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Author Topic: The Tesla Project  (Read 185103 times)

Offline wattsup

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Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #120 on: February 29, 2008, 05:35:33 PM »
@AC

If I compare my last diagram to what you have shown, I think that is pretty much what we are doing, but in your diagram, where would you put the coil for the relay as this also has to be inline or is it L1. Don't forget we are using a relay coil, a choke coil and a primary coil of a transformer. Also, there is no way this will work at very fast frequencies on the relay side since the contacts will not go to the NO side. Also, in the tests with fast relay movement, the common terminal is not really contacting well even to the NC side and there is no power production at all. This indicates that when Tesla was doing this with his physical rotary contacts, regardless of the speed he used, he would always get open and closed conditions at each interval, thus pushing the circuit with full force. That rotary must have made some nice sparks. Doing this with a relay too fast is like maintaining the common terminal in an almost floating state between both NC and NO contacts. So there is some give and take that you have to do to get it to work properly. This weekend I will put my scope on the relay and take a photo to post here so you can maybe tell me what is going on in terms of timing, etc. I will make sure to have at least two spikes in the photo and provide you with the scope settings.

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Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #120 on: February 29, 2008, 05:35:33 PM »

Offline allcanadian

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Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #121 on: February 29, 2008, 05:57:51 PM »
@wattsup
The relay coil is a high self-inductance coil so realistically there is only one place it can go and that is next to the choking coil, so yes the relay coil is part of L1.My relay is switching about 30 cps with a very small cap in parallel with the relay, what has not been mentioned is that the relay has a spring on it as well, which can be loosened so the relay contact does hit the NO contact. If you bend the NO, NC contacts inward the rate is fairly fast and both contacts work. I could not use the relay as it was and had to do a little tweaking to get it setup.

Offline armagdn03

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Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #122 on: February 29, 2008, 06:40:58 PM »
@Erfinder


Your indication of running a motor to run a generator has not fallen on deaf ears. I have plenty of dc motors with a wide range of voltage and amperage values and I can set this up rather quickly. I am thinking a small 90 volts 1 amp motor should do fine as a drive and use a 24 volts 20 amp motor as a generator.


Woah! I dont ever remember erfinder saying that this thing should be connected to a generator, I believe what he said was

"A motor which produces USABLE TORQUE, and an ELECTRICAL OUTPUT.   Unfortunately no one is interested.  For some reason no one can seem to see past charging capacitors and batteries.   Undecided "

@alcadian!

Nice description of how currents of high frequency and high potential are created!!!! You made me smile big!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The reason I like that so damn much, is because you are leaving the "lets randomly put things here, here and here, and see what happens" and are entering the world of understanding why it was built, and how the effects wanted are achieved! I also liked your picture, it looks almost exactly like the first one I ever drew of this patent ways back, but without two controllers.

Its not enough to simply know what a component does! You have to know why it does it, and how it does it. Understand every facet of the things you are working with! Im not gonna do long write ups on how I see components working, so you can either find it out for yourself, or you can ask someone personally.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #122 on: February 29, 2008, 06:40:58 PM »
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Offline armagdn03

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Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #123 on: February 29, 2008, 06:41:37 PM »
@Erfinder


Your indication of running a motor to run a generator has not fallen on deaf ears. I have plenty of dc motors with a wide range of voltage and amperage values and I can set this up rather quickly. I am thinking a small 90 volts 1 amp motor should do fine as a drive and use a 24 volts 20 amp motor as a generator.


Woah! I dont ever remember erfinder saying that this thing should be connected to a generator, I believe what he said was

"A motor which produces USABLE TORQUE, and an ELECTRICAL OUTPUT.   Unfortunately no one is interested.  For some reason no one can seem to see past charging capacitors and batteries.   Undecided "

@alcadian!

Nice description of how currents of high frequency and high potential are created!!!! You made me smile big!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
The reason I like that so damn much, is because you are leaving the "lets randomly put things here, here and here, and see what happens" and are entering the world of understanding why it was built, and how the effects wanted are achieved! I also liked your picture, it looks almost exactly like the first one I ever drew of this patent ways back, but without two controllers.

Its not enough to simply know what a component does! You have to know why it does it, and how it does it. Understand every facet of the things you are working with! Im not gonna do long write ups on how I see components working, so you can either find it out for yourself, or you can ask someone personally.

Offline Ren

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Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #124 on: March 01, 2008, 12:42:33 AM »
@ Erfinder. I do apologize for my Bedini remarks in my last post. My intention was never to lead this thread astray but rather to discuss or provoke thought into how the power collected in the secondary circuit could be used, and HOW it should be used i.e. pulsing etc. The thing is the monopole can be designed for useable torque and electrical output, but I wont bother bringing any of this up in this thread.

