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Author Topic: Muller Dynamo  (Read 4343704 times)

konehead

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5565 on: February 07, 2012, 08:15:42 AM »
Hi Mr uu
 
It depends on lots of things besides the widths of coil and widths of magnets - such as aircoil, or coil with core in it - when you have core, then the core gets the "brunt" of the magnet, and the core is what gives the "signal shape" to the coil, and its not a direct magnet-coil thing going on, like in an aircoil.
yes I agree its the edges of the rotor magnets are what induce the peaks in an aircoil...But wha is interesting to me at least, is  it makes no sense when using hockey-puck shaped magnet that there are two "edges" to magnet, since you can twist the rotor-magnet around, and it doesnt make any difference to the signal-shape(this makes no sense to me at least!)
While, if you use a rectangular shaped brick or block shaped magnet, then theer is an obvious N-S polarity to the ends of the magnets, the sides, and the faces.....(why Beardon alsways calls magent "dipoles" since there are 6 sides to dice, and 6 sides to magnets)
Also the speed in rpms of the rotor makes a difference in the signal-shape too in how huch time the magnet gets to react to the coil...
I personally like to string two "adjacent" coils on a coil-plate  connected together  "backwards in polarity" and in series too, and then have one magnet in rotor pass by each, and so not have a single magnet for each coil, ( this is with aircoils) this gives a perfect AC sinewave as shown....this means explained in another way, if 8 magnet rotor, you would have 16 coils on coil plates each side,  (this mullergen style sort of ) wiht 8 of those coils face-on with the magnets to get the perfect sinewave shown here with photo of AC signal from coils indeuced rotor of 8 all-N magnets and it has 16 aircoil positioned each side:

mariuscivic

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5566 on: February 07, 2012, 09:53:08 AM »
Hi Konehead
Thank you for sharing your Romero muller variant photos.
You have a strong magnetic field there from all those backing magnets. If the rotor is driven by a hall sensor; are you sure that is not affected by the backing magnets? If is not affected then you might not want to touch it and leave it like this for further experiments.
Still shorting the full wave and having fun with this. I tryed a lot of different coils and every one behavies differently.
There is one partycullar coil(directional) that i can short it at very high frequency with all most no lenz (only 2mA more at 1800rpm).The bad thing is that when i try to charge a cap (doesn't matter the value) it makes huge lenz, more than normaly).
I'm shorting the coil with mosfets that are driven by a flyback circuit were i can adjust pulse width and frequency(http://www.eleccircuit.com/efficient-flyback-driver-circuit-by-ic-555-irf510/).
This circuit is ok but is not giving me the signal that i want: it can not make the ''pulse'' shorter than ''no pulse''
Can any one help me with a better circuit? 
Thanks!

gyulasun

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5567 on: February 07, 2012, 01:22:28 PM »
Hi Marius,

Here is a 555 timer circuit with independly variable duty cycle and frequency adjusting possibility:

http://www.overunity.com/8597/solid-state-orbo-system/msg234095/#msg234095 

The output of this can go directly to the MOSFET gate as shown in your above link or if you could use a MOSFET driver like TC4422 or 4421 etc it would give a faster switch.   Also if you could obtain the CMOS version of the NE555 like LMC555CN from National Semiconductor or TLC555CP from Texas Instruments, then these types have much less fall and rise time output pulses then the old NE555 bipolar process type have, so they are able to switch faster (you could omit the 2N2222 driver but just test this, it is better to have an "isolating" stage between the MOSFET and the output pin of the 555.  And the CMOS version is fully pin compatible with the old NE555.

Gyula

mariuscivic

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5568 on: February 07, 2012, 01:51:34 PM »
Thanks Gyula!
I'll try it presto  :)

crazycut06

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5569 on: February 07, 2012, 02:11:12 PM »
Hi Gyula,
    Nice simple circuit, what cap value connected to pins 2&6 would generate a 2mhz frequency, would it be a higher or lower value? sorry for the dumb question, i don't have an ocilloscope to check.


