Author Topic: Muller Dynamo (Read 4344001 times)

Magluvin · « **Reply #5595 on:** February 11, 2012, 06:21:47 AM »

From what Im beginning to understand is the shorted bifi coil, if you kick it, pulse, it will oscillate and we collect output via the secondary. Im thinking that if we used just a single strand coil with a capacitor, we are missing the shorted effect of the shorted bifi. What ever that effect may be. ;]

So it is not a typical LC. Ive never tried it, let alone think of such a thing till here recently. Titos clues have been much better lately. A couple things he said the other day, just clicked.

Just gotta try.

You said that your primary was near the core and the secondary is wound on the outer part of the coil? You can always just hook it up so that your input (primary) is the outer coil and use the inner coil as the sec. ;] If the primary turns and the sec turns are the same number, your transformer/coil should work better as intended.

Thats a nice, big coil. ;]

Mags

konehead · « **Reply #5596 on:** February 11, 2012, 07:18:21 AM »

Hi all
So far, I am getting very good speed up with backing magnets behind the motor coils (X2 rpms) then I put bakcing magnets behind the generator coils and their cores and now get speed uip X 4 or X5 with those having the backing magnets there. (reported on this few days and put up those pictures too of the test machine - the "Romero variant") So thats all good I guess...
I rebuilt the ugly and cracked rotor seen in those pictures with much better new one ....and so while putting it all back together, I was testing the same Romero-variant, with JUST the motor coils, which are two facing coils in series, with ferrite cores, and 3 ohm litz-wire coils in each wound "directional"....
so just wanted to see what it was like just testing the motor coils-only - it was going fine, and found a stack of 7 backing magnets behind bottom motor coil and stack of 5 backing magents behind top motor coil gave best rpms and power... each magnet is 1" wide and 1/4" thick so "stack" of 5 magnets is 1 1/4" long...
ANYWAYS - here is what is cool thing just disconvered - with motor running around 1400rpm, I put another stack of 5 magnets on flat steel washer, and moved it around the stator plate that is normally holding in the genrator coils and does have motor coil(s) mounted ...(one top plate and one bottom plate of course with rotor magnets between like Muller stuff is )
So there are NO genrator coils, or anything else mouned on etiher stator plate while doing this experiment - and putting the "Backing magnets" - and ONLY the baking magnets, in their previous-positions I had them before, (but NOT behind any genrator coils and thier cores so now backing magnets not backing anything)
this gives HUGE speed up happeing - now pushing 1900 rpm with only one "backing" magnet in place.....this is crazy since the only thing that the backing magnet can possiblereact to, is the rotor magnets underneath or above them...the bakcing magnets are on far side of stator plate as the motor coils too, so for sure they are not reacting to the motor coils...
.its very insane - I thought it was nuts that the bakcing magnets on the unloaded gernator coils would give all the additional speed up I had before, now they do it without the gernator coils, or their cores in place....(!!)
draw stays "near the same" but goes up some with the big speed up I thiknk this is becasue the pusle width to the motor coils needs to be shorter once you start having rpms go up X4 or X5 and you keep same pulse width as slow speeds so will have to get some adjsutment for that soon too....tried do do video on it today but failed will try agin next few days...its VERY dramatic speed up and no reason "why" which is really great actually...

mariuscivic · « **Reply #5597 on:** February 11, 2012, 02:14:30 PM »

Hi Konehead
From what you are saying I understand that the backing magnets are helping spining the rotor. Your are saying that you got the speed up even without the gen coils and without affecting the input power. This is a first for all the replicators so you must a make a video

crazycut06 · « **Reply #5598 on:** February 11, 2012, 03:15:03 PM »

Quote from: Magluvin on February 11, 2012, 06:21:47 AM

From what Im beginning to understand is the shorted bifi coil, if you kick it, pulse, it will oscillate and we collect output via the secondary. Im thinking that if we used just a single strand coil with a capacitor, we are missing the shorted effect of the shorted bifi. What ever that effect may be. ;]

So it is not a typical LC. Ive never tried it, let alone think of such a thing till here recently. Titos clues have been much better lately. A couple things he said the other day, just clicked.

Just gotta try.

You said that your primary was near the core and the secondary is wound on the outer part of the coil? You can always just hook it up so that your input (primary) is the outer coil and use the inner coil as the sec. ;] If the primary turns and the sec turns are the same number, your transformer/coil should work better as intended.

