies at different locations, realize they are opposites and also realize that it is in fact an interplay between these two elements that creates the condition of oscillation. 

also to clarify with the heterodyne issue, when Tesla said "generally there is an oscillation superimposed upon the fundamental vibration of the current." he may have been talking about a condition known today as resonant rise, where  plucks of a string may give rise to resonance, and if timed correctly, the amplitude will start to grow. This may be my own twisted definition, so take from it what you will.

 ;D
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 11, 2008, 05:10:44 PM
@Armagdn03
Quote
"generally there is an oscillation superimposed upon the fundamental vibration of the current."
I read this statement a little differently, I see the fundamental vibration as Einsteins "quanta" that is at the smallest level energy will move in descreet pieces, most likely at the rate of vibration in the matter of the source.The superimposed oscillation is what we would measure as a changing current which we have produced, I cannot help but think that if these two frequencies (fundamental and superimposed) should coincide at super high frequencies or a harmonic thereof that we would see a "resonant rise", as we would be in "tune" with nature. So we agree! ;D
I would also agree that anywhere we see an inductance and capacitance we will have interaction.

I think this statement is very relative to the secondaries of our circuit, fundamentally matter must vibrate at super high frequencies, as well matter is bound by very high electrostatic charges. So if we are to "interact" with matter to produce a resonant rise we must produce resonant conditions, that is currents of high frequency and potential. In this case the Primary/Secondaries could be considered the "other" power source in this circuit, the resonant rise in the secondaries gives the primary a "kick" and this kick helps maintain the current oscillation in the circuit as a whole.
To simplify things I consider the large self-inductance as having the properties of a large flywheel of great mass (inertia) and the secondaries as having the properties of a small flywheel of relatively small inertia but great velocity. In this context we could say a small flywheel at great velocity can have the same energy as a large flywheel at low velocity but the small flywheel will accept rapid accelerations/decelerations more easily---- such as required for a resonant rise condition. Could this be Tesla's means of producing "undampened waves"?  ;D

P.S.--- some of you may have noticed that as inductance is added to L1 the voltage and duration of the oscillations is increased and as the capacitance C is reduced the frequency of oscillation is increased. So it would make sense that we would want to maximize one and minimize the other.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on March 11, 2008, 10:55:33 PM
@ AllCanadian

you wrote

 "P.S.--- some of you may have noticed that as inductance is added to L1 the voltage and duration of the oscillations is increased and as the capacitance C is reduced the frequency of oscillation is increased. So it would make sense that we would want to maximize one and minimize the other."

In patent 568 178

It shows letter E which is a choking coil attached directly to L1 Has a iron bar incert for the center allowing one to change the inductance or vary it .  This may prove useful to implment in 568,177
It should save one from winding different coils for the desired effect, the cap you will have to change too but at least you can test a wide range of inductances with a The same cap and move onto another for comparison. Just a thought.
                                                                                                   Joe
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: barbosi on March 12, 2008, 12:21:52 AM
Good suggestion.
However, beside the variable inductance does anyone notice any other difference between patents? Not a big deal but just for a change and not to fall in love with a stereotype, please notice it is possible also like that. Erfinder said that seems we cannot get passed from charging-discharging a capacitor. My question is not a pointer but just a small variation.

@allcanadian
I was staring at the picture you have posted at http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3972.msg80679.html#msg80679 and if I recall correctly there was at least one of your past pictures including the diode like that.
I have to admit I don't get it. This is what you propose? To me it is counter productive so if you have a point, can you please elaborate?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on March 12, 2008, 12:46:14 AM
@allcanadian

In building this project i  think theres a reason he states to use a motor for L1  other than the syncronos timing / Plucking of the working primary circuit lc circuit. 
The inductance in L1 is the motor coil windings, he also states you can add an additional choking coil to reach your desired result, I still think the device from the next patent is a good idea but maybe the action of the motor and its coils has someting to do with. 
When its up to speed it doesent stop spinning when the current is broke maybe a slight deceleration but neglibale so i guess im just saying it might have something to do with the fundamental vibration of the circuit and when the cap discharges through the primary coil and then to the motor that could be viewed as a superimposed osicalation. Is anyone else using a motor in there primary timing circuit?
                                                                                                                           Joe
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on March 12, 2008, 03:21:32 AM
@Armagdn03
Quote
"generally there is an oscillation superimposed upon the fundamental vibration of the current."
I read this statement a little differently, I see the fundamental vibration as Einsteins "quanta" that is at the smallest level energy will move in descreet pieces, most likely at the rate of vibration in the matter of the source.The superimposed oscillation is what we would measure as a changing current which we have produced, I cannot help but think that if these two frequencies (fundamental and superimposed) should coincide at super high frequencies or a harmonic thereof that we would see a "resonant rise", as we would be in "tune" with nature. So we agree! ;D
I would also agree that anywhere we see an inductance and capacitance we will have interaction.

I think this statement is very relative to the secondaries of our circuit, fundamentally matter must vibrate at super high frequencies, as well matter is bound by very high electrostatic charges. So if we are to "interact" with matter to produce a resonant rise we must produce resonant conditions, that is currents of high frequency and potential. In this case the Primary/Secondaries could be considered the "other" power source in this circuit, the resonant rise in the secondaries gives the primary a "kick" and this kick helps maintain the current oscillation in the circuit as a whole.
To simplify things I consider the large self-inductance as having the properties of a large flywheel of great mass (inertia) and the secondaries as having the properties of a small flywheel of relatively small inertia but great velocity. In this context we could say a small flywheel at great velocity can have the same energy as a large flywheel at low velocity but the small flywheel will accept rapid accelerations/decelerations more easily---- such as required for a resonant rise condition. Could this be Tesla's means of producing "undampened waves"?  ;D

P.S.--- some of you may have noticed that as inductance is added to L1 the voltage and duration of the oscillations is increased and as the capacitance C is reduced the frequency of oscillation is increased. So it would make sense that we would want to maximize one and minimize the other.


Quanata? fundamental frequency? I hope you are yankin my chain as it were! the fundamental vibration is given by the well known equations for determining the ressonant frequency of LC circuits. The imposed frequency is a hamonic provided by the circuit controller affecting the coil of high self inductance. Why are we complicating things again? hmmmm

And.....Tesla states what the device in question on 177 is for, there should be no arguement. Come on now guys.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 12, 2008, 12:03:46 PM
Sorry, going to interrupt here, my spark gap is firing -- lol

There are so many variations upon this LCR theme it?s hard not to consider that there may be unseen and unknown variables still available to play with. What is also nice is the fact that all modern computer power supplies (hint- high voltage components, caps, transformers, etc?), discarded electronic devices have a large assortment of components  ready for experimentation.

I have pretty much read everything that Tesla has written and spoke of, he always seems too mention the three main components together, namely LCR. I have read it, however understanding it is something else ;) Tesla is an ENIGMA in the highest form.

@ allcanadian
I absolutely agree with your statement that ?fundamentally matter must vibrate at super high frequencies; as well matter is bound by very high electrostatic charges.?

Matter is held by atomic forces but wiggles and deforms under pressure, while maintaining stability of some form atomically. Electrostatic charges are purely electrons and ions, non atomic per say (not held as rigidly to the atom, free to exchange). At absolute pressures and temperatures matter breaks down.

As a simple thought experiment, picture induction heating. An open secondary coil that will heat a piece of steel to red or even white hot through induction when inserted. The electrons are moving so rapidly that the atomic structure is starting to feel the strain, in this example both temperature and charge moment (together with eddy currents) create the right conditions for a semi atomic breakdown/meltdown. It can no longer handle holding things together very well. It could be thought that this condition is a resonant condition between the coil and the material being heated. Steel, in this case resists the current and hence gets hot.

As for the undampend waves, I have a funny feeling that he?s referring to the longitudinal wave in motion. The longitudinal wave is a single impulse that has long range. In multitudes (pulses) within a coil, it flows like DC with little resistance or inductive reactance.

@Barbosi --- we cannot get passed from charging-discharging a capacitor
Put interrupter circuit or mechanical interrupter in parallel with the output capacitor, allow cap to charge then discharge after some interval to the load.

@armagdn03 --- I know, I couldn?t help myself?lol

This now ends the spark gap firing sequence.. Thank you for your attention?would someone please up the voltage now!
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on March 12, 2008, 02:15:48 PM
there is not fundamental frequency of matter, period.  As it stands there are multiple "base" particles, off the top of my head, electrons, muons, taos, electron neutrinos, muon neutrinos, tao neutrinos, up quarks, down quarks, top quarks bottom quarks......yadda yadda yadda. You will not find a fundamental frequency, no matter how hard you try, Keely gave up at the "infinite ninths" and he was further than modern physicists!

IF we are talking about Tesla, lets talk about what Tesla said! Yes he used 3 main components, and he gave us precise instructions on how to use them, there is no enigma! How about we back up all conjecture from now on with either experimental evidence or written text from the masters. This stuff just subtracts. Tesla didnt even speak of electrons! He had a unifying theory that included Gravity! He did not agree with Einstein! Einstein died frustrated because he could not solve his own dilemma!
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on March 12, 2008, 02:50:50 PM
Tesla's means for producing undamped waves is "shock" or "impulse" excitation - just like ringing a bell or tuning fork.

This initial impulse for excitation can be produced by the discharge of a condenser or collapse of the magnetic field of an inductor - Tesla preferred the condenser.

An "undamped wave" is just that - a wave that continuous to oscillate rather than dying out quickly.  Tesla was able to induce oscillations that he claimed would last for months or even years.

When Tesla got a good handle on quenching of the initial impulse, he found something very interesting...
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 12, 2008, 05:54:32 PM
@barbosi
My purpose for the diode was to show builders an easy way to measure the voltage rise through an inductive discharge, this is much easier when there are no oscillations as it can be done with a multi-meter on the capacitor. It was not meant to be a permanent fixture in this circuit but could if your purpose was to simply charge a cap to high voltage, one impulse in my setup can charge my cap to 250v from a 12v source.

@armagdn03
I think you may be correct about the fundamental frequency, I took Teslas statement out of the context it was given :D, however we cannot discount matter as matter determines the properties of LRC. I am trying to keep an open mind to "any" possiblities and state these possiblities for all to consider.
Quote
As it stands there are multiple "base" particles, off the top of my head, electrons, muons, taos, electron neutrinos, muon neutrinos, tao neutrinos, up quarks, down quarks, top quarks bottom quarks......yadda yadda yadda
I would disagree with you here, I don't recall Tesla ever mentioning any of these fantasy particles ;D,  Tesla and later even Einstien stated that physics had become a delusion having little resemblance to reality, they and many others believed there were only a few basic components that makeup everything and I would tend to agree with them. Lately I read some articles in "discovery" and other places that changed my opinions about Albert Einstien, later in life he admited he was wrong about most of his "theories" but nobody would listen, he was a good man as his goal is our goal---to understand.
So we agree to disagree, I would not have it any other way.

@Grumpy
Quote
This initial impulse for excitation can be produced by the discharge of a condenser or collapse of the magnetic field of an inductor - Tesla preferred the condenser.
An "undamped wave" is just that - a wave that continuous to oscillate rather than dying out quickly.  Tesla was able to induce oscillations that he claimed would last for months or even years.
That's a good description and to the point, this is something I have been trying to understand for a long time, how can oscillations continue for months? Do you have any insight into how such a thing could be done? I can only imagine the implications if we could do this in Teslas circuit.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on March 12, 2008, 06:18:07 PM
@allcanadian

What did you think of my idea to use the device in the later patent. Is that something you feel would help or clutter your intentions? I dont mean to intrude but im building this along side with my other project and just wanted some real input .  Secondly I'll ask again is anyone else using a dc motor or building one from scratch to match the patent?
                                                                                                    Thanks
                                                                                                                   Joe
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Frederic2k1 on March 12, 2008, 06:27:59 PM
Qoute from Grumpy:

An "undamped wave" is just that - a wave that continuous to oscillate rather than dying out quickly.  Tesla was able to induce oscillations that he claimed would last for months or even years.

I wonder if Tesla is using his famous bifilar coils in LCR ? Do you now the genesis project ? They claim, that a bifilar coil is nothing more than a negative inductance and that this coil is the way to soustain an oscillation in a LRC circuit.

http://www.geocities.com/nayado/

Please ignore my post if this is already known.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on March 12, 2008, 08:58:20 PM
Collaspe of an energy field into a circuit of negligible impedence produces a shockwave or energy that may reach astronomical amplitudes

More later -got to run
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on March 13, 2008, 04:07:14 AM

@armagdn03
I think you may be correct about the fundamental frequency, I took Teslas statement out of the context it was given :D, however we cannot discount matter as matter determines the properties of LRC. I am trying to keep an open mind to "any" possiblities and state these possiblities for all to consider.
Quote
As it stands there are multiple "base" particles, off the top of my head, electrons, muons, taos, electron neutrinos, muon neutrinos, tao neutrinos, up quarks, down quarks, top quarks bottom quarks......yadda yadda yadda
I would disagree with you here, I don't recall Tesla ever mentioning any of these fantasy particles ;D,  Tesla and later even Einstien stated that physics had become a delusion having little resemblance to reality, they and many others believed there were only a few basic components that makeup everything and I would tend to agree with them. Lately I read some articles in "discovery" and other places that changed my opinions about Albert Einstien, later in life he admited he was wrong about most of his "theories" but nobody would listen, he was a good man as his goal is our goal---to understand.
So we agree to disagree, I would not have it any other way.


I don't think ill let you disagree with me on that one, lol...............because we agree! My point was that every year the list of subatomic particles grows, while their sizes diminish, bigger smashers are built, more money is spent, and yet we are no closer to the fundamental unit! It is true, Einstein did indeed say he was wrong, and attempted to rectify the solution but was unable to. Nobody seems to be spending money or time on finding a solution to the problem, rather more money is spent on bullheadedly plowing our way in the wrong direction.

If there were one frequency to the fundamental unit of matter, then all matter would be the same element! see what im saying? you aren't off base with the frequency of matter deal, just don't get stuck on thinking there is just one.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on March 13, 2008, 04:53:50 AM
Tesla's means for producing undamped waves is "shock" or "impulse" excitation - just like ringing a bell or tuning fork.

Close enough.....

Tesla used a similar analogy.  He even mentioned the mass of the coil and the density of the medium as factors effecting the oscillation.


This initial impulse for excitation can be produced by the discharge of a condenser or collapse of the magnetic field of an inductor - Tesla preferred the condenser.

The means and end cannot be separated!  A coil of high self-induction is discharged rapidly for the expressed purpose of charging the condenser.  Once the capacitor is filled, it is short circuited through a coil of low self-induction.  Tesla didn't pick and choose favorites between the collapsing field of an inductor and the discharge of a capacitor.  It should be obvious that in his systems he utilized both!!!

I agree that Tesla utilized both, but the necessary energy for the excitation impulse comes from the discharge of the capacitor.   Perhaps this is a matter of perspective.  Which ever form of energy you begin with, it is converted by the elemnt that recieves the impulse.  Erfinder is correct that you can not separate the two - but you can re-arrange them and this is what I'm pointing out.

An "undamped wave" is just that - a wave that continues to oscillate rather than dying out quickly.  Tesla was able to induce oscillations that he claimed would last for months or even years.

When Tesla got a good handle on quenching of the initial impulse, he found something very interesting...

Please remember that Tesla said that in his circuits, (the ones which had the potential to oscillate for long periods of time), the only resistance the currents in these circuits experienced was ohmic resistance!  Imagine that .0001 Ohms.........is the resistance of his circuit for a given conductor length.......with no other opposition, of course the damn thing is going to ring for extremely long periods of time. 

Please friends, stop making this hard, its too easy.......

Regards

Start with a more simple circuit - like the "disruptive discharge coil' or "electrostatic induction lighting".

If you take this advice, you will all be better for it.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: lancaIV on March 13, 2008, 11:50:38 AM
http://alexfrolov.narod.ru/s-wire.htm

http://v3.espacenet.com/textdoc?DB=EPODOC&IDX=DE3006520&F=0&QPN=DE3006520
go to description and "Translate this text"

~DE19934143,Erich Mehnert
Wikipedia + XYZ : Ferdinand Braun "Hallwachs-Effekt-tum"

Compton : Analyze  the "espacenet-containment"  " Manfred Gregor "


"O-revoar"
              CdL
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on March 13, 2008, 05:13:54 PM
@AC

Thanks for all your explanations and also thanks to the others too. I feel like I just went on a great trip and just returned with Erfinders hint to get back to the basics. I think Erfinder is right though because we can veer off into many lines of observation and it would be best to keep it as simple and as directed to the EC as possible. But that is almost impossible with all these great minds (mine not included). So anyways, I have changed my system back to Erfs build so I can discover more of this with the relay inline.

But just to explain something here, I was sorta stuck on @ACs circuit because to get it to pulse with another relay on another source was presenting to be a problem. If I wanted my relay to work with the absolute control of the on/off motion, I would still require a choke, a cap and another primary to create the whole structure required and just to do this, I had to use all the relay connections to do so leaving none for the switching for @ACs circuit. This means I would need a double-pole-triple-throw relay to have an extra switch just for @ACs circuit. But for now, I want to go back to Erfs build. I think the animation as it stands now seems rather correct and will jump on it again when I have more time.

@Localjoe

I think @AC is using a rotary switch while I and others are using relays. About the rotary switch, we have to understand also that this rotary style although may seem primitive has four points of contact whereas the relay has two. So the impact of switching is spread over four points which would mean it would last much longer then relay contacts. Smart.

@How to choose a good self-inductive component.

I have a question that is more of a "down to Earth question" regarding self-inductance. OK, I'm standing in an EE store in front of a long shelf of new and used transformers, coils, chokes, etc. So what should I be looking for if I wanted to purchase some of these components that offered the maximum self-inductance. This is already a given since I have what I need right now (hopefully),  but let's say I wanted to try some other component types. What values should I be looking for? What values would offer the highest secondary windings? Step up transformers seem to have the best secondaries but they are rare in such EE shops.

@About Teslas one month resonance

Just one question puzzles me about Tesla (well not only one, more like 1000 but) making something oscillate for a month. Erf says .0001 ohms. So, how was Tesla able to observe this effect over 100 years ago. I mean if I had such a circuit going, chances are just the fact that I place a digital meter or a scope probe onto it will kill the effect. So how could he have produced this effect and even worst, observed it to know how long it lasted. It seems to me he would have needed to use some extremely huge coils to be able to withstand any outside probing of the circuit.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on March 13, 2008, 05:43:02 PM
@About Teslas one month resonance

Just one question puzzles me about Tesla (well not only one, more like 1000 but) making something oscillate for a month. Erf says .0001 ohms. So, how was Tesla able to observe this effect over 100 years ago. I mean if I had such a circuit going, chances are just the fact that I place a digital meter or a scope probe onto it will kill the effect. So how could he have produced this effect and even worst, observed it to know how long it lasted. It seems to me he would have needed to use some extremely huge coils to be able to withstand any outside probing of the circuit.

Don't quote me, but I think this circuit was in a vacuum and Tesla had made improvements to a Bolometer that made it something like 1 million times more sensitive - something to do with lowering the mass of the components.  Tesla devised many means to make measurements.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 14, 2008, 04:25:05 AM
Sorry, going to interrupt here, my spark gap is firing again…

@ armagdn03 – I hate to say it, but your so wrong. Your wise in many things but this is not one of them. Each chemical element has it’s own fundamental vibrational frequencies.  Gases show this best when excited with electrical energy at specific frequencies. A spectroscope is a device that lets us find out what things are made of. It works by taking light and splitting it up into its component colors. Different elements make different colors when they glow. There are hundreds of devices like this that find an elements or materials fundamental frequency.  I rest my case.

Term: Undamped;  Not tending toward a state of rest; not damped. Used of oscillations. Amplitude does not change over time. Amplitude does not change over time! DC or static field or electrostatic field if you like.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Ren on March 14, 2008, 07:53:33 AM
Wattsup, I was reading through the pages trying to pick up some more clues when I came across this by Erfinder.

Quote:
The circuit including the motor is of relatively high self-induction, and this property is imparted to it by the coils of the motor, or when these are not sufficient, by the addition of suitable choking-coils...."
End Quote.

This is where the (toroid) transformer comes in.  The secondary of the transformer serves as the choking coil.  This transformer was selected specifically because of the current carrying capability its secondary winding, and its low resistance (mine measures 21.5 ohm).  This coil is a perfect addition to the relay.  Because the current is moving through the motor (resistance of mine measures 141 ohms) of the relay before it enters the choke (secondary) coil, current draw will fluctuates between 0.085 - 0.1 amps.  (Low current draw due to the high resistance of the relay motor coil.) The primary of this transformer is not used.

Did you pick up on this when you first did your tests? I noticed you originally had your primary and secondary around the "wrong" way, but that it gave you good results (in charging the cap anyway).

So how do we configure this if the primary of this transformer is not used? Does the primary of the transformer still serve a path to the small cap as per AC's diagram?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on March 14, 2008, 01:33:39 PM
@Ren

My current build is as shown here;
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3972.msg77661.html#msg77661
The choke I am using is the secondary of one of my two purchased toroids. I have used many transformer secondaries just to see the differences in performance.

Using the primary side as indicate there, I am working now on the second relay side for the working circuit.

AC had wound his own choke using the secondary wire of a microwave transformer. I have one of them but I think I will wind my choke as Erfinder once hinted as a bifilar.

@all

Freaky thing though. Yesterday I posted on this thread;
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3403.msg82396.html#msg82396
something I had noticed because my battery was all the way down below the 8.8 lever required to activate my relay.

I don't know why or what I did but today my battery has one up to now 13.3 volts just by leaving the whole system dormant, all connected but the main pushbutton is off so there is no production on the secondary side. The pushbutton being off disconnects the positive side of the battery but all of the negative side is still connected. The voltage just went up to that point now 13.4. I am so puzzled about this. What the f*&k is going on here?

Added:

I had switched out my microwave transformer for my second toroid transformer that is identical to the one I use as my choke. This transformer was placed on my battery  to use less desk space. I had also switched out my huge capacitor on the working side for a DC 27000uf 40vdc cap connected as per my trial #3 without any relay yet on the system. I also have a wire going from the positive of this capacitor to the positive of battery. Voltage on the battery is 13.4 and voltage off the working capacitor is 7.42 and holding steady. Tonight, I think I will have to document this with a circuit diagram because I think the connection from the positive working cap to the positive battery is causing an internal circuit cycling that I cannot really see.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on March 14, 2008, 05:17:14 PM
Sorry, going to interrupt here, my spark gap is firing again?

@ armagdn03 ? I hate to say it, but your so wrong. Your wise in many things but this is not one of them. Each chemical element has it?s own fundamental vibrational frequencies.  Gases show this best when excited with electrical energy at specific frequencies. A spectroscope is a device that lets us find out what things are made of. It works by taking light and splitting it up into its component colors. Different elements make different colors when they glow. There are hundreds of devices like this that find an elements or materials fundamental frequency.  I rest my case.

Term: Undamped;  Not tending toward a state of rest; not damped. Used of oscillations. Amplitude does not change over time. Amplitude does not change over time! DC or static field or electrostatic field if you like.


Hmmmm, Im glad you are reading closely and questioning, but maybe you should go over something twice before posting.  my exact quote:


If there were one frequency to the fundamental unit of matter, then all matter would be the same element! see what im saying? you aren't off base with the frequency of matter deal, just don't get stuck on thinking there is just one.

My response was directed towards the idea that matter would in and of itself have a fundmeantal frequency. But as you can see from my post above, this would indicate only one element existed. You are quite correct that when excited different elements produce a different spectra of light, this is the technique used in gas chromatography and other forms of chromatography, hence my statement "you aren't off base with the frequency of matter deal, just don't get stuck on thinking there is just one. " The multitude of frequencies each matching to their respective elements is what gives us our rich spectrum of properties.

Another incredibly interesing device is what is known as a Mass Spectrometer, in which a magnetic field is held at 90 degrees to an electric field. Nulei are shot into this field and accelerated due to the impinging forces at a rate of EDcosine theta. the particles are accelerated towards a small opening at the bottom, and the user calibrates the E and B fields so that only nuclei of a certain mass make it through. Once entering the bottom region of the machine, the E field is no longer present and so the particle begins to curve according to the Centripital force law, set equal to the force of a charge in a mag field law giving the equation

radius = (MV/qB)

A detector picks up the radius of the arch, and so we are left with the variables of the Radius, the velocity, the magnetic field strength and the charge of the nuclei solved, thus all we need solve for is the mass of the particle. Through this simple physics we are left with the mass of the particle. What is interesting about this and what should be taken note of, is that a charged particle in a magnetic field will begin to rotate about an invisible axis, the frequency of this rotation is given by the equation 2pi R / velocity (given above). This frequency is not an up down motion like we "see" with our instruments, but rather a circular rotational motion, dictated by the mass of the element, and represented by 2pi R in the equation above (equation for circumference of a circle).

AHHHHH, now thats damn interesting, the mass of the element correlated directly to the frequency of the element, in two totally different machines, (chromatography, and mass spectrometer) and to boot, we are given the "shape" of the frequency and it turns out to be a spiral, all calculated with simple physics terms and equations anybody could manipulate.

What is even more interesting is that the Aurora Borialis and Australius (northern and southern lights) are caused by charged particles entering the earths magnetic  field and beginning a circular rotation of a given frequency outlined above. What is interesting to note here is that the particle is accelerated. Its speed does not change, but its velocity does (remember that velocity is a vector quantity including both magnitude and direction) hence a direction change (as in a rotation) equates to an acceleration. This acceleration gives off energy, exciting the gases in the upper atmosphere, mostly being nitrogen, bit of argon, oxygen and hydrogen. These give us our pretty colors! Here we have chromatography in nature, also those reading should take note that a charged particle in a magnetic field accelerates, though its speed does not change, and it will do so forever if left to its own devices, continually giving off energy...............hmmmmm did modern science just admit to a free energy mechanism found dancing in our skies? Perhaps admit was too strong a word. LOL.

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 14, 2008, 05:38:19 PM
@ All
I agree let's get back to the basics ;D
Here is an experiment you may like, In Fig 1 our Pri/Sec is replaced with a small 12v Permanent Magnet  DC motor (M), the cap is 4700uF. In this case the motor(M) has a one inch pointer attached to it's shaft to indicate the current direction (spin direction) and duration of current flow (time), the motor is a measurement device. When the circuit controller is open the cap initially charges through L1 and M , M will turn clockwise 180 Degrees, when the circuit controller closes M will reverse direction and turn 180 Degrees counter-clockwise. In this experiment we can see M and C act as a distinct circuit, the charging of L1 occurs through the circuit controller and the discharging of the cap--- two currents. There are no prolonged oscillations in this circuit due to the fact that the capacitor C never charges above source voltage but as soon as a smaller cap is used the oscillations will resume.
What becomes very apparent in this circuit is that the "same" current has travelled through (M) twice, once when the controller was open(Fig 2) and again when the controller closed(Fig 1) and that the current flow in (M) is AC. If we look at the current flow we can also see that the electrical momentum (discharge current) of L1 is acting in the same direction as the source battery when "C" is charging. In general we can say the circuit components are always complementing each others actions making for a very efficient circuit. As well if the motor (M) is replaced with a commutated AC motor the motor will turn in one direction only as it is an AC motor.
Best of luck
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: am1ll3r on March 14, 2008, 09:59:04 PM
Just wanted to post a quick pic of the circuit controller I made...
Its a motor out of an old HO train and a nut. Its not the greatest but it does work.
My set up is exactly  as the ozone patent and I have come to notice some things.
In the "working" circuit I have tried various caps to cancel the self inductance of the secondary of the transformer and I'm seeing  how the "load" effects the "charging" circuit. My motor will spin fast and then slow down as the cap in the working circuit fills up. Again I know my parts aren't tuned but I am able to vary the speed of the motor (using my finger to slow it down) and I can see by adjusting that one piece of the circuit I see major changes in the working circuit. For instance when I use my 1.1 mF cap from and old microwave and I'm not slowing down the motor the cap will charge up to 90 to 100 V but when I slow down the motor(tune it) I can raise the Voltage up to 300 to 350.
What I'm wondering is when trying to make something useful out of this do you first consider the load then build the rest of the circuit to match it?
Oh and and as wattsup has stated my battery has held the same charge over many days of testing. :D
I still want to dissect the ozone circuit and show it in some sort of animated gif and have an explanation of what happening at all points in one cycle of the circuit.

my $.02 for now  ;D

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/am1ll3r/TeslaOzone/photo#5177689889341068114"><img src="http://lh6.google.com/am1ll3r/R9rZhZNOU1I/AAAAAAAAAD4/nf5mi1OaZSY/s400/DSC05424.JPG" /></a>


Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on March 15, 2008, 03:00:26 AM
@AC

I tried it. The circuit does exactly what you said it would. lol

I didn't have a 4700uf. With a 2700uf it turned about 1/8th when closed and came back when opened. Tried with a 17,000uf and it turned about 1 1/2 turns when closed and came back when opened. These were DC caps.

I tried with a regular AC type cap that has the ground band on the side and it just heated up hot. The DC caps did not heat up and the L1 also stayed cold even when the circuit switch was left open for a long time.

So this is proof positive that the current is flowing in two directions.

And THIS ALSO COULD EXPLAIN WHY I  have had so much trouble with the ozone patent, trying to figure out which terminal A or B was positive and which was negative. Erfinder said the A was positive but between you and me, that did not help one bit. I was still confused. So, the motor coil is being supplied DC and one would naturally follow this path all around the circuit, but in fact, the motor side (high inductance) of the rotary was DC and the primary/secondary/capacitor side of the rotary was AC. IS THIS RIGHT?

Man oh man, if this is right, now I get it. Tesla, you sly devil you. lol
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 15, 2008, 04:58:27 AM

@allcanadian.. very nice. It worked first go. Motor spins half to full turn or so and then on release turns in reverse. the larger the cap the more the spin. are you saying that this is what is occurring in the ozone circuit as well? and in fact that current is reversing direction during cycles, this would make sense considering what i have just seen. but how does this then effect the circuit or more to the point the secondary coil? (from a standard)... Thanks.

@ armagdn03 Excellent, gotta keep you on your toes once in awhile. LOL, I study as well. I was so hoping that you would pick up on "the mass of the element correlated directly to the frequency of the element", thank you.

We now return to our regularly scheduled spark gap experiments. Power on!

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on March 15, 2008, 05:30:30 AM
Collaspe of an energy field into a circuit of negligible impedence produces a shockwave or energy that may reach astronomical amplitudes

More later -got to run

You bring an excellent point. Grumpy

How about this analogy

I pluck a guitar string that is not tightened or in tune say just kinda loose on the neck. The string moves when i touch it and thats it.

Now i tune the string up just by tightening it and then i pluck it.  This wonderful note comes out that i have tuned my string to and it resonates for a while until it dies out . 

How to tighten our string in the circuit is the real question and to what measure?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 15, 2008, 05:44:07 AM
@wattsup
Quote
So this is proof positive that the current is flowing in two directions.
Yes, in this instance the circuit controller is the dividing line in the circuit, the large self-inductance and the source battery(DC)----- and the motor(M) and capacitor(AC).I should have mentioned that I was using a polarized 4700uF DC capacitor .

Quote
So, the motor coil is being supplied DC and one would naturally follow this path all around the circuit, but in fact, the motor side (high inductance) of the rotary was DC and the primary/secondary/capacitor side of the rotary was AC. IS THIS RIGHT?
Yes, in this circuit I posted you are correct----- But this is not teslas circuit nor does it have some very important quailties present in teslas circuit---  series oscillations .I only meant to show that (1)a DC PM motor can be used as a measurement tool (2)that this circuit can act as two independant circuits---- hold the circuit controller closed and you will see the motor(M) turn until the cap is fully discharged and will not recharge as it is shorted through the circuit controller, one side of the circuit is discharging as the other side is charged then they reverse roles.(3) that the large self-inductance L1 has a unidirectional flow DC, L1 may change polarity but the current flow is in one direction.

