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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: billmehess on November 11, 2007, 11:32:08 PM

Title: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: billmehess on November 11, 2007, 11:32:08 PM
Lately I  have noticed greatly increased levels of poor behavior in responding to posts. This needs to stop!
Ideas and projects will stand or fall on their own merit. It is not necessary to resort to the really terrible level of name calling that has become so common on this site.
We as adults would not stand for this if our children were acting this way and we should not accept it from our peers.
We can agree to disagree but to stoop to the levels which I see are occuring way to much is really unacceptable and foolish.
We know were all on this edge of "fringe science" Most of what we see posted will never become reality. But we continue with our work in hopes that maybe someone else will pick up the gounlet and move forward.
When we disagree with someone lets take the high road and offer constructive thoughts and comments. I am not signaling
out any one person to many are guilty- stop it!!
We have been affordable a wonderful forum to voice our views  lets use it in a adult way and stop this foolishness!
Please don't respond to this by saying "Well if they wern't so stupid then I..."
Stop it NOW!!
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Tink on November 11, 2007, 11:43:28 PM
Amen!
You dare saying what I have been thinking for a long time Bill.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: hansvonlieven on November 12, 2007, 12:01:54 AM
G'day Bill and all,

It is fascinating to watch that the behaviour you are talking about is isolated to just a few threads, In most threads this does not happen.

Magnet motors is one of the worst in this regard.

Interesting, isn't it?

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Omnibus on November 12, 2007, 12:15:20 AM
Now, look who's giving opinions--the biggest offender. As for the magnet motors, these are the most promising. Remember, in this area (SMOT being part of it) it has been conclusively proven for the first time that CoE can be violated. No other area has so well expressed, rigorous scientific evidence to that effect. No wonder why the tensions are higher here. In addition, here's the first promising application of SMOT for continuous production of energy from nothing--@xpenzif's motor. Exciting times.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Tink on November 12, 2007, 12:20:10 AM
Sigh
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: billmehess on November 12, 2007, 12:20:19 AM
Stop this! You are a better person than this.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: shruggedatlas on November 12, 2007, 12:26:40 AM
Now, look who's giving opinions--the biggest offender. As for the magnet motors, these are the most promising. Remember, in this area (SMOT being part of it) it has been conclusively proven for the first time that CoE can be violated. No other area has so well expressed, rigorous scientific evidence to that effect. No wonder why the tensions are higher here. In addition, here's the first promising application of SMOT for continuous production of energy from nothing--@xpenzif's motor. Exciting times.

Lisa, in this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: z_p_e on November 12, 2007, 12:44:28 AM
Stop this! You are a better person than this.

I think it's in his blood. There are others here as well. They are the way they are, and they're not about to change, just like you or I are not about to.

The best way to deal with folks like this, is to ignore them.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Omnibus on November 12, 2007, 12:47:54 AM
Stop this! You are a better person than this.

I think it's in his blood. There are others here as well. They are the way they are, and they're not about to change, just like you or I are not about to.

The best way to deal with folks like this, is to ignore them.
You may ignore all you want but I'll not ignore you if you begin pushing incompetence as truth. Arrogant incompetence pushed impudently mustn't remain unpunished. Don't get me wrong, you haven't done this but I'm just saying.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Omnibus on November 12, 2007, 12:56:56 AM
Now, look who's giving opinions--the biggest offender. As for the magnet motors, these are the most promising. Remember, in this area (SMOT being part of it) it has been conclusively proven for the first time that CoE can be violated. No other area has so well expressed, rigorous scientific evidence to that effect. No wonder why the tensions are higher here. In addition, here's the first promising application of SMOT for continuous production of energy from nothing--@xpenzif's motor. Exciting times.

Lisa, in this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
See, the thing is, you don't even know exactly what you're talking about. You've heard this and are repeating it without deeper knowledge of it. You should know that laws of thermodynamics aren't disobeyed in most cases even with this discovery. What we are talking now is about one very special case which, of course, is enough to overthrow the general validity of CoE. However, technical thermodynamics or chemical thermodynamics remain as we know them. Those who have taken courses in these disciplines, take chemical thermodynamics, for instance, know that in the very introduction a statement is made that all observations will be in absence of magnetic fields. Of course, in the future the exception may become the rule because efforts will be redirected into exploring what now is the exception. For obvious reasons. As of today and foreseeable future, however, not to worry, chemical thermodynamics will still govern basic education in, say, chemistry.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: billmehess on November 12, 2007, 01:00:33 AM
The purpose of this forem is not to ignore but to contribute. Contributions can be responded to in a postive manner, even if one does not agree with them this benefits everyone.
Namecalling and belittling  benefit nobody.
Nations do this we don't have to.
It's somethimes hard to change but change we must!
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Omnibus on November 12, 2007, 01:07:28 AM
The purpose of this forem is not to ignore but to contribute. Contributions can be responded to in a postive manner, even if one does not agree with them this benefits everyone.
Namecalling and belittling  benefit nobody.
Nations do this we don't have to.
It's somethimes hard to change but change we must!
It's not about agreeing with someone. It's about impudence in pushing wrong ideas as truth which must not be allowed. Science is not a democracy. Not everything goes in Science. It is intrinsically intolerant and whoever abuses it must bear the consequences.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: shruggedatlas on November 12, 2007, 01:12:07 AM
Now, look who's giving opinions--the biggest offender. As for the magnet motors, these are the most promising. Remember, in this area (SMOT being part of it) it has been conclusively proven for the first time that CoE can be violated. No other area has so well expressed, rigorous scientific evidence to that effect. No wonder why the tensions are higher here. In addition, here's the first promising application of SMOT for continuous production of energy from nothing--@xpenzif's motor. Exciting times.

Lisa, in this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
See, the thing is, you don't even know exactly what you're talking about. You've heard this and are repeating it without deeper knowledge of it. You should know that laws of thermodynamics aren't disobeyed in most cases even with this discovery. What we are talking now is about one very special case which, of course, is enough to overthrow the general validity of CoE. However, technical thermodynamics or chemical thermodynamics remain as we know them. Those who have taken courses in these disciplines, take chemical thermodynamics, for instance, know that in the very introduction a statement is made that all observations will be in absence of magnetic fields. Of course, in the future the exception may become the rule because efforts will be redirected into exploring what now is the exception. For obvious reasons. As of today and foreseeable future, however, not to worry, chemical thermodynamics will still govern basic education in, say, chemistry.

First of all, lighten up.  That was a Simpsons reference.  It does not demand a fully thought-out rebuttal.

Next, the First Law of Thermodynamics states, "The increase in the internal energy of a system is equal to the amount of energy added by heating the system, minus the amount lost as a result of the work done by the system on its surroundings."  See, no room for energy out of nothing.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: IronHead on November 12, 2007, 01:17:21 AM
Edit : no need to post here
Not relative to this thread
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: billmehess on November 12, 2007, 01:18:25 AM
In the end ideas and concepts will stand or fall on their own merit. Lets address them directly not by attacking personally that individual that proposes them. What do we accomplish by insults and namecalling and implying that a person is incompentent or without merit.
We are all ignorant of different things.
Change is hard!
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Omnibus on November 12, 2007, 01:26:22 AM
Now, look who's giving opinions--the biggest offender. As for the magnet motors, these are the most promising. Remember, in this area (SMOT being part of it) it has been conclusively proven for the first time that CoE can be violated. No other area has so well expressed, rigorous scientific evidence to that effect. No wonder why the tensions are higher here. In addition, here's the first promising application of SMOT for continuous production of energy from nothing--@xpenzif's motor. Exciting times.

