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News announcements and other topics => News => Topic started by: FreeEnergy on June 27, 2005, 09:47:29 AM

Title: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: FreeEnergy on June 27, 2005, 09:47:29 AM
anyone heard of this? they say is over unity.

VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_-DUKQ4Uw

http://www.alternativescience.com/over-unity.htm
http://www.xmx.it/pompaidrosonica.htm
http://www.hydrodynamics.com/technology_review.htm
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: joegatt on August 21, 2005, 09:29:45 PM
Very interesting! This is the first time I heard of cavitation being produced deliberately by mechanical means.
In the lab, it is usually done with piezos. 
I think we'll be getting even more surprises from cavitation.

Take a look this webpage, the article on sonoluminescence:

http://www.lenr-canr.org/News.htm

I was particularly impressed with the work of Roger Stringham.


Cheers
Joseph
 
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: FreeEnergy on April 20, 2006, 10:02:14 PM
http://darmowa-energia.eko.org.pl/pliki/cieplo/pk.html
http://www.rexresearch.com/griggs/griggs.htm
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: hartiberlin on April 20, 2006, 11:30:30 PM
Yes, the Griggs pump is about 160 % efficient,
there are installations in the Lousianna Fire department
heating and shower rooms.
It is probably one of the first real overunity available products
since a few years.
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: FreeEnergy on November 21, 2006, 09:43:32 PM
:D
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: rapttor on November 22, 2006, 12:45:09 AM
I've recently built a replication of Grigg's pump, I have to say.. I turned it out in maybe 3hrs on a small scale for proof of concept to see just how well it works. It sure does, only my haste came back to bite me in the ass, when I realized one of the big issues with this pump is sealing the pump shaft. I used a piece of 6061 aluminum for the rotor, pressed in a 5/16 steel shaft, used an old pair of rollerblade bearings, the housing is a piece of 2" chrome steel exhaust piping, with 3/8" thick end plates. I'll post up pics of it shortly. I have a larger unit in the works already which will have a 5.25" rotor inside a section of cast iron pipe.
When I spun up my test model, there's a certain rpm that the cavitation starts to really take off. I didn't do any actual measurements of temps, but with my fingers on the outside of the main casing (tube) it went from room temp to untouchable in a matter of maybe 15 to 20 seconds!! suprised the hell out of me.

Anyone have ideas on how to seal the shaft? Teflon? pressure rings? I'm all ears.
-art
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: mikestocks2006 on November 22, 2006, 01:36:35 AM
I've recently built a replication of Grigg's pump, I have to say.. I turned it out in maybe 3hrs on a small scale for proof of concept to see just how well it works. It sure does, only my haste came back to bite me in the ass, when I realized one of the big issues with this pump is sealing the pump shaft. I used a piece of 6061 aluminum for the rotor, pressed in a 5/16 steel shaft, used an old pair of rollerblade bearings, the housing is a piece of 2" chrome steel exhaust piping, with 3/8" thick end plates. I'll post up pics of it shortly. I have a larger unit in the works already which will have a 5.25" rotor inside a section of cast iron pipe.
When I spun up my test model, there's a certain rpm that the cavitation starts to really take off. I didn't do any actual measurements of temps, but with my fingers on the outside of the main casing (tube) it went from room temp to untouchable in a matter of maybe 15 to 20 seconds!! suprised the hell out of me.

Anyone have ideas on how to seal the shaft? Teflon? pressure rings? I'm all ears.
-art

Hi raptor, nice work!
If you post some pics or cross section schematics it might be easier.
Without knowing your exact configuration at the bearing areas, rotational speeds, pressures and temps involved, I'll try some general input:
a. you can try O-rings around the shaft, use a spring and a washer to improve the seal. O-ring against the end plate, washer against the O-ring, one spring-end against the washer and other spring-end against the rotor. I/4" ID O-ring and 5/16" ID washer (they are usually oversized on the ID) and a 3/8 ID spring should do the job.

b. If you have access to any old hydraulic cylinders, they have some nice V-lip seals radialy spring loaded on the shafts and also on the pistons you might use if the dimensions match.

c. materials, would depend on speeds pressure and temps. I'd start with some Silicon O-rings from the local hardware store if you have access to one. Or try depending on Dia the washers used for the hot side water faucets etc.

d. high pressure sealed bearings would to the job too off the self, but they can be expensive, for proof of concept.

e. the easier and simplest way may be to have the shaft to end plates as a simple -slip fit- smooth/polish the surfaces and use option a. above.

Note, the second bearing area can be completely covered. so you'd only need to seal the drive side. (Like an end bell cap, pipe cap, over the free shaft side etc.)

I hope this helps
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: dynamicdj101 on November 22, 2006, 12:02:33 PM
Hi !!!  I'm new here. You could use a seal from a car or big engine water pump. There are also pumps that use magnets on each side of the pump casing so there isn't a shaft to seal.
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: rapttor on November 22, 2006, 03:56:04 PM
@ Mikestock

Sure does help, I've wrapped my mind around this issue several times, so what you are explaining... makes perfect sense to me.
I'm on call this week for work(luckyme) and got called out to work on a Cell site at 2a.m. & I didn't get in until 5:30am this morning.
I just hoped in the truck and headed, so I didn't get any pictures yet... but I'll toss up a basic diagram so you have a better idea of where I'm coming from.

Here's some info that I know off the top:
RPM's - approx 8K to 15K (smaller the unit, higher the rpm, larger the lower the rpm).
Temps - 250' F to 350' F
Pressures (water inlet pressure) - up to approx 75 lbs
Bearing Surfaces - On the end plates, on the outside faces, bearings will be recessed, flush with the surface. inner hole dia. would match rotor shaft size & have approx .001 - .003 clearance, easier to seal.

I'll draw some simple diagrams so you have a better mental image of where I'm coming from.

