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### Author Topic: The Tesla Project  (Read 240959 times)

#### armagdn03

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 441
##### Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #150 on: March 11, 2008, 03:08:33 PM »
Had a major DOH! moment because I thought that the tuned LC circuit was between the primary of the transformer and the cap.

either way .... I am not giving up ... fact is I cant stop thinking about this

Cheers

Hello again!

Thought I would chime in unwantedly, lol. Perhaps you should re-think your doh! moment, there is a tuned LC circuit between the primary of the transformer and the condenser L.  Who is to say that there is not another tuned LC circuit somewhere else? Say inbetween system of high self inductance and condenser L. Whose to say that these two LC's are not harmonically related also?

Think about the interplay of opposites, think about the different configurations of LC's you can have, and how they have been manifested and used in this circuit. What are their mathematical relationships, as in what is considered an opposite mathematically, inverses? (^-1)?

If you think of this system (as a whole) as a giant pendulum we can quickly see that all charge "movement" is just an interplay between two conditions. No these conditions are not positive and negative in the traditional sense. A pendulum dropped from a height will have a forward movement, we could call this positive, and it will soon reverse we could call this negative, but we could also look at the potential and kinetic energies at different locations, realize they are opposites and also realize that it is in fact an interplay between these two elements that creates the condition of oscillation.

also to clarify with the heterodyne issue, when Tesla said "generally there is an oscillation superimposed upon the fundamental vibration of the current." he may have been talking about a condition known today as resonant rise, where  plucks of a string may give rise to resonance, and if timed correctly, the amplitude will start to grow. This may be my own twisted definition, so take from it what you will.

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1317
##### Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #151 on: March 11, 2008, 05:10:44 PM »
@Armagdn03
Quote
"generally there is an oscillation superimposed upon the fundamental vibration of the current."
I read this statement a little differently, I see the fundamental vibration as Einsteins "quanta" that is at the smallest level energy will move in descreet pieces, most likely at the rate of vibration in the matter of the source.The superimposed oscillation is what we would measure as a changing current which we have produced, I cannot help but think that if these two frequencies (fundamental and superimposed) should coincide at super high frequencies or a harmonic thereof that we would see a "resonant rise", as we would be in "tune" with nature. So we agree!
I would also agree that anywhere we see an inductance and capacitance we will have interaction.

I think this statement is very relative to the secondaries of our circuit, fundamentally matter must vibrate at super high frequencies, as well matter is bound by very high electrostatic charges. So if we are to "interact" with matter to produce a resonant rise we must produce resonant conditions, that is currents of high frequency and potential. In this case the Primary/Secondaries could be considered the "other" power source in this circuit, the resonant rise in the secondaries gives the primary a "kick" and this kick helps maintain the current oscillation in the circuit as a whole.
To simplify things I consider the large self-inductance as having the properties of a large flywheel of great mass (inertia) and the secondaries as having the properties of a small flywheel of relatively small inertia but great velocity. In this context we could say a small flywheel at great velocity can have the same energy as a large flywheel at low velocity but the small flywheel will accept rapid accelerations/decelerations more easily---- such as required for a resonant rise condition. Could this be Tesla's means of producing "undampened waves"?

P.S.--- some of you may have noticed that as inductance is added to L1 the voltage and duration of the oscillations is increased and as the capacitance C is reduced the frequency of oscillation is increased. So it would make sense that we would want to maximize one and minimize the other.
« Last Edit: March 11, 2008, 05:33:02 PM by allcanadian »

#### Localjoe

• Hero Member
• Posts: 812
##### Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #152 on: March 11, 2008, 10:55:33 PM »

you wrote

"P.S.--- some of you may have noticed that as inductance is added to L1 the voltage and duration of the oscillations is increased and as the capacitance C is reduced the frequency of oscillation is increased. So it would make sense that we would want to maximize one and minimize the other."

In patent 568 178

It shows letter E which is a choking coil attached directly to L1 Has a iron bar incert for the center allowing one to change the inductance or vary it .  This may prove useful to implment in 568,177
It should save one from winding different coils for the desired effect, the cap you will have to change too but at least you can test a wide range of inductances with a The same cap and move onto another for comparison. Just a thought.
Joe

#### barbosi

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 261
##### Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #153 on: March 12, 2008, 12:21:52 AM »
Good suggestion.
However, beside the variable inductance does anyone notice any other difference between patents? Not a big deal but just for a change and not to fall in love with a stereotype, please notice it is possible also like that. Erfinder said that seems we cannot get passed from charging-discharging a capacitor. My question is not a pointer but just a small variation.