The most important properties of this circuit I posted will propably be overlooked so I will help, In Fig 2 the capacitor AND the motor (M) have current flow, in Fig 1 the cap is discharged through the motor (M)------- the current has done work in the motor (M) when charging the cap AND when discharging the cap---- the same current performed work in motor (M) twice--"two times" not just once ----How is this different from what we normally do? ;). Also in Fig 2 when L1 is discharging it is also helping to "charge" the capacitor with the source battery.
This is not Teslas circuit, it is to demonstate certain properties present in teslas patent. ;)


Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on March 15, 2008, 06:02:51 AM
Collaspe of an energy field into a circuit of negligible impedence produces a shockwave or energy that may reach astronomical amplitudes

More later -got to run

You bring an excellent point. Grumpy

How about this analogy

I pluck a guitar string that is not tightened or in tune say just kinda loose on the neck. The string moves when i touch it and thats it.

Now i tune the string up just by tightening it and then i pluck it.  This wonderful note comes out that i have tuned my string to and it resonates for a while until it dies out . 

How to tighten our string in the circuit is the real question and to what measure?

I offer the following information

frequency of oscillation on a string = (1/2L)(T/u)^(1/2) 

Where L is length, T is the tension in newtons, and u is the linear mass. Therefore we can see that as the tension of the string increases, so does the frequency of oscillation.

Now, knowing that vibratory systems are essentially correlated, what variables can we change in order to increase the frequency of oscillation for an LC circuit? And how do we measure these variables?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on March 15, 2008, 06:20:17 AM
@wattsup

About the 4(8including insulating pie strips) points my solution was a small wooden disk with copper strips on it, if you criss cross em you can fit enough for 8(16)  or 16(32) contact points, kinda like an asterix they have to be multiples tho for the proportion to hold  :) 

That will effect the rate at which the cap dumps through L2 the Primary (low inductance few turn) in the working circuit and then through L1(high inductance) the motor coils.  I strongly feel a second coil should be added between the exit of the motor coil and the rotary gap disk to vary the inductance of the motor. This is shown in pat 568,178 .

 Without this addition there will be no variable control for the motors speed and changing the inductance of the circuit.  I assume one would like to be able to control the freq of the ac output on the secondary thats why i keep making this point.

The ozone patent is the guts to many of his devices and some of the later devices for high freq hv  show additions to this circuit real cool ones. for instance He modifies the timing and working circuits in this pic of pat 568179  What the new tiwst here is that the two choking coils on the side are hooked to either side of the commutator in the motor as well as separate caps that seem to be in parallel. Same motor from 568177. The commutator wasn't used for timing purposes in the ozone patent yet it is here. As well as a rotary disk for timing.


Note to all ... The motor seems to be a crucial part. I think we should all replicate the exact dc edit: or commutated ac motor or as close as possible because it will be a great help in the later patents .. its a core component that is used in more ways than one could think.  Its not like we can easily rip apart a hobby motor to get to the commutator it would ruin it if not made with those things in mind.
                                                                                                                          Joe
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 15, 2008, 06:38:46 AM
@localjoe
Quote
That will effect the rate at which the cap dumps through L2 the Primary (low inductance few turn) in the working circuit and then through L1(high inductance) the motor coils.  I strongly feel a second coil should be added between the exit of the motor coil and the rotary gap disk to vary the inductance of the motor. This is shown in pat 568,178 .
Yes I agree, if you follow teslas patents he is making improvements on 568177. I use a 12v/120v transformer with the sides cut off to form an inductor (choke), then the sides can be moved to and from the inductor with brass screws to vary inductance quite accurately. I also use an AC commutated motor for L1 from a shop vac, it is rated at 12amps @ 120v. We should remember these AC commutated motors amp rating is based on the motor coils resistance, more resistance equals lower amp draw, so I wanted a high amp/low resistance motor which has its power varied through impulse duration/frequency not resistance---- resistance is bad.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on March 15, 2008, 07:41:07 AM
@AC
good web link here for folks http://www.tpub.com/neets/book9/34a.htm (http://www.tpub.com/neets/book9/34a.htm)
Just some basic ee stuff page 2 has a section on resonance and the curves showing the intersecting points of the inductive reactance and the capacitive reactance... There opposites yet when balance is achieved so is resonance. 8)
                                                                                             Joe
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 15, 2008, 07:57:26 AM
I see two sets of motor contacts, b-b and H-H. which is for the motor and what is the other set for? Does anyone have estimated values for the capacitors and inductors? time to experiment...
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 15, 2008, 08:32:16 AM
and an extra set in the front for switching too ..

For simplicity, can I use a standard small dc motor with an extended insulated shaft and on this shaft put the necessary contacts on it and on the shaft.

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on March 15, 2008, 06:25:35 PM
@quantum1024

I just posted that as refrence for folks so they could see the progression from 568177-->588178-->568179  helps when there in order and you can see the additions to the circuit.

I think you may want to look at exactly what is happening with the disk(rotary attachment with segmetnd pie insulation)in patent 568177. This has to be EXACT!!!   EG 0 and 180, 270 and 90  conductive strips have to be split into equal quadrants,  to start two conductive strips and two insulating sections will make for 2 on off cycles per rotation of the disk.


Here are the two things i see happening


1) The brushes  G on the left and K on the right complete the "Working primary circuit" every time the two brushes hit a "Conductive Strip on the disk". 

 
--This dumps the cap through the primary (L2) while at the same time short circuiting the motor. This "break" for the motor while the cap is dumping is what allows the current of high electromotive force is devolped for charging the capicator.

 2) Now the disk at the top has brushes G and K on the "Insulating sections" not shorted and the current of high electromotive force waiting in the motor coils can be discharged and accepted by the capacitor in the Working circuit.

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on March 15, 2008, 06:37:22 PM
Collaspe of an energy field into a circuit of negligible impedence produces a shockwave or energy that may reach astronomical amplitudes

More later -got to run

You bring an excellent point. Grumpy

How about this analogy

I pluck a guitar string that is not tightened or in tune say just kinda loose on the neck. The string moves when i touch it and thats it.

Now i tune the string up just by tightening it and then i pluck it.  This wonderful note comes out that i have tuned my string to and it resonates for a while until it dies out . 

How to tighten our string in the circuit is the real question and to what measure?

I offer the following information

frequency of oscillation on a string = (1/2L)(T/u)^(1/2) 

Where L is length, T is the tension in newtons, and u is the linear mass. Therefore we can see that as the tension of the string increases, so does the frequency of oscillation.

Now, knowing that vibratory systems are essentially correlated, what variables can we change in order to increase the frequency of oscillation for an LC circuit? And how do we measure these variables?

@armagdn03

Thanks i knew someone would get it. 

Well lets take tension to start  In an lc circuit  Voltage is proportional to tension i would say. (could be wrong )

Ok this  would seem to apply then, thanks!
 So Raise the static dc voltage to tighten up the string . Then Pluck it with the cap  ;D  Also if that holds true the tension is divided by the mass of the wire
therefore Raise the tension and lower the mass to get a good result.. a 1 pound guitar string would be a bitch to tighten and pluck for that matter but one of a few grams should be much easier to tighten.
                                                                                                            Joe


Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on March 15, 2008, 06:56:22 PM
@all

OK I removed my post because I finally found out what was happening and I am ashamed to say it, but you know, when you are open with everyone you are bound to make mistakes.

The problem was my meter battery was so damn low that it started playing tricks on me. I just changed the battery and the system battery now reads a steady 11.8 volts, which is better then were it was yesterday morning at 8.4, but not the 16 vdc I was reading an hour ago.

Geez, just junk it.

Now back to the EC.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on March 15, 2008, 08:57:50 PM
Collaspe of an energy field into a circuit of negligible impedence produces a shockwave or energy that may reach astronomical amplitudes

More later -got to run

You bring an excellent point. Grumpy

How about this analogy

I pluck a guitar string that is not tightened or in tune say just kinda loose on the neck. The string moves when i touch it and thats it.

Now i tune the string up just by tightening it and then i pluck it.  This wonderful note comes out that i have tuned my string to and it resonates for a while until it dies out . 

How to tighten our string in the circuit is the real question and to what measure?

I offer the following information

frequency of oscillation on a string = (1/2L)(T/u)^(1/2) 

Where L is length, T is the tension in newtons, and u is the linear mass. Therefore we can see that as the tension of the string increases, so does the frequency of oscillation.

Now, knowing that vibratory systems are essentially correlated, what variables can we change in order to increase the frequency of oscillation for an LC circuit? And how do we measure these variables?

@armagdn03

Thanks i knew someone would get it. 

Well lets take tension to start  In an lc circuit  Voltage is proportional to tension i would say. (could be wrong )

Ok this  would seem to apply then, thanks!
 So Raise the static dc voltage to tighten up the string . Then Pluck it with the cap  ;D  Also if that holds true the tension is divided by the mass of the wire
therefore Raise the tension and lower the mass to get a good result.. a 1 pound guitar string would be a bitch to tighten and pluck for that matter but one of a few grams should be much easier to tighten.
                                                                                                            Joe




Good observation, tension and voltage are analogous, however you will find that increasing voltage has no effect on the frequency at which an LC oscillates. keep up the good work!
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on March 15, 2008, 10:18:18 PM
@armagdn03

Yes yes i know that raising the voltage wont affect the freq of the lc in the working circuit. Directly...  :)

But

Some motors run much faster at 50 volts than say 12.

Now  in pat 568177  if you raise your initial dc voltage not only are are we tightening the string in both the timing and working primary circuits but we are also making the motor spin faster. This Will effect the freq of the working circuit directly because the motor is spinning the disk which preforms the make and breaks faster, hence increase in freq/plucking of the string(process of cap discharging into circuit of low self induction/primary coil) .Also raising the freq of the working circuit could be acomplished by makings more cuts in the pie so to say the disk and the insulating sections.

Without the motor spinning the rotary gap -the relay way some are doing here can only be adjusted by the value of the cap and the inductance of the primary coil

                                                                                               Thanks for your input

                                                                                                                      Joe
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 15, 2008, 10:39:57 PM
I sat staring at this circuit for a few hours, it?s a brilliant circuit. Thank you for sharing!

If I am correct.
The choke and capacitor charges up and is disruptively discharged, (via the relay) into the primary coil of the transformer, (large current/voltage short duration into coil). The voltage is from what it was (the battery voltage) to a higher potential. On the secondary, down convert it, charge a capacitor/filter to higher then the impedance of the battery voltage. Battery now charges.  As long as the battery is charging at a higher voltage then what it was, it should maintain it?s self for a long long time. It?s basically like a self healing battery. It?s recycling while sitting at higher potentials. Nice!  ;D

Any time a battery sits at higher potentials (above the impedance of the battery) it is considered charging.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on March 15, 2008, 11:37:40 PM
@armagdn03

Yes yes i know that raising the voltage wont affect the freq of the lc in the working circuit. Directly...  :)

But

Some motors run much faster at 50 volts than say 12.

Now  in pat 568177  if you raise your initial dc voltage not only are are we tightening the string in both the timing and working primary circuits but we are also making the motor spin faster. This Will effect the freq of the working circuit directly because the motor is spinning the disk which preforms the make and breaks faster, hence increase in freq/plucking of the string(process of cap discharging into circuit of low self induction/primary coil) .Also raising the freq of the working circuit could be acomplished by makings more cuts in the pie so to say the disk and the insulating sections.



Without the motor spinning the rotary gap -the relay way some are doing here can only be adjusted by the value of the cap and the inductance of the primary coil

                                                                                               Thanks for your input

                                                                                                                      Joe


Motors spin faster at higher voltage, because current is induced by the electromotive force (voltage) hence raising the voltage raises the current flow through the motor, according to our power equation, Power = Current x voltage, an increase yields more wattage through the windings. an increase in either electromotive force or current will do this. (an increase in current without an increase in voltage is possible through a lowering of the resistance of the wire used)

Your analogy is good, but you applied the logic to the wrong part of the circuit. your string is your LC primary and cap, it is being plucked by the high inductance via circuit controller, if you spin the motor faster, you are essentially plucking your string with your finger faster, you are not tightening the string.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on March 16, 2008, 12:06:53 AM
@armagdn03
I see what you  saying now "your string is your LC primary and cap" I was considering my string just L2 or the primary coil. 

Also-
 "it is being plucked by the high inductance via circuit controller, if you spin the motor faster, you are essentially plucking your string with your finger faster, you are not tightening the string."

The reason i said to raise the voltage was because it would increase the speed of the motor as well as tighten the strings on the circuit its attached to already.  I figured hey two birds one stone.

Id say there are two discharge paths for current in this circuit that flip floped back and forth.

I see the way your saying now thats the charge cycle and the current goes through the motor coils into L2   and charges the cap.

Yet when the cap discharges, the current goes from the cap - back down L2 .   I don't know if this is right or wrong but it was the best sense i could make of it.
                                                                                                                        Joe
                           
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 16, 2008, 12:49:11 AM
@localjoe
We should also remember that if you use an AC motor for L1 with a commutator disk that this device is self-regulating. As speed increases duty cycle or on time is lowered(speed decreases)---- as speed decreases the on time per segment is increased(speed increases). So L1 will always find its own optimum speed(frequency) depending on the current flow through it, the current flow depends on the load.We could say this circuit will vary its own frequency to match any load attached to it thus always operates at maximum efficiency.If we examine current AC systems we see loading or phase lead/lag will always load the generator which is fighting to correct this phase imbalance because it always operates at a fixed frequency. As well current AC variable frequency drives (VFD's) do not phase match which is just plain silly. I think it is just as important to understand how terribly inefficient our conventional electrical systems are in order to understand what needs to be done to correct them. How exactly does an AC motor load an AC generator? If you can answer this question then you can understand how tesla rectified this situation of loading the "generator" or the source and have the source add energy intermitently to a system which is in resonant oscillation with a load.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 16, 2008, 06:24:35 AM
I think this might work... any suggestions?
I'm still stuck in the timing of this thing, i'm not sure at what the degree settings everything is supposed to be at.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on March 16, 2008, 03:51:25 PM
the problem with what you have, is that your duty cycle is going to be a bit off, if you have an un-even ammount of copper space to non copper space, than the on cycle will be shorter than the off cycle, you want them to be rougly equal.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 16, 2008, 07:02:02 PM

@ armagdn03
 Ahhh, THANK YOU! I think i get it. the charge discharge cycling time.

P.S. Sorry about the other recent posts, I apologize. I did not read deep enough into what you where saying till later. your very knowledgeable and i thank you for sharing it.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on March 16, 2008, 08:56:37 PM
no problem! no need to apologize either! if you didn't question the "rules" you probably wouldn't be here, no need to follow like sheep, lol  ;D
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Maximumgravity1 on March 16, 2008, 09:13:45 PM
So, I am going to veer off topic a bit, and get back to the Ozone patent and Erfinders list of parts.  Sorry to disrupt, as I think some of the info being exchanged is interesting.

In looking at 568,177 there are three basic elements - a source of high self inductance (the motor windings - 568,177 Lines 90-98), a capacitor that must be discharged to create oscillation (568,177 Lines 32-40), and an inductive coil to step up potential and provide the "working" circuit its source (568,177 pg2 Lines3-6).

I do not have all the same parts as Erfinder recommended, but I think I have the basic idea.  I have a SPDT relay, a 47uf cap, and two 4700uf caps wired in parallel.  For my choke coil, I am using my Cook Battery coils primaries (the small wires) wired in series with each other.  My Cook coils are over 3 feet long, with over 1700-2200 turns of #28 magnet wire.  So 3400-4800 turns of wire.

In short, what I see is that we went to all the trouble to build some high self-inductance with the relay coil, and the choke coil.  Somehow we need to use that.  The way I did this was to run my positive battery lead through my Cook battery Primaries, then jump into the power side of the relay coil (sorry I don't know the terminology of relays).  A short jumper lead from the relay power coil "out"side to the "switched" side common post.  From the common I jumped off to one side of the 47uf cap.  I ran the other side of the cap through a #10 wire that I stripped the insulation off of, and ran it through the center of a #18 or so solid copper wire coil that I wrapped around a screw driver for 2 dozen or so turns.  Then connected to the "Normally Open" side of my relay.

Off of my secondary (N in the patent) I connected my parallel 4700uf caps.  I haven't installed my push button yet, as I have just been jumping my batteries directly to the relay terminals.  BTW, my batteries are two series connected 6V "lantern" batteries.

Two points of interest, when I touch my battery lead to my "NC" post on my relay, I get a high pitched hum/buzz.  Not what I expected.  Almost sounds like a little speaker or horn.  What is interesting, if I connect the second half of my 47uf cap/coil to the "NC" side(instead of the "NO" side, I get very distinct hammering of the switch - more of what I expected.  It is much slower - several RPM per second, and much more pronounced, but this is the equivalent of moving the entire 568177 patent to one side of the circuit controller and having everything in series.  The interesting note, is you can see that the higher resistance makes a difference in relay operation.

The really interesting point, in connecting my multimeter to the outputs of my 24 turn coil "N" - across my 4700uf caps - I have gotten some AMAZING voltage readings.  I have seen a steady 9.0V AC (yes AC - Tesla said "oscillations" so I switched to the AC side when I was getting minimal DC readings), and had a hard time duplicating it when I tried to add another cap to run an accidentally purchased AC Relay.  Later, I got over 450V AC, and watched it slowly bleed down by fluctuation over a 30 second period to around 30V AC.  In trying to duplicate these sporadic attempts, I am finding I get pretty consistent big spikes if I short my battery lead to one of the other leads on the relay.  If I put my battery lead down between the "NO" and "NC" posts, I see the most consistent fluctuations, but can't keep it steady )I am thinking the discharges are out of time/sporadic).

What I am guessing is one of two things:
1.)  I am not getting a full/consistent discharge from my 47uf cap.  Even in looking at the 568,177 patent, I see the cap can only discharge when the control circuit is "closed"
2.)  When the relay switches to "NO" I am running the full inductive load plus the battery charge to one side of the 47uf cap - which I feel is correct in looking at the patent.  Again tied to the same problem above, I wonder if the relay is not making a full "open" contact, since i am getting this weird high-pitch hum.  Maybe if I increased my resistance/self inductance on the "NO" leg going to the cap, it would help open that switch fully..I just don't know.  I don't know enough about these things to understand what that relay noise is signifying.

I am thinking that by shorting between the "NO" and "NC" terminals, I am getting what I am supposed to be after.  I am just not sure why I am seeing it only when shorted.  Of course, the biggest rise - always - is when I remove the battery lead.  This also tells me I don't have something quite right, as I am not getting the "collapse" I should be.

Any thoughts???
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Maximumgravity1 on March 16, 2008, 10:12:45 PM
Replying to myself...but I got it....

I am getting a consistent flux of 150VAC to 640VAC

I took my relay as set up to begin with, but dropped my cap leg off.  So all my inductive load is running into my powered side, coming back out and right into my common.  From my "NC" side, I am running to a second relay "power in".  From my "Power out" I am running to one leg of my 47uf cap.  On the other leg of the cap, I run into my M/N inductive coil, then directly into the common side of my second relay.  From the "NC" post of my second relay, I run to my "NC" post of my first relay.  SO ironically the "NC" side of my first relay is powering my second, and also where the 47uf cap is dumping/discharging.

In retyping this, I am not sure the second relay is necessary as I have it wired.

I am still playing with a few things, but I am still getting varying results.  Now I am ranging from about 12V AC to about 250V AC.  I can definitely HEAR when I am getting more voltage - it sounds "strained".  I have seen a surge as high as 680v AC on one of these "strains".  More later....

EDIT:
On continued testing, I am getting readings on HV DC as well.  It is still sporadic and tends to fluctuate, so I think something still isn't quite right.  But I am seeing voltages from 12-350.  It goes through a little adjustment period, then starts really screaming, and straining, and will spike as high as 450+, then settles down a bit, and will bleed back down to around 30-50.  It will continue to discharge slowly to around 12, then head back up to about 30-50, start straining and squealing, and over 250 again.  It seems to want to "bleed down" when left runing for a few minutes and settle into the 12-50 range with sporadic surges...strange.

EDIT 2:
Maybe I just can't read a multimeter.  Maybe it is because the energy is pulsed and/or radiant - but if I switch the meter between 500HV, 200VDC and 20VDC, all that happens is my decimal place moves to the left for each setting.  Anyway, still getting some interesting results.  I rthink part of my inconsistency is bad connections due to aligator clips and small components.  I have been hesitant to solder until I got something working.  I am getting close enough, a few minor resolders might not be so bad.  So far checking the voltage across the 47uF cap has had the highest numbers.  I can't get too concerned, as this is a hodgepodge of components of various resistances, so it seems the concept is working.  I have been able to remove my second relay again, and had similar results.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 16, 2008, 11:22:51 PM
Sorry for the interrupt.  just posting my thoughts on this control disk problem. this is 50/50 duty cycle.. i'm also thinking that more brushes can be placed around the 2 disks for more contacts if I need them, this also allows for setting the degrees of when events happen. rather then just 90 and 180, now it would be selectable.  i'm also debating on the motor to use, does it matter if it's AC or DC if i have control disks?
Thanks.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 17, 2008, 03:17:31 AM
@quantum1024
I use a circuit contoller like this only mine uses eight segments instead of the four shown here. As well the duty cycle should be 50/50 on/off, to do this calculate the circumference then divide by 16. You can see that one brush is near the disk center, I do this to reduce wear on the brush as the closer you get to the disk center the lower the surface speed of the brush so it lasts longer.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 17, 2008, 03:42:37 AM
@ allcanadian -THANK YOU for that info. the next one i'll calculate as you suggested and consider the brush placement, I was thinking about it and the speed on the inside vs the outside.

heres what i just built over the last few hours. a drive shaft and pully from a vcr, a small dc motor from vcr, a copper clad board which i cut and then rounded and then used a rotto tool to grind off the copper i did'nt want. I then put a small copper ring (soldered) around for conduction between the two segments of copper. Now i just have to glue the boards to the shaft. then i can start on the rest of the circuits.

What kind of brushs are you using, I was just going to make something up that would work. thanks!
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 17, 2008, 08:25:15 AM
So here's a schematic of my switcher-controller. not shown is the brushes touching the control disks. almost everything came form vcr's and my wood pile. :-)
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on March 17, 2008, 01:50:58 PM
@Maximum

Just yesterday I was looking at my cook coils (I have 3 sets of much smaller ones) and wondering to use the primary (always said backwards lol), which is the secondary these days.

I am having a hard time following your connections but from what I have understood, you are first going through your cook coil, then to the relay coil. You may try going through the relay coil first.

In the patent, the motor coil equals the relay coil and Tesla says a choke coil can be "added" to increase self-inductance but I do not think he says expressly if it is before or after the motor coil, but one would presume he meant after the motor coil.

Also, I may be wrong but if you had a diode on the secondary working side, the voltage would then show as DC because it is acting like a bridge rectifier. I am sure @AC would know more.

If you can, please make a circuit diagram and post it so we know exactly what you are doing and therefore could comment more precisely.

@quantum1

Good work.
I hope you are going to put all those vcr parts back when you're finished. lol
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Maximumgravity1 on March 17, 2008, 02:44:39 PM
@Wattsup

After playing around a bit more last night, I found I can get a HV DC reading using only one lead of my multimeter (??? weird...), and possibly explains some of my sporadic readings yesterday, and possibly explains why switching the meter only resulted in a moving of the decimal place (i.e. 361 became 36.1 then 3.61 in going from 500 HV setting to 20vDC).  In diagramming out my circuit, I realized that I am not seeing where the 47uf cap is closing both halves of the cap and discharging.  It is interesting to note, in the diagram labeled "Maximumgravity's Layout 2" below, I could jump my battery lead to "NO" and it would only pulse the relay for a few seconds, then quit.  Obviously, that half of the cap was "full".  So it appears in doing all these experiments, that I am managing to get cap bleed down of some sort, but not really a discharge.  This also explains the "surging" when the relay really starts to squeal...

Layout 3 seems to be the most correct to me, and it wasn't until I had started making changes that I discovered I could get a reading off of one lead, so when I get home from work tonight, I will play around a bit more with that layout (and obviously put the high inductance load into the coil instead of the cap) and see what I can find out.  However, setup 2 seemed to provide the best results - seems odd, but might make sense in that both halves of the cap are getting fully charged by pulse, but not an adequate discharge.

EDIT
As mentioned before, the two relay setup seemed abit of overkill, and didn't seem to be doing anything that the one relay couldnt.  Diagram's 1 and 4 are variations of the same thing, but sometimes i have to see something drawn out before I can visualize it.

EDIT2
I just had a thought, in looking at circuit 3, if I put the cap and coil leads on the "NO" post, and the battery lead only on "NC" that should give what I am looking for.  I am sure I tried this yesterday a few times, but will look into it again tonight.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on March 17, 2008, 07:49:40 PM
@Maximumgravity1

Sorry I did not recognize you and called you Maximum. I remember we had PM'd several times regarding your big Cook Coil. So I gather you managed to work out the problem of a short in the coils.  I was also thinking of using my AluCookCoil (since the Primary could be removed easilly leaving only a nice secondary coil for a choke) with this set-up but was mostly afraid that the wire would be too fine. What the heck. I'll try it.

Nice drawings.

I think the coil of your relay should be first, because as you are showing, if your Cook Coil discharges, it will go the the relay coil.
You might want to try the circuit diagram shown here;
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3972.msg77661.html#msg77661

Also, get yourself a DPDT relay. Actually two if you want to continue on with the EC as this is what had been prescribed. You will also require a diode.

Lastly, your transformer with only one primary wire seems, well the only word I have is "weird". I don't know if it will be able to transfer as well as a standard transformer coil, but hey, live and learn.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 18, 2008, 05:23:58 AM
Egor, throw the third switch… It’s Alive, Alive!

The controller turns on with a nice dc motor hum, and then the circuit kicks in and orange/yellow sparks start shooting everywhere. Very neat and cool to look at in a dark room. just ran a couple of single tests rapidly and everything checks out A.ok. I believe I've have solved the brush problem, now i can install any type of brush and adjust angles. I really enjoyed this fast build. now i can start testing Tesla circuits they way they where designed. I hope others follow and build it and better versions, it's more versatile and more dependable then using relays, and more fun watching it.

P.S. those are wire clips holding copper solder wick! and, 14 gauge copper house wire.

Have Fun!!!
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: M@rcel on March 18, 2008, 10:29:12 AM
Having a reputation of being off-topic, I'll try again:  ;)

This picture was uploaded to the EVGRAY (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/EVGRAY) yahoo group today. It seems to fit in with the work being done here.

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 18, 2008, 04:49:23 PM
@marcel
I would make a small change to your circuit, in the red circle the diode has been replaced with a capacitor. The diode in the circuit you posted would basically kill any resonant rise effect, in teslas circuit we use the inertia of a large self-inductance to set a series circuit including the source battery in oscillation. Notice that when the capacitor in the red circle is charged/discharged it is in series with the source battery, this is the series circuit in oscillation.The relay circuits would basically "kick" the series circuit to maintain the series oscilations. As well in the relay circuits there are no components to recover the electrical inertia effects of either the relay coils nor the primary coils. Personally I prefer inductors or choking coils over transformers, I think they are much more efficient.
Nice circuit though :)
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: M@rcel on March 18, 2008, 07:28:55 PM
@marcel
I would make a small change to your circuit, in the red circle the diode has been replaced with a capacitor. The diode in the circuit you posted would basically kill any resonant rise effect, in teslas circuit we use the inertia of a large self-inductance to set a series circuit including the source battery in oscillation. Notice that when the capacitor in the red circle is charged/discharged it is in series with the source battery, this is the series circuit in oscillation.The relay circuits would basically "kick" the series circuit to maintain the series oscilations. As well in the relay circuits there are no components to recover the electrical inertia effects of either the relay coils nor the primary coils. Personally I prefer inductors or choking coils over transformers, I think they are much more efficient.
Nice circuit though :)
Just to keep things straight, the picture was uploaded to the EVGRAY group by goodreau1. It's not mine.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on March 19, 2008, 02:36:24 AM
@Guys

Well it seems Erfinder just split from the board and he says its for good.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4299.msg83602.html#msg83602

He had put up a real great photo of a system (I think Hendershot) showing two dual high inductance coils going to two toroid type coils, two sets of caps. Shit, I should have saved the image. Now it's gone and so is he.

Man, I am so tired of people just taking off and for what? I can't figure out why.

I wonder if Tesla had "taken off" every time someone rubbed him the wrong way, were would we be today. The irony of this is that on that same thread I had said Erfinder was right. Tesla is the way. But I guess to teach Tesla and survive, one has to be very well grounded to not get overshot by all the human flyback.

This is getting to be a sad day indeed.

Added:

For what it's worth, my EC project is going great. My second relay is now clicking and clicking. Now to optimize and use it. hehe
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: nightlife on March 19, 2008, 07:08:24 AM
Back EMF

http://www.physics.brown.edu/physics/demopages/Demo/em/demo/5j1023.htm

http://www.physics.brown.edu/physics/demopages/Demo/em/demo/5j2020.htm
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on March 19, 2008, 07:56:25 AM
@Erfinder

"Friends I am tired of people saying things that make absolutely no sense!"


Just a word of advice-  or life lesson in the making have it as you wish.
 

--  Human Stupidity is infinite and as you grow older in life you just see more of it, the difference is taking the time to interact with those that have the potential or else your doing yourself the disadvantage. No one person has all the answers there are too many variables to equate, yet when they work together many points of view can be seen combined and solidified.

So to in response to your statement, trust me man were all tired of stupid shit but do you think the folks saying those things are doing it with male intent.  I think not , there are many places in life no matter which one a person falls in, they have a talent or gift to share whether developed or not, dont discount anyone because they make a few comments that seem ignorant to you.

 I could go on but what do you think of Velcro shoes? pretty stylish in this day in age.. ehh well it happens one of the smartest electronics engineers ive ever met wears them daily .  No tennis shoe or anything normal weird freaking Velcro.  People aren't always as they seem so be it beneficial to not judge them as such.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 19, 2008, 08:22:32 AM
The posts on the backemf are in conflict with each other. after reviewing what I saw from erfinder post link, i'm starting to believe that method is correct and not the above link posted by nightlife. sorry, this is conventional theory, i'm starting to see flaws in it. I can't decide which is right.

@erfinder, you mention passion and that you have only met one person with the same amount of passion. I state to you now, that there are many of us that eat, drink, smoke and dream of this stuff 24-7,365 for more then 30 years. we are possessed. The brain never stops. devotion to electronics and electrical like my friends and myself is never ending, this devotion comes from deep within. This breed of technician builds anything and everything with no hesitation of cost or time and with whatever is at hand. if it interests them, they will build it.

Thus, you can't put all your capacitors, resistors and coils all in one bundle and expect them to get it or making it work. they might or might not get lucky, and you can bet that someone will always disagree or agree to disagree, but this is the point of learning. this is how we learn. we communicate. oh, and i might mention that your communicating with less then 10% of the population of visitors on this site, that means 90% or so that your not taking into account and are roaming and reading but not interacting. this also means that a very few are actually building and doing experiments and sharing. so be happy, since your making the other >90% happy!!! LOL -->> that means only less then 2% or so are going to disagree with you and make your life miserable.

so to answer your questions:  and perhaps answer some of mine.

->? would love to share my findings, as I have found many many things, but who cares if theres no device attached to the text. -->> "pictures are worth a thousand words, text description of working device is worth more", thus i do care, but you have to be as clear as possible in your definitions, look at Tesla's definitions, very clear and precise.

->Tesla converted alternating currents into impulse currents. -->>This is a new term for me, what is impulse currents. is this a Tesla longitudinal compression wave? switched dc or something else?

->In Tesla's mechanical circuits you can have AC, DC, and impulse currents all operating in the same conductor!!! -->>Yes, but is this the secret or has it to do more with timing when these different events will occur?   

