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Author Topic: Muller Dynamo  (Read 3538671 times)

Offline Scorch

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6120 on: September 19, 2013, 10:08:12 PM »
Quanta Magnetics suggested I check to make sure the timing magnets are not sitting at an angle.
And, yes, I discovered that some of the magnets were just not sitting square compared to the surface of the disk.
Not sure why as they do appear to be bottomed out in their respective holes.

So I figure; "easy fix", simply uninstall the timing disk and use an arbor press to attempt to square up the magnets" . . .
Of course this was a mistake; never assume that any 'five minute' job will only take five minutes!  :o

The aluminum hub was seized on the steel shaft because the shaft does not have a flat to accommodate the set screw nor does the hub have any cut out to make way for any burrs that a set screw typically cuts into the shaft.

After completely removing the set screw this timing disk did not want to move at all.
Even with larger tools including vise grips, channel locks, and pry bars; the hub just kept getting tighter and tighter as I tried to remove it due to displaced aluminum between the shaft and hub.   >:(

I finally had to resort to power tools and ended up cutting the hub, and disk, off which, of course, was a pain in the tail. . .  :(

Time to order parts and clean all the aluminum, burrs, and tool marks off both ends of the shaft. . .   :P

Oh well.

Hope I don't run into a similar problem when I need to re-configure the rotor for Q3 operation. . . .

I am off the opinion the shaft should have a flat or the aluminum hubs should have a slight cut out where the set screw is.
I used to build medical equipment on an assembly line. The compressor had a cooling fan. One vender provided fans that had this cut out and I never had any problem removing those fans from the compressor shaft. The other vendor fan did not have any such cut out and it was always a pain in the tail to remove those fans. . .

}:>


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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6120 on: September 19, 2013, 10:08:12 PM »

Offline Scorch

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6121 on: September 19, 2013, 10:23:12 PM »
Well I did discover there was one, or two, magnets sitting at an angle.
Not sure why, I thought I made sure those were all bottomed in their holes.
Of course that turned into a major pain in the tail just trying to fix that. (see above)

I would still like to use an optical sensor to control the SSR but desire something simpler than an Arduino controller.
Seems to me like it should be pretty straightforward to create a basic circuit that uses a sensor such as this-
http://www.mpja.com/download/18028op.pdf
To simply pulse the relay whenever it sees a gap in the disk.
And should be possible to include a simple pulse width control by way of a pot and capacitor or timer to control 'on time'.

Wish I could find such a circuit - schematic on the net somewhere. . .

BTW: The magnets are set in holes that do not go all the way through the disk therefore not easily removed. . . .

}:>


Hey Scorch

I know 'exactly' what your dealing with. Ive dealt with it also on a mag motor build.

I suppose there are mags made to specific qualities and some not. 

Try this. Remove the problematic magnets and rotate them some and reinstall. What I found is some are not magnetically centered, so rotating them 90% at first will give you a clue it it is an off centered issue or just a field strength issue.  And if it is a field strength issue, too strong, using thin iron wire or thin sheet metal, foil if can be had and apply a bit at a time to the sides of the magnet, around the circumference to shunt the field enough to lessen the field a bit or even to balance out a strong side if off center.

If the few problem mags are showing weaker then maybe get some mags for replacement and see if any 'match' the good ones you have. Or just position them out of their base closer to the sensor, be it reed or hall. And if too strong, push them in a bit, away from the sensor. If possible. ;)

In my opinion, when someone tries to sell a 'good' kit or product, that they would have 'matched sets' when it comes to magnets, just like in a quality audio amplifier, they will use matched sets for output transistors, a some other components.  ;) Thats is the best option and maybe a good recommendation for the company you got the kit from to think about producing matched sets for each kit. I believe Steorn has a magnet mapper for sale. ;D Are they still around? Just a computer tracked rotating device with a hall sensor for mapping the flux densities outside the mag.

Mags
« Last Edit: September 20, 2013, 01:15:20 AM by Scorch »

Offline Scorch

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6122 on: September 19, 2013, 10:24:15 PM »
These magnets where included with the kit.

