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Author Topic: Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??  (Read 1329024 times)

PolyMatrix

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Re: Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??
« Reply #1800 on: January 26, 2008, 08:38:58 AM »
Does the FEMM take into account that the rotor magnets are not at the same height as the stator magnet as per reference to Al's comments re-posted into this thread? http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3871.msg72507.html#msg72507

Would not a difference in height change the strength of repulsion and attraction?

One other thing that concerns me is the amount of up/down movement in the Rotor and/or the stator can do as there could be a slight push from gravity as one of wheels drops at a latching or null point. Though the speeds at which these are turning the gravity effect should be minimal.

niente

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Re: Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??
« Reply #1801 on: January 26, 2008, 11:13:01 AM »
I'm sorry but the Excel file I posted (relative to my first simulation) wasn't correct: the total  torque seems to be 11467, not 222! (I typed a ";" instead of a ":" in the sum formula)  ;D .... anyway it seems too much ....  ??? Why???
In attachment the corrected file.

Does the FEMM take into account that the rotor magnets are not at the same height as the stator magnet as per reference to Al's comments re-posted into this thread?

No, the FEMM software works in 2D, but one can simulate the minor interaction by decreasing the magnets power.
 

MeggerMan

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Re: Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??
« Reply #1802 on: January 26, 2008, 12:03:24 PM »
@niente,
Much better results now then, I never spotted that error either.

You need to change the problem to mm not inches, and the depth to about 10mm.
AFAIK at the moment you a simulating an 80" rotor with 10" stator ring magnets.
25N average torque is good, but thats a big rotor to spin and you will need a big finger to overcome the 100Kg twisting action on that stator. ;)

regards
Rob

RunningBare

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Re: Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??
« Reply #1803 on: January 26, 2008, 03:06:50 PM »
Does anyone else notice the stator magnet is wobbling in a circle thats opposite the direction of spin in the stroboscope video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHBIXjkUrK8

robbie47

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Re: Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??
« Reply #1804 on: January 26, 2008, 08:59:39 PM »
I'm sorry but the Excel file I posted (relative to my first simulation) wasn't correct: the total  torque seems to be 11467, not 222! (I typed a ";" instead of a ":" in the sum formula)  ;D .... anyway it seems too much ....  ??? Why???
In attachment the corrected file.


@ niente
First of all: nice simulations. These could help in understanding the effect we are looking for.
I'll try your initiated files to vary a few thinks myself. Thanks for your effort so far.

You called your outcome torque, but what it really is, is the integral of the torque over 1/8 of one rotor revolution.
To get the average torque over 1/8 th rotor revolution you have to divide again by 451, I think.
This leads to an average torque of around 26 then.

Note: If I am not mistaken, the simulated rotor consists of air.
So, we should be very cautious with the figures from these simulations.

Shirakawa

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Re: Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??
« Reply #1805 on: January 26, 2008, 10:03:55 PM »
25 Nm at 1250 rpm is about 3.4 kW of power.
I don't think any power excess in the original Alsetalokin mpmm replication would be over a few milliwatts, if not small fractions of them.

evil-doer

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Re: Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??
« Reply #1806 on: January 27, 2008, 12:01:38 AM »
http://youtube.com/watch?v=H4eZJtEeZVc

lots of people were talking about the strobe vid being too shaky so i tried to make it more stable. enjoy

JFK

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Re: Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??
« Reply #1807 on: January 27, 2008, 12:08:47 AM »

ken_nyus

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Re: Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??
« Reply #1808 on: January 27, 2008, 02:11:35 AM »
Does anyone else notice the stator magnet is wobbling in a circle thats opposite the direction of spin in the stroboscope video?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHBIXjkUrK8

Seems like push-pull at the repulsion-attraction points, I can't actually see it forming it's own circle (yet, I'll be staring some more).

The only bit of this device I have replicated so far, in my own junkyard style, is a stator assembly using 1/2" id brass tube from the hobby shop, the right ring mags, a nylon ring spacer, the right socket head cap screws, and a few different types of bearings.

This is a wobbly setup, I guess radial bearings aren't made to keep things steady this way.

If I think about it, a push-pull, combined with the rotation must form some kind of second level cycle.


Omnibus

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Re: Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??
« Reply #1809 on: January 27, 2008, 02:31:02 AM »
Hmmmmm.. 2nd post. http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,528.0.html
I didn't know @Jdo300 had posted this and that's only natural, at that time I didn't even know research was going on in this area. As far as I remember sometime at the beginning of 2006 I hit upon a discussion on something called SMOT somewhere on the net only by chance seeing a bunch of guys viciously attacking someone. My first reaction was 'oh, not again'  thinking this is another one of these internet silly claims. However, upon a second look and a closer inspection that changed. And ... you know the rest of the story. And, by the way, I have these plans as well, unfortunately never bracing myself to really make the device. The link now is http://www.grandpawsshop.com.

hydrocontrol

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Re: Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??
« Reply #1810 on: January 27, 2008, 03:32:21 AM »
I am not sure that many people are aware of this but the ultimate setup of Al's + OC's motor seemed vaguely familiar. I started looking around a while back I and came across this setup that CLaNZeR (Sean) tried duplicating last year.

http://www.overunity.org.uk/kissPM.htm

I did mention this to CLaNZeR and he wrote back "Too much friction using Polycarbonate as gears really".  Too bad as it looks like the next step in order to get perfect timing.

FunkyJive

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Re: Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??
« Reply #1811 on: January 27, 2008, 04:00:23 AM »
Quote
I am not sure that many people are aware of this but the ultimate setup of Al's + OC's motor seemed vaguely familiar. I started looking around a while back I and came across this setup that CLaNZeR (Sean) tried duplicating last year.

http://www.overunity.org.uk/kissPM.htm

I did mention this to CLaNZeR and he wrote back "Too much friction using Polycarbonate as gears really".  Too bad as it looks like the next step in order to get perfect timing.