Thats a nice, big coil. ;]

Mags

Hi Mags,
Hehe...tnx

Hard to wind though, yeah my primary is near the core, I don't think my primary winding is the same as my sec. but maybe i can try that shorted bifi, just need to find my pulser...

crazycut06 · « **Reply #5599 on:** February 11, 2012, 03:46:00 PM »

Hi Konehead,
Good to hear that your motorgen speeds up 4x -5x without extra draw, i think you've just discoverd something like the stargate motor with your magnets finding a position around the stator where the motor spees up, whats the orientation of your backing magnets? repelling or attracting? have you checked your generator coils voltage when adding backing magnets?
As im playing with backing magnets i found that with repelling backing magnets, voltage output of coil increases (with load connected) but rotor slightly slows down with extra draw on input, then i tried attracting, voltage output decreases dramatically (with load connected) but rotor speeds up, also decreased draw on input. what do you think is happening here?
Repelling backing magnets more voltage=more lenz

Attracting backing magnets less voltage=less lenz

This was done with 1 coil pair in series.

konehead · « **Reply #5600 on:** February 11, 2012, 08:08:00 PM »

Hi Mariu
Yes what you wrote describes all I wrote very well and much more simple...I am trying to get a video up it might take a bit of time - my rpm meter went bad while filming last one I think it is becasue the rotor is white plastic and was reflecting so am going to paint it flat black then put reflective tape on it.
Hi CrazyCut
the backing magnets behind my motor coils have alwasy giving me twice the speed at same draw since I built the two Romeor variants maybe 6 months ago...now its the backing mangets behind generator coils doubling speed and just discovered you dont need the generator coils or cores to get the big speed up this has lots of ramifications in future experiments and ideas such as air cores as genrator coils and the postioning of the backing mangets can be totally indipendent of the postioning of the cores of aircores of the generator coils too - they dont necessarliy have to be right behind all of them...I havent done loaded-genrator coils yet with backing magnets behnid them, as jsut "backed up" (pun) to testing motor coils only and influence of all the backing magnets on jsut the motoring-part of it...

Scorch · « **Reply #5601 on:** February 12, 2012, 07:18:59 PM »

Hey everybody; just thought I would go ahead and upload another progress photo.
High resolution image here:
http://www.rodscontracts.ws/images/projects/muller/MullerParts.png

I did change my plans for the coil bobbins.
Was originally going to use 10X20MM ferrite rods with off-the-shelf, fiber, washers but decided to go with 10X25MM rods and custom made washers, cut from acrylic, which resulted in a slightly longer and significantly stronger bobbin.

I am straying away from Romero's original, sewing bobbin, design in several ways including larger coils wound with single conductor, Schottky diodes, different switching, timing capability through adjustable stator plate, etc.

My goal is to be able to use just one coil as the primary mover and the rest as alternator coils.
I do like the idea of off-setting the alternator coils to reduce cogging and provide a wider sine wave from each alternator coil pair.
But not sure how this might effect the motor coil pair. And will attempt to use just one coil as a monopole motor or maybe two operating independently.

I do have 14 of the 18 coils built and hope to do final assembly over the next few weeks.

There are definitely some workmanship issues with the laser cut rotor disks that I had made locally.
Every hole, for the magnets and hub, is not quite square so the magnets are not perfectly straight and I will use a couple modified appliance parts (idler pulleys) to help square the rotor on the shaft.
Apparently; trying to cut acrylic with a laser is not real practical because the acrylic diffuses the laser resulting in widening holes, and changing angles, as the laser cuts deeper.

This may be a vibration and alignment issue and I still may be inclined to machine a new rotor from the phenolic board I have on hand.
Or find somebody with a CNC machine who can do the same cuts with greater precision.

}:>

mariuscivic · « **Reply #5602 on:** February 12, 2012, 08:11:29 PM »

Hi Scorch and all
Very nice toy you got there. I also cutting my disks with a laser cutting machine and they are not perfect. I just found a CNC machine in the other side of my country and tomorow I'll make a call to ask some prices. I want to stay at the romero design but i just cant find the ferrite cores (6mm/15mm) that fits into the sewing bobbins.
There is something that keeps ringing in my head: the washer between the coil and the backing magnet. It supposse to make a shield at the backing magnet.
This can make sense : the N of the magnet is shielded and it uses lenz as the N (and this only half wave)
What do you think?

