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Author Topic: Muller Dynamo  (Read 4322199 times)

mariuscivic

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5445 on: January 10, 2012, 10:04:37 AM »
Hi konehead
can you give me some more info about the 4421 driver?
Thanks!

mariuscivic

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5446 on: January 10, 2012, 12:18:06 PM »
It looks good news to me.
i couldn't find the 4421 driver but i've adapted the romero's driving circuit to those mosfets and this is the result:
- The coil without shorting  is giving me around 24V
- when the shorts occurs the rpm drops a bit but it gives me instant 70V and rises around 200V
- free spining rotor 1513 rpm
-spining rotor with shorting without charging cap 1345rpm
-spining rotor with charging cap connected 1433 rpm  ( i've tryed 56....330uF/400V)

The spikes are going off the scale of my small scope

crazycut06

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5447 on: January 10, 2012, 02:51:46 PM »


Hi Marius, nice videos,


Have you tried putting a load or a bulb at the output to see how much power you can actually use?


And how will the rotors rpm be, when loaded?




Good day!

konehead

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5448 on: January 10, 2012, 08:04:27 PM »
Hi Mariu
Thats much better - still quite a slow-down in rpms but not too bad...try smaller caps around 100uf or so...also if try different pulse widhts if that is possible and adjsut timing a bit before and a bit after the peak, and right on top of it...
Dont do idea Crazycut jsut menitoned unless you want to see it getting snuffed out - putting resistance directly on cap being shorted into will KILL IT - this coil-shorting thing doesnt like resistance in or on the cap, or in the switching either.
You MUST discharge cap into load when also at same time cap is DISCONNECTED from the "source" which happens to be the coils being shorted. (Two stage output circuit)
I think when you get it to go to 120V instantly then you will be feeling really good - best to use real MOSFETS they dont have the high internal resistance like transistors have, and hook them up bidirectionally....put a few in paralell too for ultra-low resistance...
Also its going to be hard to measure watts-output from the cap, when you cant jsut do a lump reistive load on it, like what Crazycut, and most any engineer would want to see.
So you need to calculate watts-out from this cap-discharge formula which any EE worth their salt will agree with:
FARADS of cap /2
X
(Cap voltage before discharge SQUARED  minus the cap voltage after discharge SQUARED)
X
cap-discharge events per second
= WATTS
example:
100uf cap, that has 200V in it before discharge, and 100V in it after discharge, pulsing to load 4 times per second...
So:
100uf = .0001uf
.0001uf / 2 = .00005
200 X 200 = 40,000
100 X 100 = 10,000
40,000 - 10,000 = 30,000
so put those numbers in the formula to find watts:
.00005 X 30,000 X 4 = 6 watts
 
 
 

konehead

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5449 on: January 10, 2012, 08:17:10 PM »
Hi Mariu
here is data sheet on the 4421 driver:
http://www.micrel.com/_PDF/mic4421.pdf
most any online electronics store should have them like digikey Newark, Mouser etc...
also sometimes on ebay they have some cheap -
I like the style of ones like shown in the PDF above - fairly large chips, that pop into a a 8pin socket that is soldered to circuitboard before you pop chip in,,,,

- its also nice that by using  a 4422 instead of 4421, it turns the mosfets into a normally ON switches OFF type of switch, while with 4421 driver, it is normally OFF and switches ON, so this is one way to do a two-stage output circuit; where the cap disconnects from the coils or FWBR whenever the cap hits a load.
Also interesting is that I noticed you get 100rpms more when coils short INTO cap, as compared to no cap and just coil shorting going on...this to me means if you use an even smaller uf size cap, it will work better for you...
Try mosfets bidirectional like in my circuit. because  you are switching AC oscillations....
 
 
 

mariuscivic

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5450 on: January 10, 2012, 09:14:13 PM »
Hi konehead!

Thanks again for all the info  :)
Right now the results are a bit different. The speed up effect is gone; it was the FWBR that was not working soo well( it doesn't like HV). After replacing it i got better results:
-the 330uF cap goes to 300V  in less than 60 sec without droping rpm and still rising. The driving coil sucks only 15 mA more when shorting the gen coil
-12V 55mA rotor spining free
-12V 70mA rotor spining with shorting the gen coil
 I have used IRFP460 just like you said and they work great! Now i have to find this MIC4421 driver and see if there is any difference in everything.
For now i want to get to the point where there is no droping in rpm when shoring the coil
Konehead what was your result with this circuit?