Regards,
-art
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: Paul-R on November 22, 2006, 04:56:52 PM
Did not John Worrell Keely have a hydro-vacuo or hydropneumatic device of some sort? Using the energy of water hammer in bad plumbing?
Paul.
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: Jerry Volland on November 23, 2006, 02:36:18 AM
I read about something like this back in the 70's.  It was in Search magazine, or a similar publication.  The system used two counter rotating discs, closely spaced in a water jacket.  When the discs were turned at high speed, steam was immediately produced.  The article stated the principle of operation was a cavitation effect, with OU.  I've always believed in this, and I think the excess energy may be coming from the ZPF, with the cavitation bubbles acting as quantum wells.  I wonder if several units can be cascaded, to multiply the OU enough to power a closed loop?
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: buzneg on November 23, 2006, 09:04:00 AM
motors are 90% efficent, how efficently can one turn steam into electricity? stirling engine, or copper wire, transfering heat to the input water?
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: rapttor on November 23, 2006, 08:10:46 PM
Jim Griggs was able to produce consistant numbers of 35% - 70% more energy (output as steam) than the drive motor was using. It's not so much the HP of the motor, but rather a motor that's capable of 5-15K RPM so that you can fine tune it for the best efficiency.

-art
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: mikestocks2006 on November 23, 2006, 09:28:10 PM
Art,

At 15k rpm on a 5/16 shaft, we are looking at aprox 6.7 m/sec surface speed. (surface speed is one of the critical factors in rotary seal designs, others are pressure, surface finish, liquid chemical reactivity with seal material vs temp etc.)
At 15k rpm it?s borderline between using mid and higher end quality seal material for longevity.
Nitrile might do the job too, PTFE (Teflon type) would be better. Buna-N rubber may not cut it for prolonged periods.
On the non drive side, cap it (no leaks) and use a bronze sleeve bushing, light press fit on the end plate, slip/clearance fit on the shaft, they are very cheap readily available and durable and you can get them with very high tolerances.

Once you post some schematics, it may help to provide more specifics. If you use the inlet through the shaft (requires a much simpler but more expensive design) there are off the self units available that can handle up to 20k rpm, over 1000psi  and temps to 250 F maybe higher depending on materials an usage specs.
For proof of concept the easiest and cheapest solution may still be the silicon O-ring/washer/spring combo suggested earlier.
It all depends on the scope of what the device/experiment is trying to accomplish.

I hope this helps.
Good luck.
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: allcanadian on November 24, 2006, 12:01:30 AM
Hey raptor we use graphite shaft seals on our pumps ,high pressure steam system . High temp, cheap and very durable. Go to a plumber ask for condensate pump shaft seals.
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: idnick on November 25, 2006, 12:30:05 AM
Hi Art

I am going to try to send a pic. of the Griggs Hydrosonic Pump that I replicated. Take note of the automotive seal I used. I've turned this unit at 3450 RPM but for my application 1725 is plenty fast to produce high temps (I shut it off at 240 degrees) and steam.  Rotor is 8 5/8" No problem with leakage.  If photo comes through, I'll send Stephan pics from start to finish. Rotor is about half impressive, even if I say so myself

Dave

Don't know much about sending pictures, but here goes..
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: rapttor on November 25, 2006, 02:09:56 AM
@Idnick

Very nice! Automotive type seal.. meaning that you used something in the 62022-23 series? Who did the machining? It's nice work. If you don't mind me asking, for the tube section & rotor.. did you use standard steel pipe & alum / steel or something else that's corrosion resistant? I'm going to take some pictures tonight to show my build, but I'm already working on the next sized unit, which will be a 5.25 billet al rotor with a cast iron section of pipe for the outer housing. Thanks for sharing, and I'd love to see the other pics of the build if you can post them up.
@Mike, thanks for the calculations and insight on the inside aspects of this cool device, and the mention of the other options that I have, which can be easily overlooked if you're only seeing things from one set of eyes...

@AllCanadian, I like the sounds of the graphite seals, I've got a plumbers supply house 15mins away which I use for my steam stuff on my home furnace, I think I'll take a ride tomorrow... thanks a bunch for the info.

-regards,
Art
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: idnick on November 25, 2006, 02:35:37 AM
 @Mike

I just went down to Napa and ask for a seal that fit a 5/8 shaft. Outside was about a 1.33 in. A friend gave me a 6 foot length of stainless pipe. 3/16" thickness.  That is the tube. The rotor is alumium. I built a furnace and burner to smelt the rotor because of the price. (8"X12" round was 586.00) Couldn't afford that.  I did all of the machining myself.
 Looking forward to seeing your project also, and thanks for the compliment.

Dave

Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: idnick on November 25, 2006, 02:42:55 AM
 @Mike

Here's another look at the inside

Dave
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: idnick on November 25, 2006, 03:03:22 AM
Hi all

Don't know why I put @ mike on these pics.  Their're for everyone, enjoy
I also spelled Stefans name wrong in the first post. He probably won't speak to me forever ;D

Dave
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: allcanadian on November 27, 2006, 11:59:51 PM
Hey idnick
I think grigg had a wavey outer casing, that is the clearance changed so as the holes in the rotor came around the water in them was compressed then decompressed very rapidly.
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: idnick on November 28, 2006, 04:58:14 AM
@ allcanadian

You might be right about that, but the way I read it the outer case could have a smooth or rough interior. I choosed smooth cause I don't know what kind of mess i'd have ended up with  ;D. But thanks for pointing it out. Things can get overlooked, especially for old guys like me :(   Thanks for the input

Dave
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: idnick on November 28, 2006, 05:04:32 AM
 allcanadian
I believe it's all in them holes in the rotor that causes the hydrosonics.  Takes forever to masure, mark and drill em.  :(

