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Author Topic: What is the engineering problem of the SMOT?  (Read 6834 times)

Offline psychopath

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What is the engineering problem of the SMOT?
« on: January 13, 2008, 10:47:36 AM »
Assume for a moment, and belive, that a SMOT definitely works. No doubt.

Now tell me why you have failed so far. What is the reason you couldn't loop a smot(a looped smot isn't a smot anymore though...)?

Some people say it's because the ball cannot drop. It can, and we all know it, we've all seen it.

So why, why is it that you couldn't get the ball back to the starting position, to go up the ramp once again?

ps Has anyone managed to make the ball drop on a position at least slightly higher than the start position?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Low-Q

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Re: What is the engineering problem of the SMOT?
« Reply #1 on: January 13, 2008, 12:14:29 PM »
Assume for a moment, and belive, that a SMOT definitely works. No doubt.

Now tell me why you have failed so far. What is the reason you couldn't loop a smot(a looped smot isn't a smot anymore though...)?

Some people say it's because the ball cannot drop. It can, and we all know it, we've all seen it.

So why, why is it that you couldn't get the ball back to the starting position, to go up the ramp once again?

ps Has anyone managed to make the ball drop on a position at least slightly higher than the start position?
If we assume that a SMOT works in a closed loop, there wouldn't be any problems. Right?

Well, back to the real world. A SMOT have the problem that it cannot be closed, and still run. The engineering problem is the lack of knowledge about how permanent magnets works. It isn't sufficiant to tell that it's impossible to make a magnet motor with permanent magnets, because they are static and neutral in nature. No, one have to explain how a magnet motor does not work.

This is a few facts about the SMOT in a closed loop:
A SMOT is basically two long magnets arranged as an open "V" where the entrance of a steel ball is in the widest part, and the exit is on the narrowest part.
The flux density is highest right before the magnets are at its narrowest, and not at the final end of the magnets.
Two magnets which is arranged that way have a space between them. And this space allows the magnetic field to behave differently than the inventor had in mind. At the end of each magnet, the shortest way for the magnetism to travel is by travelling straight around the corner of that magnet instead of travelling through the air to the other magnet.
This creates a counter force which prevents or slows down the balls speed as it approach the SMOT, because the magnetic density is in that point is higher behind the ball than in front of it - and not as the inventor had in mind.
In fact the ball is therfor forced in reverse within a certain area before it enters the SMOT.

When the ball finally pass this area, it will be "sucked" in between the magnets, and "searching" for the most magnetic densed area. This area is before the final end of the magnets, and the ball will get forced to stay within the most densed area. This is the second hinderance for the ball to gain the extra energy to pass the SMOT.

Now, you say: "The ball do pass the SMOT!". Yes it does, but not with higher speed than it had when it entered the SMOT.

Here is the problem. The gained acceleration inside the SMOT is counterforced by the reverse forces right before the enterance and right before the exit.

So the ball will never have enough speed to pass the reverse force in the enterance by itself. Thats the engineering problem with SMOTs.

Br.

Vidar

Offline xumed

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Re: What is the engineering problem of the SMOT?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2008, 04:22:52 PM »
Just saw a few video clips of the SMOT and the following quote sums up the problem from purely observation.

Quote
So the ball will never have enough speed to pass the reverse force in the enterance by itself. Thats the engineering problem with SMOTs.

However I wondered if anyone has tried to create a pivoted SMOT (something like a seesaw) where when the ball reaches the top of the ramp it's mass causes the ramp to tip (keeping the ball within the magnetic field) and reversing the ramp. Obviously the two magnets would have to move apart where the ball is located, which could easily be done with simple guides and the pivot point.

Hopefully you can envisage what I'm saying, the only problem i can see here is that the mass of the ball will not be significant enough to tip the ramp and overcome the forces of the magnets when it drops to seperate them to reverse the ramp.

if the mass is enough then we would expect it to run continuously or eventually reach a stage of equilibrium.

ANYWAY just a little thought and wondered what anyone else had seen/tried or thought.