I was staring at the picture you have posted at http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3972.msg80679.html#msg80679 and if I recall correctly there was at least one of your past pictures including the diode like that.
I have to admit I don't get it. This is what you propose? To me it is counter productive so if you have a point, can you please elaborate?

#### Localjoe

• Hero Member
• Posts: 812
##### Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #154 on: March 12, 2008, 12:46:14 AM »

In building this project i  think theres a reason he states to use a motor for L1  other than the syncronos timing / Plucking of the working primary circuit lc circuit.
The inductance in L1 is the motor coil windings, he also states you can add an additional choking coil to reach your desired result, I still think the device from the next patent is a good idea but maybe the action of the motor and its coils has someting to do with.
When its up to speed it doesent stop spinning when the current is broke maybe a slight deceleration but neglibale so i guess im just saying it might have something to do with the fundamental vibration of the circuit and when the cap discharges through the primary coil and then to the motor that could be viewed as a superimposed osicalation. Is anyone else using a motor in there primary timing circuit?
Joe

#### armagdn03

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 441
##### Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #155 on: March 12, 2008, 03:21:32 AM »
@Armagdn03
Quote
"generally there is an oscillation superimposed upon the fundamental vibration of the current."
I read this statement a little differently, I see the fundamental vibration as Einsteins "quanta" that is at the smallest level energy will move in descreet pieces, most likely at the rate of vibration in the matter of the source.The superimposed oscillation is what we would measure as a changing current which we have produced, I cannot help but think that if these two frequencies (fundamental and superimposed) should coincide at super high frequencies or a harmonic thereof that we would see a "resonant rise", as we would be in "tune" with nature. So we agree!
I would also agree that anywhere we see an inductance and capacitance we will have interaction.

I think this statement is very relative to the secondaries of our circuit, fundamentally matter must vibrate at super high frequencies, as well matter is bound by very high electrostatic charges. So if we are to "interact" with matter to produce a resonant rise we must produce resonant conditions, that is currents of high frequency and potential. In this case the Primary/Secondaries could be considered the "other" power source in this circuit, the resonant rise in the secondaries gives the primary a "kick" and this kick helps maintain the current oscillation in the circuit as a whole.
To simplify things I consider the large self-inductance as having the properties of a large flywheel of great mass (inertia) and the secondaries as having the properties of a small flywheel of relatively small inertia but great velocity. In this context we could say a small flywheel at great velocity can have the same energy as a large flywheel at low velocity but the small flywheel will accept rapid accelerations/decelerations more easily---- such as required for a resonant rise condition. Could this be Tesla's means of producing "undampened waves"?

P.S.--- some of you may have noticed that as inductance is added to L1 the voltage and duration of the oscillations is increased and as the capacitance C is reduced the frequency of oscillation is increased. So it would make sense that we would want to maximize one and minimize the other.

Quanata? fundamental frequency? I hope you are yankin my chain as it were! the fundamental vibration is given by the well known equations for determining the ressonant frequency of LC circuits. The imposed frequency is a hamonic provided by the circuit controller affecting the coil of high self inductance. Why are we complicating things again? hmmmm

And.....Tesla states what the device in question on 177 is for, there should be no arguement. Come on now guys.

#### quantum1024

• Newbie
• Posts: 47
##### Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #156 on: March 12, 2008, 12:03:46 PM »
Sorry, going to interrupt here, my spark gap is firing -- lol

There are so many variations upon this LCR theme it?s hard not to consider that there may be unseen and unknown variables still available to play with. What is also nice is the fact that all modern computer power supplies (hint- high voltage components, caps, transformers, etc?), discarded electronic devices have a large assortment of components  ready for experimentation.

I have pretty much read everything that Tesla has written and spoke of, he always seems too mention the three main components together, namely LCR. I have read it, however understanding it is something else Tesla is an ENIGMA in the highest form.

I absolutely agree with your statement that ?fundamentally matter must vibrate at super high frequencies; as well matter is bound by very high electrostatic charges.?

Matter is held by atomic forces but wiggles and deforms under pressure, while maintaining stability of some form atomically. Electrostatic charges are purely electrons and ions, non atomic per say (not held as rigidly to the atom, free to exchange). At absolute pressures and temperatures matter breaks down.

