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Author Topic: Muller Dynamo  (Read 3789521 times)

Offline Scorch

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5985 on: January 25, 2013, 08:33:59 PM »
1/25/13

In terms of a regular rotor with all magnets facing the same direction-
Should timing, or pulse width, of the driver coil even be a consideration with regards to the rest of the system?

Considering that when the driver coil 'fires', on one magnet, all the other magnets are in different positions approaching, or leaving, their respective coils.
So, other than trying to make the driver coil as efficient as possible, I don't think timing, or pulse width, is critical to the rest of the function of the generator coils or accomplishing a resonance in said coils.

In this offset system; the driver coil pair is completely independent of what other coils are doing.
So timing, or pulse width, of the driver coil might only have an effect on ONE of the generator coil pairs at best.
And timing might only be a factor with regards to operating TWO driver coil pairs as you may want one to compliment the other.

But even with two driver coil pairs; it may be best to just make them operate as efficient as possible including BEMF recovery.
Therefore something like an SSG driver circuit may be all that is needed to accomplish desired efficiency, RPM, and resonance in the generator coils.

Or am I totally off track here?

}:>


Probably the best way to go is to just do as the doctor ordered 'first'  ;) Then modify from there if no good results.

You have the hard part done. How did Romero have his hall sensor? ;) Its the little things, that mean a lot.  ;)
Dont worry about drive consumption yet, just get the motor up to speed first, then work on getting better eff. by tuning.

Mags

Offline Scorch

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5986 on: January 25, 2013, 11:18:10 PM »
1/25/13

I didn't have to run any service calls today so I managed to throw together a new SSG driver circuit for the dynamo.
And I actually still have a few 2N3055 transistors so I used that, instead of MJL21194, because it looks cool and might actually perform a little better.
Hope I don't need to run a second driver coil therefor would have to build another. . .

That is all for now.

}:>

Offline Scorch

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5987 on: January 28, 2013, 01:29:59 AM »
Had it running today.

Was able to obtain 2,500 RPM without any major vibration issues.
Which is kind of surprising to me because this rotor is not nearly as true, and balanced, as it should be and the center hub is even a little bit offset so it's possible to see the rotor moving up, and down, a little bit when it's turning slowly. And even with the original, grease, lubrication in the bearings, it always stops in the same spot with the heavy side down.
So, this is the first time I have seen this run high at a high RPM and I pretty impressed with the mechanical performance even with all the defects and lack of proper balancing.

As it is, right now, I have to push the coils pretty hard to obtain this RPM and I still intend to continue making improvements.
The alignment of the rotor magnets is a little off as well. I must have screwed up a measurement somewhere because the magnets are not, quite, centered in relation to the coils.
I can see that I do want to go back to ferrite cores, with bias magnets, which is what this whole project is all about.
I can get get a few volts at higher RPM but there is still significant slowing under load.
And considering my current configuration is using well over two amps, just to maintain that RPM, this is not likely to get far with just air cores.

And I am questioning- Is litz wire even needed? I keep hearing this really isn't an advantage unless operating at high frequencies.
And ZFF said he managed to obtain resonance with his device which just had regular magnet wire.

So I am still trying to keep it as simplified as possible and I will, likely, just use regular magnet wire for another coil set.

The SSG drivers actually seem to work pretty good, are easy to build, and I have a full range of RPM control with the benefit of BEMF recovery which could go to a capacitor to supplement the generator output.
There is still a LOT I want to do with this. Including a better rotor, ferrite cores, improved coils, arduino control, etc, etc.

But I did produce a short video of this thing actually running.
See:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WPVzV5Ewj8Q

That is all for now.

}:>

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5988 on: January 28, 2013, 04:13:41 AM »
Hey Scorch

Do you have cores in the coils, or just the nylon hardware?