I'm a skeptic by nature but still intrigued.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: What is the engineering problem of the SMOT?
« Reply #2 on: January 13, 2008, 04:22:52 PM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: What is the engineering problem of the SMOT?
« Reply #3 on: January 13, 2008, 05:49:18 PM »
The engineering problem of SMOT if it's necessary to turn it into a self-sustaining device is how to harness the produced excess energy (energy out of nothing). A device such as the one constructed by @alsetalonkin we are discussing in a couple of other threads, as well as such as the Lego Perpetuum Mobile of the one by @xpenzif etc. may be the engineering solution to that problem. Therefore, it's advisable to focus your attention on these devices if you're interested in a self-sustaining device. If you just want to convince yourself that CoE can be violated and excess energy (energy out of nothing) can be produced discontinuously, the SMOT in its present form is sufficient.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: What is the engineering problem of the SMOT?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2008, 07:02:45 PM »
Just saw a few video clips of the SMOT and the following quote sums up the problem from purely observation.

Quote
So the ball will never have enough speed to pass the reverse force in the enterance by itself. Thats the engineering problem with SMOTs.

However I wondered if anyone has tried to create a pivoted SMOT (something like a seesaw) where when the ball reaches the top of the ramp it's mass causes the ramp to tip (keeping the ball within the magnetic field) and reversing the ramp. Obviously the two magnets would have to move apart where the ball is located, which could easily be done with simple guides and the pivot point.

Hopefully you can envisage what I'm saying, the only problem i can see here is that the mass of the ball will not be significant enough to tip the ramp and overcome the forces of the magnets when it drops to seperate them to reverse the ramp.

if the mass is enough then we would expect it to run continuously or eventually reach a stage of equilibrium.

ANYWAY just a little thought and wondered what anyone else had seen/tried or thought.

I'm a skeptic by nature but still intrigued.
Sorry, I misunderstood your question. The seesaw configuration uses, as far as I know from my own experiments, no energy to flip the magnets from "\ /" shape to a "/ \" shape. It is an interesting idea, but when you put the iron ball in between them the \./ -shape will remain in this shape and the seesaw will stop. There is no way this configuration will work. Maybe there is a way around, but as I've been told, something indicates that I'm an illiterate in physics :D

Br.

Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: What is the engineering problem of the SMOT?
« Reply #4 on: January 13, 2008, 07:02:45 PM »
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Offline xumed

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Re: What is the engineering problem of the SMOT?
« Reply #5 on: January 13, 2008, 10:02:45 PM »
Quote
Sorry, I misunderstood your question. The seesaw configuration uses, as far as I know from my own experiments, no energy to flip the magnets from "\ /" shape to a "/ \" shape. It is an interesting idea, but when you put the iron ball in between them the \./ -shape will remain in this shape and the seesaw will stop. There is no way this configuration will work.


Well picture this, when it reaches the top the ramp tips. As it tips a guide forces the magnets apart. As the magnets are pivoted the other end would naturely move closer together reversing the magnets orientation. If the ball remains in the magnetic field it surely would shoot back up the ramp.

Again talking off the top of my head... haven't had anytime to play around or research and it has been almost 10 years since i last looked at magnetism.

Have a look at the attached image to try help understand what i'm proposing. Someone surely must of tried this. ??????? But like i say I expect the magnetic forces prevent you from altering their position with just the mass of the ball.

Still a skeptic :)

Offline Low-Q

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Re: What is the engineering problem of the SMOT?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2008, 10:14:42 PM »
Quote
Sorry, I misunderstood your question. The seesaw configuration uses, as far as I know from my own experiments, no energy to flip the magnets from "\ /" shape to a "/ \" shape. It is an interesting idea, but when you put the iron ball in between them the \./ -shape will remain in this shape and the seesaw will stop. There is no way this configuration will work.


Well picture this, when it reaches the top the ramp tips. As it tips a guide forces the magnets apart. As the magnets are pivoted the other end would naturely move closer together reversing the magnets orientation. If the ball remains in the magnetic field it surely would shoot back up the ramp.

Again talking off the top of my head... haven't had anytime to play around or research and it has been almost 10 years since i last looked at magnetism.

Have a look at the attached image to try help understand what i'm proposing. Someone surely must of tried this. ??????? But like i say I expect the magnetic forces prevent you from altering their position with just the mass of the ball.

Still a skeptic :)
This device will work as a pendulum. The seesaw will "flip-flop" several times before it stops. As the ball is the reason why the magnets are separating in one end, the same force will pull the ball back again. It will oscillate for a while like a penduum untill all energy losses has stoped it. So it wont work out. it will find its rest when the magnets are horizontally and in parallell - with the ball right in the middle.