}:>

Hi Marcx41,

Did you get the magnets from the guy I gave you the info from ? Yes I am unpacking everything and I have everything ready to start working again, Scorch work will help me a lot on somethings I did not know how to put together....

But I got new hopes now that I see Scorch work and that these people are responding to emails and willing to help.

Next month for sure, I will start working on mine again.

TheStone.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6122 on: September 19, 2013, 10:24:15 PM »
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Offline marcx41

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6123 on: September 19, 2013, 11:58:41 PM »
Some pictures for waiting.....

Offline marcx41

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6124 on: September 20, 2013, 02:09:13 AM »
 Hi Scorch, ( sorry again for my enghish )
if I can help you, I read and see your problem on your post.
An hall sensor control the SSR for the motor without arduino controler on my machine.
It is a TLE 4905 ( Vs max 32v / I output 100 mA ), the SSR take maximum 20 mA and you can connect it directly without pot and additional electronic.... Vs is +24 V, GND is -24v and Q is the + output direct on the SSR ( +3 ) and of course - 24V on ( 4- ).

 I think that isn't a bad idea. For the gap, more it is small, less amperes the motor eat, and for the timing it is easy with your original timing disk.

 Regard, Marcx41

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6124 on: September 20, 2013, 02:09:13 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6125 on: September 20, 2013, 02:57:39 AM »
I prefer optical for strict precision. Didnt know if you wanted to go that direction.

What is it that the reeds switch  on and off? Coils? How much current, voltage would the optical have to handle?

Below is a typical optical wheel sensor circuit. These can operate reed relays easily, which would bring the motors circuit back to the way it is intended using reeds as the actual switch. ;)

Mags

Offline marcx41

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6126 on: September 20, 2013, 03:20:45 AM »
Hi Maggluvin,
Thank for your post, it is all time interresting to look for strict precision.
I am not a electronic specialist, if you have some idea to connect some opto to control the SSR. the Q2 run under 24 VDC and the SSR take  maximum 20 mA under 3.5 to 32 VDC. If I am wright this sort of opto works under 1.2 VDC. I try to know the best way for the circuit.

Regard, Marcx41



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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6126 on: September 20, 2013, 03:20:45 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6127 on: September 20, 2013, 03:52:36 AM »
Hey Marc

The sensor I posted uses 5v and switches to ground when light is passes to the optic sensor from the led. If you can give me a part number on the ssr, I can look up a data sheet and try to work something out for ya. ;)   Shouldnt be that hard to do and not expensive. ;) The sensors dont have to be as I have shown. They can be individual led's and optic sensors.  Just off the top of my head, if the input is not that much to the ssr to trigger it, the sensor shown could possibly work as shown ans just apply power to one terminal of the ssr input and the sensor will ground the other terminal when light hits the optic sensor.


Then for the actual trigger wheel with holes or slots can be made with black plexy 1/8 in.  If you have 2 discs, you can make them so that one is adjustable on the other to make the holes or slots larger or smaller for shorter and longer durations of on time, without having to try and remake new timing wheels. ;)

Mags

Offline marcx41

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6128 on: September 20, 2013, 04:23:54 AM »
Hi Magluvin, thank for your time, you can find some specifications on the attach piece, I hope you find what you need.
I have no problem for the disk, I use two opu200 for the 4 SSR to run the generator stage but they run under 10 to 35 VDC, eat 200 mA and are realy expencive ( I have it and I use it ).....

 Thank again, Marc

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6128 on: September 20, 2013, 04:23:54 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6129 on: September 20, 2013, 04:53:59 AM »
From the looks of it, the optical sensor shown would drive the relay on its own as shown. Just apply 5v to one side of the relay control and the same circuit I posted, connect the output of it to the other control line of the relay. 5 to 30ma is fine I believe.  I dont have an ssr to try.

But if you have a Radioshack near by.......
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2049723&locale=en_US

It should work the same as the circuit device I posted, just separate parts, led and photo transistor.