Lisa, in this house, we obey the laws of thermodynamics!
See, the thing is, you don't even know exactly what you're talking about. You've heard this and are repeating it without deeper knowledge of it. You should know that laws of thermodynamics aren't disobeyed in most cases even with this discovery. What we are talking now is about one very special case which, of course, is enough to overthrow the general validity of CoE. However, technical thermodynamics or chemical thermodynamics remain as we know them. Those who have taken courses in these disciplines, take chemical thermodynamics, for instance, know that in the very introduction a statement is made that all observations will be in absence of magnetic fields. Of course, in the future the exception may become the rule because efforts will be redirected into exploring what now is the exception. For obvious reasons. As of today and foreseeable future, however, not to worry, chemical thermodynamics will still govern basic education in, say, chemistry.

First of all, lighten up.  That was a Simpsons reference.  It does not demand a fully thought-out rebuttal.

Next, the First Law of Thermodynamics states, "The increase in the internal energy of a system is equal to the amount of energy added by heating the system, minus the amount lost as a result of the work done by the system on its surroundings."  See, no room for energy out of nothing.
That's because, as I said, regrettably, your knowledge in these matters is only marginal. This can be improved, I'm not saying it can't but as of today it's in a sorry state. Now, regarding the definition you gave. That's an expression of the 'transformation' part of the principle of CoE. This part I've never said has been violated and, as a matter of fact, I'm using exactly this part in my analysis. In the US the 'principle of conservation and transformation of energy' is uttered, to simplify life, as 'principle of conservation of energy' but, as I said, it really has two sides. In sciences nowadays said principle is mostly applied having in mind its 'transformation' aspect. And it holds good, as I already said. This is in fact what you have cited and no one has any quarrel with it. It's interesting to take a look at Lomonosov's works who very well may be the true discoverer of that principle. You'll see there that still in those days the principle was presented and recognized with its two sides.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: nightlife on November 12, 2007, 01:37:25 AM
 Respect, what exactly is that? Respect is an assumption of good faith and competence in another person or in the whole of oneself. Depth of integrity, trust, complementary moral values, and skill are necessary components.

 Please keep this in mind the next time you disagree with someone. Try to just agree to disagree and or help them out if know of a better way.

 I have noticed that magnetic motors are the hardest and in most cases, the most impossible motors to get people to believe that they can and or do work.
 I have personally came across a few that can work if they just changed and or added a couple things. You all would not believe how close a couple of these members are to achieving over unity using just permanent magnets.
 
 I have figured out a way to achieve over unity using electronic magnets and now thanks to a few others here, I now can do it using permanent magnets. Please don?t make fun of people or call them names because you don't agree with them, you would be surprised by what others can learn from others mistakes and if you chase people away by being disrespectful to them, then we will have less people making mistakes that some others can figure out and perfect them to actually work.

 Remember this as well as the fact that disrespect is what is hurting mankind more then anything else.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Omnibus on November 12, 2007, 01:42:54 AM
In the end ideas and concepts will stand or fall on their own merit. Lets address them directly not by attacking personally that individual that proposes them. What do we accomplish by insults and namecalling and implying that a person is incompentent or without merit.
We are all ignorant of different things.
Change is hard!

This is very idealistic and the world would've been a much better place if indeed ideas and concepts will stand or fall on their own merit. This is never so. There has always been a fierce battle between ideas in Science and, unfortunately, many of the ridiculously wrong ideas such as the "theory" of relativity have taken over because those forces supporting it were waging a more efficient, ugly, better financed, meaner battle to install that "theory" while the forces who saw its flaws have been meek and naive as you are, waiting for this stupidity to collapse on its own. It will never happen without fighting it. The "theory" of relativity is an example of one of the most incorrect ideas Science has accepted in its realm of doctrines and still there are quarters in which it persists, let alone that taxpayers are paying millions upon millions for stupid experiments to verify it, something that will never happen. There have been other errors in the Sciences, many of them rightfully rejected, others still persisting in one form or another. For instance, it has already become obvious that another deeply ingrained idea, that of CoE as a general principle, also doesn't stand the scrutiny of the scientific method. Enemies of the scientific method are plenty. Opportunists seeing that it pays more to be conservative and be blind to the facts are abundant. Among these, little minds who don't even know what they're talking about but pretending to discuss science are also standing in the way. It's a mess. And the scales are overwhelmingly inclined towards the status quo. It's safer there. Therefore, someone must take measures and try to fight for reason to be reinstated in these matters. That's inevitable.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Omnibus on November 12, 2007, 01:46:27 AM
Respect, what exactly is that? Respect is an assumption of good faith and competence in another person or in the whole of oneself. Depth of integrity, trust, complementary moral values, and skill are necessary components.

 Please keep this in mind the next time you disagree with someone. Try to just agree to disagree and or help them out if know of a better way.

 I have noticed that magnetic motors are the hardest and in most cases, the most impossible motors to get people to believe that they can and or do work.
 I have personally came across a few that can work if they just changed and or added a couple things. You all would not believe how close a couple of these members are to achieving over unity using just permanent magnets.
 
 I have figured out a way to achieve over unity using electronic magnets and now thanks to a few others here, I now can do it using permanent magnets. Please don?t make fun of people or call them names because you don't agree with them, you would be surprised by what others can learn from others mistakes and if you chase people away by being disrespectful to them, then we will have less people making mistakes that some others can figure out and perfect them to actually work.

 Remember this as well as the fact that disrespect is what is hurting mankind more then anything else.
Are you going to surprise us as @xpenzif did? Go ahead, post a video. As for respect, ignorance, especially arrogant ignorance must never be respected.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: bastonia on November 12, 2007, 01:46:40 AM
@billmehess,

Thank you bringing these issues to light. 
 
In addition my personal feelings of watching these "like minded" battle it out,  is that they choose to discourage vs encourage.  This line of banter has "encouraged" me hold my thoughts, ideas, and concepts to myself, and I will probably continue this line of thought until this board becomes civilized.

As for the comment that things fall apart only at the magnet motor issues ... which is not the case, ...

Take a lesson from "everyone's grandmother" and "If you don't have something nice to say don't say it!"

Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Omnibus on November 12, 2007, 01:54:55 AM
@billmehess,

Thank you bringing these issues to light. 
 
In addition my personal feelings of watching these "like minded" battle it out,  is that they choose to discourage vs encourage.  This line of banter has "encouraged" me hold my thoughts, ideas, and concepts to myself, and I will probably continue this line of thought until this board becomes civilized.

As for the comment that things fall apart only at the magnet motor issues ... which is not the case, ...

Take a lesson from "everyone's grandmother" and "If you don't have something nice to say don't say it!"


Not so. Your grandmother is wrong. She may be right for the every day social contacts. She's wrong, however, if she also meant it when Science is being discussed. When you see injustice, incompetence, stupidity, arrogant stupidity, confront it. That's a must. If you're withholding ideas because of fears that you'll be attacked, you aren't convinced enough in these ideas.and you won't be able to defend them properly. The best then is to do what you're doing, withhold them. Believe me, it isn't a useful discussion to throw in just any idea that comes to mind. You have to think it through carefully before posting, out of respect for the other participants. Same applied to a criticism. Just to say you reject something for the sake of rejecting it is really bad style of conducting a scientific discourse, to put it mildly.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: billmehess on November 12, 2007, 01:57:52 AM
I believe bastonia's post is the core of the discussion, he is holding back his contribution until the forem become "civilized". Because of the fear of belittling I wonder how many more people like him are out there.
Egos are not important here, there are certain individuals in this forem (actually there is quite a number of them)  that I consider to be "elder statemen" . Let them come forward in a spirit of teaching and cooperation.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Omnibus on November 12, 2007, 02:02:11 AM
I believe bastonia's post is the core of the discussion, he is holding back his contribution until the forem become "civilized". Because of the fear of belittling I wonder how many more people like him are out there.
Egos are not important here, there are certain individuals in this forem (actually there is quite a number of them)  that I consider to be "elder statemen" . Let them come forward in a spirit of teaching and cooperation.
This isn't a church, my dear. I'm telling you this once more. I understand your good intentions. You're good man. But this will never happen. This is the essence of things. The more important the topic the more the tensions get into high pitch.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: bastonia on November 12, 2007, 02:05:36 AM
@Ominibus,

Fine... you and your kind are solely responsible for destroying the positive energy that once was on this site,  and all others members who have come out to learn about over-unity for the first time and you cut them down until they have no desire to continue or experience, to learn and grow on the path themselves.

