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Author Topic: Being Decent To Each Other  (Read 24508 times)

Offline shruggedatlas

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Re: Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2007, 06:00:40 AM »
I think Linda expressed it most eloquently a few posts back, more so than I ever could have.  I have one suggestion to those eagerly proclaiming new discoveries or conspiracy theories - read Richard Feynman, my great hero and the person who got me reading about physics and science in general.  I particularly found his writings about the Challenger disaster both informative and entertaining.  He was one of the investigators and the person primarily responsible for figuring out that it was the O-rings that were the problem.  The book is called What Do You Care What Other People Think?: Further Adventures of a Curious Character, and here is a link:

http://www.amazon.com/What-Care-Other-People-Think/dp/0393320928/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194842326&sr=8-2

The thing I really got out of him is the methodical way in which he reasons and arrives at an answer.  He has no tolerance for fancy unsubstantiated claims.  It was really mind opening to me and gave me a respect for science (not my profession) that I do not see in other fields.  As Carl Sagan said:

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."

So, let's not treat science like politics or religion, eh?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #45 on: November 12, 2007, 06:00:40 AM »

Offline linda933

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Re: Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #46 on: November 12, 2007, 06:01:50 AM »
What a shame, I never attacked anyone personally in this post it was nothing more than an attempt to address what I feel alot of people here would like to see, That is just simply to treat others in a more civil fashion. Sence the post has generated basicly no responce in favor of this I take it business will continue as usual.
I won't be posting here any longer. Nor bother to respond on any personal attacks on me.
I wish you all the best.
BIll

Gee Whiz, Bill...nobody is attacking you!  Everyone agrees!  The point is simple:  Make the clear distinction between personal attacks and scientific query.  Don't respond to scientific query with personal attacks!  Do respond to personal attacks with scientific query!

Are you really so thin-skinned and delicate that you feel you must leave here and never post again because people like to argue and you perceive argument as a personal attack?  You can't do good science without being able to stand some good hard skeptical questions.  

I thought you were attacking me by saying I was Humbugger.  What was the purpose of that if not to insult, denigrate, attempt to have me banned...whatever.  Just the sort of thing you say you are against!  It's not "decent" to make accusations of a personal nature such as that, you see my point?

My God, man, don't be such a baby!  People will argue and people will insult each other sometimes. Especially in a "research forum" where 90% of the participants appear to either reject or know better than all of the scientific community yet they cannot make a proper electrical measurement or basic calculation without enormous errors or discuss matters of energy without deep confusion between basic terms and essential relationships!  

When these same people make pompous, arrogant, unfounded and totally false claims, they DEMAND CORRECTION from anyone who can see the error!  My point is that, no matter how gently this pointing out of the errors may be, those who are ego-attached to their incorrect claims, epecially if they have a following of encouragers/replicators, will almost always resort to vicious personal attacks against the messenger, especially when he or she is dead right and blows their whole theory to shreds!  Science!

If your desire is to eliminate that sort of personal attack (usually against skeptics), then my suggestion is to try to encourage people to do the critical thinking and the basic science well before they invest huge amounts of time, effort and money and before they gain a large following of replicators!  

The other suggestion is simply that too many who are involved (such as you, apparently) are so thin-skinned and hyper-sensitive to any criticism, questioning or argument that they see anything short of glowing praise and eager total belief as a personal insult!  Get over it!  If you have something that is worthwhile and valid to share, it will be known as such in the end, especially if it meets with skepticism and endures!  

Don't run away thinking you've been insulted here, Bill!  You started a good thread and a good discussion has ensued.  All I and the others are doing is trying to communicate why we think the insults happen so often and pointing out examples.  You should be proud to have stimulated and contributed to this discussion.  Take your lumps, man!  We all screw up at times.  We all have to laugh at ourselves every now and then and remember that none of us is totally innocent here!

Linda

Offline linda933

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Re: Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2007, 06:26:11 AM »
Quote
As Carl Sagan said:

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."

So, let's not treat science like politics or religion, eh? 

That is absolutely the best quotation on the entire forum, ever.  Thank you ShruggedAtlas and Carl Sagan.  I am also a fan of Feynman's work and writings. 

I am certain that most of the people here that get into personal attacks simply do not understand that basic idea of science so well stated by Sagan.  That's why science has driven technology so far so fast!  Bad ideas that prove untrue and unworkable are dropped!  Arguments that stay on track between learned people in science end in an improved understanding; not more fog and a spewing of bitter insults or banning of participants! 

There is no encouragement for beating dead horses into eternity nor for random experimentation based purely on hope and altruism.  Scientific research is all about trying every known way to knock down proposed theories and build only on solid ground.  That's why it works!  Where this forum's content and paths differ from scientific research is where the personal insults arise.

