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Author Topic: Muller Dynamo  (Read 3510431 times)

Offline romerouk

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2011, 12:24:44 AM »
hi Romero

thanks for the driver coil shematic ( i use it since some times on my shorting coil experiment and it works great,, thanks )

So everything seems very easy to replicate. And so far, you do not use  "shorting"  on the generative coils. Only paralelling those coils, rectified  to the load-

So the main effect seems to come from the odd / even coil to magnet arrangement coupled with your addition of external magnet.

woww so simple genius

bravo

Will begin the replication ASAP

good luck at all

Laurent
before spending lots of money and time try to replicate my old example from the folowing link
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9lYTr16vdOM
Use any number of magnets but make sure that at anyone time you have a magnet in position to compensate the drag created by the coil.
use a motor to drive the rotor and make sure you start testing with a load connected then adjust the magnet up and down to eliminate the drag as much is possible and get best output. More easier than this is not possible and I have posted that info long time back.
Please keep me updated with your progress.

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #30 on: May 05, 2011, 12:24:44 AM »

Offline SkyWatcher123

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #31 on: May 05, 2011, 02:01:49 AM »
Hi folks, Hi romerouk, thanks for all the additional information. A couple years ago, I built just about the exact setup, minus the permanent magnets in stator and used repulsion, not attraction.
Though I used dual magnet rotors sandwiching a stator plate with steel washers as cores, in odd/even arrangement.

And just like your setup, I only used 1 drive coil, then 2 drive coils, though when just using the 1 drive coil, it took off like a rocket as if all the other coil/cores were not there.
If it were not an odd/even setup, my rotors would never have accelerated in that manner and would have had low rpm.
So since you're using the permanent magnets to cancel the attraction effect of the core, so you can use attraction mode of your coil, you don't need to use repulsion.
In a way, it's somewhat similar to the kawai motor, in that when pulsed to attract, you're attracting a powerful neo magnet and not needing any input to negate any drag back to ferromagnetic core issues.
Though I wonder if the odd/even geometry is even needed when using the permanent magnets to cancel ferro core attraction, though it probably helps.
peace love light
 

Offline nul-points

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2011, 07:59:20 AM »
[...]
Only 2 coils (pairs) are driving.
All other coils are connected to bridge rectifiers, each set of coils goes to a rectifier then all are connected in parallel
[...]
RomeroUK

hi Romero

excellent build - thanks for sharing!

apologies, another couple questions:

 - what is approx weight of rotor (without mags) - or what material/object did you use?

 - is there any waveform factoring or smoothing involved in the output measurements as shown in video?
  eg. Capacitor smoothing of combined parallel FWBR o/ps, or using 'moving-iron' type Volt & Amp meters?


someone suggested charging 2nd battery pack with o/p & swapping with i/p to see if operation continues longterm (sorry, can't see who whilst posting this reply - maybe Gustav?)

...just a thought - from my experiments with charging NiMHs, NiCds etc, that process is only around 50% efficient, so you'd need a bigger margin than just COP=2 to be sure of achieving sufficient i/p back from charged batteries (don't know about charging efficiency of LBAs tho')

...could this margin also apply to an attempt to loop back the existing o/p to the i/p battery (ie. would you need to supply more than**  2x the existing battery draw to keep it recharged?  i don't know)

(** 'more than' because the DC/DC conv. also has 10-20% losses)

anyway, hope the feedback development goes smoothly, whatever method you go for

thanks
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #32 on: May 05, 2011, 07:59:20 AM »
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Offline romerouk

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #33 on: May 05, 2011, 09:33:58 AM »
@nul-points
Hi,
I am not sure exactly about the weight but is about 2kg with the magnets on.
The rotor is made of Acrilyc 1.2cm thick. No smoothing in the video shown but yesterday I have added a capacitor to the load and I've got better results.
I had it running for days without loosing the charge.I have even started from 8volts in the battery and that charged and was running ok.No need to change batteries, I will try to have it running without battery just capacitors, today I will have the answer... I must get that dc/dc converter first.Even looping back I should still be able to lit a 5w bulb at the same time.

Offline nul-points

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2011, 11:18:19 AM »
thanks for the info, Romero

sounds good about the smoothing cap - what capacity did you use & what did the Vout & Iout change to?

i guess with a little more windings on the gen coils that it would be possible to generate sufficient o/p voltage headroom to use for charging the i/p battery directly, without conversion (apart from rectification, of course)


a technique that i'm finding useful (with a different experiment) is to supply a load circuit direct from a battery as usual - then connect the feedback o/p buffer capacitor to the battery via an inductor which is large enough to block switching transients between cap & battery

the cap would be ok to receive any transients from the o/p and it can develop a slight voltage increase above the battery voltage to keep a constant 'trickle' charge into the battery thro' the inductor

thanks
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 

[Edited to clarify feedback of o/p]
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 01:19:12 PM by nul-points »

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #34 on: May 05, 2011, 11:18:19 AM »
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Offline romerouk

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #35 on: May 05, 2011, 12:39:23 PM »
thanks for the info, Romero

sounds good about the smoothing cap - what capacity did you use & what did the Vout & Iout change to?