-> you say that self induced currents are a source of power, ok, I agree on this but i require a little bit more input please, or direct us via links, leaving us hang in the wind is rude.

OK, well thats about it. I could suggest one other thing. rather then leave, create another profile and use it. no one will know who you are. stick around and have some fun.

Thanks and Good Luck!

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on March 19, 2008, 04:24:33 PM

SELF-INDUCED CURRENTS ARE A SOURCE OF POWER!!!


This is the most important quote, the most important truth, that any of you will read in this decade - perhaps even in your entire life.

In Tesla's mechanical circuits you can have AC, DC, and impulse currents all operating in the same conductor!!!

Yes, and there properties are very different.


Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 19, 2008, 05:45:09 PM
@grumpy
nice post as usual :)
Quote
In Tesla's mechanical circuits you can have AC, DC, and impulse currents all operating in the same conductor!!!
It is hard to argue with this statement because all of this happens in teslas patent 568177, I have built teslas patent and measured all of these currents in action in a single length of conductor.
Some of you may have realized that when erfinder said---
Quote
Who ever says Tesla abandoned alternating currents is IGNORANT!!!
, he was probably refering to myself as I made this statement in an earlier post to localjoe. I know I should have clarified this statement, what I meant was that I think tesla did abondon low frequency (60Hz) AC because of the limitations of low frequency currents. I have based this belief on measured results from machines I have built and tested and the fact that tesla was producing new patents that utilized his "method of conversion"and HF/HV rather than his conventional low frequency AC machines.
I think many of you here are getting very close to understanding how this circuit works, everyone including myself are learning new things every day. I think we should stay focused and stay on topic if we are going to keep moving forward.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on March 20, 2008, 02:41:26 AM
Been on vecation for a few days, cought some rays, some green beer, all in all a good time! I see people have been buisy, and a bit of progress has been made also! I also see some nice circuits that are brilliant in and of themselves, but what I havent seen is a working model (thoretically speeking) of the circuit on which the thread is based!

I would be most impressed if someone would stand on a limb, and walk through the basic opperation of the circuit in more than one cycle, point out where the different features can be found (types of current, "BEMF" oscillatory frequencies with respect to other parts, etc.......).

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Maximumgravity1 on March 20, 2008, 05:21:55 AM
I'll stand on the limb....

Below is a modified version of my circuit that appears to be working properly.  I would link to the videos, but You Tube has been updating all night, and I can't upload.

Anyway, my theory:

The "choke coils" in my diagram are my Cooks Coils primaries (small wires) and coupled with the coil in the relay provide my areas of high self-inductance.  I believe if I ran my source voltage through my Cook Coil "secondaries" I would have enough "self inductance" in the primaries to destroy every component in my circuit, and melt some stuff....

The circuit is basically 12v DC through the entire circuit (initially).  Once the current makes its way around to the "NC" side of the relay, it has charged both sides of the 47uf cap with full 12v load, full potential of all the self-inductance coils.

As soon as the relay powers on, and the switch moves to "NO" the circuit breaks, and causes a "pulse / kick" from the BEMF to flow through the entire circuit and radiate out through the "0-Turn primary" (and the Cook coils, and the battery).  Since both sides of the cap are connected through the "0-Turn primary", it allows the cap to discharge in an oscillatory manner - as discharging caps will do.  This oscillation too is discharged through all parts of the circuit.  Since we have an area of high self-inductance, and the BEMF is now the dominate force in the circuit, it causes the coils to allow the "resistive force" to flow into the circuit, since EMF is not dominating.  This too flows through the entire circuit, including the cap and "0-Turn primary".  At the speed at which all of this is happening is almost simultaneous, I believe the cap and "0-Turn primary" are receiving a "charge" - which we perceive as the BEMF "kick".  This too probably causes another oscillating discharge of the cap.

Since the "0-turn primary" is the main reason for our entire circuit, it is continually receiving an onslaught of charges to inductively pass through to the secondary.  Although it has little to no "self-induction" it is receiving a continual barrage of varying currents.  From 12V source, to BEMF radiant kicks, to oscillating discharges of the cap.  Now as all these currents are induced into the 24-Turn secondary, it too is undergoing it's own cycles of charges and discharges due to the 4700uf caps in the working circuit.  Even in the original patent, the discharging plates will act like an air-core cap.  This will cause the working circuit to experience it's own oscillations, BEMF kicks, and oscillatory discharges, completely separate from the inductive circuit and main voltage.  On top of all of this, the inductive nature of the transformer (M / N in the patent) is raising the potential in the working circuit with every form of induction.

About this time the relay causes the "NC" switch to re-close, and the cycle begins again.  In my real-world circuit, the relay squeals - akin to a vibration, there are no clicks - it oscillates WAAAAY to fast.  Only through heavier resistance can I slow the squeals and vibrations to clicks  The speed at which the source voltage is pulsing through the circuit is unmeasurable.  Likewise, the current in the working circuit across the 4700uf caps is indeterminable weather it is in the process of charging or discharging.  It is just continual electrical flow. 

So, once the circuit is running, at any given point in the circuit, at any given time, the circuit is AC, DC and pulsed, from source, BEMF and inductance.  Interestingly my meter will read with only on lead attached as two leads across the working circuit will discharge it.

Anyway, it is late, and I may not have explained it very clearly, and I may be wrong, but that is how I see it at present.  Also, as a side note, when I say "current" or "voltage" I don't mean necessarily amps or volts int he "traditional" sense - I mean basically electrical flow.


EDIT:  I forgot to add, this is more akin to 568,176 then 568,177, but the principles are basically the same - including my "0-Turn primary".
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on March 20, 2008, 08:01:07 AM
Thanks for putting yourself out there, hopefully more will follow suit, and a conversation will ensue.

One suggestion, draw out the basic operation of the patent, then recheck your setup, I think you will notice something amiss.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Maximumgravity1 on March 20, 2008, 12:59:33 PM
@armagdn03

Will do.  One thing that has bothered me is not getting a difference of potential across the cap.  I am not getting measurable results with the circuit below, but I do feel it is more inline with the 568177 patent.  Maybe therein will lie my answers....

EDIT:  Let me try that circuit again - I am a little more awake now and realize that wasn't the correct one.  This one is not much better, as I am still not getting measurable results, but I feel this one is a close approximation of 568177.  I still may be missing something, but...well...that wouldn't be a first...
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: am1ll3r on March 20, 2008, 02:13:42 PM
Try moving your choke coil like this...
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on March 20, 2008, 06:24:43 PM
Just as every cause has an effect, you have to look at Tesla's circuits as a whole - both ends at the same time.

If you have compression - you have expansion.

In this image, the transmiter and reciever make up the circuit - they are not separate.  When compression occurs at the transmitter, expansion must occur at the receiver - simultaniously.

I added some of Walter Russel's images to help visualize this.

Notice the lower image in the center - these forces can be unbalanced - what does this mean in the physical world?

EDIT: So, how does circuit of "Erfinder's Challenge" work when looking at it from both ends?

EDIT: anyone dobting the existence of these two forces can consult the works of Francis Nipher and Henry Wheatstone who both proved it.  Nipher went on to show that the two are not different things but are opposites of the same.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on March 20, 2008, 07:07:07 PM
OK.  I agree.

Do you care to talk about these opposites?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on March 20, 2008, 07:34:45 PM
The silence is almost unbearable...LOL!

Come on Erfinder! 

Can we connect compression/expansion together with self-induced currents?

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: am1ll3r on March 20, 2008, 08:04:50 PM
Also standing out on the limb... This will probally need some correcting but have a look.

(http://home.epix.net/~amiller/to/2.gif)
-
(http://home.epix.net/~amiller/to/3.gif)
-
(http://home.epix.net/~amiller/to/4.gif)
-
(http://home.epix.net/~amiller/to/5.gif)
-
(http://home.epix.net/~amiller/to/6.gif)
-
(http://home.epix.net/~amiller/to/7.gif)
-
(http://home.epix.net/~amiller/to/8.gif)
-
(http://home.epix.net/~amiller/to/9.gif)
-
(http://home.epix.net/~amiller/to/10.gif)
-
(http://home.epix.net/~amiller/to/11.gif)

The genius of this circuit is the gain in from the occilations that are formed simply by turning it off. (Make and break of the circuit controller).
So far this is my understanding of it...

-am1ll3r
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on March 20, 2008, 09:47:56 PM

(battery) (inductance)  (capacitor)  (primary)  (secondary)

    +              -                  +               -              +


Yes, this is understood.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on March 20, 2008, 10:34:45 PM
Also standing out on the limb... This will probally need some correcting but have a look.


The genius of this circuit is the gain in from the occilations that are formed simply by turning it off. (Make and break of the circuit controller).
So far this is my understanding of it...

-am1ll3r

What program do you use to create these?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: am1ll3r on March 20, 2008, 10:38:44 PM

Quote
What program do you use to create these?

A program called snagit.

http://www.techsmith.com/screen-capture.asp?CMP=KgoogleStmhome
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on March 21, 2008, 04:36:23 AM
@am1ll3r

Nice work with the graphics.

You did this with Snagit. Geez must have taken you ages. I use it to grab video images. Pretty snazzy work indeed.

But there are so many graphics that trying to make heads or tales would take some time to see if there are any mistakes, but this would be a major task because you have lots of things going on there. I am not completely fluent enough, well more like confident enough to explain.

Plus guys like @AC or @Erfinder would need so much time to review each graphic that I think it will not be feasible to clarify each one. Just identifying locations on each graphic for each correction, etc., would take a long time.

So don't get mad if there is not much comment because the task is tremendous. The lack of comment has no bearing on the level of appreciation people will have for the actual work you put into this. Good on ya.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: bocas on March 21, 2008, 02:37:55 PM
This is what I have learned so far working with the parts Erfinder gave us.  The L/R of both inductors is important.  My first L2 (primary)inductor had too small of resistance (2.3 ohms) which gave it too long of charge time.   My relay contacts arced too much so that I would lose a lot of the "self-induced current" back through the battery instead of through L2 and C1. I found that a 23 ohm primary helped everything run better.  My contacts still arc, but not as bad.  I found that Tesla wrote many patents about his circuit controller to try and prevent this loss of "self-induced current".

Bocas
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: innovation_station on March 21, 2008, 04:07:20 PM
OK.  I agree.

Do you care to talk about these opposites?

hi grumpy

i do have something to make you think about that pattend

what is G? in the pattend

hummm

kinda looks important.....  in fact i think i have seen that symble .....    many places  no? 

ist
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 21, 2008, 05:00:53 PM
@all
Here is something interesting ;D, In the picture below is an electricity map borrowed from bill beaty's website. As we can see what we call "static"electricity is just electricity at a high potential---nothing more. But it should be remembered that while all are electricity, each rise in potential changes the properties or qualities of the electricity, how it interacts----or rather the level of interaction.
from erfinder:
Quote
The primary is inductively related to the secondary of the transformer, which should be constructed as Tesla specifies in patent no 512,340 Coils For Electro Magnets, then the secondary becomes a capacitor.

-------Then the secondary become a capacitor  ;D
Tesla stated in his lectures that he saw no difference between his discharges from the secondaries and the discharges from a Vandegraff (static)generator, because there is no difference. If you look up "electrostatic induction" you will find a charged body can charge another body in an opposite sense with NO reduction in charge on the original body. So we can say the primary will charge the secondary in the exact same way as a capacitor is charged, but we have a problem--- the secondaries are one plate of a capacitor so BOTH ends of the secondaries are charged equally---- there is no potential difference between them---- only to "other" things.
The ordinary capacitor has a very special secret you have never heard before ;D that is you can charge a "shorted" capacitor( It's terminals tied together) as ONE plate of a capacitor with no effects on the source of the charging action(for free). You then seperate the capacitor terminals and place it in a circuit so it can discharge itself to a lower potential like --- ground,  through an inductance thus it can perform work or maintain oscillations in a circuit. ;)
This Electricity in our circuits "IS" the same stuff that makes your hair stand on end, we have no need to label it as something else. This high potential is what is required for "electrostatic induction", electrostatic induction will charge any body to high potential for free, charging a body was never the problem--- producing a way to discharge it to perform work was.
Now you know what the secondaries are for ;D
 
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on March 21, 2008, 05:10:07 PM
OK.  I agree.

Do you care to talk about these opposites?

hi grumpy

i do have something to make you think about that pattend

what is G? in the pattend

hummm

kinda looks important.....  in fact i think i have seen that symble .....    many places  no? 

ist

Id have to say the motor is pretty important seeing its obviouslly the timing mechanism/and used in his circuits as a source of high inductance.as well the motor  windings are hooked to the primary transmitting coil.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: M@rcel on March 21, 2008, 05:12:45 PM
The ordinary capacitor has a very special secret you have never heard before ;D that is you can charge a "shorted" capacitor( It's terminals tied together) as ONE plate of a capacitor with no effects on the source of the charging action(for free). You then seperate the capacitor terminals and place it in a circuit so it can discharge itself to a lower potential like --- ground,
Wooo, wait a minute....
Are you, in other words, saying that
- short a capacitor
- give it a charge (both plates will be equally charged)
- undo the short (both plates still have the same charge)
- Because the plates are equally charged, the charges will repell, trying to get away from the plates
- Connect one terminal, through a circuit, to ground and a current will flow

edit: I wonder if undoing the short is needed...
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 21, 2008, 05:39:38 PM
@marcel
Charge both sides of a capacitor equally with the same potential at the same time, then disconnect one side of the cap and discharge it to ground, you now have one plate of the cap charged and one discharged  (a potential difference). Connect the "charged" cap back in a circuit and discharge it to perform work. If BOTH plates of the capacitor are charged together it is One plate of a capacitor, there is no current flow persay, we are talking about Electrostatic induction.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on March 21, 2008, 05:58:00 PM
But, but, but, but geez I'm stutering.

If you put a shorted cap across a battery, are'nt you shorting the battery also and this in itself would waste much more battery power then what has charged the cap?

Now, I am so confused.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Steven Dufresne on March 21, 2008, 06:50:16 PM
The ordinary capacitor has a very special secret you have never heard before ;D that is you can charge a "shorted" capacitor( It's terminals tied together) as ONE plate of a capacitor with no effects on the source of the charging action(for free).

Not for free. You did have to bring the source close enough to the shorted wires. That takes work. The capacitor itself has two plates separated by a dielectric and you're trying to force like charges onto both plates. Like charges repel each other, so you will be doing work pushing the equal charge on both plates. Using the spring analogy, you're compressing two springs together.

You then seperate the capacitor terminals and place it in a circuit so it can discharge itself to a lower potential like --- ground,  through an inductance thus it can perform work or maintain oscillations in a circuit. ;)

You unlatch one of the springs and it goes 'sproing'. The work you're getting out is half the work you put in when you compressed it (i.e. charged it.) You'll get the other half out when you unlatch the other spring. For the analogy to apply, each spring has to have a separate latch.

I could be out to lunch since I'm coming into topic in the middle. Someone just asked me to look at you're posting because they didn't fully understand it and vaguely thought it might be useful for my own work.
-Steve
http://rimstar.org
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 21, 2008, 08:24:14 PM
@wattsup
Not across the source battery --across the terminals of the secondaries N in teslas patent.

@Steven Dufresne
If I rub a red balloon in my hair and bring this charged red balloon near another blue balloon then this blue balloon will be charged in an opposite sense to the red one-- electrostatic induction.
The red balloon is then attracted to the blue balloon as they have opposite charges.
In patent 568177 the primary M charges the secondaries N, this is through HV/HF current--- we could say the higher the frequency of this current the more it would resemble DC as the alternations are closer together. This DC just so happens to change polarity, it alternates, I wonder what might happen if as the the primary M potential started to rise and peak the secondary was disconnected? In this case we could say the secondaries M as they are connected with a shorted capacitor would be charged as a whole representing one plate of a capacitor as a whole, the primary N is the other plate. We are speaking of electrostatic induction like the balloons, we are not trying to seperate the capacitor nor the balloons so there can be no work involved. The capacitor and secondaries are now charged equally as one capacitor plate would be, we disconnect one wire from the secondaries connected to the capacitor, unshort  the capacitor and we now have two equally charged charged bodies--- a capacitor with high potential on both plates(is it charged or discharged?) and the secondaries. If we ground one plate of the capacitor we are discharging a charged body not unlike any other charged object but this action must produce a potential difference across the capacitor, we have charged the capacitor by discharging it ---one plate.Once you have a charged capacitor it should be obvious what we should do with it.

The primaries are one charged plate-- the secondaries the other.
The capacitor on the secondaries is one charged plate-- the secondaries the other.
The capacitor has one charged plate and one discharged

It is a capacitor within a capacitor within a capacitor, we disconnect to divide, we divide and discharge to have energy reproduce itself. Reproduction through division Im sure I have heard that somwhere before. :) Remember we are not speaking of electric currents we are speaking of charged bodies, only when charged bodies are discharged does the electric current manifest itself.

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: one on March 21, 2008, 09:08:48 PM
@ allcanadian

Do you use a apark-gap like Tesla did it in some of his projects ?

In "A pratical guido to "Free Energy" Devices" they mention, that the key to OU is a disruptive discharge...

http://www.panaceauniversity.org/D3.pdf


In the link in this quote  there is  a  Ed Grey  power tube   the diagram is on   page 6.

The  diagram  shows   a carbon  section   in the  electrode .   
Can  someone  explain to me the  function  of this   carbon  piece

Thanks 

gary
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on March 21, 2008, 09:37:47 PM
@marcel
Charge both sides of a capacitor equally with the same potential at the same time, then disconnect one side of the cap and discharge it to ground, you now have one plate of the cap charged and one discharged  (a potential difference). Connect the "charged" cap back in a circuit and discharge it to perform work. If BOTH plates of the capacitor are charged together it is One plate of a capacitor, there is no current flow persay, we are talking about Electrostatic induction.

An interesting idea, but unfortunately in the world of physics it does not work like this. both sides of a capacitor are trying to neutralize with one another, if you were to connect one side to ground, it would not discharge into it, rather it would stay the same. Try it for yourself, think about the physics of a capacitor, and why this would be so.

Your line of thought in this area is flawed, what you are inducing in other objects through electrostatic induction is a polarity, that once brought out of the field will neutralize itself.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: M@rcel on March 21, 2008, 10:45:00 PM
@marcel
Charge both sides of a capacitor equally with the same potential at the same time, then disconnect one side of the cap and discharge it to ground, you now have one plate of the cap charged and one discharged  (a potential difference). Connect the "charged" cap back in a circuit and discharge it to perform work. If BOTH plates of the capacitor are charged together it is One plate of a capacitor, there is no current flow persay, we are talking about Electrostatic induction.

An interesting idea, but unfortunately in the world of physics it does not work like this. both sides of a capacitor are trying to neutralize with one another, if you were to connect one side to ground, it would not discharge into it, rather it would stay the same. Try it for yourself, think about the physics of a capacitor, and why this would be so.

Your line of thought in this area is flawed, what you are inducing in other objects through electrostatic induction is a polarity, that once brought out of the field will neutralize itself.
When both plates are charged with the same charge and the terminals are both disconnected, the charge has no way to go (if we ignore leakage). So no neutralization is possible. Connecting one terminal to ground would make that plate and ground equalize (in practice the plate would level it's charge with ground). When we disconnect this terminal from ground again, we have two differently charged plates.

Where is the flaw?

Why would we first want to discharge half of the charge (one plate) to ground? Why not use it by putting the load between the plate and earth?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 22, 2008, 12:01:01 AM
@allcanadian
charging a body was never the problem--- producing a way to discharge it to perform work was.Now you know what the secondaries are for.

This is exactly what i was going to say a week ago, and couldn't get it down into words.
So if i read correctly, i can take my now impulse currents coming from a cap and discharge point and drive a coil which then drives the load. yea, but this is classic Tesla, am i missing something? help.

edit: I tried this in every fashion, nope, can't really run my load very well. even under resonance. no go.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on March 22, 2008, 02:05:31 AM
@AC

I'm still confused. Even with a secondary, if the cap is shorted and connected to the two wires of the secondary, isn't this like having all four wires connected together.

See diagram below. I would really like to understand this.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: innovation_station on March 22, 2008, 02:07:31 AM
OK.  I agree.

Do you care to talk about these opposites?

hi grumpy

i do have something to make you think about that pattend

what is G? in the pattend

hummm

kinda looks important.....  in fact i think i have seen that symble .....    many places  no? 

ist

Id have to say the motor is pretty important seeing its obviouslly the timing mechanism/and used in his circuits as a source of high inductance.as well the motor  windings are hooked to the primary transmitting coil.

well this needs much talk .... as i can see

also in that pattend i have another question where is the VACUME TUBE?!?!?!?!

IST
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on March 22, 2008, 06:56:08 AM
@marcel
Charge both sides of a capacitor equally with the same potential at the same time, then disconnect one side of the cap and discharge it to ground, you now have one plate of the cap charged and one discharged  (a potential difference). Connect the "charged" cap back in a circuit and discharge it to perform work. If BOTH plates of the capacitor are charged together it is One plate of a capacitor, there is no current flow persay, we are talking about Electrostatic induction.

An interesting idea, but unfortunately in the world of physics it does not work like this. both sides of a capacitor are trying to neutralize with one another, if you were to connect one side to ground, it would not discharge into it, rather it would stay the same. Try it for yourself, think about the physics of a capacitor, and why this would be so.

Your line of thought in this area is flawed, what you are inducing in other objects through electrostatic induction is a polarity, that once brought out of the field will neutralize itself.
When both plates are charged with the same charge and the terminals are both disconnected, the charge has no way to go (if we ignore leakage). So no neutralization is possible. Connecting one terminal to ground would make that plate and ground equalize (in practice the plate would level it's charge with ground). When we disconnect this terminal from ground again, we have two differently charged plates.

Where is the flaw?

Why would we first want to discharge half of the charge (one plate) to ground? Why not use it by putting the load between the plate and earth?

you started out with two  charged plates, and you end with two charged plates.............this is not hard. have you measured the potential difference before and after?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 22, 2008, 07:21:37 AM
ummmm.....I think i'm going to have to rethink my controller and find materials that do not disintegrate. it eat my copper plates and is munching it's way directly towards the extra bonus points lane. LOL. not even pac-man was this much fun!!!
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 22, 2008, 08:39:39 AM

So what is "G" ??

Tesla says in "experiments with alternate currents of high potential and high frequency-1892"...

G is an ordinarily constructed alternator, supplying the primary P  of an induction coil, the secondary S  of which charges the condensers or jars C C.  The terminals of the secondary are connected to the inside coatings of the jars, the outer coatings being connected to the ends of the primary p p of a second induction coil.  This primary p p has a small air gap a b.

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Gustav22 on March 22, 2008, 09:39:43 AM
Hi allcanadian,
In your post
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3972.msg84312.html#msg84312
you did not use N for secondary and M for primary consistently. This confused me a bit, initially.
For example here:
.... one plate of a capacitor as a whole, the primary N is the other plate ...
And you also talk about "the secondaries" as if there were several of them.

However, I think the posting is very important, so you might want to revise it a bit and make it even more clear.
Thank you for the explanation contained in it.
I will try to rephrase the part, which I think I understood and I will start out from your question

.... I wonder what might happen if as the the primary M potential started to rise and peak the secondary was disconnected? ...

As far as I see this is exactly what happens in teslas circuit.
 ;)
Secondary N is an open circuit which has 2 ends (P). Each of these ends represents a plate of a capacitor.
You call this arrangement a "shorted capacitor".

Ok, if what you describe happens,
i.e. when primary (M) is at max. potential and secondary (N) is open circuit,
secondary N would get charged (as a whole). This is where your example applies, with the red balloon charging the blue one.
Where would the charges for the secondary come from? Well, form "radiant energy", or to put it in other words, from the "thin air"  :) between plates (P). This would lead to ozone production between the two plates (P),
probably much like Stan Meyer produced fractured water or "Hydroxy" !?

And yes, after the secondary N got charged in this way, N as a whole could be viewed as a charged capacitor plate, with the primary (M) representing the other charged plate, to complement it.

Is this the proper understanding of what you are saying?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: am1ll3r on March 22, 2008, 02:01:09 PM
ummmm.....I think i'm going to have to rethink my controller and find materials that do not disintegrate. it eat my copper plates and is munching it's way directly towards the extra bonus points lane. LOL. not even pac-man was this much fun!!!

@quantum1024
Hey there I have been using a small piece of copper pipe with electrical tape for the insulated pieces mounted to my motor that came out of an old HO train. The contacts are the pieces of the train that rested against the wheels. It actually works pretty good and to change the make and break points all I have to do is add or remove tape. ;D

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/am1ll3r/TeslaOzone/photo#5180547824231055410"><img src="http://lh5.google.com/am1ll3r/R-UAzGU3ADI/AAAAAAAAAF8/gUkPPsmckUI/s400/DSC05480.JPG.jpg" /></a>

<a href="http://picasaweb.google.com/am1ll3r/TeslaOzone/photo#5180547832820990018"><img src="http://lh3.google.com/am1ll3r/R-UAzmU3AEI/AAAAAAAAAGE/ch-s_JotxoU/s400/DSC05478.JPG.jpg" /></a>
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 22, 2008, 02:24:03 PM

@am1ll3r
ohhhhhh!!!! Thats Nice!  i'll try that. I was thinking about it already last week when i made the first model. but then I was already committed into the first model and went ahead with it.

do you have a control on the motor? I was thinking of using a 555 timer as a pwm motor controller at 12vdc. for spectacular effects I use solder wick, more contacts per mm surface area. but for load control, a single contact works nice. either way - I love the Colors!
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: innovation_station on March 22, 2008, 03:22:53 PM

@am1ll3r
ohhhhhh!!!! Thats Nice!  i'll try that. I was thinking about it already last week when i made the first model. but then I was already committed into the first model and went ahead with it.

do you have a control on the motor? I was thinking of using a 555 timer as a pwm motor controller at 12vdc. for spectacular effects I use solder wick, more contacts per mm surface area. but for load control, a single contact works nice. either way - I love the Colors!

hey guys


where do you all think my no control tpu came from ......?? ;)

you all arnt gonna make me post the pattend and explain how it is possible to achive a no control motor / timeing unit...eh??

may i suggest you all study ....

i have scoped the wave and discovered some time ago how it is controled

also when this device is exposed all the hows and whys then i think you all just
may be blowen away as i was a bout 4 months ago......

best of luck  i have done my best on less than a shoe string budget .....


enjoy

and i gave it away  :) for no cost  ;D  and you all know what it makes me feel good  8)  to do this !!

so i saw my children yesterday for the first time in a long time....  it sure reminds me of what LOVE is....
 
so i showed BLYSS my latest dwg and she says daddy build a dirt bike daddy just give it a push she says....


LOVE THIS IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT.....


IST
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 22, 2008, 04:22:30 PM
No i won't ask you that, just the patent number, no explanation required. and if this is the automatic
magnetic quench circuit, i have already read that.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: M@rcel on March 22, 2008, 04:24:41 PM
so i saw my children yesterday for the first time in a long time....  it sure reminds me of what LOVE is....
:D :D :D
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 22, 2008, 04:26:18 PM
@armagdn03
Quote
An interesting idea, but unfortunately in the world of physics it does not work like this
We have a winner!    ;D If we divided the whole we would have two halves because we are dealing with surface charges thus surface area of a charged body. This seems to be the case in everything we build , we are always losing something in the process through every step we make. I can't say I believe what I posted to any extent but there is a paradox somewhere in my ramblings, the properties of high voltage open possiblities far removed from low voltage current we are used to dealing with. I have been thinking on this whacky capacitor theory for a while and damned if I can find a way to make it work.
Best Regards
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: quantum1024 on March 22, 2008, 05:14:04 PM
@allcanadian --> damned if I can find a way to make it work.

edit: I know what you mean, scratching your head on a problem for days even weeks.  ;)

@all
take time for the moment and think rapid inductive collapse of a transformer! no caps anywhere in the circuit. then think about the quick disruptive discharge, visualize it. now picture a load on the secondary. what will it do. picture each disruptive discharge and how it effects the load and the transformer. now go and build it. ;D

Experiment 1
step 1: do the following. find a transformer, any type of power transformer will do (try different types). get a battery 12vdc, and tap one of the coils on the transformer rapidly (one lead tapped one lead held in place). I would start with the primary or lowest resistance reading. continue tapping rapidly and see if you can reach a point where you notice something interesting, like an increase in the output spark. Connect a load (lightbulb 7-20 watts- play here.) on the other side of the transformer. PLAY. two-three parts and thats it. nothing fancy. enjoy.

Step 2: now add a neo magnet to one of the poles of the battery, and again begin tapping rapidly. note the intensity of the arcs as you do this. this is called magnetic quenching.

So here we have the basics:

1) rapid inductive coil charging
2) rapid inductive collapse creating disruptive discharges
3) and magnetic quenching

report findings! what did you see? what happened?
 
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on March 24, 2008, 04:43:49 AM
Two currents - opposite directions of flow.

When they pass each other in opposite directions a magnetic field is created.

When Thomson discovered the electron, his arrangement was biased and the electron detected was negative, he missed the other one.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on March 24, 2008, 03:09:01 PM
I already agreed that the two currents are different aspects fo the same one and that there is only the one which creats the illusion of two.

I connect at 28k and that is all that is available to me.  So, email may be slow, but it works.

This may seem to shoot over many heads here, but it may also open a few minds along the way.  They can look up these things for themselves and reproduce the experiments of old.  When I first read of the experiments conducted to determine if there is one current or two, I was fascinated by the approach that many took to determine the nature of electricity.  Nipher, Wheatstone, Roentgen, and Rowland all proved that the two currents are "one" and that they appear to move in opposite directions.  Nipher cought both compression and expansion on film.  Roentgen showed that the relationship bewteen the conductors and the dielectric could be manipulated to produce the same magnetic field that Rowland produced with two currents (moving charges) in opposite directions - except Roentgen moved his dielectric between fixed charged conductors.

Nipher used the same term as you do - illusion.  These gentlemen are not Tesla, but they helped me better understand Tesla and Tesla was familiar with their work.

RE has no charge, is it a current in the dielectric? 

After all we are in a sea of dielectric and you can not get away from it.

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on March 24, 2008, 06:42:16 PM
So, we can conclude that when looking at electricity, we must look at the conductor, compression, expansion (both flows or currents) and the dielectric all at the same time.

A magnetic field (and hence a current is generated) is created whenever two charges move in opposite directions in relation to a fixed dielectric or when the dielectric between two opposite charges moves (or changes?) in relation to these charges.

Hmm.  A moving (changing) dielectric generator might be an interesting device.  I wonder if RE qualifies as "moving dielectric" - synonymous with "changing dielectric"? 

We might ponder what happens when all three move in different directions.

I ought to shut up now, before I attract too much attention.

(I might be back to delete this in a few minutes, but right now - I'm HOT!)
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Ren on March 24, 2008, 09:53:49 PM
amazing stuff to ponder, the wonders of the universe! I hate to interrupt the train of thought, but Im sure it will continue for all that are truely involved ;)

I have a simple question for Erfinder or AC, or anyone who has built the device this thread is based on. Is it possible to build using Erfinders parts list ONLY? I was thinking last night that the circuit controller could be homemade, and  its function to fire the relay. If  it can be done just with the relay then I will continue as such.

Please continue Gentlemen!
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on March 25, 2008, 12:25:36 AM
@Ren

It works with a relay like I and others are doing. Granted the advent of having a rotary setup is so appealing and hard to resist but at this stage I already have enough on my plate.

@Grumpy

Don't remove your post and please take Erfinder up on his offer. Geez, that's a no brainer.

@all

Still on the EC but having troubles getting the second relay to produce. I have a few other ideas and then I will post a diagram if I need help on it. I know I'm close.

Since I rarely do only one thing, and based on Jack Durban's hint about a reed switch, I have been doing some tests with a reed switch, coil and magnet to see the effects. By placing the reed next to the coil core and starting it with the magnet and by positioning the magnet farther and father from the reed, you get to a point where you have clear oscillations. Pretty neet and simple.

