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Author Topic: DEBATE THREAD  (Read 108279 times)

Offline Bessler007

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Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #240 on: January 31, 2008, 09:15:12 PM »
If you were 1,000 years old you would still be wise beyond your years.

If I had to deal with Omni at a personal level it would be me, him, security and a cardboard box.  I'd just smile and agree with everything as I helped him clean out his desk.


Bessler007


I have been trying to follow this, and I sort of see where Omnibus is going, but when I try to get my head around it, it starts to hurt.  Low-Q's explanations make more sense.  But I think I can sum this up:

1.  You will never convince Omnibus he is wrong.  Do not even try. 

. . .

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #240 on: January 31, 2008, 09:15:12 PM »

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #241 on: January 31, 2008, 09:15:53 PM »

 there mustn't be any existing energy source driving the device to claim that device is violating CoE. The energy driving the device must come out of no source.

Precisely, and THAT cannot be done!

Ex nihilo nihil fit. Quod erat demonstrandum!

Offline Omnibus

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Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #242 on: January 31, 2008, 09:21:19 PM »

 there mustn't be any existing energy source driving the device to claim that device is violating CoE. The energy driving the device must come out of no source.

Precisely, and THAT cannot be done!

Ex nihilo nihil fit. Quod erat demonstrandum!
On the contrary, that's the requirement Helmholtz puts for CoE to be violated and precisely that can be done, as demonstrated by SMOT. You have to learn more so that one day somehow you could understand that Latin sentences don't qualify as arguments in physics.

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Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #242 on: January 31, 2008, 09:21:19 PM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #243 on: January 31, 2008, 09:35:58 PM »
But they do, seeing that they express the fundamentals of physics and CoE

out of nothing comes nothing is the most fundamental axiom of physics, everything else follows from there. It is also the most fundamental axiom in mathematics.

Hans von Lieven

Offline Omnibus

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Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #244 on: January 31, 2008, 10:10:58 PM »
But they do, seeing that they express the fundamentals of physics and CoE

out of nothing comes nothing is the most fundamental axiom of physics, everything else follows from there. It is also the most fundamental axiom in mathematics.

Hans von Lieven
No, they don't. It's a wishful thinking to perceive that physical phenomena will go away by the spell of uttering Latin phrases. Now we know that fundamentals of physics reject CoE as a general principle and that's not proven by muttering Latin spell but is proven by experiment. As I explained, energy is the expression of motion and motion comes as a result of proper superposition of force fields. Therefore, the simplistic understanding that 'out of nothing comes nothing' isn't applicable here because forces aren't 'nothing', motion isn't 'nothing', the only 'nothing' is a pre-existing source of energy. Turns out conditions can be found whereby despite the lack of pre-existing energy source, only due to properly superimposed, assisting each other fields, motion of a body at a certain distance can be achieved, that is, work can be done without expenditure of energy of any kind which is equivalent to energy out of nothing (out of no source).

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Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #244 on: January 31, 2008, 10:10:58 PM »
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Offline FreeEnergy

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Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #245 on: January 31, 2008, 10:26:42 PM »
"something must come from something; for nothing comes from nothing and nothing is the result"
- Ernest Shurtleff Holmes










 ;)


Offline Omnibus

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Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #246 on: January 31, 2008, 10:31:31 PM »
"something must come from something; for nothing comes from nothing and nothing is the result"
- Ernest Shurtleff Holmes
 ;)


That's somebody's opinion. So what? People write of elves and leprechauns. This doesn't mean we should quote them as evidence in physics.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #246 on: January 31, 2008, 10:31:31 PM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #247 on: January 31, 2008, 10:33:44 PM »

That's somebody's opinion. So what? People write of elves and leprechauns. This doesn't mean we should quote them as evidence in physics.

And Omnibus writes of Smots and CoE violations. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Hans von Lieven

Offline FreeEnergy

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Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #248 on: January 31, 2008, 10:41:27 PM »











 
 ;)

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Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #248 on: January 31, 2008, 10:41:27 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #249 on: January 31, 2008, 10:41:28 PM »

That's somebody's opinion. So what? People write of elves and leprechauns. This doesn't mean we should quote them as evidence in physics.

And Omnibus writes of Smots and CoE violations. ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Hans von Lieven
Wrong. Wishful thinking again. I write of SMOT violating CoE because I have arguments physics recognizes as legitimate. You are missing the fact that some people don't represent elves and leprechauns as physical argument, neither rely on Latin spells to make physical facts go away, and I belong to that group of people, as evident even in this thread.

Offline tinu

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Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #250 on: January 31, 2008, 10:47:06 PM »
"something must come from something; for nothing comes from nothing and nothing is the result"
- Ernest Shurtleff Holmes










 ;)



I really don?t know anymore?
Sometime money can come from nothing. Fortunately some discover that later it cost time to do.
Also, many other things can come from nothing with a good hidden agenda, right?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #250 on: January 31, 2008, 10:47:06 PM »
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Offline DA

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Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #251 on: January 31, 2008, 10:51:20 PM »
Even if someone does build a self sustaining closed system SMOT this is still no proof that CoE has been violated. The most someone could say is that there is an energy input from an unknown source.

Until we know ALL forms of energy that exist in the universe no violation of CoE can be proven.

We are a long way from recognising and measuring all forms of energy that exist. There are still any number of things out there in this immensity that surrounds us that we have no knowledge of.

Hans von Lieven

Well said, Hans,

Nice to see people like you around who can express themselves clearly.

DA

Offline Omnibus

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Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #252 on: January 31, 2008, 10:59:57 PM »
Even if someone does build a self sustaining closed system SMOT this is still no proof that CoE has been violated. The most someone could say is that there is an energy input from an unknown source.

Until we know ALL forms of energy that exist in the universe no violation of CoE can be proven.

We are a long way from recognising and measuring all forms of energy that exist. There are still any number of things out there in this immensity that surrounds us that we have no knowledge of.

Hans von Lieven

Well said, Hans,

Nice to see people like you around who can express themselves clearly.

DA
What is nice and clear about someone expressing a wrong idea? You're joking, right? A device powered by an existing energy source can never be perpetuum mobile and that's what perpetuum mobile is by definition even in the works of the classics such as Helmholtz.

Offline FreeEnergy

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Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #253 on: January 31, 2008, 11:07:48 PM »
"something must come from something; for nothing comes from nothing and nothing is the result"
- Ernest Shurtleff Holmes










 ;)



I really don?t know anymore?
Sometime money can come from nothing. Fortunately some discover that later it cost time to do.
Also, many other things can come from nothing with a good hidden agenda, right?

depends what you think "nothing" is.

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: DEBATE THREAD
« Reply #254 on: January 31, 2008, 11:14:38 PM »

depends what you think "nothing" is.

According to Omnibus: A nothing is a something you can pull energy from.   

How is that for an oxymoron?

Hans von Lieven

 

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