Dave
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: allcanadian on November 28, 2006, 08:25:41 AM
Hello idnick
This is what I thought Griggs meant, as well the yusmar seems to use the same principal called sonoluminescence.
In my bad picture, as the rotor turns a hole in the rotor approaches an inward "bump"(2) this compresses the fluid in the hole as designated by red dots, the hole then moves past the bump and decompresses as designated by blue dots(1). The magic seems to appear when the frequency of compression/decompression (RPM) is very high, that is why griggs used hundreds of holes, to lower the rotor RPM to managable levels.
The effect they say is based on cavitation or what we know as water hammer, only griggs found it more pronounced at ultrasonic frequencies near 24,000 Hz I believe, google ultrasonic frequencies to get the right number. If you take the number of holes on the circumference of the rotor in one line times RPM divided by 60 you get the number of compressions per second/per hole.Then times this by the number of bumps on the casing for total compressions per second, this is compression cycles/sec equivalent to frequency cycles per second, so 24,000 compressions/second is huge!
This is why I though the yusmar was much easier to build, It can be done your way though I think, and your a much better man than me if you can do it, best regards and please keep us updated.
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: rapttor on November 28, 2006, 02:57:03 PM
@AllCanadian

Wow, this would mean that it can work better? damn, I thought on my first replication attempt,  I was pretty suprised how quickly I got hot water. I don't recall when watching videos of it, that when I saw the scene where they are installing the rotor, it appears to be a smooth bore. huh... very interesting sir, thanks for sharing.

-art
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: mikestocks2006 on December 01, 2006, 06:29:36 PM
@Mike

I just went down to Napa and ask for a seal that fit a 5/8 shaft. Outside was about a 1.33 in. A friend gave me a 6 foot length of stainless pipe. 3/16" thickness.  That is the tube. The rotor is alumium. I built a furnace and burner to smelt the rotor because of the price. (8"X12" round was 586.00) Couldn't afford that.  I did all of the machining myself.
 Looking forward to seeing your project also, and thanks for the compliment.

Dave


Nice work. The effect is based on the relative speed of the rotor surface vs the stator (case) surface, the more holes the higher the frequency of cavitations per one revolution.
Going back to raptor's search for seals, with lower input shaft rpm you can get away with a regular automotive pump seal, assuming it can handle the pressures of 75 psi as raptor was specifying earlier.
Temperature wise, it's close.. Not sure if the car water pump can handle 350 F.
The radiator pressure relief caps are rated about 7psi you can get them as high as 18-20 psi for higher operating temperatures.
So a pump seal doesn?t see more than 20 psi on high end applications with normal operation of less than that. Also, the rotational speed of a car pump is nowhere near 15000 rpm.
In designing any system we need to account for the worst case scenarios based on the specifications and add some factros of safety to assure longevity :)
However; it is a great suggestion for proof of concept assuming it doesn't blow out too fast.

Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: mikestocks2006 on December 01, 2006, 06:36:19 PM
Hello idnick
This is what I thought Griggs meant, as well the yusmar seems to use the same principal called sonoluminescence.
In my bad picture, as the rotor turns a hole in the rotor approaches an inward "bump"(2) this compresses the fluid in the hole as designated by red dots, the hole then moves past the bump and decompresses as designated by blue dots(1). The magic seems to appear when the frequency of compression/decompression (RPM) is very high, that is why griggs used hundreds of holes, to lower the rotor RPM to managable levels.
The effect they say is based on cavitation or what we know as water hammer, only griggs found it more pronounced at ultrasonic frequencies near 24,000 Hz I believe, google ultrasonic frequencies to get the right number. If you take the number of holes on the circumference of the rotor in one line times RPM divided by 60 you get the number of compressions per second/per hole.Then times this by the number of bumps on the casing for total compressions per second, this is compression cycles/sec equivalent to frequency cycles per second, so 24,000 compressions/second is huge!
This is why I though the yusmar was much easier to build, It can be done your way though I think, and your a much better man than me if you can do it, best regards and please keep us updated.

Yes!. Nice. The more ridges on the case, and the more holes on the drum (per circumference) the higher the frequency. It basically creates a high pressure/vacuum impulse oscillation as each cavity passes by the ridge.
Mentioning of Sonoluminescence. Some interesting refs on frequencies.
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1095.0.html

Good work folks.

Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: idnick on December 02, 2006, 05:12:59 AM
Hi all:
I found this kinda interesting also. Check out link below. Take note that there's no ridges inside this clear cylinder.
   NASA engineers solved a design problem with Hydro Dynamics' rotor for use in the Hydrosonic Pump.TM The holes in the rotor produce microscopic bubbles, preventing the buildup of impurities (scale).
http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Cavitation_Heaters
Dave
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: kukulcangod on December 13, 2006, 08:50:26 AM
Incredible job ........I wanted to make one for experimenting but the information in here is saving all of that thank you for sharing your findings
 Now let me share and suggest something as well......How about pairing this system with a tesla rotor?? and an efficient generator?

 Can someone help me out to make the calculations to make such system a reality?
 if I'm right a small apt needs about 30kilowatts to be independent forgive me if I'm wrong I'm not good at conversions,
 what size such system will need to be?  ???
I think we can make a closed system ........will it be possible??
It seems that the tesla turbine can be simple enough to build and small enough just take a look at this fascinating website a lot of work has been put in it :

http://phoenixnavigation.com/ptbc/home.htm

Please don't forget about me let me know of the calcualtions needed ;)
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: buzneg on December 14, 2006, 03:12:27 AM
The average household uses about 5kW per hour
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: comcyber on December 15, 2006, 05:15:53 PM
... and here it is: the cavition heater WITHOUT electricity,
normally for whirlpool wholesale only ... so where's the problem ?
 8)


http://cgi.ebay.com/Thermowave-Water-Heater-for-Whirlpool_W0QQitemZ280023792550QQcmdZViewItem

Specifications at:

http://www.remodelyourbath.com/generalinfo.html

Regards,

Com
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: idnick on December 15, 2006, 09:42:11 PM
@ comcyber

"so where's the problem ?"  "cavition heater WITHOUT electricity"
To start with, that heater won't heat s%&t without an electric motor hooked to a pump to force the water through a restricked area,So as you can see it's not without electricity.
  I also noticed that you did a lot of research on this subject. You join this group group 1 day ago, Number of posts 1 and it is of no value.   Now you know where the problem is.