The road to success takes many different roads.  There isn't just one.  If everyone takes the same road ... then there will be no new discoveries for all the journeys will become the same.

Congratulations,  by squashing so many you have doomed yourself and everyone else.

Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: shruggedatlas on November 12, 2007, 02:09:10 AM
In the end ideas and concepts will stand or fall on their own merit. Lets address them directly not by attacking personally that individual that proposes them. What do we accomplish by insults and namecalling and implying that a person is incompentent or without merit.
We are all ignorant of different things.
Change is hard!

This is very idealistic and the world would've been a much better place if indeed ideas and concepts will stand or fall on their own merit. This is never so. There has always been a fierce battle between ideas in Science and, unfortunately, many of the ridiculously wrong ideas such as the "theory" of relativity have taken over because those forces supporting it were waging a more efficient, ugly, better financed, meaner battle to install that "theory" while the forces who saw its flaws have been meek and naive as you are, waiting for this stupidity to collapse on its own. It will never happen without fighting it. The "theory" of relativity is an example of one of the most incorrect ideas Science has accepted in its realm of doctrines and still there are quarters in which it persists, let alone that taxpayers are paying millions upon millions for stupid experiments to verify it, something that will never happen. There have been other errors in the Sciences, many of them rightfully rejected, others still persisting in one form or another. For instance, it has already become obvious that another deeply ingrained idea, that of CoE as a general principle, also doesn't stand the scrutiny of the scientific method. Enemies of the scientific method are plenty. Opportunists seeing that it pays more to be conservative and be blind to the facts are abundant. Among these, little minds who don't even know what they're talking about but pretending to discuss science are also standing in the way. It's a mess. And the scales are overwhelmingly inclined towards the status quo. It's safer there. Therefore, someone must take measures and try to fight for reason to be reinstated in these matters. That's inevitable.

If correct, your ideas are revolutionary.  As you know, I have my doubts, but you are right in that I am not qualified to rigorously evaluate them.  At any rate, they are unfortunately being largely uheard.  This is a fringe forum which I am sure not too many serious scientists visit.  I think you would gain alot more traction if you got some validation from your peers.  I am sure it would also give you much satisfaction. 

I have no idea if you are even interested in this, but I venture to guess you might be, seeing as how diligently you defend your positions against all comers.  Surely there is somewhere you can be heard?  Perhaps the University at which you work has a venue for you to be published?  If you won over even a small section of the mainstream, that is that many more more people who may be motivated in making the SMOT work in a productive fashion and validate your ideas.  Your views on Einstein's theory would be heard as well.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Omnibus on November 12, 2007, 02:17:50 AM
@Ominibus,

Fine... you and your kind are solely responsible for destroying the positive energy that once was on this site,  and all others members who have come out to learn about over-unity for the first time and you cut them down until they have no desire to continue or experience, to learn and grow on the path themselves.

The road to success takes many different roads.  There isn't just one.  If everyone takes the same road ... then there will be no new discoveries for all the journeys will become the same.

Congratulations,  by squashing so many you have doomed yourself and everyone else.


You'd better read again what I told you. It contains the answer to this post as well.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: nightlife on November 12, 2007, 02:20:59 AM
Omnibus, "Are you going to surprise us as @xpenzif did?

 I am not here to surprise anyone, I am here to learn of new ways to solve our energy crises. I have found a few ways so far and I come back here every once in a while to see if there are any new ideas that I think could work.

 The only true cure we have at this time is by way of using magnets. We must stay away from using any alternative fuel because we need those things for our planets survival.

 Magnets are the only thing we should even consider using as a energy source.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Omnibus on November 12, 2007, 02:27:47 AM
In the end ideas and concepts will stand or fall on their own merit. Lets address them directly not by attacking personally that individual that proposes them. What do we accomplish by insults and namecalling and implying that a person is incompentent or without merit.
We are all ignorant of different things.
Change is hard!

This is very idealistic and the world would've been a much better place if indeed ideas and concepts will stand or fall on their own merit. This is never so. There has always been a fierce battle between ideas in Science and, unfortunately, many of the ridiculously wrong ideas such as the "theory" of relativity have taken over because those forces supporting it were waging a more efficient, ugly, better financed, meaner battle to install that "theory" while the forces who saw its flaws have been meek and naive as you are, waiting for this stupidity to collapse on its own. It will never happen without fighting it. The "theory" of relativity is an example of one of the most incorrect ideas Science has accepted in its realm of doctrines and still there are quarters in which it persists, let alone that taxpayers are paying millions upon millions for stupid experiments to verify it, something that will never happen. There have been other errors in the Sciences, many of them rightfully rejected, others still persisting in one form or another. For instance, it has already become obvious that another deeply ingrained idea, that of CoE as a general principle, also doesn't stand the scrutiny of the scientific method. Enemies of the scientific method are plenty. Opportunists seeing that it pays more to be conservative and be blind to the facts are abundant. Among these, little minds who don't even know what they're talking about but pretending to discuss science are also standing in the way. It's a mess. And the scales are overwhelmingly inclined towards the status quo. It's safer there. Therefore, someone must take measures and try to fight for reason to be reinstated in these matters. That's inevitable.

If correct, your ideas are revolutionary.  As you know, I have my doubts, but you are right in that I am not qualified to rigorously evaluate them.  At any rate, they are unfortunately being largely uheard.  This is a fringe forum which I am sure not too many serious scientists visit.  I think you would gain alot more traction if you got some validation from your peers.  I am sure it would also give you much satisfaction. 

I have no idea if you are even interested in this, but I venture to guess you might be, seeing as how diligently you defend your positions against all comers.  Surely there is somewhere you can be heard?  Perhaps the University at which you work has a venue for you to be published?  If you won over even a small section of the mainstream, that is that many more more people who may be motivated in making the SMOT work in a productive fashion and validate your ideas.  Your views on Einstein's theory would be heard as well.
I'm in the process of doing this. Just a remark--don't consider that because it's a fringe forum it's no good. Any forum is good where there are advances. Believe me, more interesting science is done in forums like this than in most of the so-called research universities. Look at the publications in the peer-reviewed journals. They overwhelmingly are doing nothing else but polluting the environment with nonsense printed on paper which has come as a result of destroying the forests of the world. Environmentalists, I think, should take a serious look at that. History repeats itself--didn't I tell you that the most important discoveries in Physics were made by non-physicists. Same now--the most important developments occur outside of the academia in what you call fringe forums and groups.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Omnibus on November 12, 2007, 02:30:38 AM
Omnibus, "Are you going to surprise us as @xpenzif did?

 I am not here to surprise anyone, I am here to learn of new ways to solve our energy crises. I have found a few ways so far and I come back here every once in a while to see if there are any new ideas that I think could work.

 The only true cure we have at this time is by way of using magnets. We must stay away from using any alternative fuel because we need those things for our planets survival.