i guess with a little more windings on the gen coils that it would be possible to generate sufficient o/p voltage headroom to use for charging the i/p battery directly, without conversion (apart from rectification, of course)


a technique that i'm finding useful (with a different experiment) is to supply a load circuit direct from a battery as usual - then connect the o/p buffer capacitor to the battery via an inductor which is large enough to block switching transients between cap & battery

the cap would be ok to receive any transients from the o/p and it can develop a slight voltage increase above the battery voltage to keep a constant 'trickle' charge into the battery thro' the inductor

thanks
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
I have used a 4700uf/25v and the voltage increased to 13.8 with the load

Offline neptune

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2011, 01:01:42 PM »
@Romero UK . Thanks for answering my questions . I am not sure why you are using multistrand wire in your coils . How many strands? or is this litz wire . Surely multistrand is used for high frequency AC? To the best of my knowledge , the charge/discharge efficiency of lead acid batteries is about 80% . I s the charge discharge efficiency of caps 100% ? I think it was nul-points who suggested some coil rewinding to remove the necessity of a DC-DC converter . A simpler solution would be to rewind only the drive coils to work on a lower voltage . If you do this , include taps in the winding to optimise things .
        There is a simple way to measure complex waveforms . I think it was originally Gustav`s idea .Make a box with 2 compartments and a lid of frosted glass or greaseproof paper . Inside , fit 2 identical bulbs . Feed one from the waveform , and one from a variable voltage DC power supply .Adjust supply until both bulbs are equally bright . Read the amps and volts from the meters of your power supply . That will give you the watts . An added refinement is to use a homemade light meter consisting of a small solar cell and a milliamp meter .

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #36 on: May 05, 2011, 01:01:42 PM »
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Offline nul-points

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #37 on: May 05, 2011, 01:16:51 PM »
I have used a 4700uf/25v and the voltage increased to 13.8 with the load

excellent! -  thanks, Romero

13.8V (on-load) sounds like it would sustain some feedback from your smoothed o/p to your battery

maybe you could try a couple of diodes (say 1N4007 or similar?) in series to get a forward volt drop approx equal to the difference between 13.8V and the  i/p battery voltage (approx 12.3V on-load iirc?)  -

try first with lamp load switched in - monitoring DC current thro' feedback diode(s) (starting on high Amp range & working down, of course)

if you have any schottky diodes (eg 1N5817 or similar) you could try different arrangements of 1N4007 (approx 0.7V) & schottky (approx 0.4V) to get different forward Vdrop between buffer cap & battery

if you can't sustain 13.8V or near, with lamp load, try without lamp - but start with higher diode Vforward values first


you must be very excited about this?  (your generator build)

In bocca al lupo!  :)
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 

[Edit: add clarifications]
 
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 04:06:39 PM by nul-points »

Offline nul-points

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2011, 01:37:36 PM »
[...]
To the best of my knowledge , the charge/discharge efficiency of lead acid batteries is about 80%.
[...]
Is the charge discharge efficiency of caps 100% ?
[...]
I think it was nul-points who suggested some coil rewinding to remove the necessity of a DC-DC converter . A simpler solution would be to rewind only the drive coils to work on a lower voltage . If you do this , include taps in the winding to optimise things.

thanks for the LAB efficiency, Neptune

cap discharge *should* approach 100% (if cap/cct has low leakage, low internal series R, and you don't cause significant heat loss by the discharge currents)

however, there are losses associated with trying to get charge-separation into a cap in the first place (i had a whole thread going on this issue a couple of years back - confirming experimentally that around 50% of the supplied energy was getting dissipated in external resistance of supply load + wiring) - even when using a series inductor

some academic experiments have shown that increasing the number of pulses to switch current into a cap tends to reduce the losses

[oops - late edit!]  good idea about modding 2 driver coils, rather than 8 gen coils!   this might help if you used a stack of NiMH cells to give 8.4V or 9.6V, say, rather than the existing 12V i/p battery

if you keep the 12V i/p battery then you'd really need to bump up the output voltage  to get sufficient feedback volts - but Romero has achieved this anyway by adding the buffer cap, so no need to alter any coils - neat!


hope your cycling's been less eventful recently - bet it's been great weather to be out on a bike!
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 




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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #38 on: May 05, 2011, 01:37:36 PM »
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Offline neptune

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #39 on: May 05, 2011, 02:58:14 PM »
@Romerouk .Can you please tell us more about your magnets . Size , grade , source of supply ? and could you please comment on my question re multistrand wire . Re the coil cores . Are these just pieces of ferrite rod from an old radio , or are they commercial cores ? Sorry about all these questions , but we need as much info as possible to replicate .It would seem from the video that your battery is 17 Amp hour . So if you dispensed with the machine, and connected that lamp directly to the battery , one could reasonably expect a run time of about 9 hours until the battery voltage drops to ,say , 11volts . That is if the battery is in good condition . However you say that the machine has run for several days without substantially discharging the battery .If this is the case ,you can forget about analysing complex waveforms .In my book , this shows indisputable proof of overunity .
@nul-points . Yes fine cycling weather , thanks but very windy . On the flat lands of Lincolnshire , the winds are our mountains ...