Not knowing how much friction would generally be permissible with all those contributory synchronised stators, I can't help but wonder whether those lightweight RC helicopter tail-drive belts and off-the-shelf toothed shafts could be put to good use for something like this.

All the stator cogs could use a suitable toothed shaft of any reasonable size (as the rotors only need to maintain synchronicity) so one peripheral belt would sort that out, thereby requiring one further belt (or even a single meshed cog drive) between the main rotor and one of the stators.

Just a thought ;)


FunkyJive

Omnibus

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Re: Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??
« Reply #1812 on: January 27, 2008, 04:09:20 AM »
@FunkyJive,

You mean something like this: http://youtube.com/watch?v=wcy0tedYBMg, That's the most interesting rendition so far of the well known idea we're trying to reproduce. The difference in our case now is that there's someone real who's willing to talk to the replicators to a certain extent.

And, note, the magnets in that video are ceramic and not neos, if we heed Stefan's concern about the degradation of the neos.

Jdo300

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Re: Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??
« Reply #1813 on: January 27, 2008, 09:59:35 AM »
Here's a simple analysis (by using FEMM) of the torque of the rotor covering 45 degrees of the motion (then it repeats itself because of the symmetry).

When the fulcrum of the rotor and of the stator are connected with a line, and one of the magnets on the rotor is perpendicular to this line, the stator position shows a difference of about 25 degrees in respect of that line (as in the third Alsetalokin video). This fact is included in the simulation (visible here: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1060658/oc_mpmm_magnetic_simulation/).

(http://aycu15.webshots.com/image/42894/2000063521856033943_rs.jpg)

The simulation data and graph are included in the attached Excel document, and they show a total positive torque (it should be 0 if there were no self-rotation!).  :o

Sorry for any mistake I did!  ::)



Hi Niente,

There is a problem with your simulation setup. If you look at the square boundary around your rotor disk, you will notice that all of the field lines intersect the boundary at 90 degrees. This shows one of two things. First, the boundary is way to close to the problem region. This distorts the fields and will produce inaccurate results. Secondly, for magnetic simulations, it is best to use a circular boundary and boundary conditions that approximate an infinite problem region to get the most accurate results.

For my simulations, I wrote a simple LUA script that creates a circular boundary of the desired radius and automatically calculates and applies the correct boundary condition for the problem. It also adds a block label set to "Air" for the problem region. Though you will have to go in and set the mesh density to what you want. I have attached the script file below.

Also. I have made a simulation of the rotor disk (to scale) with a single stator magnet for everyone to play around with. I wrote an accompanying script file that will rotate both the rotor and stator magnet either clockwise or counter-clockwise depending on the settings in the script. You can set the initial starting angle of the stator and can also change the gear ratio (at the moment it is set to 4:1). It will also print out a data file with torque values at each position of the wheel. You can just copy and paste into Excel and make a graph from there for further analysis. The only thing is I don't set the initial position of the rotor so if the simulation gets stopped for any reason, you'll have to manually select the rotor magnets and rotate them back to the starting position you want. This script file is also included with the simulation file and the boundary setting script. I tried to make it easy to understand but If anyone has any questions don't hesitate to ask.

God Bless,
Jason O

vipond50

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Re: Working Magnetic Motor on you tube??
« Reply #1814 on: January 27, 2008, 10:31:33 AM »
Here's a simple analysis (by using FEMM) of the torque of the rotor covering 45 degrees of the motion (then it repeats itself because of the symmetry).

When the fulcrum of the rotor and of the stator are connected with a line, and one of the magnets on the rotor is perpendicular to this line, the stator position shows a difference of about 25 degrees in respect of that line (as in the third Alsetalokin video). This fact is included in the simulation (visible here: http://www.metacafe.com/watch/1060658/oc_mpmm_magnetic_simulation/).

(http://aycu15.webshots.com/image/42894/2000063521856033943_rs.jpg)

The simulation data and graph are included in the attached Excel document, and they show a total positive torque (it should be 0 if there were no self-rotation!).  :o

Sorry for any mistake I did!  ::)



Hi Niente,

There is a problem with your simulation setup. If you look at the square boundary around your rotor disk, you will notice that all of the field lines intersect the boundary at 90 degrees. This shows one of two things. First, the boundary is way to close to the problem region. This distorts the fields and will produce inaccurate results. Secondly, for magnetic simulations, it is best to use a circular boundary and boundary conditions that approximate an infinite problem region to get the most accurate results.

For my simulations, I wrote a simple LUA script that creates a circular boundary of the desired radius and automatically calculates and applies the correct boundary condition for the problem. It also adds a block label set to "Air" for the problem region. Though you will have to go in and set the mesh density to what you want. I have attached the script file below.

Also. I have made a simulation of the rotor disk (to scale) with a single stator magnet for everyone to play around with. I wrote an accompanying script file that will rotate both the rotor and stator magnet either clockwise or counter-clockwise depending on the settings in the script. You can set the initial starting angle of the stator and can also change the gear ratio (at the moment it is set to 4:1). It will also print out a data file with torque values at each position of the wheel. You can just copy and paste into Excel and make a graph from there for further analysis. The only thing is I don't set the initial position of the rotor so if the simulation gets stopped for any reason, you'll have to manually select the rotor magnets and rotate them back to the starting position you want. This script file is also included with the simulation file and the boundary setting script. I tried to make it easy to understand but If anyone has any questions don't hesitate to ask.

God Bless,
Jason O
Thanks Jason
Best Regards
Bill