Dave
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: dean_mcgowan on December 16, 2006, 12:15:19 AM
welcome aboard comcyber .. hehehe

hang in there champ .. it gets better :D
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: FreeEnergy on December 16, 2006, 06:12:20 AM
welcome aboard comcyber .. hehehe

hang in there champ .. it gets better :D


LoL!
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: hydrocontrol on January 14, 2007, 03:10:09 AM
Can someone give me a pointer to plans on how to build this ? I'm thinking that this would be great to heat a large tank of water for hydronic household radiant heating system. I have access to a machine shop, a solid 5" diameter x 5" thick alumininum billet, and a 5" diameter cast iron pipe. Sounds like a fun project but details would help.

Thanks,
TomG
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: hydrocontrol on January 14, 2007, 03:38:11 AM
It also looks like having grooves in the inside of the outer housing would add to the heating effect. I have a shaper attachement on the mill at work so I could do a spline effect on the inside of the outer housing but it would thin the outer wall a fair amount. Would grooves 1.5 times the rotor hole size work ? I suppose another option would be a tube inside a tube (tight fit) and just machine grooves all the way thru the inner tube before sliding it inside the outer tube and welding it. Should produce the same effect and still maintain a good wall thickness. It would just make the inside rotor a bit smaller. What do you guys think ?

Thanks,
TomG
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: idnick on January 14, 2007, 06:00:39 PM
Sure TomG

Lotsa info on the link below.

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Cavitation_Heaters

I also wrote up a brief discription of how I built it under the thread Frenette-Heater  (Page 2 This site)

No where did I find the specks for the size or depth of holes to drill in the rotor so I just went with 1/2 inch dia. and approx. 3/4 inch deep, spaced 18 degrees apart and 15 degrees angled off center of shaft.
If possable build a furnace and burner as I did and turn a lawnmower into a rotor and end caps.  :D You won't have time to mow the grass anyway once ya get started on this project.  ;D

As for the 5" diameter x 5" thick alumininum billet, and a 5" diameter cast iron pipe that sounds a little small for what you want to do with it. Another thing to think about is that the Griggs heater is not really a pump for circulating fluids and if you could incorperate a pump inside the unit then you would have a great machine. You'll notice that I machined slots (5 degree angle) across the face of my rotor thinking that it would work as a pump.(Doesn't work that well.) I'm in the process of mounting the motor, heater and Nissan power steering pump (for circulation) inside a gutted out 10,000 BTU air conditioner and using only the condenser for heat supply (Hope it works)
You're lucky to have a machine shop at you're disposal and I wish you all the luck in building a Griggs heater. Keep us informed how you're doin.

Regards
Dave

 PS  Here's a pic. of my hot water tank furnace, and burner (6"x9" melting pot = 20lbs.alunimun


Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: pese on January 14, 2007, 11:44:37 PM
@CompCyber

Manufacturer say:
Not only does the temperature of the water increase, but the ambient air
temperture does as well.  The air in the room will increase at approximately
1/10 of a degree every five minutes.


This is not seriosly !!!

This will say 1 ?C  near ONE Hour !!!?

This is for 1 liter  ? 50 liter Bath  or 5000 Liter Swimming pool ?

The ambient air to heat ???

for  an living room ? an hall?

how good must all be "insulated" ??

how many watts wil go in the pump ?

The heat of "pump-motor" will als heat the water up....


I belive "not so effective heater"

G.P


Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: hydrocontrol on January 15, 2007, 12:25:00 AM
Thanks Dave,
 It is a start. Guess I will do a little more research. Got a couple of ideas but not a whole lot of materials. I might be able to stack a bunch of one inch alumininum plates and make it larger diameter like 12 inches. It would be easier to machine as each segment would be 1 inch thick x 12 inches diameter so I could do 6 seperate segments instead of trying to find (and afford) a solid one piece of material. The trick maybe finding a 12 inch steel pipe to put it all in. As soon as I get going I will post pictures and results.

Thanks,
TomG :)
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: idnick on February 17, 2007, 04:53:01 PM
@ Whitebird

Hope this photo answers some of your questions.

@ TomG

How's your project coming along. I'll post a pic of what I'm up too later

Dave
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: comcyber on February 19, 2007, 07:58:06 PM
Hello pese,

don't have detailed specifications about this "thermowave"-unit; i think, the most simple way is just to buy one and then "re-engineer" it ... for the seriously interested people, $12.50 isn't to much money ... for a commercial available cavitational heater ... 8)

Tried to buy one, but they're only shipping to the U.S., not to Germany :(
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: idnick on February 20, 2007, 03:20:01 AM
Hi CompCyber

Read Reply #38 on: January 14, 2007, page 4 this thread.

pese could not have put it any plainer as to what the thermowave will do. Also I don't think there's anything to "re-engineer" with the thermowave. You might be lucky that they're only shipping to US because if you had a shipload of thermowaves' sent to Germany I don't think you could heat up a hamburger in Hamburg.  ;D
Anyway If you get your hands on one and re-engineer it let us know how it worked out.

Regards Dave
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: pese on February 20, 2007, 02:36:02 PM
tks for the messages.
it give better ways to produce hydrocaloric,
that is more efficent , so it need not special
testequipment to obsere little power rsults.
tks
Pese
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: idnick on February 20, 2007, 03:25:04 PM
Yup.  You're right on, pese   ;)