Mags

Offline konehead

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5989 on: January 28, 2013, 06:09:58 AM »
Hi Scorch
looks pretty good to me - good job so far...
you should have ferrite cores, or you probably arent going to get things happening with those backing- magnets behind the cores which is the really unique thing about the RomeroUK machines.
I think keeping the coils wound with litz wire is very good idea myself.   Litz wire is a must with anything high-frequency, and you can think of high frequency not just in HF pulsing-events or AC signal, but also flip-over events like quick  change of core polarity too, and backemfrecoil spikes too
start taking power out of your generator coils see what happens -  whole idea is to get that speed-up under load. and no braking under generator coil load, when pulling power out of the generator coils - this is done by positioning the backing magnets,  and these backing magnets not necessarily "directly" behind the generator coils, and not necessarily all facing same polarity too - only way to find out how and where to place your  backing magnets is when motor runs at certain rpm you finally choose to run it at, with all those generator coils hitting load...also stack the backing magnets up higher or lower in height to make them more or less strength too - this is other variable with the backing magnets besides the placement and the polarity they will face.
Try to take power out all at once, in all generator coils at once into same resistive load - this way its possible for the 9coils/cores vs 8 rotor magnets anti-rotational latching effect to influence the generator coils too, while they are loaded,,,there will be probably an rpm to not go past, as where the anti-latching effect of the odd vs even configuration will have no effect at higher rpms while at lower rpms it will help.
Its good to have the steel washers on back of your generator coils too, so the magnets will stick to it as you expereiment plus theu might help in the way the backing magnets affect the cores.
You should balance your rotor - its not that hard, just pound small pieces of lead into small rod-shapes, and drill hole in rotor and glue them in....use some bearings with all grease cleaned out so you have very little resistance when balancing rotor - I like to use very small tiny bearings when balancing.  Have the rotor horizontal, spin it amd see where it stops at, and so stick the lead-bits on rotor with masking tape until  your get if pretty close so it never settles same spot, spins for long time, and when it  doesnt have any "pull back" reverse rotation is good sign you have it balanced....once you get if balanced with the masking tape holding on the lead, then drill the holes and glue in the lead....you can use old battery terninals from cars for the lead. Its going to take 2 or 3 hrs to do good job balacing it but its worth it.
You should be able to make your motor coils about three times better (same rpms with less draw or same draw but more rpms however you want to look at it) when you put backing magnets behind the cores in the motor coils too...
you might be able to get the speed-up effects with aircores, but its going to be lots harder to do...its probably possible, but I havent seen or heard of it being done yet with aircores and magnets behind aircored coils..
 
 

Offline DeepCut

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5990 on: January 28, 2013, 11:13:55 AM »
colzilla, you should join Romero's forum :

www.underservice.org

DC.


Offline DeepCut

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5991 on: January 28, 2013, 11:26:51 AM »
It's running really nicely scorch. As far as power input to the SSG driver, i have run multiple coils from one SSG and got more RPM for less input when you get the timing between coils right.


All the best,

DC.


Offline wasabi

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5992 on: January 28, 2013, 12:06:13 PM »
Wouldn't there be an advantage to closing the magnetic circuit paths?
As they are configured now, the air provides a lot of resistance to the magnetic flux (reluctance) decreasing the efficiency of the whole system.

Offline Scorch

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5993 on: January 29, 2013, 01:07:56 AM »
Just another quick update.
Was able to get the current draw down quite a bit as the lubricant in the new bearings started to loosen up and 'break in'.
Now able to maintain 2,000 rpm, with coils only getting a little warm, and current draw down around 600ma. per SSG.
Of course some of that current is going back to the destination battery.

And, in response to Konehead, I have already completed some basic balancing.
At first I didn't think it was vibrating much because I couldn't really feel it by holding onto the dynamo at my work station.
But, then, I moved it to another room and started noticing that while the dynamo doesn't really shake, or walk across the table, the entire table, and floor, was amplifying the vibration.
So I did some balancing, not by adding weight but by merely drilling shallow holes, into the edge of the rotor, wherever it settles at it's low spot.
And this has helped significantly.

The best way to balance something like this is to use a pair of straight edges, on a level surface, then set the rotor, with shaft, across the straight edges.
The heavy side will always roll to the bottom. Then just mark it and drill, or grind, away some material. And I will do this the next time I take it apart.

I am most definitely going to want to upgrade to ferrite cores.
At 2,000 RPM I am only getting about 5.5VAC from one generator coil pair.
And I was surprised that, without cores, a backing magnet does nothing at all.
My first build (with larger coils that liked to fall off) had almost double the voltage just by adding one backing magnet. . .

So back to the workshop I go.
Have ordered some 1/4" X 10" Lexan disks to build new stator plates.
1/4" thick stator plate will allow my ferrite cores to be flush on the back of the stator plate and about 1/16" protruding from the coil faces.
5/16" acrylic, or Lexan, stator plates would be perfect but nearly impossible to find. . .

Will stick with litz wire, for now, since I have lots of it.
Plan to wind a whole new set of coils and will be a lot more precise this time versus just filling them up on the sewing machine.

Question: What is preferred for matched coil winding? Exact length of wire? Or exact number of turns?
Most coil specifications call for a number of turns but, unless using a precision coil winding machine, hand winding is not always layered perfectly.
So, it seems to me, the best way to ensure matched inductance is to make sure all coils have the exact, same, length of wire versus number of turns.

What do you think?

}:>


Offline Scorch

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5994 on: January 29, 2013, 01:15:59 AM »
I have run multiple coils, or even multiple windings, on one SSG.
With one trigger and separate transistors for each coil, or winding, but those always had an alignment, with the rotor, so everything triggered, at the same time, with each passing magnet.