    Thanks!

gyulasun

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5570 on: February 07, 2012, 04:49:53 PM »
Crazycut,

Well,  you have consider the frequency adjust potmeter as an R1 resistor value, besides the capacitor.   Generally an RC time constant is to be considered, the smaller the R  or/and the C, the higher their (1/R*C) value i.e. the frequency. For the 555 timer there are equations to determine the output frequency or there are charts to figure out the approximate frequency. 
Here is some charts to see some R and C values: http://www.williamson-labs.com/555-tmg-charts.htm  There is a tutorial on the 555 in their pages too.

IF you really need 2MHz frequency, then you have to use the CMOS types, like LMC555C or TLC555C because the old NE555 can run up to 120-150kHz only.   Here is a data sheet for a CMOS type, LMC555 and it turns out this type can run up to 3MHz in the astable mode and the capacitor is 200pF (minimum recommended value) and the R1 or R2 resistors are some hundred Ohms only.
see Page 5, maximum frequency test circuit:   http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lmc555.pdf   

IF you happen to have a digital multimeter which is able to measure frequency directly, you may use such instead of a scope's frequency check.

Gyula

EDIT:  here is an online circuit simulator, showing a low duty cycle 555 circuit, slightly different than what I showed above but still practical and you can check the frequency too.  And if you edit the circuit resistor or capacitor values inside the Java applet, you can see immediately their effect ( just right-click on the component you wish to adjust).
http://www.indiabix.com/electronics-circuits/555-low-duty-cycle-oscillator/

Notice:  in this latter circuit when you vary the duty cycle or the frequency, then BOTH the duty cycle and the frequency changes.
 
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 05:58:21 PM by gyulasun »

Khwartz

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5571 on: February 07, 2012, 07:26:22 PM »
Sorry, my comment was not pertinent after well experience speaking of you, Kone  :-[
« Last Edit: February 07, 2012, 09:19:21 PM by Khwartz »

Khwartz

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5572 on: February 07, 2012, 07:33:08 PM »
Hi all
here are some photos of backing-magnets behind the cores in a "Romero-variant" machine I built...it had 4 magnet rotor, but added 4 more magnets for 8 magnet rotor in some of the photos....the configuration and strength of the magnets behind the cores is very hands-on in way to find what gives the best performance, and is very sensitive and touchy - as removing one magnet or adding one too many will kill the whole speed up effect...sometimes bring the motor to a stop.  Before the magnets, the motors went around 300rpm , after the magnets, it goes 1200rpm which is really dramatic difference and the draw remains the same too....you need to spend hours trying different numbers of magnets in the stacks, using an rpm meter to gauge any speed up to find the best configuration,,there is no rhyme or reason as to why the stacks look as they do for the particular motor you have to experiment with all the possibilities and find what the motor likes.
3 of the photos are of an 8 magnet-rotor version, 3 of them are for the 4 magnet rotor version...this is why some of the bottom and top plates show totally different stacks of magnets
Hi Kone!

Thanks for the pics, they give good reality about your motor and magnets configurations 8)

konehead

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5573 on: February 07, 2012, 07:58:13 PM »
hi Mariu
here is my pulsewidth adjsutment circuit again: (you need driver chips with it)
 
 

mariuscivic

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5574 on: February 07, 2012, 11:27:38 PM »
Thanks Konehead! i'll save it this time on my pc.
Have you cheked if your backing magnets are influencing the hall on your dynamo?


crazycut06

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5575 on: February 08, 2012, 01:25:06 AM »
Crazycut,

Well,  you have consider the frequency adjust potmeter as an R1 resistor value, besides the capacitor.   Generally an RC time constant is to be considered, the smaller the R  or/and the C, the higher their (1/R*C) value i.e. the frequency. For the 555 timer there are equations to determine the output frequency or there are charts to figure out the approximate frequency. 
Here is some charts to see some R and C values: http://www.williamson-labs.com/555-tmg-charts.htm  There is a tutorial on the 555 in their pages too.

IF you really need 2MHz frequency, then you have to use the CMOS types, like LMC555C or TLC555C because the old NE555 can run up to 120-150kHz only.   Here is a data sheet for a CMOS type, LMC555 and it turns out this type can run up to 3MHz in the astable mode and the capacitor is 200pF (minimum recommended value) and the R1 or R2 resistors are some hundred Ohms only.
see Page 5, maximum frequency test circuit:   http://www.ti.com/lit/ds/symlink/lmc555.pdf   

IF you happen to have a digital multimeter which is able to measure frequency directly, you may use such instead of a scope's frequency check.

