Hi All,

I noticed that almost every post and video talk about the tubes being used in Electrolysis of Water to be made out of non magnetic stainless steel, any particular reason why aluminum has been disregarded, It is non magnetic and doesnt corrode with water.

My company uses patented multivoid tubes made of AL 6063 - T6 for making pallets, I feel that it would provide a much better surface area. You guys are the brains maybe you can find a use of it in this project. Snaps of our pallets are available at www.toropallets.com and the customize page will give you a good idea of how the tubes are. The present dimension we use are 6mm x 100mm - Rounded edges - extuded upto 6 meters.

Ps. has anyone thought about combining Ultrasonics with Electrolysis? ie vaporize to .2 microns and then split?

leave me a message at endanger(at)hotmail.com if someone thinks it can be used.

JD.

Hi Jack

I hope to be getting hold of some aluminuim tubes early next year to compare against my ss ones.

I'm not sure why GH says that aluminium is not corrosion resistant and needs to be passivated as, I believe that, like stainless steel, aluminium forms its own protective oxide layer when exposed to the air (or oxygen), and hence self passivates. GH talks about aluminium not being corrosion resistant, but that can be said about most things in an unsuitable environment.  Conditioning stainless steel in an electrolyser causes some form of corrosion to take place on the cathode during this process. 

Aluminium was the preferred metal used in the old 'wet electrolytic capactitors', and it was the protective oxide layer that was used as the dielectric, so contrary to what GH says I think it is worth at least considering experimenting with, especially as Meyer allegedly only used tap water. I know there is someone working with aluminium electrodes at present - I think the Al oxide layer is likely better than the oxide layer of ss as it would appear to be thicker. Am I right in thinking that anodising will thicken the oxide layer further, which enables it to be stained for cosmetic purposes?

Of course the oxide layer is likely to be reduced off the cathode similar to the ss oxide layer when used in a wfc, but using aluminium as the anode might be very interesting, as it could be far more effective.  It might mean that the conditioning required of ss to get this insulating layer on the cathode might not be necessary.

At present, I'm quite sure that the depletion of oxygen at the cathode is destroying the protective ss oxide layer, but I'm not sure what is then taking place to create the white coating we get.  Is it due to a reaction with hydrogen,  impurities within the water, or the water itself. The key really, is to find out what is its composition!

SS always seems to have been the metal of choice, mainly probably because of its ability to withstand electrolytes, however, I don't see any immediate problem with Al in tap water.

Here is an image of the Tube I'm talking about. This one is already anodized. I think the advantage of Surface area would be tremendous compared to using normal round tubes.

Moreover with speacial treatment we could actually isolate the outside using a rubberized paint or surface coating, should that be required ofcourse. 100mm width, 6mm height, wall thickness of 0.98mm.

Let me know your thoughts.

I was playing around and here is what my inventory was:

Multivoid Tube length : 60mm
Pencil Lead / Carbon : 7 Pcs 1mm dia - 85mm long
Juice Straws : 7 Pcs 2mm dia Cut to 65mm
Plastic sheets: 2 pcs 200mm x 200mm x 3mm thick
Wires
9V Panasonic battery
Dual side Sticky tape - Used just one side.
Super Glue - What would this world be without superglue.
Plastic Tub

Water & Salt Water at room temperature.


Fixing the apparatus together

1) Plastic sheet one : Made holes for the Juice Straws to go through the Sheet and act as an isolator in the water to ensure that the pencil leads do not touch the aluminum surface.
2) Slide straws through the MV tube
3) Used sticky tape to stick MV tube to Plastic Sheet one.
4) Plastic Sheet 2, cut a slot so MV tube goes right through sheet and stops at the edge of Sticky tape.
5) Inserted Pencil lead / carbon through Straws and used Super Glue to stick them as one side of the straw

Experiment 1 - Tap Water

+ lead to Multivoid tube
- lead to 7 Pencil leads


Powered by 9V battery

Result - No conclusion

Experiment No 2 - Salt Water

Same configuration

- lead to Multivoid tube
+ lead to 7 Pencil leads

Powered by 9V battery

Result - Pungent Odor - Probably Chlorine? Probably the smell of Anodizing, took about 2 mins form power up.

Experiment 3 - Tap Water
No use of previous mentioned Apparatus

2 Pencil leads
+ 1 lead
- 1 lead

Result - Bubbling activity using 9 V battery.

Experiment 4 - Tap Water
Using previous apparatus - Change of wire configuration

- 6 Pencil leads
+ 1 Pencil lead

Result - Unknown - Still running, no way to check activity.