Now, I have ordered some three way reed switches and plan to do the following test as per the other diagram below, and variations thereof.

The basic idea is working with flyback. (NO - not BEMF). If you hit the + and - points with a dc voltage, meaning fast on/off, at the on/off the left coil will draw in the reed to the N/O connecting the flyback of left coil to discharge into the right coil, thus pulling the the right reed connecting the right flyback to the left coil and so on. I expect the current will reverse polarities on each flyback discharge. I just wonder if with one DC hit, this can switch over several times before it stops.

The idea is you can probably connect more then two coils, as many as you want and have the whole system cascade from one to the other and then back to the first coil. I am not 100% sure this will work but will try it soon.

The reed switch has the truest reaction to the magnetic impulse and by adjusting the distance of the reed you can adjust the magnetic force you want to develop inside the coils. This type of easy switching would enable flyback to move around without dying in any electronics. Also this could be an easy switching method for multiple coil systems like a few of Tesla's patents without creating any adverse effects on the flyback.

I am wondering if there would be caps or diodes, needed, etc.

Any ideas.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on March 25, 2008, 02:32:00 PM
@Erfinder

R-I-am
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 27, 2008, 07:41:26 PM
@all
I got a little off track for a moment and have refocused on the basics, I have found an interesting analogy in regards to teslas circuit.
If I had a perfect hard steel ball in my hand and dropped it on a large perfectly hard surface I could drop the ball and it would bounce back to it's original height. We could say this is a perfectly conservative action but when we analyse the forces involved something seems out of place. For one, upon hitting the floor the ball transforms all its momentum into a force acting downward on the floor until it comes to rest in an instant, but in order for the ball to bounce back upward the floor must be pushed downward "again" as action/reaction dictates.However this dual force cannot happen if the floor was made of let's say rubber because all the energy is slowly absorbed and released as in the lower picture, but above the actions are very abrupt and near instant reactions like when the switch is opened in teslas circuit.
In Teslas circuit we have a large self-inductance, a small self-inductance(primary), a capacitor and a circuit controller(switch). I would like you to consider how this ball analogy applies to Teslas circuit and I wil post what I see happening later, I was surprised at my conclusion and I think you will be too. ;D
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on March 28, 2008, 06:00:43 AM
@AC

Good observation, interesting analogy, nice question, but please confirm which Tesla circuit, yours, the EC, the ozone patent, geez I'm getting kinda mixed up and do not want to give the wrong answer.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: am1ll3r on March 29, 2008, 03:25:25 PM
@allcanadian

I need an analogy for your analogy... Does is the ball represent the impulse discharge from the large self-inductance?
Been thinking about it for a few days now and I just not seeing it... ???

Lets not let this thread die. ;)
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 29, 2008, 06:20:40 PM
@wattsup
The circuit in question is teslas patent 568177 as shown below, it's interesting that I have made countless variations to this circuit but cannot in any way improve it  ;D that should tell us something about the genius of simplicity.

@am1ll3r
The analogy of the bouncing ball and Teslas circuit is not readily apparent until you build the circuit as Tesla states. First we should define the circuit components, we can call the large self-inductance(AC motor) L1, the small self-inductance(primary) L2, capacitor C and circuit controller(switch) CC. When CC closes we can see this as something set in motion as in the ball analogy position 1, but what has been set in motion? In both cases we could say energy as an applied force has produced motion, force leads to motion and both can be considered as a form of energy.So the charging of L1 can be represented as the motion of the ball from position 1 to position 2, the ball is energy--- a disturbance in the medium--matter. The impact of the ball at position 2 can be represented by the opening of CC, in this case we are concerned with the duration of the disturbance. In position 2 the ball has momentum and this momentum is the same energy that was imparted to the ball through the accelerating force of gravity. In L1 the accelerating force is a potential difference in the source battery, this potential difference produces motion as an electric current which stores energy in L1 as a magnetic field, the magnetic field is in motion as it is expanding. When CC opens the magnetic field in L1 collapses producing an electric current(inductive discharge current) in the same direction as the the original current flow. We can see this in the ball at position 2, the arrow A is pointing in the same direction as the arrow on the ball. In ball position 3 we can see a division of forces, this division of forces could be considered as happening in almost the same instant as ball position 2, in the upper picture to a greater extent in the lower picture to a lesser extent. In teslas circuit ball position 3 could represent the discharging of L1 and the charging of capacitor C. What is not well know is that the resistance of capacitor C to motion determines the voltage rise on C. If a large capacitor is used there is no voltage rise on C above the source voltage if a small capacitor is used the voltage rise will be very large. My replication of this circuit produces a voltage rise from 12v to 250v on capacitor C. In this case we could say the floor or dividing line of the ball analogy represents the capacitance C, the resilience of this line will determine the quality of the reaction. If the capacitor C is charged to only 12v--source voltage-- it has nowhere to go, it cannot return to the source battery as they are equal. If the capacitor C is charged to 250v then it could easily discharge its energy back into the 12v source battery----- or we could raise its electrical pressure(voltage) again by discharging the capacitor through L2 back into itself during the next switch closure CC producing a contiuous series of high potential oscillations in the circuit as a whole. The question is why? In the thread next door "tesla switch" they seem to be having great difficulty in retaining the energy in there circuits, they are always losing something ;D they have heat losses, massive switching losses due to electronics and seem to be losing half there energy when discharging one capacitor into another LOL ;D and somewhere along the line they expect to come out ahead-- I mean no offence trust me I have been there. In the ball analogy we need only concern ourselves with ball position 4 in the end, how much energy have we retained in the end?. To put it simply-- in  teslas circuit the motion of energy will always produce a voltage "rise", we never incure a voltage drop persay nor the losses associated with large current flows. We retain a greater majority of the energy we put into the system, the motion of energy through an electric motor performs work I think we can all agree on that, but what if this motion producing work only happens when a high potential is returning to its low potential source? What would happen if this high potential energy were discharged into an resonant LC circuit where L was in the form of an electric motor?.

Here is an interesting quote I found which explains why I believe I know less today than I did last year, I am quite confident I know nothing ;D
Quote
Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge: it is those who know little, not those who know much, who so positively assert that this or that problem will never be solved by science. (Charles Darwin, Introduction to The Descent of Man, 1871)
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on March 29, 2008, 09:28:43 PM
@AC

Ive been building for bit here and have noticed one interesting thing.  My setup is jsut like your circuit diagram except whre you have the switch in the middle i put a homade relay/coil on bolt with springy arm above it .
 
What happened is this - as the relay spead up the motor initally slowed down and seemd to "SYNC" itself with the relays on off motion.  So I could say it adopted a different timing  ;D 

Anywhoo i was mechanically limited at this point but did see ac on the very small secondary i had wound on a wooden dowel.  Current and voltage.  I think for the best speed/switching time the motor should be used because of the ease of timing. I wanted to build one exactly like his but i cant seem to find laminate plates or anything to suffice for a core that looks similar to wind feild coils on.  I was continplating using this steel cable i have as thick as a bic pen,  making a circular form with it, couple of wraps say 6 inch diameter, Taping it and winding 2 feild coils on it.  From what i gather it would be similar to his device for conversion and should still work like a motor to spin the armature i put in there / axel with magnets.  Has anyone else noticed the syncing effect with any other timing mechanism? And or have advice on building the motor for timing purposes and later projects?

                                                                           Joe
                                                                                     
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on March 31, 2008, 02:00:51 AM
@AC

I am putting up a diagram of your circuit as per my trials using a relay.

The relay switches but extremely fast and production on the working side is very low, about 3-4 volts. Granted the draw on the battery is low also.

My capacitor is a bank using many combinations of values but still no great production. My scope shows almost nothing, just a flat line with some minor peaks.

I tried putting a capacitor over the relay coil to slow it down but this heats up the wires very quickly. I think I will have to add another choke inline with the relay coil.

As of now, my Trial #3 is performing better than this set-up so I am kind of perplexed as to how I can improve this one. I will still use my Trial #3 to continue the EC.

With the Trial #3 setup I have done many many tests with a wide variety of chokes, transformers and capacitors,  noticing all the fine changes, etc., and with the scope I can see the current switching around (flyback), plus the first cap was getting up to 500 volts spikes that you cannot see on the digital meter but you can on the scope. Just great.

Anyways, if there are any changes you or anyone can recommend on your circuit as shown below, please let me know.

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: scotty1 on March 31, 2008, 11:06:53 AM
One time I made a circuit like Tesla's......I connected one of the secondary terminals to a flouro tube...and when I held the glass of the tube, my whole forearm felt like it was being hit my tiny bullets....just like Tesla described  ;D
Experimenting is mostly fun...except for making commutators and mechanical switches  ;)
-----------------------------------------------------
Hey Grumpy you said "Two currents - opposite directions of flow.

When they pass each other in opposite directions a magnetic field is created.

When Thomson discovered the electron, his arrangement was biased and the electron detected was negative, he missed the other one.".......
I like that one!!!......i'll send you the word doc I made with the diagram from a text book....
Don't let anyone change your mind......if you think it...it must be right  ;D
Cheers
Scotty
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on March 31, 2008, 05:47:21 PM
@wattsup
I think your circuit should look more like the picture below, the relay coils are in series with the choke.I also reversed the primary/secondary as the purpose is to raise voltage on the cap. When the push button is closed the relay contacts short the larger series circuit, this opens the relay contacts and the relay becomes self-acting.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: am1ll3r on March 31, 2008, 06:40:26 PM
@anyone
Can you tell me what way initial current from the battery flows? positive to negative or negative to positive. I know there are (mainstream theories) but as Tesla built this circuit what was his way of viewing current flow?

Thanks,
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on March 31, 2008, 09:09:49 PM
@AC

Thanks for the mod. I will try it when I get home. Can't wait.

@am1ll3r

That has been the proverbial question I have had to struggle with even today as it was not really made clear. I think to answer this in either way, someone really has to go out on the limb, so to speak.

Technically, it is supposed to be the negative out and positive in, but when you look at most circuit diagrams, it is in reverse. Don't know why, but it is. I would be curious to know also what Erfinder and AC would say about this and others.

Just to let you know, Erfinder had already confirmed to me in this thread that the positive on the ozone patent is Terminal A which is the positive in the circuit.

I alwasy think back to the lines regarding positive attracts positive, etc., but Erfinder asked me to remove it because it was not time to talk about this then. But when you think in terms of current flow, this may confirm that the current leaves the battery from the negative and returns via the positive. negative repells, positive attracts, etc. I'll leave it at that.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Maximumgravity1 on April 01, 2008, 01:20:54 AM
Tesla may not have specified, because it may not matter.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: am1ll3r on April 01, 2008, 01:51:14 AM
BTW
@allcanadian
Thank You for your explanation the other day:)

I think I have a good idea whats going on here ... well at least what suppose to go on. My circuit is set up exactly like the ozone patent with the addition of a choke. With my limited  parts I have I have built a test set up and what I am seeing is on the working side ( the secondary I tried several caps to cancel the self induction of it and the best one working for me is a HV cap from a microwave 2300W VAC 1.14mF) While I have the circuit running I can charge this cap up to about 400V almost instantly. It will run a relay no problem AC or DC. I next tried running some Christmas lights and then just ended up using one for testing. I found varying the timing (adjusting my break points on my circuit controller I get various results with the light. I would say my set is a hodgepodge of parts that at best are good for a learning whats going on here. I don't think I can get good results until I get the exact parts that are specific for a determined load.

 
Has anyone built a biflar coil like (COIL FOR ELECTRO-MAGNETS) and tested with this setup. If so how did you make the coil...I was trying to wind one but it turned into a mess. Do they have to be pancake style or can you get the came results (no self induction) by winding them in another fashion?

I think it would be cool as a test bed to run a kids electric scooter on this technology ;D but is it our goal here to use this technology to run our current AC and DC devices or is a stepping stone to new kinds of motors etc...? I would love to think we can build something with everyday accessible  parts and have real world usage.

I know I still have allot to learn but I have a feeling that this will work and others will soon start see it. Thanks so far to everyone for opening my eyes up to this and I hope we can collectively replicate this technology and make working devices.

here is a rather crappy video of my one Christmas light  ;D
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H7ZIksjG7M0




Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: barbosi on April 02, 2008, 02:55:47 PM
@anyone
Can you tell me what way initial current from the battery flows? positive to negative or negative to positive...

I believe Ed Leedskalnin had the answer and made a demonstration too.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: popolibero on April 02, 2008, 03:01:03 PM
Hi Erfinder,

as I understand it the secondary wound bifilar has to be driven at its resonant freq to do its magic acting as a cap. Do you think a normal secondary could drive a separate bifilar coil? I mean like the magnifier setup where the transformer feeds a third resonator (in this case bifilar) with only one wire. Maybe that way many bifilars in series could then be tapped.

regards,
Mario
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: innovation_station on April 05, 2008, 04:05:24 PM
hi guys im still around

i know what the problem is with this thing....

there is just too many ways it can work

i like the ed talk this will take us miles....

i have built many more awsome motors .... and i will show them but not till some more people get on the same page

keep in mind i have not ran them yet  8)

1 more thing to keep in mind is if it is a motor it is also a generator  ;) so i got some 6" and 5"  cores made of water pipe to play around with

i choose to use a iron or steel core material so that my magnetic feild is inside not out side the coil as it is with  copper so i was gonna use a mot tesla ozone circuit to drive the motor  i actually got 40 cores 20 5" and 20 6" to expairment with

 

ist

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on April 05, 2008, 07:37:29 PM
@IS

You are so right about so many ways to make this work. lol

@ACs circuit correction on my AC Trial #1 circuit diagram works perfectly well also, and without using the second terminals of the DPDT relay. I actually got a 600 volts shock by holding my diode. lol OUCH my arm hurts. lol

I have also noticed with my scope connected at two locations on the circuit side that as the working capacitor increases in charge, the voltage in the circuit side increases as well. As if the circuit side is being pushed back or being compressed more and more to overcome the voltage rise on the working side. 

I am still not at the second relay stage although I have managed with some of the caps to get the second relay to work but it works simultaneously to the first. Trying to work out the second relay to pulse once at let's every 10 main relay pulses will require some further thinking if using just the components permitted in the EC. I can always cheat and use a second diode (zenor diode) on the working circuit that would open at let's say 12 or 15 volts to pulse the relay, etc. I'll try it anyways.

There is a link I put in @GKs thread that I will also put here just to not lose it.

You can read the whole page but in general here is some nice information that everyone should look at. Look at the schematic diagram. http://www.thewebfairy.com/missilegate/rfz/swaz/chapter13.htm#e

The whole doc starts here;
http://www.thewebfairy.com/missilegate/rfz/swaz/

There is a nice write up on Viktor Schauberger: Rotational Physics and Extreme Temperature Gradients and so much more on this site that it would take hours and  hours to read. It is in the Nazi Germany time and discusses the many many research projects that were done and how many of the scientists then went to the USA to further it. VS was also forced to work for the Nazis and also thereafter for the USA. Crazy stuff. Both sides were searching for ZPE very actively.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on April 05, 2008, 08:19:25 PM
hi guys im still around

i know what the problem is with this thing....

there is just too many ways it can work

i like the ed talk this will take us miles....

i have built many more awsome motors .... and i will show them but not till some more people get on the same page

keep in mind i have not ran them yet  8)

1 more thing to keep in mind is if it is a motor it is also a generator  ;) so i got some 6" and 5"  cores made of water pipe to play around with

i choose to use a iron or steel core material so that my magnetic feild is inside not out side the coil as it is with  copper so i was gonna use a mot tesla ozone circuit to drive the motor  i actually got 40 cores 20 5" and 20 6" to expairment with

 

ist



Sorry, im gonna have to disagree here, there is only one way this circuit can work, it can work the first time you make it if you think it through, the relationships have been stated, resonance was stated, now someone just has to do the leg work and link it all together, and its easier to figure out first then build........
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Ren on April 05, 2008, 10:45:05 PM
Yes, I think there is only one way this can work. And it is determined by the coils and their mutual relationship as much as it is determined by configuration. I think the switching side of it is actually supposed to be quite simple.....the frequency just needs to be right.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: innovation_station on April 06, 2008, 05:01:57 PM
@ armma

i guess it all depends on how you read the pattends eh?   if you take them as they are presented then it may infact only work 1 way .....
but if you read between the lines things become clear  ;)

just like O U you got to read between the bs

ist

i really have no desire to make a working unit my turbines are  my dreams ....   perhaps i will call my latest additions to the coil family my electric turbines ;)
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on April 07, 2008, 12:54:36 AM
@all

Here is something very interesting regarding @ACs correction of the Trail #1 shown above.

Well the choke I am using is the secondary of one of my toroid transformers. With this setup I was not getting enough juice off the working circuit to run my relay and have some left over. Without the relay, the voltage on the working circuit would rise very gradually to around 400 volts. But it took considerable time.

So I took the primary of the transformer used as a choke and connected it parallel to the first relay coil.

As soon as I started up the system I got 1450 volts off the working circuit with no load. When I connected the second relay as a  load, it would click away strongly and the voltage would hold at around 26 volts.

Also, my battery voltage went from 12.2 to 11.9 while it was working but as soon as I stopped the system, voltage went back up to 12.2. hehehe.

I think what is happening is as the choke is being loaded, it is also getting an extra punch from the primary and the resulting discharge of the cap is even stronger giving an instantaneous high voltage on the working side.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on April 12, 2008, 05:05:50 AM
@wattsup
Now that you have the circuit correct there are some other neat experiments one can build easily. If you replace the primary/secondary with a full wave rectifier and connect a low turn PM DC motor to this rectifier it can be seen that the series ocillations will power this motor very efficiently. On page one of this thread I posted some scopeshots which show a dampened oscillation starting at 250v, Now consider what we normally do to power a DC motor--- when connected to a battery the current travels through the DC motor once then discharges the battery.The scopeshot I posted shows a dampened oscillation which alternates 10 times before the forces balance, in my rectified DC motor circuit I have this same number of oscillations--- that is the current has moved through the DC motor 10 times longer, diminishing in amplitude with each alternation but flowing none the less. What is very interesting is the fact that the more loaded the DC motor is the longer the oscillations, the longer the oscillations the more work done which verified my thoughts that a highly loaded or stalled motor can act like an inductor thus conserving its energy in an oscillatory circuit. This experiment was based on a something Tesla had mentioned---that is the circuit as posted can be the "working circuit" in the right circumstances.
Another experiment uses the circuit mentioned above but does not load the DC motor persay, a spinner with many heavy washers is attached to the shaft of the DC motor which acts as a flywheel. We now have a way to store energy as inertia which can be easily measured, a few quick impulses into the working circuit will accelerate the motor storing the energy in the flywheel as motion. Once the oscillations have stopped the rapidly spinning motor is switched into a load circuit at which point the motor will act as a generator and power the load. I like this experiment because it shows inertia in action--- the fact that a motor having inertia can act as a generator. The only issue I have with this circuit is that the load is not a resonant load, that is there is no capacitor in the load circuit with which to produce alternating currents. As you progress you will find this is a reaccuring problem, conventional DC and AC are inefficient but many conventional loads require them--- our electronic loads for the most part demand consistent power supplies.
Best Regards
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on April 12, 2008, 03:30:34 PM
@AC

Thanks again for the in. I have a nice 90vdc 1 amp motor that just may be the right match for this. It has good rotary response at even lower voltages. This is the same motor is used to see the reverse current effect. Will try it out.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on April 23, 2008, 08:29:15 PM
@AC or others

Here is a question about your circuit because I think it may tie in very well with what we are doing on the Jack Durban thread regarding the FPTU.

OK, regarding your circuit, where you have put the switch, what if I take a zener diode and a regular diode, connect them in parallel but reverse, so power can go from positive, through the zener diode (but not through the regular diode) to between the choke and primary.

Here is what I am thinking. Let's say my battery is 6 volts. Since the zener diode requires a minimum voltage of lets say 5 volts before it can open. So I apply voltage, the voltage rises to 5 volts and the zener diode closes, making a short circuit. At the short, the flyback from the primary or inductor can travel back through the other standard diode. Since the battery is shorted, the voltage drops to zero again, opening the zener diode, then the voltage rises again closing the zener and making the next short circuit. The idea of having a second diode facing the other way is to provide a path of return to source.

I am trying to find a away to do pulsing without a transistor, mosfet or relay. I think the zener diode may work but wanted to have some comments on the feasibility. because if this can work, I think I would know how the FTPU can get its pulsing action. lol
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: big.lzam on April 24, 2008, 07:49:35 PM
Hi everyone,

I might be repeating this info (the search did not find anything relatively close to this on this site) but this video is impressive. Looks like a working model of Tesla transformer built by a guy from Georgia (exUSSR) about two years ago.

http://rapidshare.com/files/97746300/free-energy.geo.part1.rar.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/97748778/free-energy.geo.part2.rar.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/97751167/free-energy.geo.part3.rar.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/97753249/free-energy.geo.part4.rar.html
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: M@rcel on April 26, 2008, 01:05:59 AM
Hi everyone,

I might be repeating this info (the search did not find anything relatively close to this on this site) but this video is impressive. Looks like a working model of Tesla transformer built by a guy from Georgia (exUSSR) about two years ago.

http://rapidshare.com/files/97746300/free-energy.geo.part1.rar.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/97748778/free-energy.geo.part2.rar.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/97751167/free-energy.geo.part3.rar.html
http://rapidshare.com/files/97753249/free-energy.geo.part4.rar.html

Good find!

I see
tesla coil
tv flyback
battery
spark gap
ss switching
earth battery???? Or perhaps capacitor plate


Can anyone translate?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on April 26, 2008, 11:16:10 PM
@big.lzam

Thanks for the video. It's to bad I can only understand Armenian, French and English but no Russian.

Those radiators are a damn good idea. I wonder what would have happened if they also used some aerial plates and a nice capacitor.

Did you see him showing a document of a Tesla coil.

If anyone can translate this (main parts only), please do and post it on this thread.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: M@rcel on April 26, 2008, 11:44:10 PM
Those radiators are a damn good idea. I wonder what would have happened if they also used some aerial plates and a nice capacitor.

please, tell me more
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on April 27, 2008, 08:39:47 PM
@M@rcel

I was referring to a Tesla Patent No. 685957 - Apparatus for the Utilization of Radiant Energy
I have uploaded a copy of the Patent here;
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get43

The video of the two radiators (made of copper) is showing how the earth, with copper and some water can create electrical power. The Tesla patent shows the same thing but with one plate in the ground and an second plate in the air (aerial plate).

Enjoy.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: M@rcel on April 27, 2008, 08:57:06 PM
That's funny...
You describe some "earth battery", where, in Tesla's patent", I would expect a capacitor with one plate in the ground and the other one up in the air.

Copper in a moist soil?? Would oxidize fast, I think
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on April 27, 2008, 10:41:36 PM
@marcel

Ive had copper pipes in the ground all winter.. no apparent oxidation. As well We've been replicatign the nathan stubblefield earth battery over in my thread and havent wittnessed those type of degradations.  Just wanted to thro in a second opinion  ;) :)
                                                                                                             joe
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: M@rcel on April 27, 2008, 10:47:38 PM
@marcel

Ive had copper pipes in the ground all winter.. no apparent oxidation. As well We've been replicatign the nathan stubblefield earth battery over in my thread and havent wittnessed those type of degradations.  Just wanted to thro in a second opinion  ;) :)
                                                                                                             joe
thank you for correcting me (seriously!)
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: innovation_station on April 29, 2008, 01:15:38 PM
@M@rcel

I was referring to a Tesla Patent No. 685957 - Apparatus for the Utilization of Radiant Energy
I have uploaded a copy of the Patent here;
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?action=tpmod;dl=get43

The video of the two radiators (made of copper) is showing how the earth, with copper and some water can create electrical power. The Tesla patent shows the same thing but with one plate in the ground and an second plate in the air (aerial plate).

Enjoy.

hey guys do we not have to transmit in ordor to recieve??

ist
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Localjoe on April 29, 2008, 10:04:09 PM
@IS

Sometign about an electrically large antenna with small physicall dimensions.. I seem to recall.
                                                                                                            Joe
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: sm0ky2 on April 30, 2008, 04:16:23 AM
someone questioned above how a single wire could be a "capacitor", well, in fact it is.
a wire, being less than a superconductor - has some degree of capacitance (just a very low "c" value, and the diaelectric has an extremely low tolerance). but for all intensive purposes it has the same function as any other capacitor. The longer the wire (or thicker the single plate), the more this effect is prevalent.

This could not be used with anything but a very high freq., because the wire "breaks down" very quickly, and conducts the charge across itself.

This may seem "petty" and insignificant with respect to a low frequency signal, but mathematically, a single copper wire "could be" used as an HF cap. - though to what extent, im am not sure.....
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on July 09, 2008, 06:28:59 AM
@all

Well since I am now working on ottos yoke coil and am waiting for some 24 awg wire, I decided also that since I am now getting the hang of using these damn transistors and mosfets, I made a replication of ACs circuit. lol

Using an IRF9540 (p-channel type) with the source on the positive side and the drain going between the choke coil and the transformer, I managed to produce on the secondary an average of 5-6 volts while lighting a 12 volts light. My power supply was set at 6 volts and it was drawing .01 amps. Best results were when pulsing between 65 and 165 hz. Higher frequency pulses did not produce any better results even when changing the capacitor value.

I tried to replicate my Erfinders Circuit but could not figure out how to do it with transistors since I would have to replicate a DPDT relay. I'll have to work at this for a while.

I want to also try something using a bifilar coil. We know that a bifilar coil will neutralize the magnetic field. So what if you put a transistor only on one of the coils. By leaving one of the coils always energized and by only pulsing the other coil, at pulse on, the field would be canceled, at pulse off the field would be energized. So you can actually do this pulsing at half the amperage since you are only working on one of the coils. I put a small diagram below. I wonder if this could be looped in a way.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: clone477 on September 07, 2008, 08:18:19 AM
What happed to ERfinder and everyone else.  This was a good thread,  I dont think there was ever a final answer from erfinder as to what the best this to do with the secondary charged capacitor/bifilar coil??  Could this be used to fire back into the low induction primary circuit.  It be nice to hear from you guys and finilizing this subject.  Fern
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on September 09, 2008, 12:48:46 AM
those who were involved, still are.

What must be understood is that what was being demonstrated was to help people understand the workings of a certain kind of system in a new light. The main people involved (not the people trying to replicate) were and are much further in development of systems lightyears beyond what was shown here. It would be awesome if people did continue this thread, unfortunately the ones in the know, dont have infinite time to proad people along and generate interest.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: hydrocontrol on September 09, 2008, 01:14:45 AM
What happed to ERfinder and everyone else.  This was a good thread,  I dont think there was ever a final answer from erfinder as to what the best this to do with the secondary charged capacitor/bifilar coil??  Could this be used to fire back into the low induction primary circuit.  It be nice to hear from you guys and finilizing this subject.  Fern

ERfinder appears to be busy making a self running magnetic motor.  ;D ;D
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=7tdWkn1m-4w

I believe the plans for this magnetic motor just got released in this thread.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5501.msg125460.html#msg125460

It would be nice if this was the 'real deal'.   :-\  Maybe CLaNZeR will try another replication based on these new plans.

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on September 09, 2008, 02:45:58 AM
that's not the same Erfinder, the name is actually a word that means inventor.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on September 09, 2008, 02:59:13 AM
@hydrocontrol

I don't think that video is from Erfinder. If I am not mistaken, the word Erfinder means inventor and is widely used in German.

As for this thread, I was thinking of this also, to get it going again.

In my experiments, I use the @allcanadian circuit and the Erfinder circuit as a standard methods. I have done so many experiments and now it is to the point where even before testing a coil, I can already know the result and testing is just confirming. This is because I am always using these two tests as a base, before doing other methods and this gives me a standard point of comparison.

I am tired of using relays and solid states to pulse. Granted pulsing is not the same when you do it a low speed compared to high speed, but the higher speeds are only possible with SS components that just hate anything that has to do with flyback. lol Unless I find a pulsing system that is crystal based or some other materials that don't just fiz out when things start getting interesting.

So I am going to work out a system that will function at low pulses, more induction, more energy movement,  more flyback return but at a slower rate. More like a pendulum and less like a bullet. Newman does it a slow speeds. Many of Teslas patents are at slow speeds.

Anyways, I found a  nice small dc motor that was all pre-mounted on a small gear box and already had a large wheel. So I made some grooves in the wheel and put a contact on it and I can now get low speed pulses without a relay or SS hassles. So more fun is ahead.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: clone477 on September 09, 2008, 03:16:30 AM
@hydrocontrol

I don't think that video is from Erfinder. If I am not mistaken, the word Erfinder means inventor and is widely used in German.

As for this thread, I was thinking of this also, to get it going again.

In my experiments, I use the @allcanadian circuit and the Erfinder circuit as a standard methods. I have done so many experiments and now it is to the point where even before testing a coil, I can already know the result and testing is just confirming. This is because I am always using these two tests as a base, before doing other methods and this gives me a standard point of comparison.

I am tired of using relays and solid states to pulse. Granted pulsing is not the same when you do it a low speed compared to high speed, but the higher speeds are only possible with SS components that just hate anything that has to do with flyback. lol Unless I find a pulsing system that is crystal based or some other materials that don't just fiz out when things start getting interesting.

So I am going to work out a system that will function at low pulses, more induction, more energy movement,  more flyback return but at a slower rate. More like a pendulum and less like a bullet. Newman does it a slow speeds. Many of Teslas patents are at slow speeds.

Anyways, I found a  nice small dc motor that was all pre-mounted on a small gear box and already had a large wheel. So I made some grooves in the wheel and put a contact on it and I can now get low speed pulses without a relay or SS hassles. So more fun is ahead.

I though I would post here also...

Wattsup, its nice to see you still interested in this project.  Yesterday I spend 6 hours reading through all 9 pages to fully understand.  I am now ready to start building.  I want to get this working, and I have a Chevrolet Colorado that is converted to electric.  And it just so happens it has a series wound DC motor as the drive motor.  I want to eventually apply this to that.  Tesla never charged batteries with these circuits as far as I can tell, but he always ran motors or light or loads, ect.  I think there has to be a way to feedback that secondary capacitor discharge to feed the motor.  Have you tried a bifilar to replace the secondary and capacitor??  Talk to you later man.  Fern
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: clone477 on September 10, 2008, 06:40:08 AM
I wanted to shine some light on this project as I havent slept much the last week, because of all the reading Ive done over the patents and the Colorado Spring Notes.  Id appriciate some feedback Erfinder or the others who were actively involved.  I have totally grasped the theory behind the operation of the ozone patents and the others that erfinder has listed for referance.  A couple important things I learned....

1.  As Erfinder has stated, The primary capacitor has to be small, he says that if we were relying on the source voltage to charge the capacitor then we would need a larger capacitor.  But since we are using the inductive collapse of the windings(and/or choking coil), a smaller and inexpensive one will work fine.

2.  He also says that choking coils may be omitted(which we know) if there is sufficent inductance in the field windings of the motor.  He continues that...."So to, the nessesity of a condenser, is avoided when the circuit itself possess sufficient capacitance to accomplish the desirded result"  He is talking about a bifilar winding which ERfinder also mention.  But I belive Tesla was referring to the primary winding and condenser, and/or the secondary winding and condenser.

3. In patent 568178, He say in order to charge and discharge the primary winding/cap MOST EFFECTIVELY, the frequency of the impressed impulses(by the speed of the motor or number of make and breaks on the controler) should have a definite related to the vibration of the circiut it self(tank circuit and impulse speed must be the same frequency or a harmonic of).  He continues..."ANY DEPARTURE FROM THIS CONDITION IN A DECRESSED OUTPUT"
He says the best way to do this is to adjust the speed of the motor.