 Magnets are the only thing we should even consider using as a energy source.
That's good that you think so but what exactly are you basing your firm conviction on? Why are you hiding it? Show it to us. Maybe you've done something we've never seen before. See what happened with @xpenzif, a guy no one paid too much attention to before he came up with his motor.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: billmehess on November 12, 2007, 02:51:44 AM
Believe it or not this post was not all about Omnibus. He is a bit of a hard case but I guess that is his charm and cross to bare.
This was a general post for all members if one choses not to participate and others do then it has great value and hopefully some good will come from it. The advancement of knowledge and the sharing of ideas is the core value of this forum and the views of any one person should and cannot be the governing criteria. Again we all have to defend our positions but it is how we defend those positions that determine there and our value.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: nightlife on November 12, 2007, 02:54:04 AM
Omnibus, xpenzif's idea is not one that I considered do to the lack of power it would create.

 I posted a design I had for a pulse motor but I later found that some have already been built. I then deleted my what I posted hoping that no one was able to fill in the blanks I left untold. I did that because it is obvious that we have people out there keeping these inventions from hitting the market for everyday people to use.

 Since then, I have looked to see what others have been working on and found that the only ones we hear about are those that have failed and or can not produce enough power for us to even consider using.

 I have found a few that have no choice but to work if they were only put together and timed properly. I don't want to mention them or what is needed to change them because I don't want them kept from being produced. I am trying to sell all the property's I own so that I can fund the production of enough to get the ball rolling.

 All I will say is that I am glad that we do have away to change things for the better for all mankind and not just a hand full like our governments makes it better for.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Omnibus on November 12, 2007, 02:59:26 AM
Omnibus, xpenzif's idea is not one that I considered do to the lack of power it would create.

 I posted a design I had for a pulse motor but I later found that some have already been built. I then deleted my what I posted hoping that no one was able to fill in the blanks I left untold. I did that because it is obvious that we have people out there keeping these inventions from hitting the market for everyday people to use.

 Since then, I have looked to see what others have been working on and found that the only ones we hear about are those that have failed and or can not produce enough power for us to even consider using.

 I have found a few that have no choice but to work if they were only put together and timed properly. I don't want to mention them or what is needed to change them because I don't want them kept from being produced. I am trying to sell all the property's I own so that I can fund the production of enough to get the ball rolling.

 All I will say is that I am glad that we do have away to change things for the better for all mankind and not just a hand full like our governments makes it better for.
Well, good luck to you. So far I have only heard promises in that practical aspect you mention. As for me all that matters is the scientific aspect of this problem (once Science is good practice will inevitably follow) and so far I haven't seen anything better in this respect than @xpenzif's.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: nightlife on November 12, 2007, 03:11:10 AM
 Something else is the fact that I cant be the only to one figure out the things I have. It was to simple to figure out. The problem I have found are that everyone of the motors I have seen fail because the inventor cant get passed the gates. It is to simple to get through them but yet no one seems to have one. Is this some kind of joke? Is the average that naive?

 I am a POS 9th grade drop out and there is no way that I can be the only one to figure out how to get passed the gates. I will admit I am 41 years old with 25 years in the auto repair business but there are top scientist that say it is impossible. Why? It must be because they are made not to disclose their findings. I don't really know why but I do not want to take the chance of anyone keeping what I have learned from the people who need it most.
 Every time I figure one out, I right it down and give it to a different person to put up incase something happens to me. If something should happen to me, they have orders to open the envelopes and do as instructed in them.

 Be assured that some day soon, the truth will come out and a new energy source will be provided at a very inexpensive cost for all.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: linda933 on November 12, 2007, 03:34:16 AM
"I have personally came across a few that can work if they just changed and or added a couple things. You all would not believe how close a couple of these members are to achieving over unity using just permanent magnets. I have figured out a way to achieve over unity using electronic magnets and now thanks to a few others here, I now can do it using permanent magnets."  ~ Nightlife


It is this kind of statement, which announces that something totally unprecedented and heretofore deemed impossible by the laws of science has been "figured out" (implying an actual proof, at least to self) yet offers no evidence, no explanation of the elusive key, no statement of what has been actually achieved and no details for potential replication...these are the very type of statements that engender the most vicious attacks.

When offering that you have achieved something amazing and totally unprecedented, it might be wise to offer it far more humbly as a "I think maybe...but have not yet proven it" or offer it with some good evidence and a clear statement of what you have actually achieved if it goes beyond just thinking in circles until you have convinced yourself it will work.

Why do people feel like attacking this sort of announcement?  Simple:  It's incredibly arrogant to make such claims in the face of the thousands of failed attempts over hundreds of years of effort.  Not only is it arrogant, it is getting to be very old around here.  So many claims!  Just read half the thread titles..."Successful this...Proof Positive of that...The Answer to this...The Solution to that"...yet, in reading and reviewing the actual materials, the promises of the titles never materialize.

I think the reason why so many good folks find themselves attacking the posts of others is the sheer arrogance that is displayed and the totally unsupported claims of astonishing achievements.  In the end, as far as I can tell after reading nearly everything here, no one has really done what they claim so arrogantly to have done. 

When so much honest effort over so many centuries by so many good people has brought forth so little in terms of actual useful results, it is indeed an insult to any thinking reader for someone to make claims to achieving what has previously been so elusive when the claimant offers nothing but the claim itself as evidence! 

I find the hundreds of false, premature and inaccurate claims made regarding overunity and free energy to be a huge and continuing insult to critical-thinking people and all genuine researchers. 

That's my opinion about why there is so much ridiculing and hostility made against many claimants and I feel it is totally justified when the claim is made arrogantly and without evidence or supporting material or even a clear statement of exactly what is being claimed.  It just irks the crap out of anyone with a smidgen of scientific methodology and critical thinking ability to hear such casual yet outlandish claims so often!

So...if you don't want to get your head torn off by critical skeptics, do your homework...most of scientific research involves showing exactly how the theoretical claim stands up under the most ferocious attacks (attacks meaning attempts to find fault with the claimant's science, not their personality). 

It is always the same numbskulls who make these casual and unsupported claims that always think they are being personally attacked when the first critical questions are asked!  If you look at the threads, the best of the hated debunkers always attack using straightforward and (to the claimant) extremely awkward, pointed questions.  That is 100% the object and method of scientific research!

It is invariably the casual arrogant claimant who then, rather than answering the hard question that will reveal his error, will begin a personal attack against the skeptic.  It happens time and time again.  Read through the posts where the toughest skeptics beam in with straight questions...you'll see it every time. 

The attitude here is that it is sacreligious to question claims and those who make them.  As long as that attitude exists, and the toughest skeptics are personally attacked or even banned for pounding the hard questions, this forum will not be doing science but rather will remain a private club for mutual delusion and egocentric circulation of false claims. 

Attacks using hard scientific method made against casual yet incredible and unsupported claims MUST be distinguished from personal attacks, as they are essential to the advancement of reality in science and engineering.  If you check it out, you'll find that the personal attacks always begin when the casual claimant, who is ego-involved with his delusion, refuses to accept the idea of applying simple scientific method and good quality testing and fights back by calling the skeptical enquirer an "oil-man" or a "worthless armchair detractor" or an "idiot" or something along those lines. 

Always, the person questioning the bad or absent science and/or inadequate methodology is attacked, excluded, insulted and, in the case of the best skeptics, banned as a "detractor".