Offline romerouk

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2011, 04:22:05 PM »
@Romerouk .Can you please tell us more about your magnets . Size , grade , source of supply ? and could you please comment on my question re multistrand wire . Re the coil cores . Are these just pieces of ferrite rod from an old radio , or are they commercial cores ? Sorry about all these questions , but we need as much info as possible to replicate .It would seem from the video that your battery is 17 Amp hour . So if you dispensed with the machine, and connected that lamp directly to the battery , one could reasonably expect a run time of about 9 hours until the battery voltage drops to ,say , 11volts . That is if the battery is in good condition . However you say that the machine has run for several days without substantially discharging the battery .If this is the case ,you can forget about analysing complex waveforms .In my book , this shows indisputable proof of overunity .
@nul-points . Yes fine cycling weather , thanks but very windy . On the flat lands of Lincolnshire , the winds are our mountains ...
The magnets are 2cm diameter with 1cm thick, not very sure about the grade, I think are N38, I have bought them long time ago.
The reason to use multistrand is that most of my devices I built I used multistrand.
Some tests from other projects before showed me that using multistrand wire I get better results.
Another reason is the type of wire I had when I started the project adn also much easier to build the coils when the wire is more flexible. I think there are 7 wires in(I am not home now to check).
The ferrite rods are recovered from computer PSU, used as filters with copper wire on them. I do work with computers and all PSU I need to replace I get the goodies out before disposal, free source for many useful components.
The battery is 17 amp but it is about 5 years old, not very good but still works.
Regarding changing the driving coils... I prefer to keep it as is, I am happy enough with the results, no need to proove anything, I know it works. I started this project not to get super power but to see how it works and if it works, so far results are good enough. I bought a DC/DC converter today and this evening I will try self looping...

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #40 on: May 05, 2011, 04:22:05 PM »
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Offline romerouk

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #41 on: May 05, 2011, 04:57:34 PM »
Something similar with my setup but a bigger scale
http://www.youtube.com/user/NewSpaceTechnology#p/u/0/JdCSbLdKVJw

"Perpetual motion is stored in the magnets.
The Magnets ARE the Motor."


"By cleverly counter-balancing their equal and opposite reactions to each other, in space and in time, partly by mechanics, partly by timing, partly by circuitry, and partly by material science, Mechanical / Electrical work can be extracted from them sufficient to show so-called Over-Unity production of Net Energy."

"That means, efficiency greater than 100%,
an actual amplification of the available energy
as opposed to a net consumption of the energy."

...... Bill Muller
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 05:25:35 PM by romerouk »

Offline woopy

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #42 on: May 05, 2011, 06:47:04 PM »

Hi Romero

Thanks for advice and sharing.

I hope all the best for the LOOPING

I am gathering the matos to replicate (have to make some ordering)
Can't wait for your result

Good luck

Laurent


Offline neptune

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #43 on: May 05, 2011, 06:58:30 PM »
@Romerouk. Thanks for your additional info , much appreciated . I would like to work on a replication , but am a bit limited financially , and have very poor eyesight . I was actually wondering if it would work with ceramic magnets from microwave ovens , as I have lots of these.I built a 50 watt wind generator with these . I ultimately would like to build an OU machine with at least 100 watts out .Could I use old radio ferrite rods as core material?When it ran for several days without discharging the battery, did it have a load , or not?
       This machine consists of two parts , a motor and a generator . Which one is OU ? My money is on the generator . So we need to drive it with the most efficient motor available .Is a pulse motor the best choice? I don't know , I am just asking . Maybe a conventional permanent brush motor is more efficient, or a brushless ? Whatever motor we use , it needs to be direct drive , to eliminate transmission losses . Also someone on another thread quoted a mathematical formula to calculate the ideal coil-magnet ratio to reduce drag. I will post it later if I can find it .An afterthought .The pulse motor could of course be made more efficient by recycling the back EMF .
« Last Edit: May 05, 2011, 07:49:23 PM by neptune »

Offline nul-points

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #44 on: May 05, 2011, 08:30:07 PM »
[...]
we need to drive it with the most efficient motor available .Is a pulse motor the best choice? I don't know , I am just asking . Maybe a conventional permanent brush motor is more efficient, or a brushless ? Whatever motor we use , it needs to be direct drive , to eliminate transmission losses
[...]

hi Neptune

have you seen any of Prof Kanarev's work?

he recently claimed to have created a self-running hybrid fluid/electromag motor/generator - details on PESwiki (& here on OU.com, somewhere)

not much detail forthcoming yet (in English, anyway) - but there was *one* short paper where he outlined something of his theories

he suggests that once a motor has been run up to speed then the most efficient way to continue driving it is by applying pulses

so it *could* be that you should hedge those bets on the generator...

...and also get one of Kanarev's motors installed on your bike - for when you meet one of them there Lincolnshire 'Mountains'!  ;)

worth checking out? 

all the best
np


http://docsfreelunch.blogspot.com
 

 

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