I was a little confused and perhaps you will enlighten me  (or not) as to your comment here.

"You are suppose to be charging this cap and discharging it into the primary of a transformer!"

I first assumed that you were reffering in this instance to the larger capacitor represented in the original patent by the ozone plates and connected to the secondary of the transformer.

Now, after re-reading I think you are reffering to the smaller capacitor ( 47uf) placed in the primary circuit. You fill this capacitor from your source and pulse it through your primary. Surely you dont mean the larger capacitor is discharged through another transformer do you?

I apologize for my thick headedness, but like Wattsup said us novices here have had little time to study and understand the principles here. And I havent even got my firetruck running yet :(

@ AC. Thanks for your diagram and comments regarding the switching and the processes that occur.

I'll continue to watch and hopefully learn, build and achieve.


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Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #124 on: March 01, 2008, 12:42:33 AM »
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Offline Localjoe

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Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #125 on: March 01, 2008, 03:36:11 AM »
@Erfinder

After reading The patent a few times.. letter H is a "synchronous rotary spark gap" on the same axel as the motor in the primary circuit. So when the motor's current in the primary controller circuit is interrupted, the flyback is dumped through the brushes into the into the capacitor "L" which charges until the brushes g and k make contact with the rotary disk discharging that capacitor into the Primary "Coil&Cap"/LC after the rotary gap.  Pretty cool how They designed circuit controllers in those days. The part i find most interesting is how artistically he solved the switching. The wheel and its many uses.  It also clearly states that a motor and or incandescent light bulb can be hooked up on the secondary and driven at little cost. So now i see your point this potential motor on the secondary coil Probably has a mechanical power output much larger than "unity" or its given electrical input so in essence erfinder has shown us a motor that can mechanically put out much more horse power than put in electrically.   

The patent right after this one helped make this become more clear to me.. This one the ozone patent  has a SET output determined by the physical components and the input dc voltage. Pat 568,178 (Good Call IS.. you were  right" . The Circuit of high self induction in the motor can be modified with a thrid coil that is a hollow  chocking coil and an iron rod in it that can be moved in or out to change the inductance in the primary controlling circuit ... I seem remember a reference to a electric car and a few iron rods moved in and out of a box .. I wonder.  Anyways great thread guys. 
                                                                                                                                               Joe
« Last Edit: March 01, 2008, 03:57:22 AM by Localjoe »

Offline Ren

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Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #126 on: March 01, 2008, 03:46:26 AM »
Ok Thanks Erfinder.

I find your methods of learning/teaching to be refreshing in a world where most just want it to work and dont really care too much how it works. While it can be frustrating (learning often is) it does instill a sense of achievement (not to mention valuable lessons learned) if we struggle ourselves to find the answers. I understand what you are saying about the monopole and how it can be misleading etc...

So essentially in this design there should be one transformer to amplify/capture our useable currents then these currents should be discharged through another separate transformer?  A load connected directly to the secondaries capacitor is not ideal in other words?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #126 on: March 01, 2008, 03:46:26 AM »
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Offline wattsup

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Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #127 on: March 01, 2008, 02:54:45 PM »
When the capacitor L discharges it also re-charges the source thus making the system very energy efficient.

The craziest thing about the Ozone patent, for me anyway, is I still do not know for 100% certainty which of Terminals A or B is the positive and negative. The only clue is the fan on the motor that should push the air through the ozone spark channel. But there again the rotation of the motor will depend on how the fan blades are actually oriented. The way I see it, it should work either way and at worst, you would have to change the fan blades orientation. In my current EC design, I am basing it on the Tesla patent with Terminal A being positive.

"You can save yourself some time and trouble in this regard if you just wind the secondary bifilar.  When the self-induction is canceled, then you can begin thinking up a use for your big capacitor."

I am a bit confused. Is this referring to the choke coil or the secondary of the transformer? Also, either choke or transformer, if the coil has two secondaries in series, would this be "close" to bifilar?

"The capacitor connected to the secondary is not just any old capacitor, it is selected specifically for its ability to cancel the self-induction of the secondary.  With self-induction out of the way the only opposition to current flow is ohmic resistance!  This capacitor is charged and discharged abruptly into the primary of a second transformer, the load is connected to this transformers secondary."

Would this second transformer also act as a voltage regulator?
Ooooooooooooooooo. More fun!