Dave
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: allcanadian on February 23, 2007, 07:20:33 PM
Hey Idnick
I found somthing you may find very interesting, I just finished a book called "The Energy Evolution" by callum coats, about Victor Schaubergers technologies. This is absolutely a must read, it's a bit cryptic at times but has a huge amount of info on his patents from original manuscripts.
Tell me if this sounds familiar?
Victor S used spinning water(vortex) to produce heat or cold at will in machines that were self-runners. This book confirmed my suspicions of what he was doing, so I'll give you the short version.
Just before Victor.S started making self-running machines he was Very intersted in Lord Kelvins water drop static charge generator and the fact that once charge was built up the drop would be repelled upward against gravity. As well a nozzle propelling water vapor through a (+)charged ring can produce over 15,000 volts (-)charge in the water vapor. Since (-) charges repell (-) charges the vapor can be repelled upwards against gravity, but he went further. If a rapidly spinning column of (-)charged water vapor spins in a (-)charged container then the vapor repells from the container thus there is no friction due to boundary layer interactions. The (+) charged vapor is also pushed to the center of the column by repulsion, so we have water vapor spinning rapidly with a seperation of charges and it just so happens that this is what is required to seperate H2O into Hydrogen and Oxygen. If the center column of oxygen rich water vapor later recombines with the outer hydrogen rich water vapor then heat is produced, if the hydrogen rich water vapor is siphoned off it rises rapidly recombined with air to produce a cooling effect(vacuum-implosion), the oxygen rich water vapor can burn producing heat, there are endless combinations. Victor S used the seperated hot and cold flows to produce rapidly moving air flows(hot expansion to cold vacuum) doubling the power density.
I am 100% sure Victor.S had this process nailed down to perfection, So how does it relate to your machine?
Your outer casing has a (+) charge from the atmoshere, and when the water hits a pocket in the rotor it cavitates(vaporizes), rapidly moving water/vapor past (+) outer casing creates a huge (-) charge on rotor, the attraction of oppositly charged water vapor moves the flow inward between the rotor and casing. Under the right conditions the movement could be centripital, that is (+)outer charge moves towards (-) inward charged vapor speeding up the rotor or flow or both. In any case if the charge seperation and pressure fuctuations seperate water vapor in the rotor pockets into H and O then outside the pocket they could recombine producing water and heat. Victor.S also said the most efficient machine would be use a reciprocal process, that is the seperation drives the processas well as the recombination. So if massive turbulence in the pocket(cavitation) and charge seperation produce a cooling effect in the pocket(implosion)water is sucked in from the front flow, when leaving the pocket the bubble collapses under pressure, the H and O recombine producing heat, the pressurized hot water moves rapidly towards the next cool pocket under a vacuum.
Of course this is all speculation but there are things to look for-

- the outer casing could short circuit to the rotor through your bearings, no charge seperation, use large gasket to seperate at least 1/2"
- limit the inlet flow to produce more cavitation or add charged air into the inlet with the water(google lord kelvin water drop generator)
- pocket geometry should maximize water/vapor velocity ie- swirl, cavitation
- use insulated probe in outlet to measure potential difference(Voltage) between outlet flow and rotor.
- build rediculously sensitive charge detector from Bill Beaty's web site and measure static charge in and around machine.

In any case good luck, and give this book a read if you get the chance
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: idnick on February 23, 2007, 07:51:47 PM
Thanks allcanadian

That is some fantastic info in your last post. I'll do alot more checking it out. The part about spinning water just came up on WaterFuel1978@yahoogroups.com where they are making massive amounts of gas in seconds not minutes. Ya otta check it out. Very interesting.

Dave
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: allcanadian on February 23, 2007, 08:10:21 PM
I should have mentioned as well that Victor.S made huge leaps in technology within a few years, at this exact time he was researching static generators(lord Kelvin) and hydrolysis of water vapor. From this point on he used water vapor exclusively, it was said the vapor was so fine it could only be detected with a mirror. So Im guessing a very fine water mist with large static charges applied will seperate into H and O under large centripital or centrrifugal forces. Everyone is always talking about how it is almost impossible to convert free static charges to useable power in an electrical circuit. So do away with the circuit, have the charges do work in a process, then harness the process.
Im going to start with the basic tests VS did when he started making huge leaps forward, that is oppositely charged spinning vapor streams. I don't want to hog your thread so I'll start a new one somewhere in the forum.
best regards
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: kukulcangod on February 27, 2007, 10:09:04 AM
Very interesting addition that will be.......

I've read that book I hope you are already at the group:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/viktorschaubergergroup/

You will see my effort at making a repulsin out of a radiocontrolled motor

About this treath idnick's info is unvaluable ........but for the time beign I just don't have a machine to make all of this , so I have to figure out other ways.

Good Luck


Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: idnick on February 27, 2007, 06:46:49 PM
Sorry bout the screw up kukulcangod.

Google this link:

  groups.yahoo.com/group/WaterFuel1978/

Dave

"About this treath idnick's info is unvaluable "  ???  "treath"  This mean thread? Good luck. You'll find it  ;)
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: allcanadian on February 27, 2007, 08:35:23 PM
Yesterday I finally made the connection between static charge and implosion.
Brown's Gas! 2H2O2 
VS used catalytic metals(copper/silver) to induce huge charges in a spinning stream of fine water vapor.
What is even more interesting is that charge(current or static charge)seperates water into 2H2O2, if you ignite the mixture with a spark it implodes by a ratio of something like 1800:1, it turns back into water without a large heat reaction. But there's more, when it implodes the electrical energy that made the gas is released as a huge static charge.So here is the reaction sequence-

- Add current or static charge to heated or rapidly moving water vapor(heat is motion)
- gasses seperate at ratio of 1:1800 Victors cold expansion? YES
- move gasses to confined area and ignite
- implosion pulls huge suction at ratio of 1800:1, gasses turn to water without large heat reaction- Victors Hot contraction? YES
- A turbine harnesses the motion of the incoming gasses to  power a generator
- The static charge initially put into the gas is released and conducted with metal piping to the incoming water vapor/air- conservation of energy
- so the electrical process in balanced but the motion of the air/water vapor is not, it is a continuous cycle.
---- But what would this machine look like??
Looks like the machine below Victor's Patent#145141 fits the bill exactly!!
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: IronHead on February 27, 2007, 08:42:52 PM
Fascinating! hmmm  where to begin.
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: allcanadian on February 27, 2007, 09:45:20 PM
Exactly! hold on a minute while I whip a few of these puppy's up.
Can you say engineering problem from hell!
There's got to be an easier design to make this process happen.
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: IronHead on February 27, 2007, 09:46:42 PM
There is , I will have a few 3d models in a couple days to help explain an efficient design using modern day parts.