4.  Tesla Quote..."IN ORDER TO SECURE THE GREATEST EFFIECENCY,  IT IS ESSENTIAL THAT THE CIRCUITS SHOULD BE APPROXIMATELY IN RESONANCE"
He continues..." MOREOVER, IN ORDER TO OBTAIN THE GREATEST OUTPUT FROM THIS MACHINE AND ITS KIND, IT IS DESIRED TO OBTAIN THE HIGHEST FREQUENCY POSSIBLE"

5.  Patent 577670, shows the same setup as the double rely system that ERfinder has shown everyone. 


Something really confuses me.  After reading the Ozone patent 100 times, I read something interesting under what he claim is the purpose of the invention....

"A device for producing ozone comprising in combination, surfaces between which an electrical discharge takes place, a transformer for producing the potential necessary for such discharge, a condenser in the primary circuit 6o of the transformer, a charging-circuit, means for charging the condenser by such circuit and discharging it through the primary of the transformer, a motor operated by the charging-circuit, and a device operated thereby 65 for maintaining a current of air between the discharge-surfaces, as set forth..."
 
He states that one of the purposes is to run the motor by the charging circuit??  Does this mean that the charging circuit(motor field coils) runs the motor which is obvious, or does he mean that the output from the secondary is ment to be feedback to run the motor, making it more efficient as I think ERfind also mentioned??

Lastly Id like for people to read Tesla Colorado Spring Notes where he played with regenerative circuits in Aug I believe.  Here is a link to one of the recievers....

 http://www.teslasociety.com/teslarec.pdf

That is a feedback regenerative circuit, the basis of he radiant energy collector, and to me, that circuit looks identical to the ozone patent, minus the senitive device "A".  I dont know what he means by that senitive device.  Anyways to me this show that maybe we should be feeding back the bifilar secondary of the ozone circuit to somewhere in the charging circuit, maybe across the primary.  I have not been able to figure out how this would work though to increase efficency of the motor??  I know it will give a stronger output on the secondary if all is timed correctly.

ERFINDER this is where I couold use your superior knowledge.  Pleased tune in and tell me if I got anything right.  And I appreciate you bringing this patent to life for me. 

Well its getting late, Im going blind and Im sure my spelling is geting real bad.  So goodnight everyone.  Fern ;D
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wings on September 10, 2008, 09:46:53 AM
water pump TEP technology


http://jlnlabs.online.fr/hep/index.htm

wings
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on September 11, 2008, 04:27:56 AM
@clone477
Quote
1.  As Erfinder has stated, The primary capacitor has to be small, he says that if we were relying on the source voltage to charge the capacitor then we would need a larger capacitor.  But since we are using the inductive collapse of the windings(and/or choking coil), a smaller and inexpensive one will work fine.
The inductive discharge potential (voltage) is a function of the resistance to the discharge, a smaller condenser will charge faster than a large one thus the resistance rises faster and a greater potential develops.

Quote
2.  He also says that choking coils may be omitted(which we know) if there is sufficent inductance in the field windings of the motor.  He continues that...."So to, the nessesity of a condenser, is avoided when the circuit itself possess sufficient capacitance to accomplish the desirded result"  He is talking about a bifilar winding which ERfinder also mention.  But I belive Tesla was referring to the primary winding and condenser, and/or the secondary winding and condenser.
What is the desired result? to charge a capacitance to a high potential
What is a capacitor? a device which stores energy in the form of a electrostatic field, the higher the potential the less surface area reqired to store a given amount of energy. A capacitor could be seen as a resilient media which when disturbed has the ability to form oscillations within itself, the properties of these oscillations effecting the circuit as a whole.

Quote
3. In patent 568178, He say in order to charge and discharge the primary winding/cap MOST EFFECTIVELY, the frequency of the impressed impulses(by the speed of the motor or number of make and breaks on the controler) should have a definite related to the vibration of the circiut it self(tank circuit and impulse speed must be the same frequency or a harmonic of).  He continues..."ANY DEPARTURE FROM THIS CONDITION IN A DECRESSED OUTPUT"
He says the best way to do this is to adjust the speed of the motor.
We can equate this with pushing a swing, there is one exact moment and only one where the applied energy impulse (the push) will be "most" effective.

Quote
4.  Tesla Quote..."IN ORDER TO SECURE THE GREATEST EFFIECENCY,  IT IS ESSENTIAL THAT THE CIRCUITS SHOULD BE APPROXIMATELY IN RESONANCE"
He continues..." MOREOVER, IN ORDER TO OBTAIN THE GREATEST OUTPUT FROM THIS MACHINE AND ITS KIND, IT IS DESIRED TO OBTAIN THE HIGHEST FREQUENCY POSSIBLE"
We know from the swing example why resonance is important, but why the highest frequency possible? An EE might tell you the capacitive reactance decreases with a rising frequency as the inductive reactance increases so a capacitance, whatever the capacitance may be in relation to the circuit, has a greater efficiency at higher frequencies. So here we could assume the goal is to increase the efficiency of any reactions concerning a capacitance in any form this capacitance may take, be it capacitance of any two or more conductors seperated by a distance with air inbetween them, the capacitance between any two or more conductors seperated by an insulator/dielectric of some sort or any media in which a potential difference exists between them. But why? two words---electrostatic induction.

Quote
5.  Patent 577670, shows the same setup as the double rely system that ERfinder has shown everyone.

You will find many of Teslas patents have the same theme, the question is why? I believe these patents were filed for one simple reason, to provide a record of Teslas achievements for those who are ready to understand the true nature of energy beyond the scope of what any textbook could possibly tell us. If some intellectual tells you the patents purpose is obvious, ask him why nobody can seem to duplicate it, ask him why nobody can produce results even remotely close to what Tesla claimed and demonstrated before many people of impecable character. When you understand this patent 568177, the purpose and you can replicate it you will understand many things not found in any textbook--anywhere.
Best Regards
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: gotoluc on September 13, 2008, 01:51:57 AM
@allcanadian and everyone,

Sorry for the intrusion but I found an interesting circuit effect today and started a topic in the Tesla section to share it and would like all your help to see if it's a real and useful effect. Please have a look and post your comments there.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5542.0/topicseen.html

Thanks

Luc
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on September 13, 2008, 08:57:32 AM
@GUYS

I DON'T KNOW WHAT IS GOING ON WITH WHAT I JUST DID BUT.....HERE GOES...

SHIT, I AM SURE THIS IS NOT NORMAL.

OK, I have taken the time to let this circuit run for the last 4 hours.

I set-up my new pulser wheel with one of my toroidal transformers. Since my switch is a SPDT, I used it to simply take the 24 volts from my two batteries and pulse them alternatively into the transformer, then pass the secondary through a diode to my biggest holding capacitor, then through another diode back to the positive of the battery. I also put a 120vac 100w light bulb parallel to the cap.

I pressed theo start button and the wheel turned for about 10 seconds and voltage went up to 68 volts on the cap. I then switched the light bulb on and voltage went down to around 25 volts. I then switched the start button to off and stopped the wheel. But it has been that way for four hours now and voltage on the battery had not gone down. I know for a fact that my system never did this before. The light is lit as shown below and it is hot to the touch. You cannot hold it for more then a second.

When I stopped the system, the wheel was pushing in the switch so the NO is connected to Common. Just leaving it alone like this and I cannot figure out why the battery voltage is not going down or at least, why. Plus the start button is at the off position. Shit.

I wanted to put up this diagram to freeze this because I will make a few changes to see what's going on and wanted to make sure I could re-do this one anytime.

My voltage on the batteries is now 32.5vdc.

If you have a dual primary/dual secondary toroidal transformer, please try this, even if you do not have the pulsing, pulse by hand and different caps. Someone, please try this easy set-up. From what I said above, it is obvious that certain parts of the circuit are not even being used and this is what I will do next is to remove those parts and see whats happens.

This is freaky.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on September 13, 2008, 05:05:37 PM

4.  Tesla Quote..."IN ORDER TO SECURE THE GREATEST EFFIECENCY,  IT IS ESSENTIAL THAT THE CIRCUITS SHOULD BE APPROXIMATELY IN RESONANCE"
He continues..." MOREOVER, IN ORDER TO OBTAIN THE GREATEST OUTPUT FROM THIS MACHINE AND ITS KIND, IT IS DESIRED TO OBTAIN THE HIGHEST FREQUENCY POSSIBLE"


There are two explanations for this statement:

The first is that the voltage in the secondary of an air-core transformer is related to the frequency in the primary:

2Pi X Frequency X mutual inductance X current in primary = voltage in secondary

So, The higher the frequency, the higher the voltage - of course there are other considerations.  The mutual inductance is where the coupling factor comes into play.

--------------------------

The second explanation is this comment that Tesla made in regard to the discharge of a condenser:

Quote
Counsel

I understood a little while ago when you made the statement of using several thousand horsepower put into a condenser, you could take out of the condenser a million horsepower.  I wondered if you got the same condition with this machine.

Tesla

Yes; I charged the condenser with 40,000 volts.  When it was charged full, I discharged it suddenly, through a short circuit which gave me a very rapid rate of oscillation.  Let us suppose that I had stored in the condenser 10 watts.  Then, for such a wave there is a flux of energy of (4 x 104)^2, and this is multiplied by the frequency of 100,000.  You see, it may go into thousands or millions of horsepower.  
Counsel

What I wanted to get at was, did that depend upon the suddenness of the discharge?

Tesla

Yes.  It is merely the electrical analogue of a pile driver or a hammer.  You accumulate energy through a long distance and then you deliver it with a tremendous suddenness.  The distance through which the mass moves is small—the pressure immense.

Counsel

Did you find that that was the best condition for transmitting energy without the use of wire?

Tesla

No, I did not use that method when I was transmitting energy.  I used it only in the production of those freaks for which I have been called a magician.  If I had used merely undamped waves, I would have been an ordinary electrician like everybody else.


-------------------------

I'd sure like to know how the (4 x 104)^2 was derived.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: sparks on September 13, 2008, 07:42:29 PM
@Grumpy

  is that 40,000  squared   - (4times10to the fourth)squared times the frequency.
Tesla states in this formula that the wattage stored in the capacitor is in the form of space charge or aether charge and is a massless phenomenon.    No amperage investment here resulting in inertial leakage of the power.  Just space stressing.  I believe the capacitor referred to was his bifilar coil one.  The impedance of this coil resulting in capacitance instead of loss. 

@wattsup

     It could be that your contact is arcing.  This results in highfrequency pulsing of the circuit.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on September 13, 2008, 07:59:39 PM
Sparks,

No, thats (4 x 104) squared.  He does not say how 10 watts and 40,000 volts equates to this equation.

Looking at the image of the patent and the test with it.  It appears that the two controllers are synchronous, but do not have the same break rate.  The drawing shows that the motor controller "E" has 4 times as many sections as the circuit controller "H".  I believe I said initially that the two controllers alternated - I now retract this comment.  I believe now that the two are synchronous and that "E" and "H" are activated at a rate of 4:1 respectively.  After all - Tesla use different commutators for a reason.

If anyone has results that indicate otherwise - please share them.

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: gyulasun on September 14, 2008, 12:33:51 AM

No, thats (4 x 104) squared.  He does not say how 10 watts and 40,000 volts equates to this equation.


Hi Grumpy,

I attached a copy of some part of page 66 from CSN where Tesla used voltage squared times frequency for estimating the power taken out from a capacitor so I guess the result of 40,0002 x 200,000 should give the rough approximation for the power taken out from a capacitor at the 100,000Hz frequency rate.  (In the example of that page Tesla used 300 as the frequency multiplier for 150 cycles/seconds in the equation, this is why I wrote 200,000 instead of the 100,000Hz)

I think from the 10W he mentioned as the initially stored energy in his capacitor (and in fact it is 10J or 10Ws), and the 40,000V we can calculate the value of the that capacitor, this comes out as 12.5nF.  Now if we substitute this into the right hand side of his equation, we get 2,000,000 W. This amount of power could come out for a time duration of 1/100000 sec from this 12.5nF capacitor which initially stored 10J energy in the form of 40,000V and we suddenly discharged it for that tiny time duration.

Hope I did not make mistakes... :)

Member Sparks also wrote about the voltage squared frequency and I can only agree with him.

EDIT  I think I would rather use 100,000 for the frequency instead of the 200,000 in the equation. Then the received output from the 12.5nF capacitor is 1,000,000 W during the 1/100000 sec time duration. This way the initial 10Ws stored in the cap can remain valid.


rgds,  Gyula
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: sparks on September 14, 2008, 01:09:56 AM
gyulason,

    Tesla state that there is horsepower gain.  The discharge of the capacitor is done so that there is an oscillation of energy.  Each oscillation resulting in the charge and discharge of the capacitor.  How he measured this horsepower is somewhat of a mystery.  Perhaps a high frequency transformer in the lines between the cap and the short bar.  The primary in series with the tank and the secondary driving a secondary load?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: gyulasun on September 14, 2008, 11:11:12 AM
Hi Sparks,

I apologize but would you show me a link or refer to a text where Tesla states horsepower gain? I mainly agree with what you mentioning but I cannot grasp where a gain could come from.

Thanks,  Gyula
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: clone477 on September 17, 2008, 03:05:43 PM
I had a question about this...
I always was under the impression that when the primary capacitor was charged, and the cvontroller closes, the circuit becomes a parellel tank circuit between the primary of the transformer and the primary cap.  Thats why I could never understand how this would make a effiecent motor.  But when you say it is a series LC circuit it then makes perfect sense how it would work.  It looks like to me that this can be either a parellel or series LC circuit.  Series being most benificial to us.  Does the series circuit take over instead of the parellel circuit??  This is the last part that is really confusing me.  Thanks guys


Have another look, and then another, and another.....The fly back as you call it does not go through the controller to the capacitor!  This is impossible!  The controller closes and current from the source is supplied to the circuits of high self-induction, and low self-induction.  The switch then opens, and the current supplying the motor (high self-induction circuit) is interrupted, this causes the motor coils to produce the discharge current (fly back also known as inductive kick), let us not forget the switch is open, and as such the developed discharge current cannot flow through the controller, as in this instant the controller is not offering a conductive path! 

Coils D, and F of motor C are connected in series with primary M via brush G of circuit controller H.  Primary M is connected in series with one leg of capacitor L.  What we have here is a series resonant circuit, where the large inductance and the capacitor are the main components and the primary is a very small addition to the circuits resistance.  This is the discharge path! In truth when the field of the high self-induction circuit collapses, the potential of the primary, and capacitor are raised at the same time as the motor coils are raised,  owing to their relation to the high self-induction circuit!   

There is much more to it then that, however that is the general idea.  The secondary, is the gateway into the working circuit!  From the secondary on we are dealing with a different quality of electricity, from this point on resonance truly is king, from this point on one must comprehend the role of self-inductance, and understand how and why it is at times needed, and at others not wanted in the circuit.  Some would say that I am not qualified to make such statements, I only have one thing to say to those individuals... :-*...

The capacitor connected to the secondary is not just any old capacitor, it is selected specifically for its ability to cancel the self-induction of the secondary.  With self-induction out of the way the only opposition to current flow is ohmic resistance!  This capacitor is charged and discharged abruptly into the primary of a second transformer, the load is connected to this transformers secondary.

Its all in the patents friends!  Review them.  Know them!


Regards
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on September 17, 2008, 10:52:43 PM
@all

If there are any coil freaks out there, check out this ebay seller's store.

http://showcase.inkfrog.com/wowsurplus/?page=5&type=0&from=ebay&search_param=&search_key=&page=0

I just bought a nice dc pulse generator and am  looking to buy a second one. Some can go as really high in the mhz.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: clone477 on September 18, 2008, 03:12:45 AM
Ive been playing with the circuit guys and made some discoveries.  I used a automotive ignition coil for primary and secondary, and it works well.  On the out put of the secondary I used a adjustable spark tester used in automotive.  I put my volt meter on my postive and negitive terminals of my battery.  With the spark tester adjusted I was able to feed 2000volt pulses back to the battery.  So this circuit for sure provides energy from the secondary to be used, runs an electric motor, and lastly recharges the source/powers the motor.  This has all been comfirmed, Thanks for all for bringing this circuit to light, Tesla was truely a genious.  Fern
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on September 18, 2008, 04:25:40 AM
@wattsup
Quote
I set-up my new pulser wheel with one of my toroidal transformers. Since my switch is a SPDT, I used it to simply take the 24 volts from my two batteries and pulse them alternatively into the transformer, then pass the secondary through a diode to my biggest holding capacitor, then through another diode back to the positive of the battery. I also put a 120vac 100w light bulb parallel to the cap.
I pressed theo start button and the wheel turned for about 10 seconds and voltage went up to 68 volts on the cap. I then switched the light bulb on and voltage went down to around 25 volts. I then switched the start button to off and stopped the wheel. But it has been that way for four hours now and voltage on the battery had not gone down. I know for a fact that my system never did this before. The light is lit as shown below and it is hot to the touch. You cannot hold it for more then a second.
When I stopped the system, the wheel was pushing in the switch so the NO is connected to Common. Just leaving it alone like this and I cannot figure out why the battery voltage is not going down or at least, why. Plus the start button is at the off position. Shit.

Hey, did you figure out what was going on in your circuit?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: sparks on September 18, 2008, 02:12:58 PM
       When testing electric motor field coils we use a highfrequency generator.  This increases the turn to turn voltage potential just like Tesla demonstrates in his coil capacitor. Any insulation problems betweem turns results in a short and burns the bad coil.  Increase in voltage as a result of increase in frequency.  Now if this coil was geometrically configured like Tesla's bifilar pancake the whole surface area of the copper becomes a capacitor whose plates are the bifilar element turns, and air the electrolyte.  The advantage to this capacitor is that it charges as a consequence of the through current on a pulse from the oscillator.  Something like shorting a capacitor and still having it charge.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on September 18, 2008, 03:45:38 PM
@AC and @gotoluc (thanks gotoluc for your PM)

OK I found there was one wire I did not see with all the wires on the bench, that went directly form the negative of the battery to the negative side of the capacitor. The voltage started going down on the battery about 6  hours after I started and by the next morning was down to 22 volts off the two batteries.

This is what caused the light to light but I still cannot explain why the voltage went down so slowly. I did retry this time, recharge the batteries and just put the light directly on the batteries. The light lit the same way but voltage went down very quickly. I will have to do some more study on this plus I am making plans to add some more induction off the SPDP switch.  I want more punch at each pulse.

The switching wheel is working great. I will add another switch onto the wheel to increase pulse rates or to pulse another part of the circuit.

I do not know if there is anything yet to jump up. I may have jumped to fast but geez, when you see something so out of the ordinary, then you look and look and cannot explain, why.

@clone477

Good work. I know I am sometimes a pain in the ass when others post their devices and I ask them to try something. It is because you already have the setup in place and learning more on it is the name of the game. I asked @Peterae to try something on another thread with his spherics coil and will ask you something also.

Simply, if you have any type of coil, can you position it around or above the spark gap and put a volt meter on it, or add a diode and a cap to the coil and put a voltmeter on the cap. I would like to know if the spark gap itself, if inside a coil, will impart energy to the coil and hence increase the voltage inside the capacitor. If you have different types of coils, horizontal wound, toroidal or whatever, you can then try them to see the differences. This would be isolated from your present circuit but there may be some untapped energy around the spark.

@poynt99

Thanks for your PMs and thanks for your work. Maybe put a permanent link to it in your signature so people will see it easily.

I have been working more hours these days but have started reading your doc. I may not be the best person to comment on it. Pulsing 300vdc is not an easy task. I know you have great interest in the spherics design but I still do not understand why there is so much to do with this. I cannot see any link to the SM TPU. From what I can tell, the spherics design itself has some major flaws. In a nutshell, guys are not realizing that the field only happens one way and you have to be flexible enough to find the best directionality of the field. Some thoughts on this are;

- The bottom coils should be on pivots that can enable you to change the coil angle.
- The bottom coils are right angled at a small incline, but they should also be tilted off the right angle by 15-20 degrees right if you want the field to move left, or tilted left if you want the field to move right.
- Having the bottom coils at a right angle will send the north (or south) polarity over the toroid but in two directions, left and right, and this will create a stationary condition, this is why you will need to tilt them so only one side of the field hits the toroid in one direction.
- I would say the toroid itself has to have at least 26-29 awg wire or thinner.
- The toroid should be wound one layer, then covered with two layers of a thin paper ribbon, then another layer, then cover with paper, then another layer and so on. All layers connected in parallel to each other wound in the same direction. This layering will permit the coil to take up a 3 dimensional space for the top and bottom coil fields to permeate without creating adverse skin effects. Also to prevent deflection, each additional wind could be wound courser then the previous wind so the outer most wind will not act as a shield as it gets energized. In water treatment, we call this a depth type filter. Hey you could call it a toroidal depth ether sieve.

This is why I am wondering why guys are building tripods, etc. Just make the coils and place them on any type of non magnetic support to be able to change the coil angles. It seems rather presumptuous that guys would expect the field to react in such a rigid manner as to make everything so permanent, then if they do not see the results, not realizing they could be only a few angles away from success. That would be a pity indeed.

But the main drawback of the spherics design will still be the fact that only 20-30% of the energy consumed by the coils will actually take part in a directed flux to conversion. The remaining energy will just be dissipated into space. Now maybe, just maybe, this dissipation will create an NMR rotating attraction field to attract ether energy into the device, I cannot say, but it is nice to think about.

The north and south polarities must convince the carrier to go in the right direction.

Then the fun would start.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on September 18, 2008, 09:34:47 PM
@wattsup
Quote
OK I found there was one wire I did not see with all the wires on the bench, that went directly form the negative of the battery to the negative side of the capacitor. The voltage started going down on the battery about 6  hours after I started and by the next morning was down to 22 volts off the two batteries.
LOL, I was wondering if this was the case. This same thing has happened to me a few times and then I traced the circuit and still could not figure it out. Finally I started pulling wires one at a time until the culprit was found.
Best Regards
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: barbosi on September 20, 2008, 02:36:13 AM
1. Now, if there was just that missed wire then the schematic is like in fig.1 (added the blue wire).

2. Because the switch was OFF the equivalent schematic is like in fig.2.

3. Since apparently the batteries are not needed any more, we may consider these were needed just to start the process and [after they are recharged], we can take them out from the schematic like in fig.3

4. Only for cleaning purposes we can reconsider fig.3 going into fig.4.

And now let's recap: from the original schematic was omitted the blue wire and after an initial kick were it was used the battery, the working circuit is as in fig.4.
According the accepted electricity science, we can agree it still not makes aby sense. And out of question to chalenge anyone's statement here. Just pointing out that we may drop this too soon without understanding the whole. Or maybe I'm missing something...?...

Regards.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: clone477 on September 21, 2008, 05:41:09 AM
Wattsup,
I have tried putting a coil around the spark gap I was using, and sure enough there was a huge spike of voltage from the coil.  Im at the limit of my meter at this point, I cant read any higher than 100volts.  The high voltage probes I see on Ebay, will they work with any meter, and is that the  best way for me to read these high voltages?? 

I have tried using a commutator from a motor as the switching device.  I simply cut off from the windings back, and soldered the wires of each section of commutators 180 degrees to the other commutator.  I was not geeting the same output on my sparkgap??  So I figured maybe the brushes were wider than one commutator strip, and therefore the circuit was never getting shut off for the correct 50%-50% duty cycle.  So I decided to double up the commutator bars.  I soldered two for ON, and the next two for OFF.  This would give me less cycles per revolution.  This did not seem to work well either, my spark gap was not arking.    BUT as soon as a disconnected the commutator, and just tapped the two connects with my test lead, my spark gap would fire no problem.  So for some reason I dont understand, that idea did not work for me as much as I thought it should of.

So I have now build this for the controller to attach to my motor.  I have used two ABS reluctor rings from a car with ABS brakes.  There are perfectly spaced, and will provide a 50% off on cycle.  Also there are 54 teeth on the one that is not modified, and on the other I cut off every other tooth, so I would have 27. Spinning this in my electric drill at certain speeds, probably lower harmonic of the discharge circuit, I am able to have the spark gap fire almost conitually.  Tomarrow I plan on filling all the gaps of the rings with fiberglass resin, the bring the ring to my macinist to have a perfectly smooth serface for my brushed to run along.  Here are some pictures.

I have also ordered flat copper strapping to wind my primary of my transformer.  I want to get this all tuned and in resonance.  Because if Im getting this output with the whole system not even tuned, I cant imagine what it would produced tuned. 

After my primary inductance is determined, then I can figure out how many RPM's the motor will have to spin, the size of my primary cap, and finally the 1/4 wave and capacitance of my secondary.  Once this is work, I plan on building a Tesla's bifiar coil for the secondary to combine the cap and windings. 

Is there any problem at all feeding this HV and HF back to our source/batteries??  Does this damage the batteries, should be downconvert this for that purpose??  With the system running there are huge spikes going back to the battery, I know this from hooking my volt meter and osiliscope to the battery.  So I know the source is being feed back power while the whole system is running.  I still havent decided what to do with the seconday out, I know Tesla ran motors, lights, ect.  But ideally I would like to have this go back to the source, for my electric car application it would put use to al that extra output. 
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: clone477 on September 21, 2008, 05:47:08 AM
Had to resize the pics....
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on September 21, 2008, 06:25:30 PM
@clone477

Regarding your commutator, I have posted a photo here on one I made and it works when coupled to another motor, but I think the choice of the commutator size is relative to the actual specs of the motor you are taking it from, hence the overall resistance of the commutator and the brush wires. This particular motor is pretty robust 90vdc-6000 rpm. There is no amperage rating or hp rating on it but I would easily give it  2 amps rating, easy, so at least this commutator can pass a good 180 watts without creating any undue resistance. The photo is here;
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5144.msg119281.html#msg119281

Regarding the coil around the spark gap, this is great news because it touches upon something I posted on another thread regarding producing RE and having is spin inside a dual layer coil. lol I will have to try it myself to see.

But in general, if you look higher up on this thread page, I put a photo of a set-up using my pulse wheel, photo PW-Test2-Cb.jpg, and you will see behind the volt meter showing 25.46 vdc, the meter is leaning on a big capacitor that is 1200 volts 88mf that I bought on ebay for 20 bucks. This is the capacitor I always use as an energy grabbing tank by simply passing the output positive through a diode then to the capacitor. This will enable you to see a regulated voltage rise from your spikes.

So imagine if the primary/secondary is producing output and you can also add any collected output from the spark gap all this will add to the overall output. Hmmmmm. Also, a coil on the spark gap could be a feedback signal to reset a pulsing circuit or fed back into the primary of the spark gap producing coil itself as a loop.

@barbosi

Thanks for all those diagram mods.

I finally figured out that there was another wire going from the battery positive side to the capacitor positive, hence the lamp was connected direct to the the battery and parallel to the capacitor and the rest of the circuit.

But get this. I recharged my two batteries back up to a total of 34 volts dc. I removed everything from the battery terminals and connected the lamp directly to the battery. The battery voltage started going down about .1 volts every 12-15 seconds, the lamp was warm to the touch as before. But before, when the circuit was connected (and also add a wire from battery positive to capacitor) the voltage stayed there for hours. This is surely something very weird and this was why I wanted to post the diagram. But then I did not realize those two wires were there. Geez.

I know from experience that the diode from the secondary coils is a very high voltage one at is does leak backwards since I have seen voltage drop off my cap tank, but I cannot figure out why this effect is happenning. I wil have to do some more tests with this.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: clone477 on September 23, 2008, 06:27:42 AM
Wattsup and all,
After you pointing out your thread about using an armature for the controller, it did seem like a much better idea, it is deisned to tranfer electricity.  So I made another controller out of the same motor I am using, an extra one of course.  What I did was removed the commutator from the spare motor, and pressed it on my original motor that is powered by the batteries.  Then my driving motor and controller are all on the same shaft.  Nice and compact.  I will attach pics.  My problem is that it heats up very quick while operating.   Maybe 2 minutes worth of run time, thats not right.  Second, it drains the batter quickly. 

I have a couple things I wanted to ask,

1. My motor is a 120volt AC motor, but have the same wiring configuration as Teslas Ozone patent, is this a problem if I run it at 120VDC???  I didnt think so??

2.  In the oringal motor before disassembly, it had a bearing on one side and a bushing on the other.  Since I essencialy attached two motors together, I used both bushing supports and did not use the bearings to support the shafts, maybe causing to much friction??

3.  My controller commutator is turning black, from overheating, and the whole room begins to smell after 1/2hour of testing, could it be drawing to much current, Maybe to much resistance from the choking coil??  I didnt measure to check??

4.  Lastly the controller when running at 120volts worth of DC batteries, spins very quickly(which is normal with the higher voltage) but arcs very bad,  you see lines of electricity around the controller(commuator), is this normal. 


I thought this setup was perfect, but it does not work good.  I going to try this once more using this motor setup.  Ill go buy two more motors tomarrow, and instead of disassembling them all, I will just thread the end shafts and join them with a extended nut.  This way I could eliminate all the bearsin causing excess friction. 

I trulely think a relay beging fed by a reluctor rind and sensor is the best way to do this, it makes a good contact everytime.  I dont know at this point??  Any suggestions from anyone.  Any suggestion on how to make a good working model, I mean wi already know Tesla's Ozone Patent works great.

Thanks guys Fern
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on September 23, 2008, 07:17:55 AM
Wattsup and all,
After you pointing out your thread about using an armature for the controller, it did seem like a much better idea, it is deisned to tranfer electricity.  So I made another controller out of the same motor I am using, an extra one of course.  What I did was removed the commutator from the spare motor, and pressed it on my original motor that is powered by the batteries.  Then my driving motor and controller are all on the same shaft.  Nice and compact.  I will attach pics.  My problem is that it heats up very quick while operating.   Maybe 2 minutes worth of run time, thats not right.  Second, it drains the batter quickly. 

I have a couple things I wanted to ask,

1. My motor is a 120volt AC motor, but have the same wiring configuration as Teslas Ozone patent, is this a problem if I run it at 120VDC???  I didnt think so??

2.  In the oringal motor before disassembly, it had a bearing on one side and a bushing on the other.  Since I essencialy attached two motors together, I used both bushing supports and did not use the bearings to support the shafts, maybe causing to much friction??

3.  My controller commutator is turning black, from overheating, and the whole room begins to smell after 1/2hour of testing, could it be drawing to much current, Maybe to much resistance from the choking coil??  I didnt measure to check??

4.  Lastly the controller when running at 120volts worth of DC batteries, spins very quickly(which is normal with the higher voltage) but arcs very bad,  you see lines of electricity around the controller(commuator), is this normal. 


I thought this setup was perfect, but it does not work good.  I going to try this once more using this motor setup.  Ill go buy two more motors tomarrow, and instead of disassembling them all, I will just thread the end shafts and join them with a extended nut.  This way I could eliminate all the bearsin causing excess friction. 

I trulely think a relay beging fed by a reluctor rind and sensor is the best way to do this, it makes a good contact everytime.  I dont know at this point??  Any suggestions from anyone.  Any suggestion on how to make a good working model, I mean wi already know Tesla's Ozone Patent works great.

Thanks guys Fern

Nice looking shunt motor,

Notice on the patent that connected to the shunt motor aside from the commutator, there was a separate circuit controller controlled by the spin of the motor. In reality, this is not worth your time doing, it will take machining skills to do anything worth while. You can make any sort of circuit controller you want, but there is no need to make them until you decide on what the ratios will be on the other components. Resonance people, if you ever built a tesla coil, you should know what this is about, and not just anyone a correctly tuned one. You guys are designing the guitar pick, when you should be working on getting it tuned.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on September 23, 2008, 03:11:06 PM
@clone447

I think @armagdn03 is right on the tuning aspect. The whole point of the Tesla Ozone Patent is to show the relationships between low voltage, capacitance, high induction, low induction and high voltage.

You have a very good idea on mounting a second commutator on that motor. I tried to do that also with a bigger motor but was impossible to get it off the first one. Maybe I should try again. Maybe with a flywheel puller. lol

First of all it may be good to see how you have connected your circuit so if you can draw out a small diagram, this would be helpful. Please show the ohmage of the motor coil and your transformer primary and secondary voltage/amps ratings as well as their ohmage values.