As a simple thought experiment, picture induction heating. An open secondary coil that will heat a piece of steel to red or even white hot through induction when inserted. The electrons are moving so rapidly that the atomic structure is starting to feel the strain, in this example both temperature and charge moment (together with eddy currents) create the right conditions for a semi atomic breakdown/meltdown. It can no longer handle holding things together very well. It could be thought that this condition is a resonant condition between the coil and the material being heated. Steel, in this case resists the current and hence gets hot.

As for the undampend waves, I have a funny feeling that he?s referring to the longitudinal wave in motion. The longitudinal wave is a single impulse that has long range. In multitudes (pulses) within a coil, it flows like DC with little resistance or inductive reactance.

@Barbosi --- we cannot get passed from charging-discharging a capacitor
Put interrupter circuit or mechanical interrupter in parallel with the output capacitor, allow cap to charge then discharge after some interval to the load.

@armagdn03 --- I know, I couldn?t help myself?lol

This now ends the spark gap firing sequence.. Thank you for your attention?would someone please up the voltage now!

#### armagdn03

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 441
##### Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #157 on: March 12, 2008, 02:15:48 PM »
there is not fundamental frequency of matter, period.  As it stands there are multiple "base" particles, off the top of my head, electrons, muons, taos, electron neutrinos, muon neutrinos, tao neutrinos, up quarks, down quarks, top quarks bottom quarks......yadda yadda yadda. You will not find a fundamental frequency, no matter how hard you try, Keely gave up at the "infinite ninths" and he was further than modern physicists!

IF we are talking about Tesla, lets talk about what Tesla said! Yes he used 3 main components, and he gave us precise instructions on how to use them, there is no enigma! How about we back up all conjecture from now on with either experimental evidence or written text from the masters. This stuff just subtracts. Tesla didnt even speak of electrons! He had a unifying theory that included Gravity! He did not agree with Einstein! Einstein died frustrated because he could not solve his own dilemma!

#### Grumpy

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 2247
##### Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #158 on: March 12, 2008, 02:50:50 PM »
Tesla's means for producing undamped waves is "shock" or "impulse" excitation - just like ringing a bell or tuning fork.

This initial impulse for excitation can be produced by the discharge of a condenser or collapse of the magnetic field of an inductor - Tesla preferred the condenser.

An "undamped wave" is just that - a wave that continuous to oscillate rather than dying out quickly.  Tesla was able to induce oscillations that he claimed would last for months or even years.

When Tesla got a good handle on quenching of the initial impulse, he found something very interesting...

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1317
##### Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #159 on: March 12, 2008, 05:54:32 PM »
@barbosi
My purpose for the diode was to show builders an easy way to measure the voltage rise through an inductive discharge, this is much easier when there are no oscillations as it can be done with a multi-meter on the capacitor. It was not meant to be a permanent fixture in this circuit but could if your purpose was to simply charge a cap to high voltage, one impulse in my setup can charge my cap to 250v from a 12v source.

@armagdn03
I think you may be correct about the fundamental frequency, I took Teslas statement out of the context it was given , however we cannot discount matter as matter determines the properties of LRC. I am trying to keep an open mind to "any" possiblities and state these possiblities for all to consider.
Quote
As it stands there are multiple "base" particles, off the top of my head, electrons, muons, taos, electron neutrinos, muon neutrinos, tao neutrinos, up quarks, down quarks, top quarks bottom quarks......yadda yadda yadda
I would disagree with you here, I don't recall Tesla ever mentioning any of these fantasy particles ,  Tesla and later even Einstien stated that physics had become a delusion having little resemblance to reality, they and many others believed there were only a few basic components that makeup everything and I would tend to agree with them. Lately I read some articles in "discovery" and other places that changed my opinions about Albert Einstien, later in life he admited he was wrong about most of his "theories" but nobody would listen, he was a good man as his goal is our goal---to understand.
So we agree to disagree, I would not have it any other way.

@Grumpy
Quote
This initial impulse for excitation can be produced by the discharge of a condenser or collapse of the magnetic field of an inductor - Tesla preferred the condenser.
An "undamped wave" is just that - a wave that continuous to oscillate rather than dying out quickly.  Tesla was able to induce oscillations that he claimed would last for months or even years.
That's a good description and to the point, this is something I have been trying to understand for a long time, how can oscillations continue for months? Do you have any insight into how such a thing could be done? I can only imagine the implications if we could do this in Teslas circuit.