Ok I got it. Lets start with cold vaporized water of super fine mist using ultrasonic fogger :)



Just Build It
 IronHead
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: allcanadian on February 27, 2007, 09:55:57 PM
Remember there are issues of embrittlement, large pressure/temperature differentials to contend with, extreme static charges and no more than 3 moving parts.
Piece of cake

Im moving in the same direction so maybe when your done we can compare notes.
Im thinking valvless pulsejet type design with inlet turbine.
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: IronHead on February 27, 2007, 10:02:16 PM
Yup we are on the same page here. Will have something to show soon.
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: allcanadian on February 27, 2007, 10:16:23 PM
Hey here's a little know trick I picked up in gas turbine R&D, a single turbine rotor with enough momentum becomes a perfect valve when the flow is reversed. The blade nozzle effect chokes the flow, so with proper geometry it can effectively act like a check valve, one that takes extreme pressure swings with one moving part.
Sweet
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: IronHead on February 27, 2007, 10:17:23 PM
Might want to start a new thread on this?
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: FreeEnergy on May 04, 2007, 10:48:13 AM
any news?  ;D
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: FreeEnergy on May 04, 2007, 12:37:35 PM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8881833303262168998&q=genre%3Aeducational+is%3Afree
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: ChileanOne on May 18, 2007, 02:41:49 PM
Hello Folks:

I am really interested in this kind of water heating devices, that have been tested to have a near unity efficiency as you can see in the following paper:

http://www.earthtech.org/publications/AIAA-2006-4909-871.pdf

quote:

Another device (which must remain nameless due to a non-disclosure agreement with the developer) involved a
motor-driven rotor in a close-fitting housing. Water was forced through the gaps around the rotor where intense
cavitation was supposed to occur. This device was claimed to impart up to 50% more heat energy to the water
flowing through it than the mechanical energy required to drive it. We tested this device using a larger version of the
same batch calorimeter described above. In this case we constructed a cradle dynamometer to directly measure the
mechanical input energy. With a 30 hp electric motor and copious generation of steam by the device, this was a very
exciting and sometimes dangerous experiment. However, our measurements never showed any sign of excess
energy. Furthermore, by comparing mechanical input energy to heat output energy we were able to obtain a nearperfect
energy balance in our measurements, typically 99% +/- 1%. We were fortunate to have significant
cooperation from the developer of this device and, during a visit to our facility, we accidentally discovered the
source of most of his anomalous readings: improper usage of his electrical power analyzer.


Althought not OU, the near unity is by itself remarkable. I have been looking if there is any other process available to heat water with such efficiency by electrical means.

Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: j3s on November 23, 2007, 07:43:38 PM
This is something i am wanting to try, is there asny ideas where i might get the materials to build a hydrosonic pump/. ik am in a search for the materials

JES
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: FreeEnergy on August 26, 2008, 10:08:21 AM
anyone heard of this? they say is over unity.

VIDEO: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yh_-DUKQ4Uw

http://www.xmx.it/pompaidrosonica.htm
http://www.hydrodynamics.com/technology_review.htm
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: tbird on August 27, 2008, 04:04:28 PM
is anyone having a problem getting the 2nd page to open,besides me?

tom
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: FreeEnergy on August 30, 2008, 12:51:39 AM
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,356.40.html does not seem to work!
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump - THREAD IS NOT WORKING, PLEASE FIX IT.
Post by: FreeEnergy on August 30, 2008, 12:55:02 AM
THANK YOU
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: helmut on August 30, 2008, 02:45:47 PM
@ Whitebird

Hope this photo answers some of your questions.

@ TomG

How's your project coming along. I'll post a pic of what I'm up too later

Dave


The second page of this tread does not work. Thats why i post a testanswer.
Will see what happend.

helmut
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: albator10 on August 31, 2008, 07:01:52 PM
The second page is not working

Can someone help?
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: Zuppy on September 22, 2008, 07:52:16 PM
Hello everyone,

I like to build a hydrosonic pump with a 10 inch rotor . My question is: are there any schematic ore callculations regarding the size and depht of the holes and size of the rotor.  I already googled "hydrosonic and Griggs Pump", but did not find any measurements to start with. Any help is welcome and if I make any progression, I post it here.

Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: hartiberlin on September 23, 2008, 01:06:05 AM
The second page is not working

Can someone help?

I have fixed this error now.

Please don´t post so big sized pictures.

Please scale them down to around 800x600
or 1024x768.

Otherwise people have problems to look at them
and the server also does not like it.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: sudds1113 on December 26, 2008, 04:21:55 PM
Hi, I am new to this forum, but I have had an interest in the Griggs pump for a couple of years now. I think this might be the year I put the info I have gathered to the test and build a prototype. I do have some questions that some of you may have the answers to. On previous posts it was commented that the "hydrosonic pump" doesn't actually pump. Will the fluid in the unit move on its own or do you need a separate pump  to move things along? I was thinking of building one along the lines of the "KAMPEN72" design from Holland. Does anyone know this design? It seams that all the info I find is on the Griggs type with a divorce type pump and motor.

 Any info would be great, I don't know why this technology is not more wide spread. If I get this to work I plan to use it to heat my house like the KAMPEN72 video shows. Then I'll build one for every one of my family members and then my friends, and so on.... 
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: Yucca on January 08, 2009, 04:06:32 AM
I think the griggs hydrosonic pump could be improved by coupling it with the N machine process:

thread about N machine:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=626.0

Make a griggs hydrosonic pump, but instead of having a solid spinning cylinder make the cylinder out of thickish copper disks sandwiched between thickish axially polarised neo disks. Maybe 3 coppers with 2 neos in middle. Now machine the outer edge of the coppers for the cavitation holes just like a regular griggs. Could also optionally machine outer edges of neos using high speed oil lubricated grinding tools.

Insulate the end faces of the sandwich using epoxy based marine paint, make sure the copper faces are nicely roughed up using fine grit emery before painting.

Make sure the shaft is well electrically connected to the outer casing, may need hefty brushes for this, Brush cooling will be enhanced by the fact that they are immersed.

Now fill the pump using water with a good amount of electrolyte in it and spin her up.