Linda
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: billmehess on November 12, 2007, 03:46:39 AM
Hi Humbugger
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Omnibus on November 12, 2007, 04:03:26 AM
Linda, I agree with almost everything you say except for the tendency to assume that incompetent people are skeptics. This is clearly seen when questions are raised regarding the only experiment so far definitively proving violation of CoE. You seem to miss this important point. Please make a distinction--an incompetent person is just incompetent and nothing else. To criticize without understanding even the fundamentals isn't called application of the scientific method. Questions posed by such people need not be answered and that doesn't mean that the proponent isn't true to Science. Quite the contrary. In saying this I would again say that I'm also annoyed by the unbridled tendency to make earthshaking announcements without any real facts to sustain them. The level of tolerance is too high in this respect. The coin, however, has two sides--the level of tolerance towards people cluttering the threads with sheer gibberish disguised as "skepticism" is even higher.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Mr.Entropy on November 12, 2007, 04:08:31 AM
Honestly, I don't know what y'all are on about.  Except for one or two bad apples, I find this forum to be remarkably civil.  Really.  It's impressive that otherwise-ordinary people with such conficting innate belief systems can converse anonymously on-line without everything going to hell.  Compare this forum to some usenet group where, say, liberals mix with neo-conservatives.

Cheers,

Mr. Entropy

[Edit: oh, I guess maybe Stefan deserves some credit here :-)]
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: linda933 on November 12, 2007, 04:16:39 AM
Hi Humbugger


Already, the personal attacking begins!  You and Ashtweth...buddies or something?

Having read most of Humbugger's posts, I take it as a compliment to be compared and/or confused with such a person, an excellent example of a skeptic who was well-grounded in science and who was known to take the most vicious of insults and peronal attacks and still come back asking the same basic science questions that made the false-claimers writhe in agony.

In fact, I do recall a certain Mr. Mehess resorting to all kinds of rude personal insults such as "Kiss My Ass" and "Take some medication" when Humbugger got on his case for arrogantly making false overunity claims which...you guessed it...turned out to fall completely to pieces under even light scrutiny using basic scientific methods. 

Thank you Bill, for the complimentary comparison and for providing a perfect example of the hipocracy problem.  Your suggestions now, in light of your ugly personal attacks against Humbugger when he relentlessly questioned your lack of science and outrageous claims, proves my point perfectly!  Glad to hear you have seen the error of your ways!

Linda (not Humbugger, but thank you)
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: nightlife on November 12, 2007, 04:20:50 AM
linda933, thank you for that response.

 Just because you, I and or anyone hasn't seen what someone might have and or know, doesn't give you, I or anyone else the right to ridicule, disrespect, assume or call them names. We should all respectfully agree to disagree when we feel that the other is wrong or we feel they are testing our intelligence. All we can do is ask for them to provide proof and if they decline, we should just ignore them to keep from creating hard feelings and disrespectful arguments. If you, I and everyone else continue to ignore them, they may just show proof and or stop talking about it.

 There are ways to talk to each other with out hurting the others feelings. My post was used as an example to promote the response you posted.

 Thank you again and I hope I helped everyone who reads this to keep from letting their anger and frustration show in replies to others dreams, comments and or replies.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: linda933 on November 12, 2007, 04:25:13 AM
Linda, I agree with almost everything you say except for the tendency to assume that incompetent people are skeptics. This is clearly seen when questions are raised regarding the only experiment so far definitively proving violation of CoE. You seem to miss this important point. Please make a distinction--an incompetent person is just incompetent and nothing else. To criticize without understanding even the fundamentals isn't called application of the scientific method. Questions posed by such people need not be answered and that doesn't mean that the proponent isn't true to Science. Quite the contrary. In saying this I would again say that I'm also annoyed by the unbridled tendency to make earthshaking announcements without any real facts to sustain them. The level of tolerance is too high in this respect. The coin, however, has two sides--the level of tolerance towards people cluttering the threads with sheer gibberish disguised as "skepticism" is even higher.

I am more or less in agreement, but I guess I just find it irritating as hell when people make claims with no evidence or science to support them and then refuse to put forth such when asked but, instead, launch into a tirade of personal insults.  As if extraordinary claims were to be simply believed at once by all and the mere asking for evidence and theoretical/physical/mathematical proof were some kind of personal insult.

I find the "clutter level" to contain about 99% pseudo-scientific false claims of superior knowledge and mumbo jumb and about 1% skepticism, whether gibberish skepticism or good scientific argument.  Until there is a reasonable balance between blind belief in every wild claim and any kind of skepticism, I'm a lot more concerned about the 99.

Linda
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: linda933 on November 12, 2007, 04:35:00 AM
linda933, thank you for that response.

 Just because you, I and or anyone hasn't seen what someone might have and or know, doesn't give you, I or anyone else the right to ridicule, disrespect, assume or call them names. We should all respectfully agree to disagree when we feel that the other is wrong or we feel they are testing our intelligence. All we can do is ask for them to provide proof and if they decline, we should just ignore them to keep from creating hard feelings and disrespectful arguments. If you, I and everyone else continue to ignore them, they may just show proof and or stop talking about it.

 There are ways to talk to each other with out hurting the others feelings. My post was used as an example to promote the response you posted.

 Thank you again and I hope I helped everyone who reads this to keep from letting their anger and frustration show in replies to others dreams, comments and or replies.

So...your claim to have figured out the secret of eternally-self-running PM motors was just a test, huh?  Ohhhhhh....Kayyyyy!  Not sure I believe you but I'll let it slide...LOL

Anyhow...thank you for thanking me...I hope I can establish some kind of reputation of my very own here instead of just being called Humbugger every time I make a good post!  While it's a compliment in my mind, it's usually intended as an insult, I think, and an attempt to have me banned. 

Why, I do not know, but it is certainly very rude to make such accusations, thus stripping me of any chance to establish myself as a unique individual here!  Cool though how I am able to bring out the name-callers and hypocrites (healed, I hope) so easily!  Shame on you Bill!  LOL

Linda
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: nightlife on November 12, 2007, 04:48:19 AM
linda933, I am sorry to have used your response as an example but you were the first to respond. I do have projects that I am working on but not having the right equipment makes it tough to finish them. I wouldn't have said what I did except I thought it was a good way to get my point across. I don't post much but I read a lot and I try to stay up with things as much as possible.

 I do hope I didn't offend you and if I did, I do hope you accept my apology.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: billmehess on November 12, 2007, 04:54:09 AM
What a shame, I never attacked anyone personally in this post it was nothing more than an attempt to address what I feel alot of people here would like to see, That is just simply to treat others in a more civil fashion. Sence the post has generated basicly no responce in favor of this I take it business will continue as usual.
I won't be posting here any longer. Nor bother to respond on any personal attacks on me.
I wish you all the best.
BIll
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: nightlife on November 12, 2007, 04:59:42 AM
 One thing that is hard to tell chatting online is if the other person is kidding or being serious. I have noticed that to be a problem at times and that is another reason we should always give each other the benefit of the doubt.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: linda933 on November 12, 2007, 05:20:57 AM
linda933, I am sorry to have used your response as an example but you were the first to respond. I do have projects that I am working on but not having the right equipment makes it tough to finish them. I wouldn't have said what I did except I thought it was a good way to get my point across. I don't post much but I read a lot and I try to stay up with things as much as possible.

 I do hope I didn't offend you and if I did, I do hope you accept my apology.

No no no,,,the only offense was by Mr. Mehess, the originator of this thread, who accuses me of being a previously-banned skeptical user.  I assume he does that with vicious intent, such as to attempt to have me banned, as a certain Mr. Ashtweth did recently.

My only question to you (is your name also Bill?  Is that the confusion?) is whether you are serious about your claim of having "figured out" the secret of free energy PM self-running motors.  Your posts seem to say you are definitely claiming this, keeping all details a secret and amassing your fortune in cash in order to support a production design and build.  Then on the other hand you sort of say you were using the claim as an example to incite and elicit a response like mine.  So, no...I'm not at all offended, just confused a bit.  And curious.