In this case the timing is different. . .
If there is a way to operate two driver coils, triggering at different times, on a single SGG, do tell more!
Can you provide a schematic? How do you adjust the timing, between coils, on a single SSG?

}:>


It's running really nicely scorch. As far as power input to the SSG driver, i have run multiple coils from one SSG and got more RPM for less input when you get the timing between coils right.


All the best,

DC.

Offline konehead

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5995 on: January 29, 2013, 08:21:22 AM »
Hi Scorch
I would think exact length of wire would be what you should do but turns will work too probably doesnt matter too much.
Dont have the bearings have any"outside" pressure on them - if the stator plates squeeze the bearing too tight, or at all, it really affects the performance...
spray a bit of carb leacner into those beaings and loosen up the grease...you should clean them out totally clean and relube with somethign hi tech - jsut a few drops...this might get your input down to 400ma each side...invest in some ceramic bearings if you can afford it - those things work amazing...
when you install the ferrite cores, try to make the back surface where the backing-magnets go be totally flat, (with some flat farily wid metal washers to stick magnets onto)  so that you can put the magnets in any position you want, and not be so that you  "have to" put the magnets directly behind the generator coil cores....
in the MOTOR coils, directly behind cores is definetly where you want to put backing magnets (this can really help like X3 rpms with no extra draw!)
 
BUT for the generator coils, not necessarily AT ALL should the backing magnets be "dictated" by the already-positioned  generator coils and their cores ...what I found is that you might want the backing magnet  be 5 or 10 or 20 mm to the left or right of the center of the generator coils core...and when you add addional backing magnets around the stator, the next one added influences where you just postitioned the previous one, so you have to go back wna reposition what just worked" again.... plus the STRENGTH too, (how high is the stack)  of  each of the backing-magnet posutions influences what you just accomplished too, so you need to have the machine running, with load to coils hooked up, then spend hours and hours trying all different strenghts and positions to the backing magnets...I call it the Howrad Johnson effect when you get some good speed up under a  loaded coils situation, since there is no logical pattern or preconceived way the magnets are going to look and be at, and  the backing mangets will look like the stonehendge ruins in how they are stacked and postioned when you reach that final straw...what will happen is the backing-magnets will dominate and overhwhelm the "standard" magnetic forces of the cores against the ROTOR magnets, and the lenz-lugging normal stuff will dissapear since the backing magnets have "taken over" the dynamics of it all (my lame brain theory as to why anyways)
glad you tried the backing magnets with the aircores - it "might" work but you wil have to really spend some time with it...coils should be loaded, and magnets strong enough to barely knock themselves abit on the rotor magnets probably...just go with the ferrite cores and have some fun

Offline Scorch

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5996 on: January 29, 2013, 06:01:32 PM »
There is no side pressure.
And I have modified bearings in this way before, by cleaning them out and using a lighter lubricant, but I am of the opinion this requires a lot more maintenance because I have to make sure they stay lubricated as the oil is dispersed or becomes dirty. I am also of the opinion that the light grease, installed by the manufacture, actually serves the same purpose.
Yes, at first, the bearings are a little 'stiff', due to fresh grease, but the way this works is that the balls tend to displace most of the grease leaving only a light oil residue from the grease. And as time goes on, or the bearing starts to heat up, the grease melts and provides more light oil as needed.
And I can see this happening. These bearings always 'loosen up', over time, and become free as long as they are not rubber sealed bearings.

As it is; the rotor does spin easily and freely.
Is the saving of a couple tenths, of an amp, that critical?
I would think that, if yes, then there is not enough useful, surplus, power worth pursuing.

Yes; ferrite cores will be completely flush, on the back of the stator plate, and really looking forward to getting those built now that I have a plan and won't have to worry about coils falling off as I did with my first attempt.
And, rather than build a winding jig, with turn counter, and tediously wind them by hand, I think I will simply measure exact lengths of wire and wind them on the sewing machine again. Which works well and gets it done quickly.

And your theories are as good as any other.
I think in terms of attempting to use a spinning, magnetic, field to create a larger torsion field or a doughnut shaped torus with the goal of 'pulling' in additional energy, into the center of a vortex at the middle of the torus while, at the same time, there are many other 'mini' torus fields at work around, or in, the respective coils all the way down to the sub-atomic level. And the goal is to get them all working, in unison, with each other.
But there is a lot of 'stuff' around this device including the coils, hardware, imperfect windings, mismatched magnets, ferrite cores that are not absolutely, perfectly uniform, location, and alignment, with respect to the planet, etc, etc, etc.