Gyula

EDIT:  here is an online circuit simulator, showing a low duty cycle 555 circuit, slightly different than what I showed above but still practical and you can check the frequency too.  And if you edit the circuit resistor or capacitor values inside the Java applet, you can see immediately their effect ( just right-click on the component you wish to adjust).
http://www.indiabix.com/electronics-circuits/555-low-duty-cycle-oscillator/

Notice:  in this latter circuit when you vary the duty cycle or the frequency, then BOTH the duty cycle and the frequency changes.
Hi Gyula,
    Thank you for the reply, and this info surely helps alot....
Cc

konehead

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5576 on: February 08, 2012, 07:06:26 AM »
Hi Mariu
I double checked today to see if the bakcing magnets were affecting the halls, and they are not affecting them.
Also fooled around with the backing magnets again, and now the 12-Magnet rotor motorgen has stacks of five  1/4" thick magnets in the stacks all around it now, except for the bottom-plate motor coil, and that has 6 magnets in its stack.....so it looks more "normal" now with long stacks of magnet coming out of the back of each coil's backside.... but what happened is that one of the generator coils should have its backing magnet-stacks on each side of it of the opposite polarity of the rest of the genrator coils. I remember Romero saying that not all his backing magnet faced the same way on his machine too - I will guess this is because of the odd vs even thing going on (12 N rotor magnets and 5 coil positions)
By retarding the timing, I can get it to go 1140rpm, and it draws 55ma and 12V....if I advance the timing, it will go 1320rpm but then it draws 90ma and 12V not sure which is better but it seems like the lower draw 1140rpm handles a load on the shaft better.....and I doubt the genrator coils make that much more power with with 180 rpm more...that is increase in draw of .42 watts for the 1320rpm, as it draws only .66 watts at the slower speed and 1.08 watts at higher speed....

mariuscivic

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5577 on: February 08, 2012, 12:01:51 PM »
OK Konehead; that is  interesting what's going on there...
Lets say that you are running your dynamo without the backing magnets. When you start adding them, does the input power goes up and then stabilise or stays always the same?
If the input power stays the same then you really have something there( i dont think anyone  had this effect before) (then I'll kindly ask you ALL the detaills of your dynamo  :) )


crazycut06

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5578 on: February 08, 2012, 02:37:24 PM »
Hi Konehead,
   
     I beleive that romero did a reversed or vice versa polarity backing magnets (or maybe not), to compensate the cogging, im thinki'n lets say coil set#1 has a north polarity on top & south below, (N-NS-S), as the rotors magnet aproaches the coil with core, the attraction is nullyfied (with correct adjustment) then coil set#2 has a south polarity on top & north below, (S-NS-N), as the rotor approaches it is being attracted towards the coil with core (again with correct adjustment) experiment this all around the coils to get best performance in rpm and power in vs power out, my point is its making a push and pull action thus helping the rotor to spin more freely, and maybe this confirms your findings on your motorgen. don't know if it would be the same when the coils are loaded.
   
     Romero did mention (don't remember what post is it) that faster does not mean its better! what do you think kone?

Khwartz

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5579 on: February 08, 2012, 05:18:50 PM »
Hi Konehead,
   
     I beleive that romero did a reversed or vice versa polarity backing magnets (or maybe not), to compensate the cogging, im thinki'n lets say coil set#1 has a north polarity on top & south below, (N-NS-S), as the rotors magnet aproaches the coil with core, the attraction is nullyfied (with correct adjustment) then coil set#2 has a south polarity on top & north below, (S-NS-N), as the rotor approaches it is being attracted towards the coil with core (again with correct adjustment) experiment this all around the coils to get best performance in rpm and power in vs power out, my point is its making a push and pull action thus helping the rotor to spin more freely, and maybe this confirms your findings on your motorgen. don't know if it would be the same when the coils are loaded.
   
     Romero did mention (don't remember what post is it) that faster does not mean its better! what do you think kone?
Hi Crazycut!
Thanks for sharing your ideas.
May I ask you what means "cogging" here. i've checked in translation dictionaries on web and they say it's about "teeth-wheel", there is no here, so could you help me to understand in which mean you were using it please?
Cheer.