If you are making claim to having figured it out and are able to see the secret flaw in many others' work that keep them from success, you probably shouldn't tease us here on this open source forum by saying so and then clamming up.  Not that I care one way or the other, but it's a good way to get attacked by both skeptics and true believers!  Of course, the skeptics will only be able to dismiss you as another deluded or lying idiot since you throw them no meat to sourly regurgitate.  The open-source true believer replicators will tear you to bits for being a selfish bought-off money-grubbing bastard!

It's all pretty funny, in my opinion.  The only folks who seem to get bent out of shape are those who are committed fully to blind experimentation on dead ends.  Boy do they get upset when a skeptic bursts their bubble!   Sometimes it seems like there is an unwritten rule here that no one is to be respected unless they have wasted thousands of dollars and all of their free time for years chasing other people's poorly-described delusions or, at least, ancient charming unsolved mysteries.  

Anyone who comes along and says "Oh, it's easy to see that can't work and here is why", be they right or wrong, is despised as if they were a viper in a room full of innocent babies.  Yet anyone who comes along and says "I have the secret and I'm going to toss out vague hints for replicators" (ala SM and 10,000 others) gains an immediate guru status and a faithful eager following!  What a world we live in!  

It all goes to show that people want a magic panacea and are even willing to throw out all of the well-known science in exchange for a hopeful belief that they will end up getting something for nothing.  I think we'd all be much better off if we put the same effort into improving efficiency, reducing energy needs and perfecting the genuine, known-to-work green energy sources we already understand.  

But maybe you or someone else will prove me wrong on that one day soon.  I'm hoping and waiting!

Linda
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: shruggedatlas on November 12, 2007, 06:00:40 AM
I think Linda expressed it most eloquently a few posts back, more so than I ever could have.  I have one suggestion to those eagerly proclaiming new discoveries or conspiracy theories - read Richard Feynman, my great hero and the person who got me reading about physics and science in general.  I particularly found his writings about the Challenger disaster both informative and entertaining.  He was one of the investigators and the person primarily responsible for figuring out that it was the O-rings that were the problem.  The book is called What Do You Care What Other People Think?: Further Adventures of a Curious Character, and here is a link:

http://www.amazon.com/What-Care-Other-People-Think/dp/0393320928/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194842326&sr=8-2 (http://www.amazon.com/What-Care-Other-People-Think/dp/0393320928/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194842326&sr=8-2)

The thing I really got out of him is the methodical way in which he reasons and arrives at an answer.  He has no tolerance for fancy unsubstantiated claims.  It was really mind opening to me and gave me a respect for science (not my profession) that I do not see in other fields.  As Carl Sagan said:

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."

So, let's not treat science like politics or religion, eh?
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: linda933 on November 12, 2007, 06:01:50 AM
What a shame, I never attacked anyone personally in this post it was nothing more than an attempt to address what I feel alot of people here would like to see, That is just simply to treat others in a more civil fashion. Sence the post has generated basicly no responce in favor of this I take it business will continue as usual.
I won't be posting here any longer. Nor bother to respond on any personal attacks on me.
I wish you all the best.
BIll

Gee Whiz, Bill...nobody is attacking you!  Everyone agrees!  The point is simple:  Make the clear distinction between personal attacks and scientific query.  Don't respond to scientific query with personal attacks!  Do respond to personal attacks with scientific query!

Are you really so thin-skinned and delicate that you feel you must leave here and never post again because people like to argue and you perceive argument as a personal attack?  You can't do good science without being able to stand some good hard skeptical questions.  

I thought you were attacking me by saying I was Humbugger.  What was the purpose of that if not to insult, denigrate, attempt to have me banned...whatever.  Just the sort of thing you say you are against!  It's not "decent" to make accusations of a personal nature such as that, you see my point?

My God, man, don't be such a baby!  People will argue and people will insult each other sometimes. Especially in a "research forum" where 90% of the participants appear to either reject or know better than all of the scientific community yet they cannot make a proper electrical measurement or basic calculation without enormous errors or discuss matters of energy without deep confusion between basic terms and essential relationships!  

When these same people make pompous, arrogant, unfounded and totally false claims, they DEMAND CORRECTION from anyone who can see the error!  My point is that, no matter how gently this pointing out of the errors may be, those who are ego-attached to their incorrect claims, epecially if they have a following of encouragers/replicators, will almost always resort to vicious personal attacks against the messenger, especially when he or she is dead right and blows their whole theory to shreds!  Science!

If your desire is to eliminate that sort of personal attack (usually against skeptics), then my suggestion is to try to encourage people to do the critical thinking and the basic science well before they invest huge amounts of time, effort and money and before they gain a large following of replicators!  

The other suggestion is simply that too many who are involved (such as you, apparently) are so thin-skinned and hyper-sensitive to any criticism, questioning or argument that they see anything short of glowing praise and eager total belief as a personal insult!  Get over it!  If you have something that is worthwhile and valid to share, it will be known as such in the end, especially if it meets with skepticism and endures!  

Don't run away thinking you've been insulted here, Bill!  You started a good thread and a good discussion has ensued.  All I and the others are doing is trying to communicate why we think the insults happen so often and pointing out examples.  You should be proud to have stimulated and contributed to this discussion.  Take your lumps, man!  We all screw up at times.  We all have to laugh at ourselves every now and then and remember that none of us is totally innocent here!

Linda
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: linda933 on November 12, 2007, 06:26:11 AM
Quote
As Carl Sagan said:

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."

So, let's not treat science like politics or religion, eh? 

That is absolutely the best quotation on the entire forum, ever.  Thank you ShruggedAtlas and Carl Sagan.  I am also a fan of Feynman's work and writings. 

I am certain that most of the people here that get into personal attacks simply do not understand that basic idea of science so well stated by Sagan.  That's why science has driven technology so far so fast!  Bad ideas that prove untrue and unworkable are dropped!  Arguments that stay on track between learned people in science end in an improved understanding; not more fog and a spewing of bitter insults or banning of participants! 

There is no encouragement for beating dead horses into eternity nor for random experimentation based purely on hope and altruism.  Scientific research is all about trying every known way to knock down proposed theories and build only on solid ground.  That's why it works!  Where this forum's content and paths differ from scientific research is where the personal insults arise.

Linda
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: hansvonlieven on November 12, 2007, 06:29:52 AM
It's not about agreeing with someone. It's about impudence in pushing wrong ideas as truth which must not be allowed. Science is not a democracy. Not everything goes in Science. It is intrinsically intolerant and whoever abuses it must bear the consequences.


Ave Omnibus ignorami te salutamus.

(Translation:  "Hail Omnibus, we the ignorant salute you" ) with apologies to Roman gladiators.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: linda933 on November 12, 2007, 06:47:07 AM
You see?  Hans knows the proper way to do insults.  Polite overstated sarcasm, in Latin.  See how much more "decent" that sounds compared to Omnibus' frequent (incessant?) use of pointed, hurtful terms such as idiot, incompetent, ignorant, etc. for those who ask him to explain the absolute proof that SMOT violates CoE and produces free energy? 

Night, All...

and Hans...I'll see you in my dreams, you handsome devil you!

Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Omnibus on November 12, 2007, 07:19:12 AM
You see?  Hans knows the proper way to do insults.  Polite overstated sarcasm, in Latin.  See how much more "decent" that sounds compared to Omnibus' frequent (incessant?) use of pointed, hurtful terms such as idiot, incompetent, ignorant, etc. for those who ask him to explain the absolute proof that SMOT violates CoE and produces free energy? 

Night, All...

and Hans...I'll see you in my dreams, you handsome devil you!