For the capacitor, try and find a capacitor in the range of 47mf and 200-400 volts or more. If your capacitance is much higher then this, your commutator will create more sparks.

Also, don't run this at 120 volts dc since the resulting spikes will be very high and the commutator will get normally much hotter.  Also at 120 volts the motor will probably turn too fast for the circuit to react inductively. Use only 12-24 volts dc to start.

An AC motor can be run with dc if it is pulsed DC. The pulsing will happen when your commutator shorts the circuit. You may need to manually turn it to get it started.

Just in case, here is how to wire it up.

1) Connect one side of the switching commutator with one side of the capacitor to the battery positive.
2) Connect other side of capacitor to the one side of the primary of your working transformer.
3) Connect other side of working transformer to the other side of the switching commutator and to one side of the motor coil.
4) Now when you  connect the other side of the motor coil to ground, the motor should start turning.

You can put a manual on/off switch on the positive or negative of the battery.

If the motor coil does not have enough inductive capacity to help charge the capacitor, you may need to add another coil in series with the motor coil. This can be the secondary coil of most any good size 110vac/12vac or 220vac/24vac transformer.

Hope this helps.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: sparks on September 23, 2008, 04:39:49 PM
    Commutation in a series wound motor must first short the coil by bridging the two commutator bars attached to the coil undercommutation.  Then reverse the current through the coil.  The brushes are designed only for the amount of energy involved in this coil by coil process not the entire motor current.  Very often windings are placed in series with the main field coils to magnetically cancel the commutating coil on the armature to take the heat off the brushes.
  Hope you can use some of this information. :)
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on September 23, 2008, 08:35:16 PM
@clone447

I think @armagdn03 is right on the tuning aspect. The whole point of the Tesla Ozone Patent is to show the relationships between low voltage, capacitance, high induction, low induction and high voltage.

You have a very good idea on mounting a second commutator on that motor. I tried to do that also with a bigger motor but was impossible to get it off the first one. Maybe I should try again. Maybe with a flywheel puller. lol

First of all it may be good to see how you have connected your circuit so if you can draw out a small diagram, this would be helpful. Please show the ohmage of the motor coil and your transformer primary and secondary voltage/amps ratings as well as their ohmage values.

For the capacitor, try and find a capacitor in the range of 47mf and 200-400 volts or more. If your capacitance is much higher then this, your commutator will create more sparks.

Also, don't run this at 120 volts dc since the resulting spikes will be very high and the commutator will get normally much hotter.  Also at 120 volts the motor will probably turn too fast for the circuit to react inductively. Use only 12-24 volts dc to start.

An AC motor can be run with dc if it is pulsed DC. The pulsing will happen when your commutator shorts the circuit. You may need to manually turn it to get it started.

Just in case, here is how to wire it up.

1) Connect one side of the switching commutator with one side of the capacitor to the battery positive.
2) Connect other side of capacitor to the one side of the primary of your working transformer.
3) Connect other side of working transformer to the other side of the switching commutator and to one side of the motor coil.
4) Now when you  connect the other side of the motor coil to ground, the motor should start turning.

You can put a manual on/off switch on the positive or negative of the battery.

If the motor coil does not have enough inductive capacity to help charge the capacitor, you may need to add another coil in series with the motor coil. This can be the secondary coil of most any good size 110vac/12vac or 220vac/24vac transformer.

Hope this helps.

The motor shown in that pic is a shunt or "universal" motor, it will run off of pure DC, Pulsed DC or AC, with no special wiring needed.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: clone477 on September 24, 2008, 07:43:59 PM
Thanks for the replies guys.  I have hooked up as per Tesla's patent, also Ive have used a max of 47uf for the cap but have noticed that a smaller value produced more output from my transformer.  After digging aliitle deeper into this I thought how the hell did telsa do this switch, he didnt use a commutator and brushes, all that sparking is lost power/energy.  Then I found 5 patents for circuit controllers that I never paid any attention to.  It those patents he explains how important it is to ABRUPTLY make and break the circuit, WITHOUT any sparking.  On my commutator design, I had a ring of sparks travelling around atleast half of the commutator, very inefficient.  That also explains why before I said I got a larger out put spark when just tapping my two test leads together to make and break the circuit, instead of using the commutator.  By tapping I was makking and breaking the connection more abruptly.  Anyways, after looking at the controller they do not look very simple to replicate, although that will not stop me from trying.  I think we should all start trying to replicate that controller first as the patents says, because it was designed for this purpose to make the Ozone patent very effiecent when running.  Let me know what you guys think.  Fern
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on September 24, 2008, 09:15:10 PM
@clone477

Are you talking about the rotary switch on the Ozone Patent or are you referring to another patent and if so, which one.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: sparks on September 24, 2008, 09:19:31 PM
  Tesla used a motorized spark gap just like the old points set on a car.  You are quite right that once you see the light and corona discharge it's too late.
Plazma formation in the spark gap has to be controlled for as soon as it bridges the gap the current flow from the scource will result in emwave energy conversion directly from the scource.  If the electron cloud stays within the influence of the neucleus an energy void is created between the neucleus and electron field.
It's cold in there and re travels toward this void.  The abrupt cessation of the voltage results in the energy that is heading for this field to smackup against a wall of atomic energy.  This vibration of space results in emwave propogation powered by the ambient instead of the scource.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: clone477 on September 25, 2008, 01:00:47 AM
wattsup, Its been in front of our eyes the whole time in these 8 patents
609251
609245
611719
609246
609247
609248
609249
613735

These are all labeled under electric circuit controller.  THIS IS HOW THE CONTROLLER MUST BE BUILT, or we wont see the full benifit of the ozone patent, AND  WE WILL NOT BE ABLE TO ACHIEVE HIGH NUMBER OF MAKE AND BREAK POINTS PER SECOND.

Im aware of the rotary spark gap that is usually used, but I dont think this applies to the ozone patent.  I remember reading an interview and Tesla said a spark gap is a different device than he controllers.  Im alittle dissapointed now because I see that it will not be easy to build the controller the way Tesla says works best.  Im open to some feedback.  Fern
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on September 25, 2008, 03:25:08 AM
@clone477
It is not the controller that stops the arcing of the contacts, it is the timing at which the contacts open and close. Like pushing a swing at the right time needs little effort, if the the timing is correct there will be no sparks.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on September 25, 2008, 03:33:57 AM
F the controller,

blinded you are (to be read in Yoda voice)

This is nutz, i don't even know why I bother posting at all anymore (probably wont), if you read over the posts of the people in the know you will know where to go, who did they read to know what they know? Why do you think ol Erf has dropped of the face of the planet (as far as this place is concerned) because this is wack, nobody makes any progress even tho they were given almost step by step instructions. Even IF someone were to pull this thing off, all you would have is a fancy tesla coil, this was just step one, and nobody has even gotten that far.

Peace out people,
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: clone477 on September 25, 2008, 03:48:51 AM
Allcanadian,
I totally understand the timing of all the different parts of the circuit..
1.  Primary transformer and capacitor tuned circuit TIMED to Secondary bifilar or Secondary coil and capacitor AND frequency of make and break(RPM or motor) TIMED to the two other circuits.

Im pretty sure this is correct, but I try to read everything you teach Allcanadian, so if Im wrong let me know.

Now isnt there always going to be arching when the inductor coil collopses??
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: clone477 on September 25, 2008, 04:06:28 AM
What is the point of that post??  After reading this thread many times all I ever seen was talk about using relays in replacement for the motor armatures and field coils to provide the collapse to charge the condenser.  This was the original challenge from Erfinder.

If you read all the controller patents Tesla spells out that the controller is to be used in the exact circuit as the ozone patent one. 

I've spend the last 3 weeks, everynight reading through the patents, and building, all while being self taught in electronics.  So instead of posting a email that is deconstructive, help and teach if you have the knowledge.  I'm not asking for handouts, because Ive done so much research on this patent and have built the experiment.  Im trying to learn all I can along with everyone else.   Im willing to learn.   Fern 

F the controller,

blinded you are (to be read in Yoda voice)

This is nutz, i don't even know why I bother posting at all anymore, if you read over the posts of the people in the know you will know where to go, who did they read to know what they know? Why do you think ol Erf has dropped of the face of the planet (as far as this place is concerned) because this is wack, nobody makes any progress even tho they were given almost step by step instructions.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: otto on September 25, 2008, 08:50:54 AM
Hello all,

@wattsup

nice work. I dont have the time to read all posts but youre good. Your "TPU" looks good.

Otto
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on September 25, 2008, 02:56:07 PM
F the controller,

blinded you are (to be read in Yoda voice)

This is nutz, i don't even know why I bother posting at all anymore (probably wont), if you read over the posts of the people in the know you will know where to go, who did they read to know what they know? Why do you think ol Erf has dropped of the face of the planet (as far as this place is concerned) because this is wack, nobody makes any progress even tho they were given almost step by step instructions. Even IF someone were to pull this thing off, all you would have is a fancy tesla coil, this was just step one, and nobody has even gotten that far.

Peace out people,

As helpful as usual...
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on September 25, 2008, 03:04:35 PM
@armagdn03

I have tested this circuit in many ways. Relay contacts (burn up and don't always connect to the N/O), mosfets (burn up if you start playing around with the pulse settings), manually pulsing of two wires (very tiring lol), reed contacts (burn up), my pulse wheel is about the best method so far that I have found. I will add another contact to mine and try my Erfinder Challenge circuit since it requires DPDT contacts and I think this will be the best so far because I am getting complete connection of the common side to the NO and NC sides. Relays can flutter between these points if the capacitance is not high enough on the circuit.

As per @clone477s observation of the same, it is only normal to try and look elsewhere and his looking into other Tesla patents is not a bad thing in itself when you consider his or my knowledge of the subject may not be as expansive as yours.

@all

Case in point is Tesla Patent 609245 -

As @clone477 used the terms, Tesla calls it "make or break".

Tesla gives a great secret or perspective on discharges that I have never thought of before or should I say never have equated as being so obvious. An inductor will spark when you unplug it. A capacitor will spark when you plug it in. He says this in so simple words. Disjunction and conjunction. Disconnection and connection. Every time you connect, the cap discharges, every time you disconnect, the inductor discharges. When the inductor discharges, it spikes the primary and charges the cap, when the cap discharges, it goes in either straight or in "reverse polarity" through the transformer primary and returns to source while charging the inductor. This is because of their inherent method of holding and releasing their energy. And I always wondered how the hell the cap and coil new when to discharge with a simple shorting or unshorting and the answer is so simple. So for me, this one aspect was worth looking over that patent. Hmmm.

Then he goes on a lengthy discussion of the relationship between contact methods, spark production all relative to the wasting of important energy and he has devised his controllers to minimize this effect to the maximum level possible.

@clone477

The patents you are referring are using a conducting liquid to initiate the contacts so as to minimize or eliminate the sparks and therefore increase contact efficiency. But to tell you the truth, I doubt if I can build such a device as it will require major machining and building skills that go above and beyond my own abilities. I think you will agree.

Since @armagdn03 probably knows of all these controller patents, he is naturally wondering why the hell one would fuss about such patents, and based on that, I would agree with him.

Now the part he says about guys in the know, well, let me think about that one. Some have already tried spark gap quenching with magnets. Hmmmm.  But magnets would then modify the relay function. Hmmm again. I'm stumped.

So back to the pulsing then and it's relationship to the values of your components. You should maybe provide a good diagram of what you are doing and also a list of all the components and their values with the ohms value when applicable. I have found that, yes, changing the capacitor value will change the sparking of the relay, but it will also change the power output of the working circuit. So there has to be a comfortable midway point where you can maximize the working circuit output while reducing sparks. This is all relative to the other components. Remember the capacitor will discharge "preceeding conjunction" or before the contacts actually physically touch each other, and the inductor will discharge as the contact opens. This is not happening right at contact or at opening but before contact and as opening.

When you tested the spark gap with an outer coil and found there is energy imparted to the coil on every spark, maybe this is a way of managing both worlds. Make your contact with sparks, but capture back as much of that energy for reuse. I will have to think about that one more carefully as this is another part of the "waste not want not" required to achieve any nearness to OU.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: sparks on September 25, 2008, 04:46:55 PM
    I believe Tesla abandoned his motorized spark gaps upon the perfection of Deforest's vacuum tube.  The vacuum tube's capacitance coupling with the ambient energy fields alot cleaner and precise which must have delited Tesla.
When the electron field is stretched  the space between the proton and electron cloud is voided of charge carriers.  In a vacuum tube this seperation can be maximized because there isn't much matter for the electron field to run into.  Electron cloud seperation now able to be measured in millimeters without ionization occuring.  Space between the electron cloud and the neucleus is now really messed with.   This space is way down on the Kelvin scale.  A cavitation of the spacetime continuom ?  Then a pulse hits the grid.  This cavity collapses under the force of both the ambient wave energy and the pulse supplied energy.  Talk about stopping the current fast.  We're talking fractions of a nanosecond.  This produces a highly disruptive electromagnetic shock wave.  Which leads us to the position of the "disruptor" in relationship to the observer coils or capacitors.   Tesla just didn't put his disruptor any old place and wire her in.  He made sure he optimized the distribution of his shockwaves into his mass fields.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on September 26, 2008, 01:36:47 AM
Well great, I just received my first DC pulse generator that I purchased from ebay. It is a maximum 5vdc unit that can go up to 10mHz. I wanted this one to pulse small coils without having to deal with all the circuitry stuff. My second generator is due in a few days. I purchased it as "lights up but non-working" for 50 bucks. Once fixed, it can pulse up to 200 watts at up to 50mHz. I will get it fixed by my local EE guy. I already have the schematics and he says it is no problem for him to fix. I am in the process of buying a third one.

I figure instead of using a mosfets driven by my frequency generators with a dc power supply on the source, why not just use a pulse generator with all the proper controls. Now to see how long they will last. This will let me experiment with so many variations, quicker. Should have done this a year ago. lol
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on September 26, 2008, 02:00:57 AM
DONT use mosfets with powered by sig gen to mess with LC circuits, you will blow your sig gen at resonance. Your second generator sounds like a gem, you will enjoy that.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Ren on September 26, 2008, 02:39:01 AM
so a PWM circuit driving a mosfet is no good for this purpose?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: amigo on September 26, 2008, 03:31:48 AM
I have read all the pages of this thread and been following it since. At first I thought I'd like to actively participate but I've noticed that some people really have "a problem". As a result of that I chose to write the following to those with "a problem":

Are you looking for a public acknowledgment that you *know* something because you will not get one until everyone had verified your claims of knowing by also knowing themselves. Tossing around puzzles, cryptic words, sentences and free energy folklore to spice up what you are saying or make it more "mystical" is probably an oldest game in town. Rulers of the world had been doing it for eons to their populaces. Knowledge is power and I feel you are abusing it, if you really know something others don't. Even if you do not know, it is pretty pathetic to pretend you do and deceive others, just for your own amusement or some because you want and feed on attention of others.

Or is it that you are trying to create urban legends of yourself, just like like Bedini, Bearden and Lindemann have become household names in the free energy circles. Is the branding really important to you, will your value (stock?) go up because of it, or is there some monetary or other compensation involved that you are not willing to set us straight?

Either way, I do not care if you never ever post a single word on this forum or anywhere else, because that only shows how inflated your ego really is. So please cut with the threats of leaving or never posting again, if you want to leave - leave and be done with. Those who left at least had the decency of doing so (but never the less they still think of themselves as if they are legends - in their own mind, of course). Someone else will come and take your place and they might be truly altruistic because you have shown you are not.

Your ideas and findings can have a life of their own if they are true and honest, there's no need for puzzles and enigmatic misdirections. People here are hungry for truth and knowledge not lies and deceptions, else they would not be here to begin with.

Therefore, I'm calling your bluff - come out and put your cards on the table. Lets' see the working principles of what you are preaching here, or falsely trying to teach, because methods of your teaching are terrible. But I can not solely fault you for it for you are the product of the system you were brought in, an example of a failed education experiments we all have been trapped with for decades now

This was my open letter to this thread, take it as you wish.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on September 26, 2008, 01:55:36 PM
@amigo

Usually, when someone wants to bash someone else, as a sign of common courtesy to others, the person in question will first state to whom their grand tirade is destined,

Please modify your post and add to whom you are yelling at. We're all ears.

By the way, reading these 10 small pages of thread will not teach you anything. Experimenting will.

But regardless of who you are really talking to, I think you are really barking up the wrong tree. Some people are here day after day, others come once in a while to see what's go'in on, and some, that we understand to have a good grasp of alot of these answers simply because of their greater devotion to study and experimentation come in once and a while and lay it down. So what. Does not mean they have it all. I am sure in many ways, they are also learning from what we try here.

@Ren

There are guys here that use them all the time but they know what they are doing much more then me. There is a guy called @zpfe that  lately wanted to sue Bearden, Bedini and Lindeman and asked members what they thought of this. The guy knows something about PWM so I am putting a part of his last post before he apparently left the forum for good. Too bad, he would have been a good help here.

Quote
I’ve been designing embedded PWM motor controllers for a living for over 20 years. I do know a thing or 2 about this subject. The recoil pulse is not wasted. The inherent body diode inside the Mosfet puts this pulse across the large capacitor that is between the positive supply and ground. (We use schottky diodes for bypass, because it’s faster in response time than the body diode inside the mosfet and it dissipates the heat that the mosfet would have had to deal with).
The rough formula is 100uF for every 1 amp current to the motor.
That is the largest electrolytic capacitor(s) on each and every PWM speed controller.
Unquote

The link to that half page thread is here;
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5619.msg127796.html#msg127796

Another forum member @gotoluc has recently introduced another new member @JohnUrbanowski I call him @JU for short. He has made a pretty niffty little battery charging circuit that uses some SS but he is paying close attention to the flyback using a return diode, I think just as @zpfe referred to.

That thread is only one page and starts here;
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5621.msg127695.html#msg127695
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: clone477 on September 26, 2008, 02:42:31 PM
Wattsup and all,
After reading through the controller patents, I had an idea for the controller.  Tesla used liquid conductors and insulators for the contacts.  I dont know if this would work but I'm willing to try it.  Im thinking of submersing the controller in and insulating liquid, like oil.  Im thinking this might stop alot of the arching Ive been seeing??  Does anyone see any problem with that idea??  Fern
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on September 26, 2008, 03:31:02 PM
@clone477

In those patents, Tesla is using mercury as a liquid conductor. As the controller rotates via the coil/armature, the mercury is jetted onto each contact making the connections. Other patents are using the same type of method but with rotating brushes or other rotations.

I don't think putting a relay in oil will help. It may actually slow down the movement of the contacts, inhibit proper contact or at worst case, catch on fire.

I think the good thing about those patents is the general information in them and the confirmation of Teslas continued quest to make the ultimate contact. The level of his design elaborations is only a testament to the level of his concern. He wanted better contacts and knew they were of utmost importance. As I was reading through those patents, it was as if Tesla was sitting right beside me talking about a problem we are having today, but that he had over 100 years ago.

Yes there has to be a better way, but what? Now what if a contact had more then one contact. What if, instead of using a relay with one common, one n/o and one n/c, you had a relay with 5 or 10 of these contacts all in parallel. Would this spread out the spark but maintain the same energy transfer punch. Hmmm.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Goat on September 26, 2008, 03:38:38 PM
@ clone477

I have tried using olive oil to quench the spark on my SSG setup see http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,5024.msg111777.html#msg111777 but what I noticed is that the spark is still there so it's not the same as a magnetic quench setup or liquid metal contacts.

Regards,
Paul
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: clone477 on September 26, 2008, 05:05:20 PM
Wattsup,
Tesla also said that he used either mercury as a contact OR and electrolyte, thats a safer option.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: amigo on September 27, 2008, 02:53:12 AM
@wattsup

Sorry you see my post as a tirade...I am aware I have not named names, and for a reason. I do not wish to hijack the thread or start a flame-war. Not sure if you got the gist of what I said but what boils my noodle is those (allegedly) "in the know" people. :)

Maybe you have noticed, maybe not, but there are patterns throughout the FE community with people trying to make legends of themselves with various claims of alleged accomplishments. What makes things worse is that they are reinforced but others who repeat like parrots "Well, so and so has done it" and it almost becomes a mantra, or proof undeniable, yet it is unsubstantiated.

Long story short, there are many of us who do not need to go through the "12 step program" to get sober, we have been sober for a long time now. Instead of being spoon fed with some quasi-mystical nonsense and puzzles that should pertain to some higher knowledge that's just around the corner when you solve it (usually there's another puzzle after you solved the first one), let's see those claims out in the open.

All I'm saying is spill out the beans and have others evaluate it and replicate it. Credit will be given where credit is due, no one can dispute the truth - truth stands on its own. That's it. :)
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on October 01, 2008, 03:51:53 PM
@ Amigo,

I agree entirely.  Many who speak of Tesla's patent haven't even read them and just assume that secrets are hidden within.

I read the Ozone patent and there is nothing in there that aludes to overunity or self-sustained operation in any way, shape, or form.  The device is a cleverly efficient adaption of a disruptive discharge coil.

If anyone has anything that shows that this device is other than an Ozone Generator that runs off an external source of energy - then, please, enlighten us.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: sparks on October 01, 2008, 06:16:09 PM
      Say instead of producing ozone we are cracking water.   We start with a charged capacitor and discharge into an inductor to create an oscillation of current.   The inductor is the primary in a tesla transformer.  Would we get more energy stored in the form of hydrogen gas then invested in charging the capacitor if we rectify the secondary pulses?
      If instead of cracking water we charge a capacitor:  would it be possible to charge the second capacitor to an energy level in excess of the first capacitor stored energy?  Again rectifying the pulses.
       Is a capacitor able to transfer energy from the electrolyte into the electrical circuit?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on October 01, 2008, 10:37:37 PM
@Amigo
Quote
Long story short, there are many of us who do not need to go through the "12 step program" to get sober, we have been sober for a long time now. Instead of being spoon fed with some quasi-mystical nonsense and puzzles that should pertain to some higher knowledge that's just around the corner when you solve it (usually there's another puzzle after you solved the first one), let's see those claims out in the open.
All I'm saying is spill out the beans and have others evaluate it and replicate it. Credit will be given where credit is due, no one can dispute the truth - truth stands on its own. That's it.
My children have similar thoughts, all they know is that they want and when they get what they want then they want more. Personally I do not subscribe to that kind of nonsense, there is no satisfaction in a job well done, no insight nor understanding, no problem solving ability is developed and it does not build character nor independance, sometimes you have to get your hands dirty to succeed.

@Grumpy
Quote
I read the Ozone patent and there is nothing in there that aludes to overunity or self-sustained operation in any way, shape, or form.  The device is a cleverly efficient adaption of a disruptive discharge coil.
If anyone has anything that shows that this device is other than an Ozone Generator that runs off an external source of energy - then, please, enlighten us.
Tesla's ozone patent is an ozone generator, it is also the foundation for a technology which can extract energy in excess of that supplied to power the circuit.
Some people have said the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results. We could say the same thing about the assumptions made by people about some of Tesla's patents, If you want to rely on the perspective of using conventional current to do your work then you are delusional if you think you will ever come out ahead. Tesla's ozone patent is similar to a DC/DC converter in that it will raise the potential of the source but I have yet to see any conventional converter match the efficiency of Tesla's patent which I have built and tested. The problem is not producing currents of high potential/high frequency, the problem is that nobody has a clue as to how the output could be utilized. Consider the quality of current produced on the secondaries in a mechanical perspective, high potential ensures the current has high energy we could see this as a high pressure/ low volume flow compared to a low pressure/high volume flow which is very inefficient. High frequency ensures a minimum forward velocity(current) thus minimal friction. The forces are in oscillation back and forth with minimal forward motion but energy is still transfered. Tesla wants to transfer the high potential energy from the secondaries with almost no losses----- but transfer it where? --and for what reason?
LOL, Im pretty sure Grumpy is just provoking people so someone will give out the answer, maybe it is time to move forward. ;D
I have to go to work for a while, I will give you some the anwers I have found in a couple hours.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on October 01, 2008, 11:58:08 PM

Tesla's ozone patent is an ozone generator, it is also the foundation for a technology which can extract energy in excess of that supplied to power the circuit.


can you elaborate on this?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on October 02, 2008, 02:55:39 AM
@All
I think there are many people here who have built and experimented with tesla's Patent 568177 and most if not all have been left with one single question-----Why? What is the purpose? They might say "I have currents of high potential and frequence now what?". My understanding came only after I understood the nature of what I was dealing with, that is what qualities does this current have in relation to other currents. I think I outlined the qualities well enough in my last post and I think we should be familiar with Tesla's ozone patent so we will take the next step ---- utilization of the currents in the secondaries.
To take the next step we need to put aside EM induction and concentrate on Electrostatic Induction. Here is a good link to the general process-----http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrostatic_induction . At this link there is a picture of an electroscope which I have posted here, a (+) charged wand is brought near the electroscope charging the upper conductor ( - )negative. Next a potential difference(charge seperation) occurs in the electroscope conductor, if the (+) foil leaves inside the electroscope are grounded then the electroscope conductor could be said to have a "net" negative charge, making the wand and electroscope a capacitor. I see this a little different, the (+) charged wand produces a ( - )negative field around itself as all forces must balance, the electroscope enters the negative field and is charged negatively producing the charge seperation.
In the circuit below (lower right) we have Tesla's Patent 568177, the secondaries L2 have high potential/high frequency currents alternating, that is one end of the secondaries will be charged positive then negative and back to positive repeatedly at a high frequency and high potential. In the one instance shown, one end of the secondaries L2 is positive, I see this positive end as expanded electrons. The capacitor C2 is connected to the positive secondary L2, the diode only allows potential to flow in one direction so the positive plate of C2 will never be charged negative. I am using electron flow notation (negative flows to positive) so all of this may seem confusing, think of negative as tightly packed electrons(compressed) and positive as loosely packed electrons(expanded)---- each flows to the other equally. Now think of the electroscope, the positive plate of C2 is the wand and the negative plate of C2 is the top of the electroscope. In order for the forces to balance in C2 electrons must flow through ground through the battery (B2) charging it and into the negative plate of C2, the battery (B2)charges because its potential is 12 volts and the potential at C2 is thousands of volts. If there was no ground you would only have a charge seperation in the circuit but you would not have a "net" charge on the negative plate of C2, just like in the electroscope example. We should understand that the only current flow is from ground to the negative plate of C2, the positive plate of C2 has no current it has a "static" charge not unlike a statically charged balloon might have. When the capacitor C2 has equalized its charge on both plates the DPDT relay switches over and the high potential on C2 charges the battery (B2) again ;D. L2 must then recharge the positive plate of C2 with potential. The battery has been charged twice and all you have done is charge one plate of a capacitor on C2. You may have figured out that there could be many capacitors at the position where capacitor C2 is as well the circuit outlined by the red box could be replicated many times over on one end of the secondary L2. The secondary L2 also has two ends :o, each having a changing potential as such both ends can be utilized. I believe this process is what many inventors have refered to as using potential only, no current as current will only discharge the source of the potential. There is also an issue of electrical inertia in the battery (B2) which must be considered in the timing of this circuit, but things get a little complicated so there is no need to confuse the issue at this point. This is the only explanation I have for what I have seen in my circuits, the battery B2 charges and is equalized periodically with the other battery B1 and both charge.
Regards
AC
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: sparks on October 02, 2008, 05:36:17 AM
      Once we get the voltage high enough and the pulse short enough the energy represented by the electron orbital and angular momentum is now in a seperate inertial frame than the neucleus.  Air is now ionized and the oxygen molecule has been oxidized in the spark gap.  And e=mc2  kicks in when we consider the mass of the oxygen atom losing the mass of the electrons.  These three observations should be enough see that  energy is being transferred into the electrical system from the mass between the capacitor plates.  No majic,  just transfer of a little bit of energy very quickly into an energy flow system.   It's pretty much like each atom becoming a series connected battery!
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Ren on October 02, 2008, 10:13:03 AM
Hmmm. AC thanks for the info. I hate to say it but I see so many links to what Bedini talks about. Anyway, enough of that.

I have built a rough replica finally, with the parts I could afford and/or build myself. I was amazed to see the microwave cap on the secondaries almost instantly shoot over 1000v (max on my meter) at the right level of tune. Mosfet circuit may not be ideal, but it makes for some easy tinkering. Awaiting a scope and more accurate meter for more details.

I think I will re-read your latest post, and then read it again. And then again.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: otto on October 02, 2008, 11:13:39 AM
Hello all,

you all have to understand that we have 2 various kinds of energies, to say so.

1. our classical, we use it and its well understood

2. I will call it Aether energy

its working with high voltages and low currents and is "made" with kicks, as we say in the TPU thread.
Of course, this energy we can also convert into a usefull energy.

I have nothing more to say on this.

Otto
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on October 02, 2008, 02:49:16 PM
@Ren
Quote
Hmmm. AC thanks for the info. I hate to say it but I see so many links to what Bedini talks about. Anyway, enough of that.
I think this is what Bedini has been doing all along whether he knows it or not. His Bifiliar coil under the influence of the inductive discharge becomes electrically charged as a capacitor would. As well I have found that a battery will slowly charge to some extent by simple charging one terminal of the battery with high potential because a battery is a capacitor. If one set of plates is charged the other set will seek to balance itself with them, but its only source of energy is the space surrounding the plates.
I should have stated this is not my invention, it is not even my idea. At the beginning of this thread Erfinder said he could charge any number of capacitors with this circuit--- and he told us how to do it. He also mentioned something about charging a shorted capacitor, I take this to mean a capacitor with the leads connected together----How do you charge a capacitor with the leads connected together? I would charge the capacitor with shorted leads then unshort them and connect one lead to ground leaving me with a charged capacitor.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: sparks on October 02, 2008, 03:11:58 PM
   We can use established physics to explain a highvoltage highfrequency gain of energy from the field.  Electrons as modeled by quantom physics are moving like a bat out of hell.  We influence their orbital or spin momentum enough to get loose of the neucleus and their velocity and mass is now free energy.  A short blast of voltage influences the electrons first because well their light and easy to push or pull.  The neucleus not the case.  It's frigging heavy and takes it's time getting moving.  Electrons are free at last to do what they do best.  Go fast and displace the aether.  This electron release is best accomplished when the neucleus is pinned down or aligned.  When a magnetic energy accompanies the electric field stress there is a huge increase in the #of electrons set free as  well as condensation and polarization of the electron flow path.   It is so simple.  You have a ball blasting around a pole tied to a string near the speed of light.  You cut the string and the ball smashes a windshield a thousand miles away.   You cut loose millions of balls at the same time you vaporize the car and the entire city block it's resting on a thousand miles away.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on October 02, 2008, 04:03:48 PM
@Sparks
If you look at the electroscope model and what we call an atom we should see a similarity. A positive charge(proton) will produce a negative field around itself (electron) and inbetween the positive and negative fields will be a point of neutrality not unlike the bloch wall in a magnetic field. This neutral field could be called a neutron which may be just that ---- a field. It very well may be that most of what we consider an atom to be does not exist, they are simply the fields surrounding a charged body.The energy in these fields moves from place to place giving the illusion that something is there. Nobody has ever seen an atom nor an electron, proton and neutron, they have only measured the fields present so there has never been any real proof as to exactly what the atom is in my view.

@Otto
Quote
Hello all,
you all have to understand that we have 2 various kinds of energies, to say so.
1. our classical, we use it and its well understood
2. I will call it Aether energy
its working with high voltages and low currents and is "made" with kicks, as we say in the TPU thread.
Of course, this energy we can also convert into a usefull energy.
I have nothing more to say on this.
Otto
I think we need to de-mystify this technology, A kick is a sharp transient --a sharp potential gradient that is what it is, what is of more concern is the effects produced by this transient. As well I cannot concieve that there are two kinds of energies, there are an infinite number of energies because we are speaking of energy states namely magnitude of potential and frequency of oscillation. I agree with what you are saying but maybe not how you are saying it because it does not lead me to a better understanding of what it is we are dealing with.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on October 02, 2008, 05:10:25 PM
@ allcanadian

Good explanation.