Scorch · « **Reply #5603 on:** February 12, 2012, 09:39:45 PM »

I believe the washers are kind of like a "shield" or maybe more like a "focusing aperture" that also helps to hold the magnets.

There will also be a 1/4" of acrylic between my coils, and the washers with biasing magnets, which is also how I think Romero's was set up.
The space between the ferrite rods and the biasing magnets is, probably, not very significant.
More space just means you might need a stronger magnet or different position.

On the other hand, the size of the hole in the washer MIGHT be significant just depending on the individual build and size of ferrite rods.
I used ferrite rods from Newark (Stock No: 63R5821 Manufacturer Part No: ROD10/25-4B1) and will start with 3/8" ID X 1" OD steel washers.

I also used 1/16 acrylic and a 1 3/8" hole saw, to make the coil ends, which resulted in a finished washer around 1 1/4 OD which was then drilled to tightly fit the rods and fastened with cyanoacrylate adhesive.

I did discover some minor discrepancies in the consistency of size of these ferrite rods.
The 25mm long rods are actually a little smaller diameter than the 20mm long rods and, sometimes, there is even a few thousandths of an inch difference just from one end to the other.

I do my best to fabricate parts to properly FIT but, THEN, the MANUFACTURER, with their "PRECISION MACHINE", screws it up!

}:>

Quote from: mariuscivic on February 12, 2012, 08:11:29 PM

Hi Scorch and all
Very nice toy you got there. I also cutting my disks with a laser cutting machine and they are not perfect. I just found a CNC machine in the other side of my country and tomorow I'll make a call to ask some prices. I want to stay at the romero design but i just cant find the ferrite cores (6mm/15mm) that fits into the sewing bobbins.
There is something that keeps ringing in my head: the washer between the coil and the backing magnet. It supposse to make a shield at the backing magnet.
This can make sense : the N of the magnet is shielded and it uses lenz as the N (and this only half wave)
What do you think?

konehead · « **Reply #5604 on:** February 12, 2012, 11:09:28 PM »

Hi Scorch
My theory is the flat washer between core and backing magnets behind the cores, works as way to concentrate the flux of the magnet uch more onto the backside of the core, so that the core will become very easily "flippable" in its polarity, and for the backing magnet not to affect the core so much it becomes sort of solid-polarity throughout; so that it would be clashing on the rotor magnets as they approach, which would slow the rotor or even bring it to halt.
the "bloch wall" in a core is the point near the center of core, which is point where the core changes its polarity so it has N one side and S other as the core will be when polarized.....idea is to pull that bloch wall way back near the back-end of core with the backing magnets, so that the core will still attract rotor magnet, then repel with some good force instantly since the core's polarity is sort of on a teeter-totter from the backing magnets and the repel from polarity-flip happens right when rotor magnet moves past so this is a positon for roto magnet to get shoved, and not pullsed back, slowing the rotor, which is what lenz-law lugging does.....(theory anyways)

crazycut06 · « **Reply #5605 on:** February 13, 2012, 03:12:51 AM »

Hi Scorch, hi marius, hi konehead, hi all,
@ Scorch
I see you are planning to adjust one side of your stator plate, as kone suggest, pls. post future developments, keep it up!

@ Marius
Have you tried looking at your lokal junkshop? as romero said he got his cores from scrap computer power supply (choke coils) luckily i got some, but not all pow supply have it, so good luck on your find...
@ All
My rig now have 6 generator coil pairs, 1 drive coil pairs, still making coils, making bobbins is time consuming, and ferrite cores hard to find, trying to look for some, still playing with backing magnets, voltage out vs drag...