konehead

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5451 on: January 11, 2012, 07:40:28 AM »
Hi Mariu
Sounds good glad you like the IRFP460s...are there two bidirectional now too with gates and source leads connected?.....
try 4 in paralell, and annother 4 in paralell with the two clusters of 4 hooked bidirectional....this would be ultra low resistance this way...they have some 40A 500Vmosfets about same price as the IRFP460s cant remember the number for them but you can google "40A 500V NPN mosfets" and find them...
I dont think the driver will make that much difference for you right now actually its just something that you "should" have whenever working with mosfets - the driver will make for a very very fast cut-off and turn-on, and they can make it so the mosfets will do high frequencies without any glitches too,
Basically you are supposed to use a driver with mosfets or the engineers will scream at you is real reason!  (Romero didnt use them either)
I cant say the difference with driver and no driver really - it seemed pretty much the same to me with or without like I did two summers ago without them, but I will say the driver improves performance 15% but this is sort of imaginary since I never did side by side tests to check...I am sticking with always drivers with mosfets in future so that is all I can say...
you might want to try a 80uf or 60uf or 40uf AC type cap IN SERIES on one of your AC legs of the FWBR.....a "high bypass filter" is official designation of this cap....Tesla used to do this with his spark-gaps too....shorting coils is very similar to spark gap stuff since they both create the ringing...When you use one of those AC caps in series, they also "Absorb" the backemf/lenzlugging too on the output to a load,  so they serve a dual-purpose....
this means you can get by with NO "two-stage output circuit" by using the AC cap and just plug in your load on the DC side output of the FWBR...I sort of consider this cheating nowadays, and the two-stage or diode plug is much better way to go but you might want to check it out maybe you can really nail it down better than I ever did using the AC caps - its basically a matter of trying lots of UF sizes in the AC cap and see what doesnt affect the speed of filling the cap, and also makes it so the load doesnt affect draw so its a balancing act of finding the best compromise of speed of cap filling up and no lenz lugging at same time.....
for examples: 6uf will make absolutely no lenz lugging (and now you cna go with wide pusle width too) but the cap will fill up slow...
100uf will let lots of power go through to fill cap very fast, but you will get some lenz lugging probably - so now you would want to change pulse width....it goes like that....

I cant really say what the results are but you will get 3 times the votlage instantly and 20times the votlage in cap over time when it is working good - seems like you are already there......so your results right now are pretty mcuh what I get too
There really are two sides to this: filling the cap without affecting draw, or affecting it very little --- and then there is discharging caps to load without affecting draw, or affecting draw very little....
try AC cap in series on AC leg of FWBR maybe is good next step for you since then you can start testing with a load too..
You might not want to worry too much about any small amount of extra draw when shorting you get - the extra power made is worth it.... to make it totally lenz-free, you are probably going to have to have a finite adjust to the pulse width...and cap size will always be different for the different pulse widths too....
 
 
 

Khwartz

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5452 on: January 11, 2012, 11:12:25 PM »
It looks good news to me.
i couldn't find the 4421 driver but i've adapted the romero's driving circuit to those mosfets and this is the result:
- The coil without shorting  is giving me around 24V
- when the shorts occurs the rpm drops a bit but it gives me instant 70V and rises around 200V
- free spining rotor 1513 rpm
-spining rotor with shorting without charging cap 1345rpm
-spining rotor with charging cap connected 1433 rpm  ( i've tryed 56....330uF/400V)

The spikes are going off the scale of my small scope
8)

Khwartz

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5453 on: January 11, 2012, 11:21:47 PM »
Also its going to be hard to measure watts-output from the cap, when you cant jsut do a lump reistive load on it, like what Crazycut, and most any engineer would want to see.
So you need to calculate watts-out from this cap-discharge formula which any EE worth their salt will agree with:
FARADS of cap /2
X
(Cap voltage before discharge SQUARED  minus the cap voltage after discharge SQUARED)
X
cap-discharge events per second
= WATTS
:-bd

Quote
example:
100uf cap, that has 200V in it before discharge, and 100V in it after discharge, pulsing to load 4 times per second...
So:
100uf = .0001f
.0001f / 2 = .00005
;)
Quote
200 X 200 = 40,000
100 X 100 = 10,000
40,000 - 10,000 = 30,000
so put those numbers in the formula to find watts:
.00005 X 30,000 X 4 = 6 watts

konehead

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5454 on: January 12, 2012, 06:51:37 AM »
Hi Mariu
I did some coil shorting tonight with a new big Muller-type generator I built recently and its going around 275rpm with 8 farily large magnets in rotor - the thick-wire genrator coils dont make much voltage at all on purpose since I want to coil short them for the voltage, instead of speeding up rotor to get more voltage...this particular generator makes 60hz at 275 rpm so am trynig to keep the rpms at that speed..
anyways it wasnt so impressive until I went down to a 22uf "capture" cap then the voltage really zings right up to 100V near instantly from only 10V being made without shorting  - and climbs to 300V over some time....all with no effect at all to motor coil draw...
I was usng 1000uf and also470uf  before and the volts-clmb was pretty slow....anyways besides low resistance in the swtiching, and no resistance across cap when it fills, the size of the cap is very important for good results I think too... can you try a 22uf cap or 10uf and see what happens for you with cap that size?

chalamadad

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5455 on: January 12, 2012, 09:10:20 AM »
Hey Kone & Marius - and then test a few more of those small caps in parallel too!

mariuscivic

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5456 on: January 12, 2012, 10:46:22 AM »
Hi Kone and Chalamadad

I'm still shorting the coil and trying different coils and caps. What i want to do is filling a my big cap 47000uF/50V. First i was using a 800 turns coil with 0.4mm wire and this was very good only for small size caps. Now i have a small coil 200 turns/0.8mm wire (sewing spol). The small coil produces a little less voltage than the big one but it is charging my big cap. It takes some time to arive at 30V but this is real power since the big cap has also more current in it.
-small coil is generating 3V with no cap and no coil shorting
-small coil is filling the big cap until 9V with no coil shorting
-small coil fills the cap at 9V to 30V in around 1 minute but it doesn't stop there; the cap is still charging but slowly .