#### Localjoe

• Hero Member
• Posts: 812
##### Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #160 on: March 12, 2008, 06:18:07 PM »

What did you think of my idea to use the device in the later patent. Is that something you feel would help or clutter your intentions? I dont mean to intrude but im building this along side with my other project and just wanted some real input .  Secondly I'll ask again is anyone else using a dc motor or building one from scratch to match the patent?
Thanks
Joe

#### Frederic2k1

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 90
##### Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #161 on: March 12, 2008, 06:27:59 PM »
Qoute from Grumpy:

An "undamped wave" is just that - a wave that continuous to oscillate rather than dying out quickly.  Tesla was able to induce oscillations that he claimed would last for months or even years.

I wonder if Tesla is using his famous bifilar coils in LCR ? Do you now the genesis project ? They claim, that a bifilar coil is nothing more than a negative inductance and that this coil is the way to soustain an oscillation in a LRC circuit.

#### Grumpy

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 2247
##### Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #162 on: March 12, 2008, 08:58:20 PM »
Collaspe of an energy field into a circuit of negligible impedence produces a shockwave or energy that may reach astronomical amplitudes

More later -got to run

#### armagdn03

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 441
##### Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #163 on: March 13, 2008, 04:07:14 AM »

@armagdn03
I think you may be correct about the fundamental frequency, I took Teslas statement out of the context it was given , however we cannot discount matter as matter determines the properties of LRC. I am trying to keep an open mind to "any" possiblities and state these possiblities for all to consider.
Quote
As it stands there are multiple "base" particles, off the top of my head, electrons, muons, taos, electron neutrinos, muon neutrinos, tao neutrinos, up quarks, down quarks, top quarks bottom quarks......yadda yadda yadda
I would disagree with you here, I don't recall Tesla ever mentioning any of these fantasy particles ,  Tesla and later even Einstien stated that physics had become a delusion having little resemblance to reality, they and many others believed there were only a few basic components that makeup everything and I would tend to agree with them. Lately I read some articles in "discovery" and other places that changed my opinions about Albert Einstien, later in life he admited he was wrong about most of his "theories" but nobody would listen, he was a good man as his goal is our goal---to understand.
So we agree to disagree, I would not have it any other way.

I don't think ill let you disagree with me on that one, lol...............because we agree! My point was that every year the list of subatomic particles grows, while their sizes diminish, bigger smashers are built, more money is spent, and yet we are no closer to the fundamental unit! It is true, Einstein did indeed say he was wrong, and attempted to rectify the solution but was unable to. Nobody seems to be spending money or time on finding a solution to the problem, rather more money is spent on bullheadedly plowing our way in the wrong direction.

If there were one frequency to the fundamental unit of matter, then all matter would be the same element! see what im saying? you aren't off base with the frequency of matter deal, just don't get stuck on thinking there is just one.

#### Grumpy

• TPU-Elite
• Hero Member
• Posts: 2247
##### Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #164 on: March 13, 2008, 04:53:50 AM »
Tesla's means for producing undamped waves is "shock" or "impulse" excitation - just like ringing a bell or tuning fork.

Close enough.....

Tesla used a similar analogy.  He even mentioned the mass of the coil and the density of the medium as factors effecting the oscillation.

This initial impulse for excitation can be produced by the discharge of a condenser or collapse of the magnetic field of an inductor - Tesla preferred the condenser.

The means and end cannot be separated!  A coil of high self-induction is discharged rapidly for the expressed purpose of charging the condenser.  Once the capacitor is filled, it is short circuited through a coil of low self-induction.  Tesla didn't pick and choose favorites between the collapsing field of an inductor and the discharge of a capacitor.  It should be obvious that in his systems he utilized both!!!

I agree that Tesla utilized both, but the necessary energy for the excitation impulse comes from the discharge of the capacitor.   Perhaps this is a matter of perspective.  Which ever form of energy you begin with, it is converted by the elemnt that recieves the impulse.  Erfinder is correct that you can not separate the two - but you can re-arrange them and this is what I'm pointing out.

An "undamped wave" is just that - a wave that continues to oscillate rather than dying out quickly.  Tesla was able to induce oscillations that he claimed would last for months or even years.

When Tesla got a good handle on quenching of the initial impulse, he found something very interesting...

Please remember that Tesla said that in his circuits, (the ones which had the potential to oscillate for long periods of time), the only resistance the currents in these circuits experienced was ohmic resistance!  Imagine that .0001 Ohms.........is the resistance of his circuit for a given conductor length.......with no other opposition, of course the damn thing is going to ring for extremely long periods of time.

Please friends, stop making this hard, its too easy.......

Regards

Start with a more simple circuit - like the "disruptive discharge coil' or "electrostatic induction lighting".

If you take this advice, you will all be better for it.