Br.

Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: What is the engineering problem of the SMOT?
« Reply #6 on: January 13, 2008, 10:14:42 PM »
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Offline xumed

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Re: What is the engineering problem of the SMOT?
« Reply #7 on: January 13, 2008, 10:46:48 PM »
Kind of what I'd expected, just wondered if anyone had tried to see how long it oscillates.

I think with some clever latching, i.e. only allowing the tipping when the ball reaches the top of the ramp. You should have something that sustains for a reasonable length of time ( OR just doesn't work at all :D)

anyway

Offline Low-Q

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Re: What is the engineering problem of the SMOT?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2008, 10:50:18 PM »
Kind of what I'd expected, just wondered if anyone had tried to see how long it oscillates.

I think with some clever latching, i.e. only allowing the tipping when the ball reaches the top of the ramp. You should have something that sustains for a reasonable length of time ( OR just doesn't work at all :D)

anyway
Mechanical setups allways suffers from delays due to mass that have to accelerate, and stop. It would required tremendous amount of momentary power to flop the seesaw within an infinitely short time. Don't try it at home :D

Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: What is the engineering problem of the SMOT?
« Reply #8 on: January 13, 2008, 10:50:18 PM »
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Offline xumed

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Re: What is the engineering problem of the SMOT?
« Reply #9 on: January 13, 2008, 10:55:13 PM »
Hmmm.... ;D

Offline psychopath

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Re: What is the engineering problem of the SMOT?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2008, 05:17:59 AM »
Assume for a moment, and belive, that a SMOT definitely works. No doubt.

Now tell me why you have failed so far. What is the reason you couldn't loop a smot(a looped smot isn't a smot anymore though...)?

Some people say it's because the ball cannot drop. It can, and we all know it, we've all seen it.

So why, why is it that you couldn't get the ball back to the starting position, to go up the ramp once again?

ps Has anyone managed to make the ball drop on a position at least slightly higher than the start position?
If we assume that a SMOT works in a closed loop, there wouldn't be any problems. Right?

Well, back to the real world. A SMOT have the problem that it cannot be closed, and still run. The engineering problem is the lack of knowledge about how permanent magnets works. It isn't sufficiant to tell that it's impossible to make a magnet motor with permanent magnets, because they are static and neutral in nature. No, one have to explain how a magnet motor does not work.

This is a few facts about the SMOT in a closed loop:
A SMOT is basically two long magnets arranged as an open "V" where the entrance of a steel ball is in the widest part, and the exit is on the narrowest part.
The flux density is highest right before the magnets are at its narrowest, and not at the final end of the magnets.
Two magnets which is arranged that way have a space between them. And this space allows the magnetic field to behave differently than the inventor had in mind. At the end of each magnet, the shortest way for the magnetism to travel is by travelling straight around the corner of that magnet instead of travelling through the air to the other magnet.
This creates a counter force which prevents or slows down the balls speed as it approach the SMOT, because the magnetic density is in that point is higher behind the ball than in front of it - and not as the inventor had in mind.
In fact the ball is therfor forced in reverse within a certain area before it enters the SMOT.

When the ball finally pass this area, it will be "sucked" in between the magnets, and "searching" for the most magnetic densed area. This area is before the final end of the magnets, and the ball will get forced to stay within the most densed area. This is the second hinderance for the ball to gain the extra energy to pass the SMOT.

Now, you say: "The ball do pass the SMOT!". Yes it does, but not with higher speed than it had when it entered the SMOT.

Here is the problem. The gained acceleration inside the SMOT is counterforced by the reverse forces right before the enterance and right before the exit.

So the ball will never have enough speed to pass the reverse force in the enterance by itself. Thats the engineering problem with SMOTs.

Br.

Vidar

Thanks, your reply was what I was looking for. But I have a question, hasn't it been shown in some videos that there is some extra energy gained from smots?

Another question, even if there is not extra gain, can't you make use of the height gained? So if you make the ball drop to even 2 mm above the starting position you can, with a track sloped VERY little, bring it back to the start. And if the ball starts at the strating point without intervention, then there shouldn't be a problem.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: What is the engineering problem of the SMOT?
« Reply #10 on: January 14, 2008, 05:17:59 AM »
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