The bad thing about big caps is that when connected (even charged to 30V) it creates aditional drag to the rotor.The small size cap (56uF/400V) doesn't create aditional drag. For now i'm shorting only half of sine wave becouse of my magnets from the rotor( the AC sine wawe is a bit different than the clasical AC wave.) I must make another rotor , and the distance betwwen the gen magnets and triggering magnets must be bigger than my curent rotor in order to do the shorting for a smaller period of time
 

wattsup

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    • Spin Conveyance Theory - For a New Perspective...
Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5457 on: January 12, 2012, 03:05:32 PM »
Hi Kone and Chalamadad

I'm still shorting the coil and trying different coils and caps. What i want to do is filling a my big cap 47000uF/50V. First i was using a 800 turns coil with 0.4mm wire and this was very good only for small size caps. Now i have a small coil 200 turns/0.8mm wire (sewing spol). The small coil produces a little less voltage than the big one but it is charging my big cap. It takes some time to arive at 30V but this is real power since the big cap has also more current in it.
-small coil is generating 3V with no cap and no coil shorting
-small coil is filling the big cap until 9V with no coil shorting
-small coil fills the cap at 9V to 30V in around 1 minute but it doesn't stop there; the cap is still charging but slowly .

The bad thing about big caps is that when connected (even charged to 30V) it creates aditional drag to the rotor.The small size cap (56uF/400V) doesn't create aditional drag. For now i'm shorting only half of sine wave becouse of my magnets from the rotor( the AC sine wawe is a bit different than the clasical AC wave.) I must make another rotor , and the distance betwwen the gen magnets and triggering magnets must be bigger than my curent rotor in order to do the shorting for a smaller period of time

@mariuscivic

Instead of 200 turns, what would happen if you started to play the numbers and the layers. Here are two examples.

1) Take 10 wire lengths bunched together and wind 20 turns.
2) Take one wire and wind layer 1, then another wire and wind layer two but in the other direction. Then layer #3 wound as #1. Then layer #4 as #2. Put the evens numbers in parallel or series and put to one tank cap. Do the same for the odds numbers on another cap.

The other thing I was thinking about lately was this.

Let's say you keep your set-up as is. But now you get 4 or 5 very small N/O reed contacts that are positioned anywhere convenient around the wheel so that each one gets latched one after the other. So you put each fill up reed to one each capacitor and all connected in parallel to the output coil. On that same parallel you put a last N/O reed that goes to load and that reed is positioned so it always latches after the 4 or 5 fill up reeds. This will permit to charge 4 or 5 capacitors and discharge them at once without using electronics. This is just a rough description. Anyways, I think you get the idea.

Keep up the good work.

wattsup


konehead

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5458 on: January 12, 2012, 08:09:48 PM »
Hi Mariu
In that cap discharge formula, you can see the factors of how much power you get out of the cap are:  the size of the cap, the voltage drop of cap (depends on reisvive load and also pulse width too) and also the RATE of the discharges per second....
For sure a small cap fills way faster, and doesnt affect draw like a big cap will in peak coil shorting as you mention too,  but in consequence, you dont have as much power stored in cap since cap is so small - so to compensate for this, make the discharge-rate much faster....cap is filling faster, so you can then get more discharges out from it too....
you can get a pure sinewave with all-N magnet rotor - have twice as many aircored coils in stator plates as you have rotor magnets - for example if your rotor is 6 magnets at 12, 2, 4, 6 and  8 o'clock,
then have 12 aircoils at 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11, and12 oclock in the stator plate.
connect coils 1 and 2, 3 and 4, 5 and 6, 7 and8, 9 and 10, 11 and 12 IN SERIES....connect the OUT of the coil A to the OUT of the coil B....sinewave shows up on the IN of coil A and the IN of Coil B
I call this "backwards adjacent series"
This will give you perfect AC sinewave, also doubles the frequency too which is really cool - now you have 4 sinewaves per magnet-sweep of the two coils to short.....
 

mariuscivic

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5459 on: January 12, 2012, 09:38:25 PM »
Hi Wattsup!
I would like to try your ideea but unfortunatlly for me is difficult to build multifillar coils. It takes a lot of time and work since i dont have any "hi-tech equipment" for winding coils. I might try what you described but not now. Thanks!  :)

Konehead
For now i'm not going to do any calculation about in and out.
I was going to build another rotor with 16 mags N-S  but your ideea is good.
I'm a bit disapointed about the drag when i short the coil. Is not much but is there slowing the rotor. Do you have any drag when shorting? My shorts are around 200-300uSeconds.
Also you said to use aircore coil; do you use aircore coils? Is this the way to avoid drag?
When i spin the rotor around 3000rpm the shorting gen coil produces a lot of juice; is this only becouse the coil produces more or becouse is beeing shoeted for less period of time?