I have something to add that will turn this discussion on its head.

The current that charges the capacitor is not electron current.  It can not be.  It is a form of current which Maxwell termed "displacement current".  This current is "virtual", it is "massless".

The capacitor is a wonderful device.  It shows us what happens at the initial connection of a circuit - two traveling waves travel from the dipole (battery, capacitor, or other source of opposite potentials) to the opposite plates of the capacitor - which doesn't cost anything but the energy required to make the connection.  No electrons flow.  You can remove the plates of the capacitor and replace them with other plates and the charge remains because the energy will remain stored in the dielectric via an aetheric polarization which only requires potential and not electrons.

Then you connect this capacitor to a battery or lower potential such as another capacitor that is not charged, the capacitor releases this energy (it balances), again the only cost is the energy required to make the connection.  Again the displacement current is called into action to charge the battery.

What we are doing is moving potential energy around - much like taking gasoline from a tank in the ground and putting it into your automobile.

Now, if the balancing act is kinetic, and the balancing force is provided by Nature and therefore "free" - we can take some potential energy, increase this amount of energy for free by causing it to balance and become kinetic for an instant and hence "increase itself" - and there is our mechanism of "gain" - courtesy of Nature.

This was "tongue in cheak" - hope it makes sense.

Charging batteries is useful, but what we really need is direct conversion to classical EM electricity or motive force to power our devices - which is what Erfinder stated a few months ago in this thread.

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: allcanadian on October 02, 2008, 06:05:40 PM
@Grumpy
I would agree completely ;D When I saw the model of the electroscope and how it works everything started to come together. As you said the capacitor is not charged by current, in my machine I only use one wire of the secondaries to ensure there can be no current only a changing potential. In fact charging with only potential seems to be the most difficult part of this technology.
Quote
Now, if the balancing act is kinetic, and the balancing force is provided by Nature and therefore "free" - we can take some potential energy, increase this amount of energy for free by causing it to balance and become kinetic for an instant and hence "increase itself" - and there is our mechanism of "gain" - courtesy of Nature.
I think this explains it better than I did previously and gets to the heart of the matter, we provide only the conditions necessary for energy to enter the circuit. There is another concept I am still trying to get a handle on as well, If a charge seperation/potential difference is produced in a conductor then we can say something has been divided, but in dividing itself it has multiplied itself because the potential at each end of the conductor has the ability to induce an opposite potential in any nearby end of another wire or wires. One potential difference produces two more, If this is the case then one charged capacitor can charge two empty ones through electrostatic induction because nature has provided the other half of the potentials on the two empty capacitors---- and again there is no current involved. science tells us that the induced charge between two charged bodies is equal to the work reqired to seperate the charged bodies but nobody said that the charged bodies had to be moved, as you said why not discharge them with a switching mechanism. I am presently testing this theory and hope It will offer to insight into the process.
Quote
Charging batteries is useful, but what we really need is direct conversion to classical EM electricity or motive force to power our devices - which is what Erfinder stated a few months ago in this thread.
I would agree that we need a simple device that converts directly, that would be the ultimate technology.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: nul-points on October 02, 2008, 10:09:25 PM
hi all

interesting discussion on the nature of charge transfer (thanks to Tak22 for the heads-up!)

as some of you know, i've been running some experiments with switching charge between capacitors, looking for OU obviously (and finding it), but also along the way discovering some things about the reality of charging capacitors

my initial energy calculations were partly based on the official text-book statement that in order to charge a capacitor you had to use as much energy in the work needed to overcome the increasing polarisation of the field between the plates as the final energy which got stored on the capacitor as a result

ie. to store 2 Joules of energy would take an extra 2 Joules from your source (4 total)

well, my initial energy calculations used that relationship to double the final energy i stored on my output caps to calculate the total energy i'd 'converted' in the whole process

my results showed total circuit energy quotient of around 1.2 (120% efficient)

the only measurements i took were DC readings of input & output cap voltages at start & finish

as a result of discussions following the posting of my findings earlier this year, i've re-run some tests, only this time measuring the runtime load dissipation for both charging & discharging the output cap

i was pleased to find that the results still come in overunity, at around the same efficiencies (depending on load values), - the most interesting thing was to discover that the charging function was NOT as claimed in the text-books - but NEITHER was it 'massless' !

i'm hoping i've posted the schematic & scope trace for my most recent results below - the (Blue) waveform for the resistive load clearly shows a definite supply of electrons for each charging transient and one larger negative pulse for the final discharge of the cap - the other (Red) waveform is the increasing charge voltage on the output cap (plus charging spikes)

the energy measurements show that the final potential energy stored on the output cap was 1.05mJoule and the measured dissipated energy was 1.04mJoule - good agreement of values and an indication that there are no significant losses in the measured part of the circuit

looking at the charging measurements shows that work was done, via the load, to charge the output cap, but it was only 77% of the stored charge (for a 10 ohm load)

repeating the experiment with a 1 ohm load produced an energy quotient of 1.35 - and the charging energy was down to 27% of the final stored energy

according to the text-books, the work done charging from cap to cap should NOT be load dependent!

how do these real-life results sit with your ideas above?

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on October 03, 2008, 12:00:38 AM
@AC

Yes I agree with what you have said. It is so crazy that you guys are talking about this now and I have been mulling over this for the last few days (while the forum was down). I will put another post on a pretty radical idea about electricity, but not in this post.

I will also try the circuit you have shown. Question is where would you connect the coil of the output relay.

But first I would like to show something that is pretty neat and a very simple method of producing high voltage from a low voltage source and that may help answer your questions.

My pulsing device is just a reed switch and a magnet in a circuit with a microwave transformer. The source battery has 12.2 volts and in just a few seconds I get 870 volts inside my tank capacitor.

Lots of photos. The first photo shows the complete system. The second photo shows a close up of my magnet near the reed switch and the sparks. The third photo shows the scope shot taken when the reed sparks. The fourth is a basic diagram.

The scope shot is much more involved then shown. Actually the whole scope screen is full of vertical lines. The scope was set as follows

VARIABLE VOLT/DIV 5 (my scope maximum)
TIME DIV 5ms
PROBE WAS SET AT 10X (because at 1x the waves just shot way off the screen).

I am doing a few other reed tests with a microwave transformer but with the top removed so I have a great electromagnet with a secondary. I tried this with the above circuit and it produces about half the voltage rise as the one above in the same time frame, but it permits to use the electromagnet for other things such as motive force, relay latching, etc., that you cannot do with the closed armature of a normal transformer. I will use two cut microwave transformers and try my circuit entitled 3 Way Reed Flyback Tester that I put up on page 8 of this thread.

I will also try my FTPU build and a few other builds with this driven method and see what gives.

Lastly, I am now very convinced that any form of coil to coil coupling should be done via laminated metallic plates. I you have to cut up a regular transformer and retrieve the laminates, this will give you the best coupling possible and you can then apply many types of coiling configurations. Using solid iron rod or bunched iron wire is not good and a major waste of time. If you have a microwave transformer, just grind off one of the welds that holds the top (or bottom) and then break it off with a hammer. Takes 5 minutes. This will give you both a very powerful electromagnet plus secondary to recycle energy plus some great laminate material to wind test coils. I put up the two last photos to show how to cut the transformer.

I'll fill you guys in when I have more concrete results. lol

@nul-points

Good work there. I will have to look at this more closely when time permits.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: giantkiller on October 03, 2008, 12:29:35 AM

Think what you want.   ;D

To know, one must shut down the sense faculty.  If and when you succeed, you will begin to comprehend nature, and no longer need to interpret, as she is fully capable and willing to tell you how she does what she does.  The question we should be asking at this point is, if the senses are shut down, with what faculty is one interacting with Nature?  LOL... ;D


Walter Russell quoted....

--giantkiller.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on October 03, 2008, 01:04:01 AM

how do these real-life results sit with your ideas above?

Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc

Nice work.

I'm trying to get my mind around the essentials of it all, so that I can devise a better way than charging batteries.  We need something on the order of 20kw for home or auto use - this isn't small potatoes.

Lookng over Ivor Catt's work with Heaviside's "energy current" - interesting ideas presented.  He also brings up that a DC current is the resutls of two opposing traveling waves -  ;)
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: nul-points on October 03, 2008, 01:33:34 AM
thanks guys, hoped it would be relevant


Ivor Catt - yes, and not just DC in circuit wires - he suggests the charge on a cap is reflecting waves, too!

all the best
sandy
Doc Ringwood's Free Energy site  http://ringcomps.co.uk/doc
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: amigo on October 03, 2008, 02:30:21 AM
@Amigo
My children have similar thoughts, all they know is that they want and when they get what they want then they want more. Personally I do not subscribe to that kind of nonsense, there is no satisfaction in a job well done, no insight nor understanding, no problem solving ability is developed and it does not build character nor independance, sometimes you have to get your hands dirty to succeed.

See, that's where we respectfully disagree. These are just steps on the path and there's absolutely no reason that we all have to go through them from the very beginning. Someone had already laid down the stones before us, and our job is to continue laying stones ahead. And that would work just fine if there weren't people of older generations (no disrespect to yourself) who believe that younger generations need to learn the lesson the "hard way", the way older generations did it because that's how *they* believe character is built.

I'm sorry but that's just totally backwards way of thinking and by the same analogy there are still people out there (not saying you) who still believe woman's place is in the house as a homemaker, or to raise the children, and not be an equal partner among men.

What I'm trying to say is this: The knowledge of the past experiences *is* available, but older generations do not share it outright because they want to teach the younger generations "a lesson" (or they do not wish to be surpassed by younger generations, but that is just plain ludicrous thinking).
Instead of letting the younger generations soar high freely with the knowledge the older generations could impart, they are making the younger generations crawl on the ground while at the same time enchanting them with stories of flight they might achieve one day *if* they follow in the same footsteps of the older generations.

That is a recipe for producing factory belt conventional thinkers which our academia has been seeding for decades now, endorsed by the governments, of course, because they don't want radical thinkers who think outside the box and could stir the pot by showing everyone how obsolete the governments and academia really are.

The ways of the old are not necessarily the ways of the new, nor should they be. And neither are good or bad ways. But minds are evolving and are faster to catch things than those before them. Why should anyone stand in the path of development because of their ego?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: sparks on October 03, 2008, 03:30:01 AM
    Tangentially emitted from any migration of electrons are electromagnetic waves traveling at the speed of light.  These displacement waves are constantly being emitted even though the electrons are confined to neucleic dictated orbitals.  A neucleic exchange of electrons due to charge gradient results in the emitted displacement waves taking on a vectored radiation pattern.  Constructive wave interference.  This is our familiar mass migration produced electrical current.  A very small portion of the electron emwave emission constructively interfering.   What can be seen from this is that the atom is always radioactive as the electron travel continually displaces the magnetic aether.  A permanent magnet is a crystal lattice that ensures the electron travel is such that it's displacement waves interfere in a particular pattern.  Where I'm going with this is that any process that causes a constructive interference of this electronic wave energy will give us free energy.
     This still leaves us with the problem at hand.  What to do with high voltage high frequency energy.  I believe Mr. Tesla gave us the answer when he refers to his translatory machines.  By charging one of his capacitor coils and discharging the capacitor into a circuit designed to be resonant at a lower frequency than that charging the cap.  In other words pulse charging the cap and discharging the cap into a resonant circuit where the inductance of the circuit takes on the form of a motor or stepdown transformer primary.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on October 03, 2008, 02:12:34 PM
Question:

If my transformer secondary can charge one huge 88mf 1200vdc capacitor to 870 volts in a few seconds, can I instead charge 10 capacitors to 87 volts each in the same few seconds and will this then transform my same high voltage low amperage output to a lower voltage higher amperage output. lol.

Meaning, instead of trying to take a high voltage low amperage output result and storing it in a large capacitor and only then look to re-transform this through one or several step down transformer methods, why not use a capacitor bank and spread out the initial output.

Then just use an isolation transformer to run a load or loop it back to source. Hmmm.

I remember there was this Menonite (our other) bearded guy that made a YouTube demo of a self running electric generator and behind the motor he had a large number of capacitors behind the motor. Can't remember where I saw it but having these capacitors in parallel and feeding them with a high voltage would have spread out the voltage/amperage.

So do parallel capacitors increase amperage.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: barbosi on October 03, 2008, 03:04:37 PM
First of all, thank you allcanadian for your treatise, I was missing the point all this time and now I got passed through another layer of understanding.


If my transformer secondary can charge one huge 88mf 1200vdc capacitor to 870 volts in a few seconds, can I instead charge 10 capacitors to 87 volts each in the same few seconds ...[snip]


Read allcanadian again, I think you missed the point.


So do parallel capacitors increase amperage.


Look at allcanadian's schematic. Can you say or calculate the rush-in current for C2?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: sparks on October 03, 2008, 03:48:01 PM
    Parallel capacitors increase storage capacity but decrease efficiency.  So the parallel caps would be the same as your 88mfd cap.  AC's point as well as Grumpy's is that the charging of a capacitor can be accomplished using the energy of the opposing charged mass.  Conventional charging of a capacitor is because electrons are pumped into a plate making it negatively charged which attracts positively charged ions from an electrolyte that is in intimate contact with the plate but electrically insulated from it by an aluminum oxide layer.  AC is talking about charging the capacitor by setting up a field where migration of the electrons using their own energy towards the field charges a plate instead of pumping the electrons into or out of the plate.
     I believe this was accomplished by Tesla and Moray by using the grid capacitance in a vacuum tube as an ouput instead of a control.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on October 03, 2008, 04:10:20 PM
I have read all the pages of this thread and been following it since. At first I thought I'd like to actively participate but I've noticed that some people really have "a problem". As a result of that I chose to write the following to those with "a problem":

Are you looking for a public acknowledgment that you *know* something because you will not get one until everyone had verified your claims of knowing by also knowing themselves. Tossing around puzzles, cryptic words, sentences and free energy folklore to spice up what you are saying or make it more "mystical" is probably an oldest game in town. Rulers of the world had been doing it for eons to their populaces. Knowledge is power and I feel you are abusing it, if you really know something others don't. Even if you do not know, it is pretty pathetic to pretend you do and deceive others, just for your own amusement or some because you want and feed on attention of others.

Or is it that you are trying to create urban legends of yourself, just like like Bedini, Bearden and Lindemann have become household names in the free energy circles. Is the branding really important to you, will your value (stock?) go up because of it, or is there some monetary or other compensation involved that you are not willing to set us straight?

Either way, I do not care if you never ever post a single word on this forum or anywhere else, because that only shows how inflated your ego really is. So please cut with the threats of leaving or never posting again, if you want to leave - leave and be done with. Those who left at least had the decency of doing so (but never the less they still think of themselves as if they are legends - in their own mind, of course). Someone else will come and take your place and they might be truly altruistic because you have shown you are not.

Your ideas and findings can have a life of their own if they are true and honest, there's no need for puzzles and enigmatic misdirections. People here are hungry for truth and knowledge not lies and deceptions, else they would not be here to begin with.

Therefore, I'm calling your bluff - come out and put your cards on the table. Lets' see the working principles of what you are preaching here, or falsely trying to teach, because methods of your teaching are terrible. But I can not solely fault you for it for you are the product of the system you were brought in, an example of a failed education experiments we all have been trapped with for decades now

This was my open letter to this thread, take it as you wish.


Message received. I am sorry for my outburst, why call it by any other name. I am particularly frustrated with several things that do not concern this forum, and so frustration got the best of me.  Wont happen again.
To that end, I realize not all have been fortunate enough to have read or had access to the things I have had access too. I have been compiling lessons to share information at my leisure to anybody interested. I am by no means an expert, but have much to share which seems to have slipped past the watching eyes of most.
If there is anyone who would like to provide web hosting for this information, I would greatly like to speak to you. I have the know how, but not the time. I am trying to balance schooling, with my continued study in this area, documenting my knowledge to share, and of course, there’s always a woman in the picture, which takes up considerable time ;)  If content, pictures, video and layout were provided, would there be an individual who would be willing to take care of its presentation on the web design side of things?
This would not be a place of discussion, merely presentation……. and discussion may follow wherever the readers wish it to. A good portion of information has already been created for this purpose, and will be delivered to the reader in chapters, so that I may prepare more for the next chapter, and so that readers can fully explore and understand what’s happening before they move on.
If anybody has interest, please message me, and we can talk it over.
Sorry again, and thanks!
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: am1ll3r on October 03, 2008, 04:33:51 PM
Quote
If there is anyone who would like to provide web hosting for this information, I would greatly like to speak to you. I have the know how, but not the time.

Let me know ... I can help ;D
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: sparks on October 03, 2008, 04:57:58 PM
     Another property of capacitance discovered by Tesla was that the electomagnetic displacement waves produced by a conventional current flow could be utilized to catalyze the production of a huge standing wave field.  The current would warp natural electron orbitals to reach a state so that their intrinsic energy produced electromagnetic displacement waves  which would maintain and increase modified electron orbital states in surrounding mass fields.  These electronic displacement waves would reflect back and forth and build in amplitude all powered by the intrinsic electron kinetic energy.  This is what Tesla describes when he states a 25,000 fold increase in the energy stored in his bifilar coil/capacitor.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: giantkiller on October 03, 2008, 08:38:52 PM
@Sparks!
Well that sounds like the return to their natural state or collapse all at once would be quite the concert of heterodyning power. Thump!

--giantkiller.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: sparks on October 03, 2008, 09:30:58 PM
@gk

      Most definitely a shocking wave happening.  The tricky part to all this is to make sure that the input duty cycle is just enough to effect the electron field without losing too much energy to the neucleus inertia.  I remember SM and others referring to the inertia of the electrons as compared to the neucleus.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on October 04, 2008, 12:26:21 AM
@armagdn03

Good to hear from you again.

I am in the process of setting up an FTP directory (no web pages) to store information and have it available without actual web pages. I have a pretty extensive list of Tesla patents and other directories that I am setting up slowly but surely with alot of what I already have on my computer. If you want me to open a directory for you, no problem. You can see it here at http://purcoenergy.qc.ca/ftp and you can send your files as a zip file with pdfs (if possible) or other files here contact@purcoenergy.qc.ca. In both addresses, please remove the word energy.

I wanted to make an ftp place where information can be concentrated by subject so it is more easily available then to search through the forum site for things that are spread all over the place. So I will add more as time permits. Keeping it ftp based will eliminate any web page making requirements. Yes I can make web pages but do not want to waste time. Members can accumulate whatever they want and send it in to get it put on the ftp. But I will not spend countless hours on this since I spend most of my free time doing experiments. lol

@sparks and @barbosi

I understand perfectly well what @AC has shown, with thanks. I have already tested the principle of the secondary free action of that circuit with a small dc motor and realize its importance. This is why I asked about the relay coil connection which is not shown and must be connected in a way to ensure the relay can switch between both contacts without floating in between as we usually see. My questioning was not related to his information but was for general alternative to low amperage outputs. In any case, I will try it out during the coming days and see for myself.

@sparks

I am "starting" to catch your comments. How the hell do you come up with this stuff. Seems like you were born between two charging capacitors. lol

I am interested in what electricity is and why some have stated that the speed of electricity changes with the voltage. The higher the voltage, the faster the electricity travels through a circuit. Well I do not completely accept this notion and once I have my idea ready, I will post it here.

You should maybe look up the word Universons and see if you can catch some of this information. It has a direct bearing on both our free ether energy effort and our understanding of electricity. Unfortunately most of their information is in french but there should be enough there to wet your pallet. I am sure you will enjoy this information.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on October 04, 2008, 04:41:51 AM
Thank you for the many offers I got from many members, greatly appreciated.

I will be posting the information on a section of Erfinders website, Forgotten-genius.com and will announce on this forum when the first chapter is up
I have created the writing, and the video for it, and sent it Erfinders way for him to load.

Section one will demonstrate a simple concept, section two and three will introduce a simple device, that for all practical perposes is the heart and soul of many many OU devices.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: sparks on October 04, 2008, 04:48:11 PM
@wattsup

      I once overheard a conversation between an upperclassman and a professor talking about radioactive decay of some isotope.  The upperclassmen proudly proclaimed that he had calculated the joules of energy released in the 1/2 life of this particular element.   The professor replied.  Now go and calculate the joules involved with a single 1s electron migration over the same period and report it to those assholes down the highway building the plant. (neuclear power plant).   Been hooked on trying to get some of that electron kinetic energy to run my hot water heater ever since. :)
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on October 04, 2008, 07:23:18 PM
I received my 2nd pulse generator (the one that did not work) and started her up this morning and to my great surprise, it does work. The eBay seller advertised that the unit goes on overload when started, but this is normal if the buttons were pressed in a wrong setting. So he sold it as is for 50$ but it works. lol

I can now pulse up to 10mHz and up to 100 volts dc so more fun to come.

I will try my last high voltage experiments but this time I will pulse into a small electromagnet to replace the regular magnet and see if there is any difference when put close to the reed contact.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on October 05, 2008, 01:18:29 AM
The first two pages of the talk are up on erfinders website www.Forgotten-Genius.com (http://www.Forgotten-Genius.com)
You can find them under the Armagdn03 tab at the top, or by clicking here http://www.forgotten-genius.com/documents/pg__2_2.html (http://www.forgotten-genius.com/documents/pg__2_2.html)

There will be a discussion bord on the page as well. Anybody wanting serious discussion can contact Erfinder or myself at forum@forgotten-genius.com  (http://forum@forgotten-genius.com)
Space is limited so take advantage! Unfortunately there is not enough space for everyone.  I will be availible for serious questions on this forum as well, or PM me.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on October 05, 2008, 07:41:43 AM
Just to finish off my latest circuit tests, I did some alternative pulsing methods of my reed switch and have discovered some pretty interesting effects. Why am I looking for other methods......

Well although the reed and magnet works very well, the reeds don't last long. The tips get completely eaten away and then they soon after will stick or should I say weld together. Interesting also is that the magnet can be placed near the reed of stuck onto one side of the reed stems. So magnetizing the wire or placing it near the reed in open air are doing the same thing. Hmmmm.

Now I took a small coil from a relay and pulsed it with my DC generator at many frequencies and there was not even a flicker from the reed.  Then I simply put a straight DC 12 volts onto the coil and stuck it to the reed end and bingo I could again get the sparks although less then with the magnet and the reed burned out again. So pulsing is not good and straight dc is good to oscillate the reed.

Now here's the fun part.

I then took a solenoid coil that has an air core. This time I placed the reed through the coil. I then gave it straight 12 vdc and there was now pulsing at all and no voltage rise. I then tired with my pulse generator and at around the 3000-4000 hz range bingo. The reed pulsed at a steady rate  and there is no or very very little reed degradation, plus the voltage rise was very good and the battery drain was the lowest I had ever seen it. Pulsed DC into a solenoid coil with a reed contact inside seems to be a very good way to produce complete on/off pulsing without the constraints of a dioded mosfet (flyback killer) or the hassle of running an electric motor run rotary switch.

The other good thing is that the solenoid could be run by a mosfet and the reed contact would isolate the mosfet from the dangers of being inline with the whole circuit. Hmmmm again.

Now the next step is to include this into @ACs circuit and have some more fun. lol

I put up a diagram to summarize the effects.

@armagdn03

I will look forward to reading your doc on Erfs site.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on October 06, 2008, 12:23:51 AM
A third section to the presentation on Erfinders website has been posted.

This will show how to keep ressonant conditions through out a device, allowing propagating energy through the engineering of induction oscillating 90 degrees out of phase with conduction. This is what people mean when they say we should be enginnering around induction.

This concept is the father-mother of many free energy devices.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: mondrasek on October 06, 2008, 11:45:48 PM
Could someone please give the address to Erfinders website?

Sorry for the interuption.

M.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on October 07, 2008, 12:00:50 AM
www.forgotten-genius.com (http://www.forgotten-genius.com)
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on October 07, 2008, 01:54:30 AM
@armagdn03

Erfs site seems to be down under maintenance. I tried several time to login with my regular password and can't get in.

@all

Regarding the reed contact pulsing with a solenoid over it, it is working great with @AC circuit (without the battery recharge side yet) and very very low degradation of the reed.. I am very surprised at the results. Plus battery voltage seems to not go down, or it goes down by .1 volts, then when I stop it goes back up.

I have a bank of 15 capacitors that I charged up to 550 volts. When compared to charging only one big capacitor to the same voltage level, here is what I am thinking.

These 15 capacitors are each charged to 550 volts so I can discharge them one at a time back into the system and each discharge will be at 550 volts. If I tried discharging the one  big capacitor, all I will get is one big discharge instead of 15. Does this make sense. I know I could consume a few volts off the big one and discharge a few volts at a time, but by having the 15, I get maximum punch per discharge.

I will now make a new transformer with one turn of primary over a several secondaries that will then be put in parallel to increase amperage.

Found this on Erfs home page from Tesla himself.

"The damped wave is of advantage because it gives you, with a generator of 1 kilowatt, an activity of 2,000, 3,000, 4,000, or 5,000 kilowatts; whereas, if you have a continuous or undamped wave, 1 kilowatt gives you only wave energy at the rate of 1 kilowatt and nothing more. That is the reason why the system with a quenched gap has become popular. "

I think my reed contact inside the solenoid is doing the same thing as a quenched gap, Not sure. I'll have to learn more about "damped waves".
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on October 07, 2008, 03:26:21 AM
there is no discussion board up at this time, I created a topic here in the tesla tech forum. The information is availible on his main website www.forgotten-genius.com
click armagdn03 at the top menu and you should be good to see it all.


A fourth video will displayed soon showing the concept with pulsed opperation.

I will also unhide a video created a while back on my youtube account showing measurements for the device in the 3rd video....but please none of this, "you have to take both measurements at the same time" think the problem through, and you will realise that in this case, that does not hold true, if you need an explanation as to why, pm me. I didnt include the math, as all should capable of doing this.  just volts time amps = watts

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idey7O0WlU0 (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idey7O0WlU0)

My youtube account is tortuga0303


P.S.

@ Grumpy,

Good job finding the quote, this has direct relation to these videos which will be shown very soon.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: sparks on October 07, 2008, 05:37:01 AM
I'm having a problem uploading an attachment of a circuit and have tried to describe this circuit in a thread on electrinium to resonanceman.  So I'm gonna try it again here. 

 @Armegedon:  looks good.

  My idea was to set up an Lc network but use a Tesla cap/coil in series on each leg between the inductor and the main cap.  As the main circuit oscillates these thrucurrrent capacitors should alternately charge and discharge without effecting the oscillator.  The electrostatic field produced between these two caps would be interesting to monitor.  Bonus energy? I was going to use a small motor as the inductor in this circuit. 
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: barbosi on October 08, 2008, 03:13:38 AM
The first two pages of the talk are up...

Thank you armagdn03 for putting effort on this presentations and to Erfinder for hosting them.

armagdn03, I was watching these commonly known facts and reading your comments and I have to say you have the gift of highlighting simple things that escape to our interpretation.
And if you allow me, I'll try to make a small correction and I hope to take it as an interchange.
In your presentation you said:

Quote
This means that while one is at max, the other is at min and vice versa.
....
These could easily be labeled Voltage and Amperage, noting that while one is at min, the other is at max.

I'm sure you didn't meant exactly that but rather "when one is at its apex the other is at zero".
I attach here a snip from that picture taken from www.allaboutcircuits.com for reference. I would say that this particular little mistake made me reflect. It is at the apex of one wave when we have to notice the seed of the other. While one is "decaying" the other is "growing" and so forth.

I can't wait for your next material. Thus far I found your presentation very inspirational.

Regards.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on October 08, 2008, 09:32:20 PM
Keey eye, im glad people are paying attention.

Actually i mean exactly what I wrote. Max = apex, min = zero. if you would rather apply those words then do so.

f you were to view min as the negative apex at the other half of the cycle, then my statement would be incorrect. But the negative half of the cycle is really just a reversed copy of the first and its peak is another max,  and the same rules apply.
Try to equate it to something more familiar, thats why I told of the pendulum.

When it is on the up swing and changing direction, it stops for a fraction, at its higest point, or its max of potential, then as it hits dead center, its moving its fastest, or max kinetic, then the cycle happens again in reverse as it swings back up to its high potential position on the opposite side.

for further understading it is important to realise that the conditions all revolve around zero, and zero is min.

You can post here if you like, but i have also set up a new thread specifically for this in the tesla tech part of the forum, ill put up a link, but its easy to find
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on October 09, 2008, 04:42:40 PM
@armagdn03

I would like to also thank you for your great web page and three videos. Very well explained and demonstrated effects of how resonance will modify or "vary" the resitance hence the energy flow through a circuit. This is giving me some great new avenues to explore and experiment.

As these demos have used an AC sine wave, do you think the same effect is possible with straight dc pulsing, or would there be required some type of DC sweep up and sweep down pulsing to create a similiar effet as the max-0-max, or does it absolutely require a DC sweep pulse/sweep reverse polarity pulse, etc.

In essence, if you have a signal generator that can switch between two pre-set sine wave frequencies
that are each a resonance of two different valued coil/capacitor pairs, your demonstration could be doubled in its effect. With three it could be tripled. Hmmmm.

Your method of explaining is both comprehensive and attainable and I would put this as a prerequisite to anyone potantial OUer. Thanks again and hope to one day see a page two.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on October 09, 2008, 06:09:04 PM
The next episode will contain DC pulsing. Here is a hint DC pulsing works just the same except with harmonics.

Also dont try to double this effect, don't heterodyne etc, don't worry about any of that, MAYBE it could be done, but its not worth your time at this point. maybe try to build a motor off of it?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: johnnyfg on October 30, 2008, 02:47:53 AM
This is what Tesla describes when he states a 25,000 fold increase in the energy stored in his bifilar coil/capacitor.

I have read that patent, and in thinking the old way, that a coil need several layers to be "useful" ... I know this is probably not true when this type of coil-winding is used, but IF one want to wind a coil using this method and wire it multilayered, how should that be done without reducing the energy storage capacity?

Regards Johnnyfg
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: johnnyfg on October 30, 2008, 02:58:09 AM
@All
... When the capacitor C2 has equalized its charge on both plates the DPDT relay switches over and the high potential on C2 charges the battery (B2) again
...
Regards
AC

I cant see how the relay is operated in the schematics. Is there a electrostatically operated? Ie the relay-switches free-floating and switched over by the difference of electrostatic charge on the relay-contacts?
If so, it seems like a interesting way. Probably something not that is easy to do in a circuit simluator I guess.
Btw. Is exprimenting using circuit-simlation useful for this type of electronics?
Is it possible to obtain such simulator-examples to expriment with?
I think that would be a great way to all of us to be given readmade fully working virtual "proof-of-concept" machine(s), at no cost. And we have as a group the ability to test using exactly the same setup. No need to get building errors or different results due to different equipment etc. You can then test for things like exotic vaules without having to spend money and time finding them.

Regards Johnnyfg
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on November 05, 2008, 04:10:54 PM
Well, I will have to find a metal shop to build a winding jig to wind my 3 lb coil since I have found nothing useful to use in my home. While that is being made, I have been mulling over an idea for another build I will do as follows.

Since @armangdn03 has been showing us resonant LC using capacitor and coil, I have been thinking that the same thing could be made with a bifilar coil to replace the capacitor. Putting this on a toroid core and adding two output coils should be interesting to see what happens when the bifilar coil and the standard coil are fed a frequency to reach resonance, what will be the output of the two output coils.

I have made a diagram below.