Linda, you obviously like to be insulted with polite arrogance. This person is not so consistent as you present him, though. Go back and check is 'idiot' really lacking from his vocabulary or even other words I don't even want to repeat here. Go check. You gullible supporter of fellow "skeptics", you. "Skeptics" that are no skeptics at all but are mere negligible incompetents who bump into people doing serious business like blind puppies.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Omnibus on November 12, 2007, 07:21:41 AM
These incompetent Hanses of the world are not less harmful than the enthusiasts you so much dislike, Linda. Double standards, huh?
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Omnibus on November 12, 2007, 07:28:21 AM
I think Linda expressed it most eloquently a few posts back, more so than I ever could have.  I have one suggestion to those eagerly proclaiming new discoveries or conspiracy theories - read Richard Feynman, my great hero and the person who got me reading about physics and science in general.  I particularly found his writings about the Challenger disaster both informative and entertaining.  He was one of the investigators and the person primarily responsible for figuring out that it was the O-rings that were the problem.  The book is called What Do You Care What Other People Think?: Further Adventures of a Curious Character, and here is a link:

http://www.amazon.com/What-Care-Other-People-Think/dp/0393320928/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194842326&sr=8-2 (http://www.amazon.com/What-Care-Other-People-Think/dp/0393320928/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194842326&sr=8-2)

The thing I really got out of him is the methodical way in which he reasons and arrives at an answer.  He has no tolerance for fancy unsubstantiated claims.  It was really mind opening to me and gave me a respect for science (not my profession) that I do not see in other fields.  As Carl Sagan said:

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."

So, let's not treat science like politics or religion, eh?

Read it again: "He has no tolerance for fancy unsubstantiated claims." This fellow is far from being my hero but I do agree on that with him. There should be no tolerance for incompetence and arrogant stupidity, even if it's expressed politely. Hanses of the world should be shown their place in no uncertain terms.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: nightlife on November 12, 2007, 07:36:11 AM
Linda, my name is Tom and my example was actually my feelings and something I am working on but I only posted that so people could see how others would respond to me saying what I have in my head. I could have been anyone as I am not some one you or anyone else here knows. I would have never posted that but I came across this thread and I felt it would be a way to give a good example of how some people really feel and how others would respond. Was it right? No one would ever know unless I was to show proof either way. My point was that we can not and should not get angry with others who post things as I did because it may hurt the poster feelings and or make them angry.
 We can not nor should we ever let our own frustration and anger cause emotional pain on others just because of something they have said regardless of how frustrating and angry it makes us feel.

 I am working with a city that is filled with crime and hatred and I am trying real hard to get people to start respecting other and to teach parents how to become better parents. I have found that more and more troubled teens are troubled because of their upbringing and I am on a mission to help provide parents with some knowledge to help them properly supervise and guide their children in the right direction to help keep them from becoming adults who commit crimes and have so much hate in their hearts.
 This thread was a good way to show how we as adults behave and how our behavior gets passed down to our children and how it intensifies over the generations.

 I have spent my a large part of my life as a criminal that most would never give a second thought about do to the crimes I have committed. I am older know and I have a family and I have looked back on my life and seen why I became who I was and what made me do those things I did. I don't want my children or anyone else?s children to ever have to go through the things I have and that is why I responded to this thread.

 I am far from a religious person but I do want us all to live as peaceful as we all possible can so we can come together as a team to find solutions for problems that affect us all such as our quest here to seek a better way of creating energy that will benefit us all and not just a group of greedy power hungry people as oil has created.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: hoptoad on November 12, 2007, 08:34:04 AM
It's not about agreeing with someone. It's about impudence in pushing wrong ideas as truth which must not be allowed. Science is not a democracy. Not everything goes in Science. It is intrinsically intolerant and whoever abuses it must bear the consequences.


Ave Omnibus ignorami te salutamus.

(Translation:  "Hail Omnibus, we the ignorant salute you" ) with apologies to Roman gladiators.

Hans von Lieven

This particular thread is about being "decent to each other". It is not a science thread per se, so the best thing the great Omnibus could do to preserve the main nature of the thread, is to leave it now. LOL!  Sorry, I just couldn't help that!  "Decent" and "Omnibus" in the same sentence! Now that's an oxymoron........ :D

KneeDeep KneeDeep
From the Toad who Hops
Title: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Earl on November 12, 2007, 12:03:12 PM
People have been trying to build unbreakable ciphers and perpetual motion machines since many centuries.

In the cipher community it is accepted that every "unbreakable cipher" will be ferociously attacked and that mathematicians will attempt to prove that it is weak or broken.  These ferocious attacks are all done on an intellectual level with no hard feelings. Anyone proposing a new cipher expects this; it is completely normal.  I can assure that this subject is sufficiently complex that when mathematicians talk about cipher algorithms and their resistance to cryptanalysis, you would hardly understand a single word.  The German Telecom had not even finished presenting their algorithm to the AES competition before it had been shown to be flawed.  No bad feelings, no name calling, no haha you are stupid idiots.

On the other hand, during a respectable gathering of scholars and researchers during an International Cold Fusion conference, I have seen scientists excitedly scream at each other because their theory was right and the fellow with the other theory didn't know what he was talking about.

"Mankind's entire knowledge is equal to zero plus delta, where delta approaches zero."
Earl

Once each realizes how utterly and hopelessly stupid one is, one can only be humble.

There is a wise saying:

"There is one and only one word that separates a babbling, insane idiot from a genius."

That one word is success.

So on the fringes of intuition, imagination, and fantasy (do *NOT* use the word science),  you are automatically a babbling, insane idiot, exactly like the Wright brothers in 1902.  Accept this, do not let it bother you.  Accept that you may remain so until you die.  It is up to you with your abstract intelligence (IQ) to cross the line by having provable, scientifically-valid success.  Theories (ideas on forums can not even be called theories), and forum posting can not be equated to success.  Building and measuring correctly while guided by abstract intellect is a necessary, but insufficient condition to achieve success.  If you are smart in some areas, but lacking knowledge in others, do not hesitate to collaborate with peers.  One thing is sure, ego does not help to achieve success.

My 2 cents.

Earl
address any replies to others, since I prefer to build rather than post.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: linda933 on November 12, 2007, 04:18:34 PM
@Tom (nightlife)

Glad to hear there is true redemption still possible in this mean old world.  You are one of the lucky ones to have second (third...fourth?) chances to do what's right in life.  Keep it up, man!

@Earl

Great attitude; good advice! 


Linda
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Omnibus on November 12, 2007, 05:00:36 PM
Linda, you're looking for hard facts, right? Here's one--Uncles Sam (US Patent Office, that is) has granted a number of patents on perpetuum mobile's. Now, the contradiction is this--either USA is protecting something pronounced by Science as nonsense or it isn't nonsense and Science has to start living with it. What do you think, how is this contradiction to be resolved? We were discussing this in another thread and @shruggedatlas came up with a lot of insight but the conclusion was that the resolution can come up only through the court system--a third party has to initiate motions in these courts to straighten up this ridiculous state of affairs. Does this seem OK to you?
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: nightlife on November 12, 2007, 05:35:46 PM
 I honestly feel that our governments are hiding a lot of inventions and or theory?s from us to keep things the way they are. I cant prove this until I finish building one of my motors to have proof it can be done. If I succeed, then I will have to question our governments involvement in keeping things from us because there is no way that I could be the only one to figure something out "provided I have proof that it does work" then all our well educated scientist and or other well educated people.

 One example would be the motor built with using wood screws. There is no way that I beleive that others haven't figured out how to build one in the past before this person has considering all the top well educated scientist that have tried. I just have a hard time believing that motors have not already been built and or at least the concept put in theory and backed with mathematical conclusion.

