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Author Topic: The problem of freezing  (Read 12736 times)

buzneg

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The problem of freezing
« on: December 01, 2007, 08:23:30 PM »
where I live the water will freeze during the winter. How can I prevent that?

Cap-Z-ro

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Re: The problem of freezing
« Reply #1 on: December 02, 2007, 01:31:36 AM »

I'm not sure if using anti-freeze to the water would enhance or hinder the electrolysis process.

I Don't believe anybody tried using those blue toilet thingy's to keep the unit clean either :)

Farrah Day

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Re: The problem of freezing
« Reply #2 on: December 02, 2007, 11:09:15 AM »
I guess this is a problem that most of will be facing at some stage... I wonder what old Meyer's answer to this was?

Anyway, in the old days of wet electrolytic capacitors, they prevented the electrolyte from freezing by adding 30% ethylene glycol, otherwise known as everyday car anti-freeze.

Obviously their capacitors were not designed to function as our wfc, but I would expect this anti-freeze to be fairly stable and inactive otherwise they would have had issues with plate contamination or gases given off.

It might be useful to find out how the manufacturers of 'hydroboosters' get around this problem.

I'm personally some way off worrying about this yet, but hopefully that time will come.

Cap-Z-ro

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Re: The problem of freezing
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2007, 03:12:38 PM »


Interesting...so they did use anti-freeze after all.

Now I guess...was the mixture still drinkable afterward, wood be the burning...or not so burning question, as the case may be?

Apparently somebody has yet to try the 'blue brick' technique tho :)

Farrah Day

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Re: The problem of freezing
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2007, 07:22:32 PM »
Sorry Capz, lost me again.

Why would you want to drink the water in the electrolyser?

bosr

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Re: The problem of freezing
« Reply #5 on: December 04, 2007, 05:01:35 AM »
I've been pondering freezing as well, it is well below freezing where I live and the cell I'm putting together is to be used as a booster in my vehicle :(  Guess I'll have to play around with different anti-freeze components and post what I find.

Does anyone know of bad/corrosive fumes coming out of these anti-freeze components?

Farrah Day

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Re: The problem of freezing
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2007, 10:59:45 AM »
As I said above they used to use ethylene glycol in wet electrolytic capacitors and they would certainly have had problems if dangerous fumes were generated in use.

However, as we will have current flow through the cell and water ionising, there might well be reactions not specifically recorded anywhere that we have to be mindful of.

Guess it will be suck-it-and-see!

bosr

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Re: The problem of freezing
« Reply #7 on: December 04, 2007, 04:05:51 PM »
Yep, just do it.  Guess I'm in a good position to test the theory.
Have a nice day.

TheOne

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Re: The problem of freezing
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2007, 01:46:12 AM »
Alcohol can be used to stop the freezing in water?

MrMag

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Re: The problem of freezing
« Reply #9 on: December 05, 2007, 02:48:10 AM »
where I live the water will freeze during the winter. How can I prevent that?

Water in a glass, toilet, bath tub, pond ????

People around here that have fish ponds put in a bubbler. As long as the water is moving it will be harder to freeze.


bosr

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Re: The problem of freezing
« Reply #10 on: December 05, 2007, 03:06:45 AM »
where I live the water will freeze during the winter. How can I prevent that?

Water in a glass, toilet, bath tub, pond ????

People around here that have fish ponds put in a bubbler. As long as the water is moving it will be harder to freeze.

My guess is that it would not be very efficient to agitate water in a car while it sits dormant.

ResinRat2

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Re: The problem of freezing
« Reply #11 on: December 05, 2007, 04:18:32 AM »
Looking up the properties of an electrolyte such as Potassium Hydroxide:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Potassium_hydroxide

We see that it has a saturation point in water of 1.0 grams KOH able to dissolve in only 0.5 grams of water.

The freezing point depression of water can be calculated from the molal freezing point constant for water which is defined as:

Kf = 1.86 ?C  -  kg. water 
                 Moles Solute

So if we make a Table with the calculated values for the freezing point depression of water as Potassium Hydroxide is added we get the following:

%KOH in Water   Freezing Point (?C)   Freezing Point (?F)  
         0                         0.0                      32.0
       10                        -3.7                      25.4
       20                        -8.3                      17.1
       30                       -14.2                       6.4
       40                       -22.1                      -7.8
       50                       -33.1                    -27.7

Once you start getting above 40% KOH in water the viscosity of the solution starts to increase and that is why I stopped at 50% solids.

Theoretically the saturation point of KOH in water is 1.5grams KOH will dissolve in 0.5 grams of water. Calculating that freezing point depression we get a freezing point of:

(1.86?C ? kg water)    (1.0 grams KOH)  ( 1 mole KOH)     =  -66.3?C 
    ( Moles KOH)         (0.0005 kg water)  ( 56.1 g. KOH)

Which is -87?F.  Of course this is theoretical and doesn't take into account solubility changes at lower temperatures. I think the water would be of such high viscosity it would barely move, but it does show how salt based electrolyte can lower the freezing point of water on its own.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2007, 11:53:07 AM by ResinRat2 »

Cap-Z-ro

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Re: The problem of freezing
« Reply #12 on: December 05, 2007, 04:30:01 AM »

Axuelly, I was just kidding about the 'blue toilet brick' - and about drinking the water from the electrolyser...and now I hear people drink the water from the 'joe cell'.

Go figure huh :)

kyhydro

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Re: The problem of freezing
« Reply #13 on: December 05, 2007, 03:19:08 PM »
I think some type of alcohol would be best.  But your cell can't get hot or the alcohol would boil off and be burnt in the engine.  This wouldn't be an issue for the engine but you would have to replace the alcohol everytime you shut off your vehicle.
Ethanol boils around 172F, 78C and methanol 147F,64C.   Windshield washer fluid is mostly alcohol, HEET is methanol, some fuel stations sell ethanol (don't know the percents.) 


bosr

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Re: The problem of freezing
« Reply #14 on: December 06, 2007, 04:57:35 AM »
Thanks guys...I'll have a go at testing your ideas once I get my cell built and conditioned.  May be a while before I'm finished due to schedule, blah blah...

Do you suppose there's any way to store enough solar energy to heat the water?  Without making my car a rolling solar panel that is.