Now I read somewhere that using carbon would be the best possible Anode or Cathode as Platinum plated nickel is not so easy to come by as well as expensive and there is no for lack of a better word in my vocabulary "Erosion/Corrosion/loss of any material" I though about dipping my hands in the water being that we're carbon based but changed my mind about it. ;-)

---------

Now you'll might wonder why i put the leads into straws, well, i Figured if Oxygen was going one way and Hydrogen another then may as well find a way to channelize it on its way out. Simple logic. I Could change the configuration of wires to go 4 x 3 or 3 x 4 Anode x cathode or any possible config depending on the results I'd like to have.

So anyway... here are some snaps of what I made, if it inspires someone to try it out with a higher voltage, straight, pulsed, however you'll do it. I'd appreciate it.

I dont have the apparatus here to make it happen on the 22nd floor of a 32 floor condo.

Look forward if someone can find a solution.

Jack.

PS. The beer bottle behind was for inspirational purposes.

I did think about that, sad that it performs so bad. Well i just used a 9v batt. I'd like to try something a bit juicier..

I tried Ultrasoncis - 1.4 Mhz and tried to play with it a bit... but no luck just converts water or salt water to micronic particles.
Will see if I can find a way to soup up to the 13.56 Mhz under water - this seems to be the lucky number when it come to Kanuzius...... did i get his name right?..... Never know what the outcome could be. I keep my mind open to possibilities.

Here are the lines i was thinking on - Image below. I wish, I wish I could find a way to use the aluminum. The guys at purdue are using Al, though it wouldnt make it really free would it. The black rods could be Tungsten-Carbide, Carbon, Graphite, Stainless Steel, Nickel (Plat Plated), FLINT.

Flint don't ask me why i thought about that, flintstones, cos i smoke and my zippo has one.... dont know.

Electrolyte - That is a big problem, I'd like to work with just water but looks like thats not as simple as it would seem. I've been researching liquids that have a good latent heat storage and came up with d-limonene, its an essential oil, don't know if that would work, its acidic but its still Oragne peel extract, Let's see.

Jack.

Did this in Goole Sketchup - Pretty nifty tool show what you want to quick.

G'day JackDaniels,

Interesting concept, For a suitable high voltage generator have a look at this:

http://www.uoguelph.ca/~antoon/circ/hv/hvdcgen/hvdcgen.html

Hans von Lieven

Thinking out Loud again.......

If I were to assume that Stan wasn't and engineer of sorts and didn't have much to know about H2O, Electrons, Ions or having a PHD in physics and electricity etc.... If I were in his place I'd keep things simple.

Given that his videos are from late 70's to early 80's.... i would presume the following.

Use what you have now.

Automobile.
Ignition system, Ignition coil, distributor, spark plugs..... he mentions pulsing... isn't that what the distributor does? Pulses down to the spark plugs? at 600 rpm engine idle speed 4 spark plugs getting power is fairly fast. At 3000 rpm.... that even faster and at 5500 rpm... probably the highest during the period before blowing the engine it would have been at the speed of light.

Did anyone pay attention to Stans Idle RPM? - That would give you your Pulse timing. - PS: What is this motor doing in the image, is that a AC motor running a dynamo to provide DC or something else?

Seasons greetings & happy holidays everyone.....

  I've still got googly eyes trying to get my little cell to funciton well.

I spent the day today trying to figure out why the water turned yellowish and why I had white/gray flakes in them.

Got the answer and probably a solution too.
The water turned yellowish, because the screws i used werent really SS. So they did end up rusting and the MMV's had a galvanic reaction.

Then on the other hand, the water was going flaky because of the natural impurities, especially since i used direct tap water and not filtered water. Turns out that you could even end up with black flakes if youre using a Activated Carbon water filter.

There's not much i can do about the quality of water, so i'm just going to skip it and not bother using RO water or Ozone water. Don't know if O3 would help!

Now coming to the galvanic reaction caused by aluminum and a not so real SS, I think the answer would be in using Aluminum all the way as a cathode and as an anode without dipping contact leads into the electrolyte. I found a positive progress when i tested it today in another experiment.

So what i came up for a possible design is attached as the image below, get the aluminum all the way out of the electrolyte to the top and keep it seperated by plastic.

Anode Hollows can be filled with 1mm thick stips of Aluminum as Cathotes and vice versa. This way I will be able to optimize bubble formation, both outside as well as in the hollows.

If I were to think about pulsing.... I would use the cells in pairs or trips as independent blocks. That way.... at low speed pulse first three cells as demand goes up activate the next and the last block. I know there is a way of doing that but need to work out the details after i pass this simulation test im head.

If anyone has a reason why using Aluminum as a Cathode and an Anode pose a problem please let me know so I can use time and resources better.

Jack

PS. I noticed that anodizing a marine grade material may not be the best idea as it becomes a bad exchanger.... I've seen a lot more action from the non anodized areas.