 I guess I should have stayed in school so I would know how to properly come up with a mathematical theory for my own theory's. The other problem I have is not trusting anyone because of my above thoughts. I may just be an idiot but I am having a hard time proving myself wrong. Probably because I may be an idiot and not even know that. I do hope that makes sense. LOL

 If it doesn?t make sense, go ahead and beat me up,  just please be gentle. LOL
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Omnibus on November 12, 2007, 06:30:30 PM
@nightlife,

It?s quite commendable that you were able to start a new life. Now it?s time to start learning a few things. First thing is to restrain from jumping the gun saying things like:

?I honestly feel that our governments are hiding a lot of inventions and or theory?s from us to keep things the way they are. I cant prove this until I finish building one of my motors to have proof it can be done. I succeed, then I will question our governments involvement in keeping things from us because there is no way that I could be the only one to figure something out "provided I have proof that it does work" then all our well educated scientist and or other well educated people.?

even if you honestly feel that way because you actually have no way at this point to prove what you?re saying and because of that you may look like a fool. Next, you should realize that innovations, new theories don?t pop up just like that. They build on earlier discoveries, theories, findings of sage men and women who have done work prior to yours. In order to understand what?s really there in this respect you must learn to learn, systematically at that. Without systematic knowledge you won?t even know exactly what you?re rejecting and what new you?re proposing. Thus, if lacking systematic education, it may only seem to you, you may only have the feeling that ?all our well educated scientists? are wrong but they may not be. You will be in no position to tell. You won?t be able to defend the thing you consider your theory as being more than crappy thoughts on a Sunday morning.

That said, I must add also that the overwhelming number of the well educated scientists will never even consider working on a project such as the one @xpenzif has undertaken. Why? Because it?s dangerous for their careers to question the very fundamentals for what they are getting salaries. There are mortgages to be paid, kids to be put through college, vacations to be had, all kinds of bills to be paid etc., etc. One can?t jeopardize their job security, they think, for something so much shattering their little world. Remember, conservatism pays the most in academia in many much more convenient ways than questioning such fundamental doctrines as CoE. 99.9999% of the trained scientists will not touch claims for violation of CoE with a ten foot pole. Mostly because of dishonesty. There is one word which characterizes contemporary Science?dishonesty. Honesty is a very rare commodity these days in academia. There are honest people there but their number is negligibly small. Turns out dishonesty pays the most?play the game properly and you?ll have a happy little life. These so-called trained scientists everywhere in academia are not to be trusted one bit when it comes to matters of importance of the magnitude we?re discussing here, not because they lack training but because they are dishonest. Therefore, don?t assume that it had occurred to top well educated scientists to have given even a minute?s thought on a machine @xpenzif is showing us here.

However, I do agree that we have absolutely no evidence that such machines haven?t existed in the past. On the contrary, more and more evidence is coming about, indicating that they in fact may have but have been deliberately neglected (putting it mildly, rather than saying ?suppressed?). The great heroes of Science have appeared not because somehow they discovered something which automatically brought them fame. Nothing farther from the truth. The great heroes of Science we know of are in the textbooks because what they did was to the liking of the powers that be who promoted them. No matter how bright or how stupid, incorrect or ridiculous that thing may be. Power (linked to money, of course) in the world determines what is true and what is not. Never mind all the talk of scientific method. This is for the consolation of the na?ve. Of course, the powers that be cannot allow themselves to promote always dummy things. England has to prevail over France, therefore, it cannot afford to entertain illusions in the practical matters of war, for instance. This is why the Royal Society (the local Academy of Sciences) appeared, to filter up to a point the nonsense that may weaken the country. However, the county may be weakened even more by allowing some inconvenient truths to prevail. Therefore, that society takes proper care of that too. That?s in a few words the scheme we are all victims of. It is only said when you?re taught in colleges that Science is about search for the truth. They only say it but they don?t really mean it. In addition, most of the instructors there are so overwhelmed with other stuff that search for the truth doesn?t even come up in their to do lists for the day, the year or even their entire career. This is enough, keeping with the topic of this thread, to treat these people with disrespect. One of the things these people really deserve is not to be polite with them because they only pretend to be scientists, violating the main tenet of what they have undertaken to do.

Now, back to you?if you have something you think is interesting just show it, otherwise it?ll be prudent not to express opinions you cannot back up with facts.
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: laserman on November 12, 2007, 11:12:10 PM
I hereby nominate myself to coordinate the gathering of all individuals on this forum, wisk you away to a deserted facility fully stocked with every tool necessary for R&D.  We would hold hands on the hilltop as in the old coke commercials and laugh at the old times as in..."remember when we used to burn dead dinosaurs to drive our cars and heat our homes?"  Our success is doomed by our own pride as individuals living in our own ivory towers instead of collaborating a new ideas.  :-[
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: nightlife on November 13, 2007, 04:30:14 AM
Omnibus, thank you for being so gentle. LOL

 Let me at least give this back for you being so gentle. 3 to 1, remember that when you try to get through a gate but don't think you will do it by pushing and or pulling it through the gate, you will lose what you seek to gain. It's all about the manipulation and timing. It will take the power of three to properly manipulate the gate of 1 to still be able to achieve over unity. 11/2 to manipulate and 11/2 for over unity. The manipulating magnets must be kind of horseshoe shaped with the north and south on the same side and the stationeries ones must be rectangular with poles on opposite sides. They must also be staggered as far as one placed with the north out and the next placed with the south out. It must have 6 stationary and 8 manipulating.

 Draw a 6 point star and then make three dots in between each of the stars points, it should look kind of like a dysfunctional clock. Then start from the top of the star and count start counting and circling each spot each time you get to three using the stars points as a mark as well. I would post a picture but I am not sure how to do that. You should end up with up with eight circles having only 2 of them on the stars points. One at the 12 O'Clock and the other at 6 O'Clock. The stars points should be at the same position as the 2 4 6 8 10 and 12.are on a clock. You should also have three marks in between each of those point evenly placed apart from each other. The manipulating magnet must be switched at the precise time to switch it from a pull to a push. You must remember that the manipulating magnet must be pivoted and not kept flat. This should be done using a guide on the wheel kind of like ZFF tried to use but make sure you use a more gradual approach then he did. Start the grade at the end of the push as the pull takes over and stop it at the end of the pull just before the push starts. It should never be level and it should look like a long stretched out never ending w. Also try to keep the transmission as short as possable unlike the one ZFF tried to use. His design was close but he was missing some key elements I have told you all about.
 I did try to help him but he didn't want the help and he would rather play with making fuel out of water. He is doing great with it but it still uses something we all need to have to survive, Food and water and air our main needs for our own survival and the only thing I can think of to use is magnets and that is why I have chose to design ways to use them for creating a power source.

 There you go, you now should have a design for a over unity permanent magnet motor. I do have others but I thought I would share this one with you all.

 My name is Thomas Brown and I live in Battle Creek, Michigan. If anyone would like to talk to me, you can email me at browns49015@yahoo.com
Title: Re: Being Decent To Each Other
Post by: Pirate88179 on November 16, 2007, 09:29:46 AM
Just my two cents on this topic.  I always try to conduct myself on this, and any other forum, as if everyone were gathered in my living room.  If I had a gathering here and someone offered an idea that had no chance of working, (my opinion) I would tell them what I thought of the idea, and why.  I would not call them names, or make rude remarks about their mother, etc.  Of course, this gets a bit harder when someone does not like that you didn't agree with their idea and says you are stupid, or not educated enough to understand it...blah blah blah.  I am about learning and sharing information.  Once the name calling and personal attacks begin, the exchange of information stops.  And, I think this is sad.  Anyway, thanks for listening/reading.

Bill