Mags

Offline marcx41

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6130 on: September 20, 2013, 05:12:13 AM »
Magluvin, I keep it in mind for the next modification, i am waiting for the ultra capacitors and run my view of the Q2 in actual configuration first.
modifications are all time on the way, thank again, Marc

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6130 on: September 20, 2013, 05:12:13 AM »
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Offline Scorch

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6131 on: September 20, 2013, 05:01:37 PM »
Yes; the optical sensor could run the SSR on its own but here is the challenge-
With a reed switch; pulse width is easily adjusted by changing the distance between the reed and magnets.

The optical sensor will need a pulse width adjustment.
In layman's terms:
A knob that makes the optical gap (in disk) to appear 'bigger' and, if possible, also 'smaller'.

And I believe this would just be a timing capacitor or 555 timer or, maybe, just a resistance in the right place.
The Q2 uses a couple 22k resistors, before the relay, to change pulse time.
Instructions say- "(2) 2200 ohm resistors in series are used to provide the option of jumping one, or both, for an extended pulse time."
Although I believe this would also be effected by voltage and would prefer something more stable.

Or maybe some way to incorporate the optical sensor into an existing PWM such as this motor controller I have on my shelf-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-14V-10A-Pulse-Width-Modulation-PWM-DC-Motor-Speed-Control-Switch-/271218590923

}:>


From the looks of it, the optical sensor shown would drive the relay on its own as shown. Just apply 5v to one side of the relay control and the same circuit I posted, connect the output of it to the other control line of the relay. 5 to 30ma is fine I believe.  I dont have an ssr to try.

But if you have a Radioshack near by.......
http://www.radioshack.com/product/index.jsp?productId=2049723&locale=en_US

It should work the same as the circuit device I posted, just separate parts, led and photo transistor.

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6132 on: September 21, 2013, 05:11:29 AM »
Yes; the optical sensor could run the SSR on its own but here is the challenge-
With a reed switch; pulse width is easily adjusted by changing the distance between the reed and magnets.

The optical sensor will need a pulse width adjustment.
In layman's terms:
A knob that makes the optical gap (in disk) to appear 'bigger' and, if possible, also 'smaller'.

And I believe this would just be a timing capacitor or 555 timer or, maybe, just a resistance in the right place.
The Q2 uses a couple 22k resistors, before the relay, to change pulse time.
Instructions say- "(2) 2200 ohm resistors in series are used to provide the option of jumping one, or both, for an extended pulse time."
Although I believe this would also be effected by voltage and would prefer something more stable.

Or maybe some way to incorporate the optical sensor into an existing PWM such as this motor controller I have on my shelf-
http://www.ebay.com/itm/12V-14V-10A-Pulse-Width-Modulation-PWM-DC-Motor-Speed-Control-Switch-/271218590923

}:>

I think I mentioned to use 2 black plastic disks with holes or slots sandwiched together so that one could be adjusted to make the slot or holes smaller or larger.  ;)

Mags

Offline Scorch

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6133 on: September 21, 2013, 05:28:31 PM »
This is a really good concept. Thank you.  :)

Reliable and elegant in its simplicity.
Easy to implement although not adjustable while running.
And may incorporate reference marks on the disk to indicate whatever the current gap is.

So; is there a schematic for the simplest way to operate the SSR directly from a basic, four wire, optical sensor?

}:>


I think I mentioned to use 2 black plastic disks with holes or slots sandwiched together so that one could be adjusted to make the slot or holes smaller or larger.  ;)

Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #6134 on: September 21, 2013, 09:20:11 PM »
This is a really good concept. Thank you.  :)

Reliable and elegant in its simplicity.
Easy to implement although not adjustable while running.
And may incorporate reference marks on the disk to indicate whatever the current gap is.

So; is there a schematic for the simplest way to operate the SSR directly from a basic, four wire, optical sensor?

}:>

http://www.overunity.com/3842/muller-dynamo/msg371187/#msg371187

 ;D

 

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