This should produce good heat from the cavitation alone but also lots more heat as a very high current will also flow between the cylinder and the drum wall, the stronger the electrolyte the higher the current. What´s more the friction of the power take off using water and electrolyte will be just the usual friction encountered in a griggs machine, the extra heat produced electrically will be for free as the Nmachine process does not produce lenz back torque like in an ordinary electrical generator.

All conducting surfaces in contact with the electrolyte  may need to be coated or sputtered with graphite or some other inert conductor to prevent ion migration for a long life.

Maybe a house could be heated very cheaply by filling its radiator system with electrolyte and then running a good sized one of these using a rotoverted motor.

Yucca.
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: FreeEnergy on March 05, 2009, 01:52:28 AM
any news on this? any actual working replicas? come on guys!
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: SomedayIsle on March 05, 2009, 05:13:03 AM
I seem to recall an invention being mentioned which makes use of hydrosonics via solid state methodology which was being positioned for the home water heating market.   Hey, if the lowly pistol shrimp can master the finer points of hydrosonic cavitation.....why not we?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKPrGxB1Kzc





Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: e36prick on March 18, 2009, 07:53:42 AM
hey guys. i like this idea and i've looked over basic schematics of the rotor and housing but i was curious. is it the pressure difference or the rotating mass of the rotor that draws the fluid through? is there an actual pump that "pushes" the water through the cylinder? i'm just trying to draw up some ideas but i need to know a few more specifics. any links would help. everyone on here is very bright, any help would be greatly appreciated.

tony.
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: jchapman on March 18, 2009, 11:44:51 AM
I made a hydrosonic pump (200mm x 50mm rotor) from plates of acrylic glued together. It was spun up to 6000rpm before it ran by itself,had to dump water into cavity to stop it.No heat or steam was produced.On 3rd attempt the rotor started to rub on the casing. It was rebuilt using stronger material (fiberglass) but it failed to operate !!!
One day I will try again - good thing I had 4 witness's that also saw it run
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: Nabo00o on June 12, 2009, 07:47:45 PM
@jchapman

You're not jerking everybody around here are you?
If this actually happened I am very interested to hear how you constructed the pump, of course only if you want to share the information. I have also been wanting to build a simple pump which I am pretty sure will run by itself when put up to sufficient speed. It uses the static centrifugal pressure made by the rotation to increase its angular speed.

Hope you try to rebuild it,
Naboo
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: mscoffman on June 13, 2009, 09:18:14 PM
I made a hydrosonic pump (200mm x 50mm rotor) from plates of acrylic glued together. It was spun up to 6000rpm before it ran by itself,had to dump water into cavity to stop it.No heat or steam was produced.On 3rd attempt the rotor started to rub on the casing. It was rebuilt using stronger material (fiberglass) but it failed to operate !!!
One day I will try again - good thing I had 4 witness's that also saw it run

That's interesting, but the material you used for the rotor (acrylic plastic)
is a linked chain hydrocarbon, as well as the fact that it does not have
thermal dimensional stability. I know it makes it easy to machine and
produce a variety of experimental versions, but it won't do for a final version.

It should be relatively easy to take an operable acrylic rotor and reverse
cast a clay/glass version and fire it to harden it, if you need an exact copy.

As I mentioned previously, because a griggs pump will heat water
underunity, it makes it difficult to guarantee under what
conditions overunity energy production will persist, but is the only
thing that will work for the long haul.

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: Omega_0 on June 14, 2009, 07:21:48 PM
I made a hydrosonic pump (200mm x 50mm rotor) from plates of acrylic glued together. It was spun up to 6000rpm before it ran by itself,had to dump water into cavity to stop it.No heat or steam was produced.On 3rd attempt the rotor started to rub on the casing. It was rebuilt using stronger material (fiberglass) but it failed to operate !!!
One day I will try again - good thing I had 4 witness's that also saw it run

LoL, you mean the pump ran by itself without water ? Nor it produced any heat? And still you call it hydrosonic....
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: Omega_0 on June 14, 2009, 07:23:47 PM
I seem to recall an invention being mentioned which makes use of hydrosonics via solid state methodology which was being positioned for the home water heating market.   Hey, if the lowly pistol shrimp can master the finer points of hydrosonic cavitation.....why not we?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eKPrGxB1Kzc

Very interesting...
That shrimp can heat up the water to the temperature of the sun just using some bubbles. Impressive.
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on June 14, 2009, 10:29:39 PM
Very interesting...
That shrimp can heat up the water to the temperature of the sun just using some bubbles. Impressive.

I stopped the video at the precise moment of the bubble imploding into a fusion reaction. it may be that this could indeed be made better using a specialized ultra Sonic cavity that focuses the bubble cavitation to a single implosion point, it would require a radial X, Y, Z focus so the fusion reaction can be continual without loss of the reaction. I could see it working.

Jerry
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: TechStuf on June 15, 2009, 01:11:07 AM
Solid State Shoestring Sonofusion.  Sounds eminently doable.

http://sonofusionjets.com/


TS


P.S. http://coldfusionfuture.com/Sonofusion_nuclear.html
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on June 15, 2009, 02:13:27 AM
Taken from Wiki, interesting.

The snapping shrimp competes with much larger animals, like the Sperm Whale and Beluga Whale, for the title of 'loudest animal in the sea'. The shrimp snaps a specialized claw shut to create a cavitation bubble that generates acoustic pressures of up to 80 kPa at a distance of 4 cm from the claw. The pressure is strong enough to kill small fish.[7] It corresponds to a zero to peak pressure level of 218 decibels relative to one micropascal (dB re 1 μPa), equivalent to a zero to peak source level of 190 dB re 1 μPa at the standard reference distance of 1 m. Au and Banks measured peak to peak source levels between 185 and 190 dB re 1 μPa at 1 m, depending on the size of the claw.[8] Similar values are reported by Ferguson and Cleary.[9] The duration of the click is less than 1 millisecond.