Linda

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #47 on: November 12, 2007, 06:26:11 AM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #48 on: November 12, 2007, 06:29:52 AM »
It's not about agreeing with someone. It's about impudence in pushing wrong ideas as truth which must not be allowed. Science is not a democracy. Not everything goes in Science. It is intrinsically intolerant and whoever abuses it must bear the consequences.


Ave Omnibus ignorami te salutamus.

(Translation:  "Hail Omnibus, we the ignorant salute you" ) with apologies to Roman gladiators.

Hans von Lieven

Offline linda933

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Re: Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2007, 06:47:07 AM »
You see?  Hans knows the proper way to do insults.  Polite overstated sarcasm, in Latin.  See how much more "decent" that sounds compared to Omnibus' frequent (incessant?) use of pointed, hurtful terms such as idiot, incompetent, ignorant, etc. for those who ask him to explain the absolute proof that SMOT violates CoE and produces free energy? 

Night, All...

and Hans...I'll see you in my dreams, you handsome devil you!


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #49 on: November 12, 2007, 06:47:07 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #50 on: November 12, 2007, 07:19:12 AM »
You see?  Hans knows the proper way to do insults.  Polite overstated sarcasm, in Latin.  See how much more "decent" that sounds compared to Omnibus' frequent (incessant?) use of pointed, hurtful terms such as idiot, incompetent, ignorant, etc. for those who ask him to explain the absolute proof that SMOT violates CoE and produces free energy? 

Night, All...

and Hans...I'll see you in my dreams, you handsome devil you!


Linda, you obviously like to be insulted with polite arrogance. This person is not so consistent as you present him, though. Go back and check is 'idiot' really lacking from his vocabulary or even other words I don't even want to repeat here. Go check. You gullible supporter of fellow "skeptics", you. "Skeptics" that are no skeptics at all but are mere negligible incompetents who bump into people doing serious business like blind puppies.

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2007, 07:21:41 AM »
These incompetent Hanses of the world are not less harmful than the enthusiasts you so much dislike, Linda. Double standards, huh?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #51 on: November 12, 2007, 07:21:41 AM »
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Offline Omnibus

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Re: Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #52 on: November 12, 2007, 07:28:21 AM »
I think Linda expressed it most eloquently a few posts back, more so than I ever could have.  I have one suggestion to those eagerly proclaiming new discoveries or conspiracy theories - read Richard Feynman, my great hero and the person who got me reading about physics and science in general.  I particularly found his writings about the Challenger disaster both informative and entertaining.  He was one of the investigators and the person primarily responsible for figuring out that it was the O-rings that were the problem.  The book is called What Do You Care What Other People Think?: Further Adventures of a Curious Character, and here is a link:

http://www.amazon.com/What-Care-Other-People-Think/dp/0393320928/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1194842326&sr=8-2

The thing I really got out of him is the methodical way in which he reasons and arrives at an answer.  He has no tolerance for fancy unsubstantiated claims.  It was really mind opening to me and gave me a respect for science (not my profession) that I do not see in other fields.  As Carl Sagan said:

"In science it often happens that scientists say, 'You know that's a really good argument; my position is mistaken,' and then they actually change their minds and you never hear that old view from them again. They really do it. It doesn't happen as often as it should, because scientists are human and change is sometimes painful. But it happens every day. I cannot recall the last time something like that happened in politics or religion."

So, let's not treat science like politics or religion, eh?

Read it again: "He has no tolerance for fancy unsubstantiated claims." This fellow is far from being my hero but I do agree on that with him. There should be no tolerance for incompetence and arrogant stupidity, even if it's expressed politely. Hanses of the world should be shown their place in no uncertain terms.

Offline nightlife

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Re: Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2007, 07:36:11 AM »
Linda, my name is Tom and my example was actually my feelings and something I am working on but I only posted that so people could see how others would respond to me saying what I have in my head. I could have been anyone as I am not some one you or anyone else here knows. I would have never posted that but I came across this thread and I felt it would be a way to give a good example of how some people really feel and how others would respond. Was it right? No one would ever know unless I was to show proof either way. My point was that we can not and should not get angry with others who post things as I did because it may hurt the poster feelings and or make them angry.
 We can not nor should we ever let our own frustration and anger cause emotional pain on others just because of something they have said regardless of how frustrating and angry it makes us feel.

 I am working with a city that is filled with crime and hatred and I am trying real hard to get people to start respecting other and to teach parents how to become better parents. I have found that more and more troubled teens are troubled because of their upbringing and I am on a mission to help provide parents with some knowledge to help them properly supervise and guide their children in the right direction to help keep them from becoming adults who commit crimes and have so much hate in their hearts.
 This thread was a good way to show how we as adults behave and how our behavior gets passed down to our children and how it intensifies over the generations.