So, GOOD LUCK, getting it all lined up, and 'tuned', properly without use of 'magic glasses' or elaborate test equipment to visualize all the spinning, magnetic, fields at work.
Some large but most operating at an atomic, electron, level that many, in the scientific field, have yet to discover. . .
And, when working properly, some of the outer fields probably look like some kind of misshaped 'star' with rounded points focusing in, or out, near each coil.

And, yes, 'fun' if you are into that sort of thing of attempting to 'tune' invisible, difficult to measure, forces that most, in science, label: "pseudo" (Greek for: False, Fraudulent, or Pretend)
Apparently the science is SO suppressed the SAME energy has MANY different names. But it's ALL the SAME, spiral, or torus, shaped stuff. . .

}:>


Hi Scorch
I would think exact length of wire would be what you should do but turns will work too probably doesnt matter too much.
Dont have the bearings have any"outside" pressure on them - if the stator plates squeeze the bearing too tight, or at all, it really affects the performance...
spray a bit of carb leacner into those beaings and loosen up the grease...you should clean them out totally clean and relube with somethign hi tech - jsut a few drops...this might get your input down to 400ma each side...invest in some ceramic bearings if you can afford it - those things work amazing...
when you install the ferrite cores, try to make the back surface where the backing-magnets go be totally flat, (with some flat farily wid metal washers to stick magnets onto)  so that you can put the magnets in any position you want, and not be so that you  "have to" put the magnets directly behind the generator coil cores....
in the MOTOR coils, directly behind cores is definetly where you want to put backing magnets (this can really help like X3 rpms with no extra draw!)
 
BUT for the generator coils, not necessarily AT ALL should the backing magnets be "dictated" by the already-positioned  generator coils and their cores ...what I found is that you might want the backing magnet  be 5 or 10 or 20 mm to the left or right of the center of the generator coils core...and when you add addional backing magnets around the stator, the next one added influences where you just postitioned the previous one, so you have to go back wna reposition what just worked" again.... plus the STRENGTH too, (how high is the stack)  of  each of the backing-magnet posutions influences what you just accomplished too, so you need to have the machine running, with load to coils hooked up, then spend hours and hours trying all different strenghts and positions to the backing magnets...I call it the Howrad Johnson effect when you get some good speed up under a  loaded coils situation, since there is no logical pattern or preconceived way the magnets are going to look and be at, and  the backing mangets will look like the stonehendge ruins in how they are stacked and postioned when you reach that final straw...what will happen is the backing-magnets will dominate and overhwhelm the "standard" magnetic forces of the cores against the ROTOR magnets, and the lenz-lugging normal stuff will dissapear since the backing magnets have "taken over" the dynamics of it all (my lame brain theory as to why anyways)
glad you tried the backing magnets with the aircores - it "might" work but you wil have to really spend some time with it...coils should be loaded, and magnets strong enough to barely knock themselves abit on the rotor magnets probably...just go with the ferrite cores and have some fun

Offline Scorch

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5997 on: January 31, 2013, 08:40:35 PM »
Preliminary testing of the system as it is, with just air cores and SSG driver, looks really good mechanically but it's clear this will need to be a more advanced build if I am to obtain anything near the desired output.

One experiment, I tried, was to simply replace the nylon screws in favor of steel screws.
The difference is clear. Using cores, and back magnets, results in a significant increase of generator output.

And because the holes in my current stator plate are too big for my cores, and the plates are too thick for the cores to reach the back, I am going to build new stator plates from 1/4" thick, 10" diameter, polycarbonate disks. Which do flex just a little bit but I am hoping they will stiffen up with the mounting bolts, and washers, in place.
Polycarbonate is very strong stuff but 1/4" is only half the thickness of the previous acrylic.
If these new plates are not rigid enough; I will have to either find longer ferrite cores or simply counter-sink the coils, with a forstner bit, into thicker plates. Which I do have on hand.

Have also decided that since the SSG is better suited for BEMF recovery versus producing useable torque; it just isn't going to be acceptable therefore a better controller is called for.
Also plan to wind a new set of coils.

So it may be a while before I have anything new to show.

That is all for now.

}:>


Offline Scorch

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5998 on: February 03, 2013, 11:50:52 PM »
I just produced another, more detailed, video of the current experiment.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u7Fb-ZQxeg0

This is still a work in progress. Not sure how far I might get with air core coils.
And already working on another build to be more like RomeroUK's version.

Just need time, and motivation, to get it done.

}:>

Offline cubalibre

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Re: Muller Dynamo
« Reply #5999 on: February 05, 2013, 12:00:07 AM »
Congrats!

Very nice clip in good quality. I am very keen to see more from your work and wish a positive progress.
Hope this helps to support your motivation.

Best regards, cubalibre