Good day! Crazycut

konehead · « **Reply #5606 on:** February 13, 2012, 10:45:37 PM »

hi all

I made a short one minute video that shows speed up with me holding a stack of magnets near the rotor of 8 all-N magnets....this gives 200rpm more, and also lowers draw 20ma...I did lots more experiments of this not shown in video - there are 4 different postions cut out of stator plates to put those backing magnets in, on the top and bottom plates , and every time there are more bakcing magnets, it speeds up rotor even more - in a position much closer to motor coil as shown in video, gave 300rpm more, but thants not in video...what is interesting is that there are no cores, no coils nothing but backing magnets vs rotor magnet giving the speed up.. (and lower draw) ...maybe similar to howard johnson PMM is what the effect is doing - its certainly not fillipping cores since there are no cores to flip!
(except for the backing magnet sbehind the motor coils installed already in video)
the mtoor coils have bakcing magnets behind them too in the video - they give about 200rpm more speed too, and lower draw 20ma in process...I wrote a bunch of info on the video in description box if you want more info.
video:
http://youtu.be/lRCdPqxleJQ

If this doesnt go through, type in MrDKONZEN on youtube and you can see it for sure that way in the title there of "magnet speed up" also are some videos of music from my band the Fuckedtones, (we are all fucked) plus my elelctirc car project with 12yrold kid driving it...

Scorch · « **Reply #5607 on:** February 14, 2012, 12:52:16 AM »

One thing to consider is: Proper position for the type of bearings used.

While typical ball bearings will handle "thrust" loads; they will still tend to perform better in a "radial" load configuration and you may see an increase in RPM simply by changing the position from vertical shaft to horizontal shaft.
So, unless you are using bearings engineered for "thrust" loads, might want to consider doing all testing and adjustments with shaft in horizontal position.

Otherwise the loading on your typical ball bearing will be against the sides of the inner and outer races instead of down in the groove where there is less surface contact area and less friction. When on it's side, ALL the balls are in contact with the race (due to gravity), when upright only a few balls are in contact with the race.

}:>

Quote from: konehead on February 13, 2012, 10:45:37 PM

hi all

I made a short one minute video that shows speed up with me holding a stack of magnets near the rotor of 8 all-N magnets....this gives 200rpm more, and also lowers draw 20ma...I did lots more experiments of this not shown in video - there are 4 different postions cut out of stator plates to put those backing magnets in, on the top and bottom plates , and every time there are more bakcing magnets, it speeds up rotor even more - in a position much closer to motor coil as shown in video, gave 300rpm more, but thants not in video...what is interesting is that there are no cores, no coils nothing but backing magnets vs rotor magnet giving the speed up.. (and lower draw) ...maybe similar to howard johnson PMM is what the effect is doing - its certainly not fillipping cores since there are no cores to flip!
(except for the backing magnet sbehind the motor coils installed already in video)
the mtoor coils have bakcing magnets behind them too in the video - they give about 200rpm more speed too, and lower draw 20ma in process...I wrote a bunch of info on the video in description box if you want more info.
video:
http://youtu.be/lRCdPqxleJQ

If this doesnt go through, type in MrDKONZEN on youtube and you can see it for sure that way in the title there of "magnet speed up" also are some videos of music from my band the Fuckedtones, (we are all fucked) plus my elelctirc car project with 12yrold kid driving it...

Magluvin · « **Reply #5608 on:** February 14, 2012, 04:21:03 AM »

Dont know if I had posted this here before. But concerning bearings.... My vids

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iSTfFIetYPY Using graphite

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FiGjK3P7JBY Rotor rundown pt1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVXtRSxm73g Rotor rundown pt2

The second and third vids are 2 parts of a rotor rundown from 1200 rpm. Took longer than 10min, which YT had that time limit on the vids back then.

Notice the time it takes the rotor to slow down in the last few min of pt2..
Sick slickness.

Mags

konehead · « **Reply #5609 on:** February 14, 2012, 07:45:53 AM »

Hi Scorch
I'm not big fan of thrust-beaings on vertical rotating stuff unless there is quite a bit of weight to the the rotor, then for sure thrust bearings should be used...
There are skateboard/rollerblade bearings in the test machine I put videos up of, and didnt crack open the seals and put in any special lube in these like I normally will do.
The clacking noise is the threaded SS axle not tight with the bearing on top and so the slop is making the noise.
Skateboard beaing are made to handle extreme lateral pressures, since skateboarders and rollerbladers are always doing turns so they work very well in vertical fairly lightweight machines like this, infact probably better than most thrust bearing designs of similar size. (my opinion only not fact)
Best lube in the world is "protecta" (fact not opinon) - its teflon-based works super great:
https://www.sfrcorp.com/product/protecta-precision-oiler/
they sell it in spray cans too

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Author Topic: Muller Dynamo (Read 4344001 times)

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