 I have spent my a large part of my life as a criminal that most would never give a second thought about do to the crimes I have committed. I am older know and I have a family and I have looked back on my life and seen why I became who I was and what made me do those things I did. I don't want my children or anyone else?s children to ever have to go through the things I have and that is why I responded to this thread.

 I am far from a religious person but I do want us all to live as peaceful as we all possible can so we can come together as a team to find solutions for problems that affect us all such as our quest here to seek a better way of creating energy that will benefit us all and not just a group of greedy power hungry people as oil has created.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #53 on: November 12, 2007, 07:36:11 AM »
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Offline hoptoad

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Re: Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #54 on: November 12, 2007, 08:34:04 AM »
It's not about agreeing with someone. It's about impudence in pushing wrong ideas as truth which must not be allowed. Science is not a democracy. Not everything goes in Science. It is intrinsically intolerant and whoever abuses it must bear the consequences.


Ave Omnibus ignorami te salutamus.

(Translation:  "Hail Omnibus, we the ignorant salute you" ) with apologies to Roman gladiators.

Hans von Lieven

This particular thread is about being "decent to each other". It is not a science thread per se, so the best thing the great Omnibus could do to preserve the main nature of the thread, is to leave it now. LOL!  Sorry, I just couldn't help that!  "Decent" and "Omnibus" in the same sentence! Now that's an oxymoron........ :D

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Offline Earl

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Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2007, 12:03:12 PM »
People have been trying to build unbreakable ciphers and perpetual motion machines since many centuries.

In the cipher community it is accepted that every "unbreakable cipher" will be ferociously attacked and that mathematicians will attempt to prove that it is weak or broken.  These ferocious attacks are all done on an intellectual level with no hard feelings. Anyone proposing a new cipher expects this; it is completely normal.  I can assure that this subject is sufficiently complex that when mathematicians talk about cipher algorithms and their resistance to cryptanalysis, you would hardly understand a single word.  The German Telecom had not even finished presenting their algorithm to the AES competition before it had been shown to be flawed.  No bad feelings, no name calling, no haha you are stupid idiots.

On the other hand, during a respectable gathering of scholars and researchers during an International Cold Fusion conference, I have seen scientists excitedly scream at each other because their theory was right and the fellow with the other theory didn't know what he was talking about.

"Mankind's entire knowledge is equal to zero plus delta, where delta approaches zero."
Earl

Once each realizes how utterly and hopelessly stupid one is, one can only be humble.

There is a wise saying:

"There is one and only one word that separates a babbling, insane idiot from a genius."

That one word is success.

So on the fringes of intuition, imagination, and fantasy (do *NOT* use the word science),  you are automatically a babbling, insane idiot, exactly like the Wright brothers in 1902.  Accept this, do not let it bother you.  Accept that you may remain so until you die.  It is up to you with your abstract intelligence (IQ) to cross the line by having provable, scientifically-valid success.  Theories (ideas on forums can not even be called theories), and forum posting can not be equated to success.  Building and measuring correctly while guided by abstract intellect is a necessary, but insufficient condition to achieve success.  If you are smart in some areas, but lacking knowledge in others, do not hesitate to collaborate with peers.  One thing is sure, ego does not help to achieve success.

My 2 cents.

Earl
address any replies to others, since I prefer to build rather than post.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #55 on: November 12, 2007, 12:03:12 PM »
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Offline linda933

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Re: Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #56 on: November 12, 2007, 04:18:34 PM »
@Tom (nightlife)

Glad to hear there is true redemption still possible in this mean old world.  You are one of the lucky ones to have second (third...fourth?) chances to do what's right in life.  Keep it up, man!

@Earl

Great attitude; good advice! 


Linda

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #57 on: November 12, 2007, 05:00:36 PM »
Linda, you're looking for hard facts, right? Here's one--Uncles Sam (US Patent Office, that is) has granted a number of patents on perpetuum mobile's. Now, the contradiction is this--either USA is protecting something pronounced by Science as nonsense or it isn't nonsense and Science has to start living with it. What do you think, how is this contradiction to be resolved? We were discussing this in another thread and @shruggedatlas came up with a lot of insight but the conclusion was that the resolution can come up only through the court system--a third party has to initiate motions in these courts to straighten up this ridiculous state of affairs. Does this seem OK to you?

Offline nightlife

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Re: Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #58 on: November 12, 2007, 05:35:46 PM »
 I honestly feel that our governments are hiding a lot of inventions and or theory?s from us to keep things the way they are. I cant prove this until I finish building one of my motors to have proof it can be done. If I succeed, then I will have to question our governments involvement in keeping things from us because there is no way that I could be the only one to figure something out "provided I have proof that it does work" then all our well educated scientist and or other well educated people.