The snap can also produce sonoluminescence from the collapsing cavitation bubble. As it collapses, the cavitation bubble reaches temperatures of over 5,000 K (5,273.15 degree Celsius).[10] A quick comparison: the surface temperature of the sun is estimated to be around 5,778 K. The light is of lower intensity than the light produced by typical sonoluminescence and is not visible to the naked eye. It is most likely a by-product of the shock wave with no biological significance. However, it was the first known instance of an animal producing light by this effect. It has subsequently been discovered that another group of crustaceans, the mantis shrimp, contains species whose club-like forelimbs can strike so quickly and with such force as to induce sonoluminescent cavitation bubbles upon impact.
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: TechStuf on June 15, 2009, 07:39:48 AM

What next!   Oh yeah, this....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zoygy-8PTtU

Truth is stranger than fiction, on so many levels.


TS

Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: onthecuttingedge2005 on June 15, 2009, 06:39:15 PM
The water Hammer produces cavitation bubbles that maybe forming fusion bubbles and or Sono-luminescence which is super heating the steam, only nuclear reactions are said to give out over-unity so there might be some bubble fusion cavitation taking place, they could check for Neutron radiation and excess Helium because if so they might be getting a little exposer.

Jerry
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: TechStuf on June 15, 2009, 09:10:37 PM
Quote
there might be some bubble fusion cavitation taking place, they could check for Neutron radiation and excess Helium because if so they might be getting a little exposer.


Yeah, what he said....


Let's do that!


:D


TS
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: zed on September 09, 2009, 02:52:27 AM
@ Whitebird

Hope this photo answers some of your questions.

@ TomG

How's your project coming along. I'll post a pic of what I'm up too later

Dave

Dave,

I am working on this project right now can you tell me what was the motor power used in the picture KW/HP ?
Also do you have new updates.

Appreciate it.

Z
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: lltfdaniel1 on September 09, 2009, 01:38:52 PM
The water hammer is a cavity effect so it taps zpe as zpe interacts with everything, you can get overunity with it.
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: wings on September 09, 2009, 01:49:15 PM
You can download for free New Energy Technologies magazine here:

http://www.faraday.ru/net.htm

the last numbers 2003, 2004, 2005 contains lot of information about heat cavitation devices

in order to have cavitation the tangential speed must be over 60 m/sec, cavitation depends also from pressure in the pump.

some test:

http://www.fieldlines.com/story/2007/10/3/195821/664
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: jchapman on November 12, 2010, 05:51:09 AM
Having another attempt to get the Hydrosonic Pump working.
Have  a Variable Speed Drive to get it to 6000 rpm and a 500W generator to load it up if it starts to run by itself -also have a water dump value to shut it down if things get out out control JC
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: Ghost on July 30, 2012, 03:03:51 PM
any news on this?
any replicators?
anything???????????????????????????????
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: mscoffman on July 31, 2012, 08:20:16 PM
any news on this?
any replicators?
anything? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

Well, they work. They produce their excess energy because of cavitation LENR.
Because they have a fluid water "core" where the reaction takes place it is difficult
to get these to show any self-running-loop tendencies, but generally just plain water
excess heating.


If you search for the string "nowak" on this web site. You will find information
on the DRJ200 and other Griggs type heating pumps.  Dr. Nowak is difficult
for us to understand because he speaks in Polish. The only thing I would
advise is that Europe uses 50HZ. electric power so it's motors run at a sub-multiples
of 50 RPS while US. uses 60HZ and AC motors there run at sub-multiples of 60RPS.
So optimal cavitation rotor hole spacing will probably change between these two.
One could use gearing to adjust RPM's. Very efficient electric motors are also required
which needs to be in the motor's specification sheet.  It's unfortunate that Dr Nowak
and associates didn't get their message across sooner because what they had is a
valid LENR  utilization pathway, though it shares problems with all fluid core LENR
reactors. Most people are now working on more direct LENR stuff.

See; http://www.e-cat.com (http://www.e-cat.com)

:S:MarkSCoffman
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: FreeEnergy on July 24, 2014, 04:00:31 AM
any news on this?
any replicators?
anything???????????????????????????????
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: Curlyrocks on November 07, 2014, 03:25:50 AM
Hi I'm new to this form and new to the more advanced theory's of over unity power so please be kind.

A few years ago before I took my break on over unity power and off grid living I had heard about the Griggs water pump and was interested in it but had no shop or any where to experiment with one. Things are starting to change on that front though and hopefully I can have something set up soon. For a while I got out of the whole over unity thing cuz of life and such but now am back into it.

I was watching a special on the water crisis affecting much of America right now and part of the world and got me thinking about desalinating water. I remembered the hydrosonic pump would probably be the best way to continuously turn water to steam but was worried about salt build up. When I looked into them the 2nd time I noticed one of their prime selling points was that the device did not scale.

This looks like the perfect device for desalinating sea water and making distilled water all around. Can any one think of anything I might be missing?
Title: Re: Hydrosonic Pump
Post by: mscoffman on November 07, 2014, 05:09:01 PM
Curlyrocks,

I basically agree with you but I have a problem with machining the rotor of a Griggs pump
from a monolithic block of metal. These days that is a fairly difficult and expensive way to
go if you want to manufacture a mechanically balanced rotor. The main thing is that
the exact details of the multiple hole sets are likely to be proprietary and finding the best
configuration is likely to be heuristic meaning that there is no analytic way to optimize a
design.

There may be a way of molding and machining a ceramic rotor that could be
better in the cost department. One additional problem might be the problem of
material wear over the longer term.

On here overunity.com are external specifications for something called  DRJ-200 that was a Griggs
heat pump already optimized by a person named Dr. Nowak. He had personal problems that
left his goal set divided but I do think that the device he described was real but was expensive
because it was not yet mass produced. This is good for finding the efficiency specsifications of
an optimized machine.

A better and a more manufacturable alternative for enthusiasts alternative might be the friction heaters
described on here in it's own thread.

----

On water desalination or clarification for a distillation type outcome - I think that an overunity electrical
production device will supply power for these types of devices widely. But there have been a number of
individual scale water clarification units that can be used in this service that have efficiencies beyond
steam heating distillation units. So you should wait until you have guaranteed OU before attempt to
pursue this.   


:S;MarkSCoffman