Offline Localjoe

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Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #128 on: March 01, 2008, 05:53:57 PM »
@Erfinder

"The circuit including. the motor is of rela-, 90
tively high self-induction, and this property
is imparted to it by the coils of the motor, or,
when these are not sufficient, by the addition
of suitable choking - coils, so that at each
break of the motor-circuit a current of high 95
electromotive force will be developed for
charging the condenser, which may therefore
be small and inexpensive"

So the cap gets charged on the off cycle of the motor?  I took it as meaning that a spark from a long choking coil or motor was given a pathway through the  primary working circuit when the brushes g k were not a pathway in the controlling circuit At that moment. So the working circuit accepts the charge of high electromotive force when the motor breaks connection,   and it discharges when the motor makes connection. This reminds me Of the procedure to discharge a coil gun very rapidly. cool beans and thanks for straiting me out on the discharge path. I always see incandescents hooked up in his patents off of secondary and he always mentions motors can be placed there .. Quick question, is a resistive load needed in the secondary circuit before the motor(an inductive load)  to serve a purpose or have you taken it as either or.?
                                                                         Thanks
                                                                                       Joe

Ps Heres a link for the patent i converted it to SEARCHABLE pdf so folks can use the find option or the select tool to copy and paste text. all that is needed is adobe reader enjoy 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #128 on: March 01, 2008, 05:53:57 PM »
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Offline Ren

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Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #129 on: March 01, 2008, 10:44:21 PM »
[quote author=Erfinder link=topic=3972.msg79819#msg79819 date=1204385404
This is food for thought.  A direct reference to the secondary.  We are using prefabricated transformers, we therefore must use a capacitor for the purpose of canceling the self-induction.  If you were in the position to wind your own secondary, bifilar would be the way to go.  Before you ask why please refer to the patent Tesla was granted for this particular type of coil. [/quote]

So by winding a bifilar secondary we are able to cancel self induction without a capacitor?

Offline allcanadian

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Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #130 on: March 02, 2008, 06:08:24 PM »
Today let's concentrate not on what Teslas circuit does but the actions and properties of the components. One of erfinders recent quotes of Tesla was -----
Quote
I mean that you have to have in the circuit, inertia. You have to have a large self-inductance in order that you may accomplish two things: First, a comparatively low frequency, which will reduce the radiation of the electromagnetic waves to a comparatively small value, and second, a great resonant effect
Inertia  ;)
Consider the picture below, we have on the far left a balloon in air --- the black arrow in the balloon is a force applied to the balloon. Next frame (2) we see that should the balloon "move" two forces evolve (two forces of opposition) the red waves are pressure acting against the balloons motion, the blue waves a suction force acting against the balloons motion. This constant applied force producing motion will always be opposed. Next frame (3) we are no longer applying a force on the balloon as indicated by the black arrow that is missing. But in this motional system we have the properties of mass and inertia or momentum and as such the forces opposing the motion of the balloon now reverse as indicated. "Things in motion tend to stay in motion unless acted upon by an outside force", this should sound familiar  :) The momentum of the surrounding air now pushes the balloon in the direction of the initial applied force, we could see this as a resonant effect---- action/reaction. Next in frame (4) we see the possibility of what "could" happen if we understand the properties of this system. What would happen if we coupled the "reaction" of the surrounding media with an impulsive applied force(action) in the same direction?------ we can see all force arrows are acting in the same direction producing what could be considered a resonant or magnifying effect of force. But we should remember that force is not motion, force leads to motion ---- motion has momentum as motion implies something has moved from one place to another.
In the context of the balloon analogy we could say the circuit below could act in a similar way. If we see the circuit from a mechanical perspective we could say our "electric fluid" has force, an electrical pressure measured as voltage, it has motion as an electrical current thus has momentum, so we cannot ignore the inertial effects in our system. In this respect we could say L1 the large self-inductance can act as a large mass, as L2 would act similar but to a lesser extent. The capacitance "C" would act as a flexible rubber membrane to our electrical fluid and the circuit disrupter as a quick acting valve.
If we then apply these "mechanisms" to the circuit we can see that a flow or motion in L1 will tend to stay in motion as it has large inertial effects --- momentum. If the circuit disrupter should be opened and closed rapidly the applied force or electrical pressure would start L1 in motion, once in motion the circuit disrupter opens and this momentum then acts on L2 and C. But C was already under pressure from the source (+) so this pressure on C must be increased as the momentum of L1 is acting to increase this pressure through a suction force from L1--L2-- to C. This fluid in motion will pressurize C to a point that the momentum of L1 is spent then the flow must reverse as there is still a great pressure imbalance on C. At this point we can see the the system will oscillate back and forth, force leading to motion ----motion to momentum----momentum to force. A symphony of action and reaction orcastrated by the properties or qualities of the instruments, we should let them sound as nature intended as we cannot make them something they cannot be. If we apply the action and reactions of the balloon analogy above we can see the application of force in a system,  when electrical pressure is applied to this circuit, greatly influences the magnitude of oscillation as well as the maintenance of the oscillation. So as we can see there is more happening here than meets the eye and we should carefully consider the components we place in this circuit even more so the "properties" of these components.
Best of luck
« Last Edit: March 02, 2008, 11:46:27 PM by allcanadian »