Any ideas to add to this would be appreciated. I know the A and B wires coming from the LC may have to be crossed to keep the directionality on the toroid.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on November 06, 2008, 08:44:36 PM
The next installment has been made on erfinders site www.forgotten-genius.com

@wattsup

Any use of the energy off of your output coils will depleat the resonant rise of your bifilar driving coil. This is why I say you cannot just "tap" into this energy in conventional ways.  Also, there is no need for a seperate coil to add to your "cap" since the bifilar is made to have both inductance and capacitance you only need it to resonate.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on November 09, 2008, 08:28:50 PM
@armagdn03

Thanks for your comment. I will consider this when making this build. I have a nice 4" #26 ferrite core that will be just perfect for this experiment.

@all

While is was working on the above design, I got to thinking about something that I think not many have looked into, even doing a Google search, so I made a diagram of the idea and attached it below again as open source.

The basic idea is that when considering testing with the Ozone patent components, the transformers that I am using are the standard type with straight thin laminates going from the primary to the secondary, and given the different wire sizes and turns of each side will determine the overall input to output ratios of any given transformer. Since the laminates are the same going from the primary to the secondary, the laminates, which are the actual conveying medium are required to act as a 1:1 coupling ratio and the coils are the ones that have to compensate for any input/output ration requirements or differentials in potentials.

So........ what if the laminates where not straight and uniform. What if they were thicker on one end and get thinner on the other end as shown in the rough diagram below. What is really happening inside the laminates since they are the actual ones doing all the transfer from one coil to the other. This would provide a triangular laminated core with a wide end and a thin end. Either side could be the primary or secondary. You could even have three coils or more on this design.

The question is if this was produced, what would be the actual end result. If the wide end was the primary that received good capacitor discharges, since the laminate is getting thinner, is the amount of transfer entering the wide side all being transferred to the thin side at a higher compression level.

If the thin side was the primary and received very high frequency pulsing, would the thicker side impart more of an amperage to that coil?

The basic idea is that we have been using coil turns and wire sizes to make coupling over any given core. What if the core can also be designed to assist in this. Why not intervene at the core level.

This could also be used in toroidal cores.

In  honor of the brave men and women of the armies that are fighting in many countries, both from USA and Canada and others, and given this actual design reminds be of a trumpet, I would like to call this core idea a "Bugle Core". Now to figure out how to get these laminates or it could be oriented steel cut in triangles. Hmmmmmm.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Thaelin on November 11, 2008, 01:37:27 AM
   @armagdn
   Many thanks for putting things in a way I could understand. That was the key to
make all the parts start to form together. I have had quite a time with the AC aspect
of coils and such. Something kept nagging at me and you finally led me to it.  Q
   I happen to have a copy of the 1959 ARRL and it has starting on page 56 a great
put it in plain text copy of what you are doing. Even does the harmonics. If I didn't
know better, I would say "LC Tank" and more than one.  And darn if it doesn't talk
of Q being the multiplier for the circulating power in the tank. A tank with 50ma at
100 Q is circulating 5amps in there! True the secondary would drag that down but...
Has to be heavy wire in there also to handle it, can we say lamp cord?
   This is just too much in the right direction to pass up trying. So I know where I
will be for a while. Get 11 days off from work thanksgiving holliday.   ;D

   Now to find that freq calculator site that also gives the q of the circuit input.

thaelin
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on November 11, 2008, 07:14:52 PM
@ Thaelin

"This is just too much in the right direction to pass up trying."

 ;)

Here is a quote from a leading tesla expert speaking at an AERO conference.
"When you start using reflective kilowatts which is what were talking about here, it constitutes a new form of reactive power. And the reason why its so exciting is, because the same grid, that is in place today, carrying kilowatts, if it were carrying reactive power could service 1000 times more customers without increasing the size of the generating facility. Its just the nature of the beast. Its actually dictated by the terms of the maximum power transfer theorem. Which very clearly shows you , that you maxed uot on your transmission capabilities while the source impedance is equal to the conjugate of load impedance. So if you are doing that game resistively you’re immediately restricted by very severe limitations. But if you switch it to an impedance that is primarily reactive, and reduce resistance way down, which means your Q is going to go way up, then all of a sudden you are dealing with monstrous amount of power for the same input. This is the whole idea of Tesla’s concept, but nobody is using it. And its in every engineering book around, just gotta understand what it really means."

Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Thaelin on November 12, 2008, 01:13:15 AM
   And to think, I just read that in the '59 ARRL manual. I have to confess tho,
I was really dense on the aspect of AC. The more I study it, the more it shows
me. Not just 60hz but RF in general. Owe you a beer or two.

thaelin
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Charlie_V on November 13, 2008, 05:05:55 AM
@armagdn03

I got some questions. 

Firstly, has anyone repeated Tesla's Colorado Springs experiment where he powered an incandescent light bulb?  Is this what the Tesla experts are doing right now?  If so, where can I get this information?  I have looked and cannot find anything!  Just alot of bogus misconceptions on how his system is suppose to work - none of them are correct.  armagdn03, yours is the closest but I haven't fully read everything - don't have alot of time these days.


Secondly,
Quote
This is the whole idea of Tesla’s concept, but nobody is using it.

I am doing it! 

As of this Monday I was able to transmit about 30 Watts to power a 25 Watt incandescent light bulb through the ground plane - would be more efficient but I kept the ground plane separated from earth ground for safety reasons, so the transmitter had a slightly different frequency than the receiver.  If the ground plane is removed the light bulb turns off.  Its purely reactive power transfer.  Actually, you convert real power to reactive, send it down the ground plane as reactive, then transform it back to real power for usage.  So basically, I successfully reproduced Tesla's Colorado Springs experiment.  My next goal, for this Friday, is to test to see how well it works in an earth ground.  Then to eventually see how far I can take the receiver from the transmitter - this is not radio transmission either - its a weird reactive power ground wave which everyone seems to ignore.  My frequency is way too high (750kHz) for the earth though so I don't think I'll get very far. 

Again, I wanted to know if I'm the only one doing this since I can find no where on the internet where people have repeated this.  Tesla's work has been around for a while so I doubt I'm the first.  On these very forms people are using single wire transmission to power LEDs, but I haven't seen anyone take it to the higher scale.  The max my transmitter will send is 300 Watts but this is because of my power supply.  My input is only 3kV - I haven't taken it up to full power either because I'm scared of the repercussions - resonance of high Q coils is a scary thing.  But luckily I haven't made any large arcs, other than the noise from the spark gap (and the glow of the bulb) you wouldn't know its on.  I can 100% back Tesla's claims, his method works and is way better than the present mode of power transmission. 

Please, if you can give me more information as to what people have done that would help.  I am presenting my work at a conference in two weeks.  Would be nice to be the first, but I doubt it.

Thanks,
Charlie
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Charlie_V on November 13, 2008, 05:34:14 AM
One more thing:

Quote
True the secondary would drag that down but...

Actually, you can get around the damping effect the primary has on the secondary.  Its quite easy.  The secondary only acts as a regular transformer with high coupling to input energy into the system.  You use an "extra coil" as the main high Q resonator and keep it as far from the primary/secondary as possible.  Mine is only 4 feet away but I didn't want to make it any higher since the top of my transmitter is about 15 feet.  The wire length connecting the bottom of the extra coil does not factor in.  It seems these coils are quite impervious to what is applied to them on the bottom - the magic seems to happen at the top. 

In fact, this was rather confusing to me when I first read Tesla's colorado spring notes.  He never tells you that hes using the secondary as a regular transformer - I've heard it referred to as "the driver" setup.  But when you start doing the calculations of his secondary, it is not tuned to anything and has nothing to do with the extra coil.  He only uses it to input energy (and he never tells you, he just starts doing it out of no where).  He changes directions very rapidly in the notes and you can almost miss it.  Then if you look at his 1915 patent, the latest Tesla coil patent, you will notice that the bottom of the coil is actually a regular transformer, the primary wound tightly around a secondary.  The "Extra coil" is cleverly drawn above it but if you don't pay attention you would never notice that fact since the extra coil is drawn without separation between it and the secondary.  If you follow that patent you will not build the proper device to transmit energy.  The top toroid is way too large, the coils are too tightly wound, and the "extra coil" is too close to the secondary.  I'm almost positive Tesla did this on purpose because he didn't want to give away the secret of his transmission method.  Following that patent would only give you a device to generate large sparks - if that, nothing more.  Oddly enough, he writes his notes as if he knew someone would be reading them - someone other than him.  And because of that I feel he purposely left things out. 

I am still learning things, its an on going process, haha!
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: sparks on November 13, 2008, 02:35:46 PM
@Charlie V


          I have seen a video of Eric Dollard doing a replication of Tesla's power transmitter.   I believe that the transmitter constructs a magnetically confined plasma.  The core of the plasma is ionized oxygen and nitrogen atoms that form a lattice defined by the atomic magnetic dipole moments.  This highly charged positive field radiates it's charge state and appears as an electrostatic positive charge to any mass fields it may encounter.  Electrons trying to enter the ionized core (which would cause the ionized lattice to collapse into it's parent gases) are drawn into the resonating circuit and pumped into the Earth resulting in the ground plane wave energy.  Just a hunch from an experiment I did getting some of Tesla's brushes to appear out of the end of an iron wire coil.  It's weird.  Cold flows into cold.  Whereas  heat flows out of heat.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Charlie_V on November 13, 2008, 03:34:28 PM
So Eric Dollard is who I should look for?  Is he still around and active in research? 

By the way, I have no idea what you just said.  Where is this gas ionizing - around the wires?  In my setup I don't see any ionization.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Charlie_V on November 13, 2008, 03:53:10 PM
After looking Dollard up, I have seen his videos before.  Although I have never seen him light incandescent light bulbs, his explanations as to how Tesla did wireless transmission of power seems incorrect to me.  He claims they are longitudinal waves because you can shield the Tesla coil with a Faraday cage and the waves still penetrate.  He doesn't (or atleast didn't at the time of the video) realize that the waves are traveling through the ground plane connected to his coil.  Standing waves have a longitudinal component that seems to be ignored.  But if your operating frequency is outside the bandwidth of your ground plane, you will not develop standing waves and won't produce a longitudinal component (in the ground atleast).  Instead you'll be able to couple to the reactive power transverse waves that travel through the ground connection but that die off with distance. 

I also measure a 1.5 speed of light propagation but I'm almost positive this is not the speed that the information/power would travel at.  Since these are quarter wave resonators, they will take time to respond to modulations in the signal because they have a ring down time.  So although the speed of the wave appears to be 1.5c, the group velocity is 0.667c, so that the phase velocity times the group velocity still equals c^2.  I intend on investigating this because it is weird that a standing wave would propagate at 1.5c.   
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: sparks on November 13, 2008, 04:16:03 PM
    I guess just google Eric Dollard.  I believe we are not going to see any coronal activity around this top coil as long as the surfaces are smooth.    This is all experimental on my end so don't pay too much attention.  I'm  just thinking aloud.  I do see a possiblity of maintaining a positively charged ion field which will act as a concentrator of drift electrons.  The maintenance of this plasmic field requring less energy than that energy drawn towards the field.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Charlie_V on November 13, 2008, 05:30:02 PM
Actually that's an interesting idea Sparks.  Because if you could do that you might be able to tap into the ionosphere (assuming your setup was outside and large enough).  Tesla's system has so many applications its almost infinite!
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Gothic on November 13, 2008, 09:24:04 PM
HV Wiki, neet stuff here http://wiki.4hv.org/index.php/ScanTesla
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on November 14, 2008, 12:53:11 AM
WOAH!

didnt notice how many posts there were on here lately,  sorry I havent been on the site in a little bit.

CharlieV

The power transfer is a cool concept, but I have never seen very many successful demonstrations of it. Also, as per the quote I put up earlier...."So if you are doing that game resistively you’re immediately restricted by very severe limitations" The incandesent light bulb is a resistive element, and so not the greatest load to demonstrate the power of reactive power! The main reason I chose lightbulbs was because it was a simple visual that many people could pick up off the shelf. but it is FAR from ideal.

If you want a cool experiment, I would try the followig. If you have a DC input tesla coil, fire it up. Measure its power draw durring opperation. Then build some sort of tuned circuit to "collect" the power from that coil, it can even be close, maybe a couple inches away (if there are no sparks) you could use this tuned cirucit to light a bulb. The point of this demonstration will NOT be distance or efficiency of transfer, forget that for now. The thing to take note of is the power draw to the coil. When you have the bulb bright.......does the power draw go up to the coil???  I have personally witnessed (because I made it myself) setups where input decreases as its loaded! this will be shown in the presentations later on down the line.

Also, check out peter lindemans thread on Energetic forum, his motor demonstrated is the very begining of a concept that can be used to make awesome reactive loads. I even commented on it recently and lindeman wrote back, its on the last page.
ill post it here and leave a link as well....

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/271-electric-motor-secrets-35.html (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/271-electric-motor-secrets-35.html)

"Originally Posted by Armagdn03 
I rarely, post..... and Personally im no motor builder, but I think something is being missed by most on this thread.

I have read several people ask about generators, however the motor in its present incarnation is not all it could be, this is most likely to get the home experimenter comfortable with the basics before moving on.

Take for example an AC generator, with field windings, and permanent magnets on the rotor. The field windings could easily be wound into an LC circuit making the motor supposedly run on reactive power. However, what is not immediately obvious is that the rotation of the rotor will impart upon the filed windings an EMF from the magnets directly related to its rotational speed and the number of poles on the rotor. This counter emf per lenz law will create a frequency within the LC at varying speeds (depending on rev-up, down, loading, etc) which will not match its resonant frequency, hence hindering the resonant rise, Q, and overal efficiency of the motor. However if you had a lenz less motor, the result would be a rotation caused by the driving circuit independent of a generated EMF due to the rotation of the rotor. Such a motor could be run by a resonant circuit, returning all power given to it back to the source, in this case, the source might locally constitute a capacitor with an impedance matching the drive coils for a particular frequency. This tank circuit would be allowed to oscillate freely, without having to worry about any stray emf frequencies created by the rotor.

This cannot be easily applied in its present form to the current motor as it stands. The rotation of the current model is dependent on the position of the rotor with respect to the pole projections of the stator. This means that frequency of operation within the drive coils is dependent on rotor speed, meaning it too is tied down to rev-ups, downs, variable loading etc. In order to reach a reactive state at a particular frequency, the rotor would have to spin at a very specific speed.

Also noted, is that the inductive properties of this motor change constantly! which is terrible for such a design. Hence the fact that it is a variable reluctance motor. This property too is detrimental to reactive conditions.

BUT! it has one of the problems solved, and clever geometries and tricks can solve other problems. Such as reactive rotors (Tesla has patented them) constant reluctance rotors (would need a simulated rotating field, where poles switch at a phase less than 180 degrees) and other ideas come to mind.

What you were all given is gold, but it is far from where it could be, and I get a sneaking suspicion that the only thing that is holding Dr Lindeman back from advancing ideas publicly at this point is the overall comprehension, i.e. no point in leaving people behind at this point.

Get clever with similar concepts and you can apply it all to solid state as well, leaving behind the need for kinetic power supplies.
(like I said im no motor builder........ )

And thank you Dr. Lindeman for your work teaching, and taking the time help people out. I have given you an unfair shake in the past.

Dear Armagdn03,

Thank you for your kind and insightful remarks. With regard to your post about the Jim Murray Generator design, I have known Jim Murray for 20 years and we published this patent in Borderland Magazine back in the 1980's. All of the people I worked with in Santa Barbara, including Mike Knox, Eric Dollard, and Chris Carson, met with Jim Murray a number of times after I moved away in 1992. Jim and Eric subsequently solved the solid-state method for converting reactive power back to real power using Jim's methods applied to Eric's FOUR QUADRANT THEORY of electric waves. All of these things you mention have already been accomplished.

While Jim has built working models of this generator, getting all of the electrical and physical resonances in phase is tricky. The machine does NOT exhibit drag free operation until these conditions are all balanced and synchronized. Still and all, it does PROVE that electric motors and generators are NOT converting mechanical energy into electrical energy. The First Law of Thermodynamics does not apply to properly built motors and generators. For those of us who know the truth, this is not a problem.

As you have correctly stated, there is little purpose showing more precise theory in a forum like this when the model building difficulty only gets worse than what has already been shown. I will tell you plainly, however, that the CONSTANT RELUCTANCE MOTOR is the ticket and special geometries are the method of accomplishment. When the reluctance does not change at all during the power stroke, then the inductance of the circuit remains relatively constant as well. This allows for the design of a true, constant speed, synchronous motor that produces maximum mechanical power on 95% reactive power and about 5% real power. This allows a COP=20 operation as technically feasible.
For those who are interested, here is a link to a rare film of Jim Murray speaking on the history of his work. Most of the concepts are quite beyond the beginner level, and the cinematography is D-, but the information is A+++.

Enjoy.

Jim Murray

Peter"

http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/271-electric-motor-secrets-35.html (http://www.energeticforum.com/renewable-energy/271-electric-motor-secrets-35.html)





Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: amigo on November 14, 2008, 03:25:17 AM
I believe I posted the link to Jim Murray video sometime ago either here or in the Energetic Forum. In any case that's not important, the link did not come across in the post from armagdn03 so here it is again for those interested (I'd say everyone should watch it):

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=6761827664845630969&hl=en
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Charlie_V on November 14, 2008, 02:51:43 PM
Quote
The incandesent light bulb is a resistive element, and so not the greatest load to demonstrate the power of reactive power!

Yea I agree with you here, but I chose the incandescent light bulb because it can show that it is conveying real usable power (in the conventional sense) - aka its not powering a florescent light bulb which can basically be turned on by anything high voltage.  I haven't looked to see what the load draw is (on my to do list) but it appears to be rather efficient (depending on how well tuned the circuits are of course). 

The collection method you are referring to is what they are doing at MIT right now - resonantly coupling with the magnetic fields.  So far they can only get a resistive load to light at about 3 meters I think.  I do want to try this but for right now I'm experimenting with the ground waves.  My light bulb only turns on when it is hooked to the same ground as the transmitter.  I'm interested in this because it is a completely overlooked form of energy propagation.  Plus I want to see how far the distance is when both transmitter and receiver are connected to an earth ground.  Theoretically you should be able to power loads in China with a generator/transmitter here in the US.  This is the goal I'm working toward at the moment - only smaller.  It would be nice to deliver industrial levels of power to things a few miles away using only the earth ground as your connection.  At 750kHz, I'm not sure how far my receiver will collect the energy - I'm hoping for atleast a few 100 ft. 

As for motors and generators, one of my goals (along with alot of other people) is to develop a lenzless operation.  Ha maybe someday!  I'd like to read about Jim Murray generator.  Where can I learn about that?

Charlie
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: sparks on November 14, 2008, 05:12:49 PM
     Another thing Tesla teaches in his own parculiar way is the dragless alternator.
The load on the prime mover in an alternator occurs when the stator winding magnetic field opposes the rotor magnetic field.  On a revolving field alternator a continous dc supply at various current levels corresponding to the load requirements is utlized.  The magnetic field resulting from the steel polarization induces a voltage in the stator windings.  The prime mover doesn't load up (small load from steel electrostriction) until current is drawn from the windings because this load CURRENT produces an opposing magnetic field to that of the rotor.  Now if some attention was paid to when you pull the current from the voltage generated in the stator conductors and when the rotor is energised or pulsed (reluctance and retainance of the rotor needs to be controlled)  we could save alot of prime mover fuel.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: amigo on November 15, 2008, 09:50:02 PM
Charlie_V

In the video link I posted, start watching from 40' mark, if you do not have time to see the whole thing (though I suggest watching from the beginning).

I believe that the real "meat and potatoes" we need to understand start at 40', and up to 50' of that video, in relation to Tesla and things in general pertaining to our research.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Groundloop on December 14, 2008, 10:34:00 AM
@Wattsup,

Regrading the circuit problem we discussed. I think I have a solution for your circuit.
The attached circuit uses two 3 ampere reed relays to switch the transformer to
and from the input. The relay coil must be as high DC ohm as possible so that the
coil will switch the reed relays but not use much extra power from the input.

I hope that this was what your where looking for.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on December 14, 2008, 08:05:58 PM
Hello everybody

I am really impressed seeing the work of Gotoluc, and the ideas people are coming up with. I personally think its important to know what you are dealing with before you start using the concepts in design, and that’s what seems to be happening.

Groundloop and Wattsup

the circuit that was posted above is a clever one, and has been tried (with respect to the oscillator triggering the circuit controller) and I think its possible to pull off, but mechanically it’s a  bit hard. The reason being that the response of the reed switch is somewhat slow. Meaning what you need is the controller to pulse at the perfect time to re-enforce the previous train of waves, but the switch in this case will always be off by a bit. And since it is triggering itself it can be a self defeating cycle, unless play with the phase a bit for adjustment. Definitely on the right track and that circuit is doable.
The importance isn’t necessarily in the components used, or  the exact configuration, it’s the circuit triggering itself.

Keep up the good stuff.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: ramset on December 14, 2008, 08:18:33 PM
Armagdn03
 Thank you for your input
Can you suggest a faster [more appropriate] trigger system
  Chet
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on December 14, 2008, 09:04:57 PM
you can use what you have, just adjust the phase of the pulse, many ways to acomplish this. Or you can go solid state, hall effect sensors, trigger coils, etc. Even with these, you may need to adjust phase. Just think the problem through logically, what is your end goal, and will your setup create the conditions to get that? If you are just throwing things together to see what will happen, you obviously cannot do this, but you may still learn alot! In that case ask, what happened, and how did my setup create the conditions for that to happen?

Sorry if thats a bit of a duh awnser. But I have definitly spent nights wondering what the hell was happening, and reverse engineering the logic behind what I saw.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: ramset on December 14, 2008, 09:20:23 PM
Armagdn03
Thankyou for the responce !!
Always look forward to your posts
Chet
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Groundloop on December 14, 2008, 10:13:05 PM
@armagdn03,

The circuit I posted is one solution to the problem of energizing a coil and then totally disconnect the input
source forcing the coil to put the back the emf voltage to the output.  When I talked to Wattsup I got the impression
that the circuit should work this way. I looked into solid states ways to do this but I soon realized that we
have no components (as far as I know) that can fully be insulated between the source voltage and output. There will
always be some small leakage that will dampen the high Z situation we want the coil to be in when not energizing
the coil. I looked into transistors, mosfets, igbts, thyristors, diode solutions and hexfets. I found that all of these
components would not suit this circuit. I then researched mechanical ways to do it. I found that ordinary relays
was to sluggis and slow and there was no certain way to control the switch on time and the switch off time of
different relays. I then looked at rotary switches and found that the power to operate such devices will be higher
than the gain in the output, so I dismissed the thought. I still wanted to find a way to test this theory so I ended
up with reed relays. I have found that the reed relay type proposed has a very linear switch time. I have tested
this relay in small pulse motors and have found that the relay is capable of switching at a relative high speed.
I realize that a relay will never be fast enough to fully insulate the transformer when the magnetic field flips around
and the back emf generated voltage starts to climb, but maybe this circuit will show the effect? The speed of
the bemfv flip can be controlled with a non polarized capacitor across the transformer primary winding. I estimate
that if we slow the transformer down by making a LC circuit on the primary that is approximately 10 times slower
than the reed relays capability to switch, then maybe we can get some useful power out of the transformer, or at
least be able to demonstrate the effect in question?

Groundloop.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Groundloop on December 15, 2008, 12:57:33 AM
@Wattsup,

Attached is a circuit solution that MAY work.

The proposed circuit works like this:

When the operator provide a positive pulse to the optocoupler then the hexfet transistor will close.
This will give a positive bias to the bottom SCR and the SCR will close. This will enable the top SCR
to close also since there is a path for the current to flow. The current will now flow through the transformer.
The operator then switch off the control voltage to the optocoupler and the hexfet transistor will open.
This will remove the current to the circuit and both SCRs will stop conducting current and switch off again.
The SCRs will stay switched off until the operator again triggers the optocoupler. As long as the SCRs is
switched off the transformer coil will be free to oscillate at high Z.

If we get a small feed back from the output of the transformer then it is possible to use solid state electronics
or a micro controller to switch the input in phase with the oscillations in the transformer. The feed back is not shown in this drawing.

Groundloop.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on December 15, 2008, 01:00:53 AM
@all

Yes, @Groundloops diagram with the two reeds is an attempt to replace the relay I used in the Trail #3 Erfinder Circuit attempt that is on this thread located here;
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3972.msg77661#msg77661

On the same thread I have already tested @allcanadian circuit with reeds here;
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3972.msg129277#msg129277

Also on this thread I tested a dual transformer pulsing with two 3-way reeds here;
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=3972.msg84982#msg84982
This one was totally a blast to do because by placing the reeds at the right positions they where mutually pulsing the other. Very interesting but slow.

I had asked @Groundloop to look for a way to quickly cut off the positive and negative because according to my previous Trial #3 tests, the voltage rise on the secondary was very interesting indeed but limited by the relatively low pulsing frequency. The reason to look for another way is to reach frequency levels that would permit pulsing at the resonant level of the transformers primary, but instead of using a FG like shown by @armagedn03, using a cutoff that would sever completely the transformers leads hence the potential for return current, thinking that this would leave no other choice for the flyback but to push higher energy through the laminated core and transfer to the secondary.

I would like to thank @Groundloop since he was good enough to look at this question and unfortunately, it seems this is one thing we cannot do, that is to have a EE component that can do a 100% open circuit at frequencies in the range of 50k to 250k which is the range I have seen most of the coils to be at resonance. Hmmmmm. Is it possible that there is something EE cannot do? lol

So now I am thinking that if the resonance frequency is relative to coil size, then I would need a very very big transformer in order to match its resonant frequency with that of the fastest available 100% switching speeds.

But here is a question that may sound crazy but guys doing the @armagdn03 resonant test will know more about. Well we know with the resonance tests that the series bulb is lit when the LC circuit is NOT in resonance, and the bulb goes off when the circuit IS in resonance. Lite on, lite off. Isn't that a switch in itself? Just asking. But if an LC circuit could go in and out of resonance as fast as 50kHz, would this be another way of switching? You take a FG to find and maintain a resonant frequency and use a transistor to pulse that frequency on and off. How instant can a resonance be established in a coil would then be the limiting factor. Maybe opening up a whole new can of worms and a new set of problems. Hmmmmmm.

Added:

@GL just saw your new post, will look it over and let you know. Thanks.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on December 15, 2008, 03:09:24 AM
What is being argued could be filed under "improvements upon switching systems" or something similar.

Even if you have a sub par switching system, it can achieve the goal of supposed over unity. The real concept to grasp is how to use resonant conditions in the generation and use of power systems. It has been proven beyond argument that the conversion between energy forms is not always a linearly described system. The confusion arises with conversion ratios that supposedly dictate transducer transformation properties, i.e. watts to lumens, watts to horsepower etc.

To groundloops point, even a battery unconnected to any "load" will have leakage between terminals..........yes this is to be avoided, but it is not one of the primary things that should be considered when trying to create such systems.

For example, say your system is 1.2 cop. if left in "avalanche" (sorry to throw out an EE term) mode that .2  above unity can constitute a huge amount of power depending on input.........since its a circular feedback the input could start out small and grow along with output.  If your system is 100 cop, it would happen much quicker and be much more efficient, but both will work to demonstrate concept.

Dont worry about improving upon switching mechanisms when the machine around which they have been built have not been shown.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Groundloop on December 15, 2008, 08:05:17 AM
@armagdn03,

>>What is being argued could be filed under "improvements upon switching systems" or something similar.
>>Dont worry about improving upon switching mechanisms when the machine around which they have been built have not been shown.

If this is just a theoretical discussion thread about Tesla? Am I wasting time trying to find a switching solution to Wattsup circuit?

Groundloop.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: armagdn03 on December 15, 2008, 10:41:58 PM
Nonot at all, sorry if it came off that way, im just sayig dont get boged down in the details, big picture thinking, Actually being able to switch ac is very useful, and the optocoupled scr is something that can be bought in a package form or made with mosfets without freewheel diodes
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Kator01 on December 16, 2008, 01:24:36 AM
Hi Folks,

never ever place a MOSFET in a switching circuit in this configuration.

Please see attached pic I had sent to another user for the cap-switch-experiment

I have to add : .... increasing voltage at the inductor.

I will not argue on this. This is electronic-basics.

The gate-source-level must no be reduced by rising up the ground-level which will happen because of the reluctance of the coil.

Best Regards

Kator01
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: wattsup on December 16, 2008, 07:17:51 AM
@Groundloop

I understand fully what @armagdn03 is saying and I am glad he explained it because I was at a loss to know what to say. For me I was sure he did not mean to stop this or that but to keep in mind the ultimate goal.

Also, for me, the idea of building a device then hoping that the required switching system can just materialize is not a sound method.

Thanks for the last diagram. I am trying to get my head into the circuit but am having some trouble.
In your description you mention an optocoupler, a hexfet and two scrs but I only see one scr which is the IRL540N.

Also, I think @kator01 was referring to the 4N32 saying it should be on the ground side. I have used the IRF840 on the positive line with good results, maybe this is also good for the circuit.


Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Groundloop on December 16, 2008, 07:35:10 AM
@wattsup,

The IRL540N is a hexfet. The two SCRs is the BT151.

It is possible to use an hexfet at the positive line in this case because the
powering of the gate is relative to the transistor inside the opto coupler.
The back emf generated voltage from the coil is a problem, yes, but
is is my hope that this will not be a problem in this circuit because the SCR
will be closed when the back emf voltage goes negative. So when we shut off
the hexfet then the current through the coil will stop. Both SCRs will go
open circuit and no back emf voltage can or will be coupled back to the input.
The biggest problem as I see it is how to get both SCRs to start conducting
current. Even if we trigger the gates on the SCRs with a positive voltage,
then there is no positive voltage potential in the coil so the lowest (in the drawing)
SCR will not close to carry current because the top (in the drawing) SCR is not
closed yet. It is a catch 22 situation.  So, how can be give a small positive bias
to the coil without "destroying" the intention of the circuit? That is the question.
I will look into this and see if there is a solution.

Regards,
Groundloop.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: scotty1 on December 16, 2008, 07:57:25 AM
Hi all.
I recommend you study Tesla's writings on current interrupters.
You will find that Tesla never found an optimum spark gap device.
Of course if you vibrate the whole Earth then the spark gap losses are nothing  ;)
The reason the spark gap is never perfect is because of the way the charge builds up.
Tesla wanted to discharge through a medium that would crack like glass to let the energy pass, but he found that there was always a slow build up, then a sudden build up which caused the arc.
It was this problem that Tesla was trying to solve with the magnetic quench system.

I read articles from tfcbooks.com, so the info is probably there.
There is a paper on current interrupters there but i think there is other info in a different article also.
Scotty.
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on December 17, 2008, 03:49:55 PM
"Resonance" is only a means to obtain very high voltage.

TFC Books has a book that details a lengthy interview between Tesla and his Attorneys:
http://www.tfcbooks.com/tesla/nt_on_ac.htm

On page 100 of that book Tesla states the following:

Quote
There are two ways in which you can operate if you have a reciever of that kind.  (Tesla is refering to his system depicted in patent 645,576) One is by linking, closely, your working circuit with the primary excited circuit.  The other is by linking it loosely, and then working up the pressure by resonance.  You will find that you can do much better, if you have such a device, to produce the necessary pressure by turns, than by resonant rise, because if you want to excite it by resonance you have to link only a few lines; start with a very low electromotive force and work it up.  But, if you have such a device as I have described, you can obtain any pressure you like by a few secondary turns.  I have invented such an instrument and have demonstrated its efficacy.

So, just like Richard Hull found out in his own experiments, resonant rise will only get you so far.  It's just a means to an end, and not necessarily the best means.


Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: sparks on December 17, 2008, 05:05:09 PM
@Grumpy


      And the device he describes? A mobius bifilar coil secondary with a two turn primary?
Title: Re: The Tesla Project
Post by: Grumpy on December 17, 2008, 07:15:38 PM
@Grumpy


      And the device he describes? A mobius bifilar coil secondary with a two turn primary?

No, just a pancake coil Tesla Transformer - two coil version - not the magnifier.