 One example would be the motor built with using wood screws. There is no way that I beleive that others haven't figured out how to build one in the past before this person has considering all the top well educated scientist that have tried. I just have a hard time believing that motors have not already been built and or at least the concept put in theory and backed with mathematical conclusion.

 I guess I should have stayed in school so I would know how to properly come up with a mathematical theory for my own theory's. The other problem I have is not trusting anyone because of my above thoughts. I may just be an idiot but I am having a hard time proving myself wrong. Probably because I may be an idiot and not even know that. I do hope that makes sense. LOL

 If it doesn?t make sense, go ahead and beat me up,  just please be gentle. LOL

Offline Omnibus

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Re: Being Decent To Each Other
« Reply #59 on: November 12, 2007, 06:30:30 PM »
@nightlife,

It?s quite commendable that you were able to start a new life. Now it?s time to start learning a few things. First thing is to restrain from jumping the gun saying things like:

?I honestly feel that our governments are hiding a lot of inventions and or theory?s from us to keep things the way they are. I cant prove this until I finish building one of my motors to have proof it can be done. I succeed, then I will question our governments involvement in keeping things from us because there is no way that I could be the only one to figure something out "provided I have proof that it does work" then all our well educated scientist and or other well educated people.?

even if you honestly feel that way because you actually have no way at this point to prove what you?re saying and because of that you may look like a fool. Next, you should realize that innovations, new theories don?t pop up just like that. They build on earlier discoveries, theories, findings of sage men and women who have done work prior to yours. In order to understand what?s really there in this respect you must learn to learn, systematically at that. Without systematic knowledge you won?t even know exactly what you?re rejecting and what new you?re proposing. Thus, if lacking systematic education, it may only seem to you, you may only have the feeling that ?all our well educated scientists? are wrong but they may not be. You will be in no position to tell. You won?t be able to defend the thing you consider your theory as being more than crappy thoughts on a Sunday morning.

That said, I must add also that the overwhelming number of the well educated scientists will never even consider working on a project such as the one @xpenzif has undertaken. Why? Because it?s dangerous for their careers to question the very fundamentals for what they are getting salaries. There are mortgages to be paid, kids to be put through college, vacations to be had, all kinds of bills to be paid etc., etc. One can?t jeopardize their job security, they think, for something so much shattering their little world. Remember, conservatism pays the most in academia in many much more convenient ways than questioning such fundamental doctrines as CoE. 99.9999% of the trained scientists will not touch claims for violation of CoE with a ten foot pole. Mostly because of dishonesty. There is one word which characterizes contemporary Science?dishonesty. Honesty is a very rare commodity these days in academia. There are honest people there but their number is negligibly small. Turns out dishonesty pays the most?play the game properly and you?ll have a happy little life. These so-called trained scientists everywhere in academia are not to be trusted one bit when it comes to matters of importance of the magnitude we?re discussing here, not because they lack training but because they are dishonest. Therefore, don?t assume that it had occurred to top well educated scientists to have given even a minute?s thought on a machine @xpenzif is showing us here.

However, I do agree that we have absolutely no evidence that such machines haven?t existed in the past. On the contrary, more and more evidence is coming about, indicating that they in fact may have but have been deliberately neglected (putting it mildly, rather than saying ?suppressed?). The great heroes of Science have appeared not because somehow they discovered something which automatically brought them fame. Nothing farther from the truth. The great heroes of Science we know of are in the textbooks because what they did was to the liking of the powers that be who promoted them. No matter how bright or how stupid, incorrect or ridiculous that thing may be. Power (linked to money, of course) in the world determines what is true and what is not. Never mind all the talk of scientific method. This is for the consolation of the na?ve. Of course, the powers that be cannot allow themselves to promote always dummy things. England has to prevail over France, therefore, it cannot afford to entertain illusions in the practical matters of war, for instance. This is why the Royal Society (the local Academy of Sciences) appeared, to filter up to a point the nonsense that may weaken the country. However, the county may be weakened even more by allowing some inconvenient truths to prevail. Therefore, that society takes proper care of that too. That?s in a few words the scheme we are all victims of. It is only said when you?re taught in colleges that Science is about search for the truth. They only say it but they don?t really mean it. In addition, most of the instructors there are so overwhelmed with other stuff that search for the truth doesn?t even come up in their to do lists for the day, the year or even their entire career. This is enough, keeping with the topic of this thread, to treat these people with disrespect. One of the things these people really deserve is not to be polite with them because they only pretend to be scientists, violating the main tenet of what they have undertaken to do.

Now, back to you?if you have something you think is interesting just show it, otherwise it?ll be prudent not to express opinions you cannot back up with facts.

 

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