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Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #130 on: March 02, 2008, 06:08:24 PM »
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Offline Ren

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Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #131 on: March 02, 2008, 10:07:13 PM »
Nice analogy AC! I had a little moment like this yesterday on my way home from work. My daughter was in the front seat and had hung her hand bag from the sun visor. It sunk in as we went around a long sweeping corner. The hand bag swung out and stayed off center till we straightened up. I know its simple and not totally related but it made me think of the qualities of motion and how they effect the objects around us.

I look at your circuit and see this. Electrical pressure flows through to the capacitor (non polarized in this instance?) when the switch is open. The abrupt closing of the switch offers a greater/quicker path of inductance by bypassing the other components. Energy surges forward and inertia begins. The opening of the switch leaves our pressure disconnected and its only path is to its right through a coil (of low self inductance?) which compresses(?) the surge back into the capacitor. In this embodiment  the capacitor would keep rising in voltage above the source every time the switch was opened. It is easy to visualise this in a pumping action related to water.

One last question.

If this was the ozone patent our secondary would be connected to L1 as this is our transformer and circuit of high self induction, yes? Does the secondary of this transformer resonate in union with its primary when the switch closes and as current flows through the primary? How is it effected upon switch opening, does it simply shut off due to a lack of flow through the primary? Or does the pumping action of the primary effect the secondary in another way?

Thanks for your insights.

S

Offline AhuraMazda

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Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #132 on: March 02, 2008, 10:24:05 PM »
A good study of transients as of 1914 can be found here:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3779.msg76799.html#msg76799

AM

Offline Localjoe

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Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #133 on: March 02, 2008, 11:09:33 PM »
@Allcanadian
After understanding the Discharge path as stated in the patent and by erfinder above

 These words from the patent "so that at each break of the motor-circuit a current of high electromotive force will be developed for charging the condenser, which may therefore be small and inexpensive"


A second thought is this.. take your finger in a glass of water and swirl it in a circle , if you do this at an even pace you can see and feel the inertia the water builds.  If done erratically/not synchronously the same effect is not achieved.
That same logic holds true that when the switch from the motor is broken the spark that would be seen normally is sent through the working lc circuit. the Primary coil and its cap .  As stated before this is a series resonate circuit.  This leg of the circuit is shorted during the on cycle of the motor and discharged during the off or break in the cycle.  This cycle of events needs to happen in at a repeated and given interval for the desired result to be achieved in the secondary.  If the timing of the discharge is not in line with the off cycle of the motor so as to receive the current of high electromotive force the effect will not be present in the secondary or severely limited.   
Just some thoughts.
                                                                                                      Joe


Offline popolibero

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Re: The Tesla Project
« Reply #134 on: March 03, 2008, 12:08:03 AM »
Hi everyone,

If I may jump in... I started studying Tesla's patents a while ago and am currently going through the colorado spring notes. I've been working on Bedini solid state circuitry for over a year and am now trying to expand my understanding in applying Tesla's one wire system and started off with the ozone patent. I have a working circuit, although running with a mosfet as a switch, a high inductance discharging into the tank circuit, and cone shaped tesla coil as primary and secondary. I know you are using other components and I certainly don't want to disrupt the "class". I just wanted to add my humble point of view. The last schematic posted seems right to me. The tank circuit is like a bell (tank circuit) with its own resonant freq determined by the components. The high inductance is ringing this this bell at a lower frequency, but it can't be a random frequency. You can also immagine the tank circuit as a swing, it has its own rythm, so you (high inductance) have to push it at the right moment or it won't be efficient or it will stop.
When the switch is closed the supply charges the hi-inductance coil, when opened, its collapsing field discharges into the small cap through the primary of transformer. The switch then closes again to charge the coil. In the mean time the transf.primary and small cap do their ping pong game exchanging the stored energy back and forth, till the next bang from the hi-inductance coil.
hope this helps.

regards,
Mario

 

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