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Author Topic: Rodin Theory & Coils  (Read 153393 times)

Offline c0mster

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Re: Rodin Theory & Coils
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2007, 07:35:34 PM »

Offline Rosphere

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Re: Rodin Theory & Coils
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2007, 02:44:48 AM »
No I'm not being silly. http://www.comparestoreprices.co.uk/images/ma/mattel-fisher-price-brilliant-basics-rock-a-stack.jpg

I may have some of those toy rings buried somewhere in the garage.  You can probably get some cheap from a resale shop.

The largest blue toy ring looks about the size and color of the one that Rodin's engineer used.  (The man in the videos said, "I did not make this coil... I am not the electrical engineer... I am the presenter...")

There were larger and smaller sizes available where I had purchased my foam ring.  I selected the ten inch size because it looked like the inside hole would be just large enough to slip my standard half-pound spool-o-mag-wire through, without having first to transfer a measure of wire onto a bobbin of sorts, as would be required with a smaller ring.

I just got home from work.  I am too tired now to trust my measuring and winding.  I will do it tomorrow.  Besides, it looks like I am on my own with the wire size selection.  Because my ring is larger than what we have seen to date, I can probably use a larger gauge wire--say, 24 AWG perhaps?

You know, 2+4 = 6.  So, using 24 AWG wire is like using 6 AWG wire, but only if you chase away enough cats.  And trying to start your car using 24 AWG wire should chase them all away.   :D :(

Offline c0mster

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Re: Rodin Theory & Coils
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2007, 05:07:32 AM »
Ya I should have gave my 2 cents on the wire size sorry , 30g maybe, it kind of looks like 30g or maybe a bit thicker at 28g, I guess with 30g you would get a higher resistance and stronger field but 24 would allow some amps to be hammered in. Glad to see your starting on the coil, keep us posted. I wish I had 8 hands to do more :) but then I would have 3 times more chances to get into trouble.    

C

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Re: Rodin Theory & Coils
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2007, 05:07:32 AM »
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Offline acerzw

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Re: Rodin Theory & Coils
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2007, 02:48:11 PM »
@c0mster

Nice project... if everyone who builds posts pictures etc, I will link to each build post from the index...

@Rosphere

IMHO it is always best to go for what the little kid in you wants! It usually views the universe in a simplistic way without all of the artificial rules that adults create, it is your creative intuition, give the little fella a chance and go with the AWG 22... (remember I am not an engineer, so I tend to go for things for reasons like those above, rather than conventional reasons, because those working with conventional methodology limit themselves in this way... taking oneself too seriously is a sure way to stagnation of the soul and the death of creativity! Children are naturally creative, Scientists tend to strangle theirs...)

I will find an example of Rodin maths and a problem that it solves which conventional maths cannot... will take a while to find and will post on it at a later time...

@all

I am going to examine the basic power tap idea for the vortex, and get into research on the subject... I have a suspicion that JNaudins implementation of the vortex power tap may have been doubly flawed, first because it used a ferrite rod (and thus suffers from magnetic saturation), but also because that the basic design was based on an incorrect assumption about the vortex... just a suspicion, so will post more if I think it is valid...

It occurs to me while I am writing this that the central vortex power take off rod, might give off longitudinal waves that could be tapped into by winding a simple coil of wire around the bottom of the rod,  just far enough down it to be outside of the field... perhaps even one on other end, or a continuous one along the entire length of the rod? What do you think?

In general, it is going to take some time to formulate and understand how the application of Rodin's patterns relate to each specific element of the coil... he has done a lot of the work for us but I am sure there is an awful lot more to be learnt which will guide the way.

I can see that a good start is being made on building and experimenting  :)

Acerzw
« Last Edit: November 03, 2007, 04:06:58 PM by acerzw »

Offline ahchoooo

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Re: Rodin Theory & Coils
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2007, 04:35:58 PM »
Ya I should have gave my 2 cents on the wire size sorry , 30g maybe, it kind of looks like 30g or maybe a bit thicker at 28g, I guess with 30g you would get a higher resistance and stronger field but 24 would allow some amps to be hammered in. Glad to see your starting on the coil, keep us posted. I wish I had 8 hands to do more :) but then I would have 3 times more chances to get into trouble.    

C

I think the coil has only the number of turns indicated in his drawing. He also recommended to wrap the toroid with a flat cable instead of a wire.

Ahchoooo

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Re: Rodin Theory & Coils
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2007, 04:35:58 PM »
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Offline Rosphere

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Re: Rodin Theory & Coils
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2007, 06:21:15 PM »
Well, I did some measuring and a little winding today.  I tried to show my methods in the pictures here; "... worth a thousand words," they say.

My mid-store-isle decision to get the ten inch decorative foam ring, eyeballing the probable hole size based on both my memory of the ratio of the hole in the images and my memory of the size of my wire spool, was correct.  The spool fits through the center, (albeit only axially,) with just enough clearance to drop the spool through the hole for each and every wind.

This is by far the hardest coil to wind; it is damn near a two man job.  I am pleased with my resistor-spacers, but I am not pleased with my windings: they seem too loose.  The wire tends to slide around on the foam a bit.  I have stopped winding until I can acquire some bee's wax, (as recommended by Bob Boyce for coil wrapping in general.)

I have gone around a half a dozen or so cycles of twelve winds.  The spool needs to be unwound a bit, dropped through the hole, twist out any loops to avoid a wire kink, and wound around the slippery foam, held against its neighbor, and repeat for every turn.

Half a dozen cycles of 28 AWG has only gotten me about 10%, at most, of the way through the first, of two, windings.  Let's see:
12 wraps X 6 cycles so far X 10 ten-percents X 2 wires = me dropping that spool through the hole over 1,440 times.  If it takes me about 8 seconds for each wrap it will take over 11,520 seconds, or about three and a half hours worth of fussy wire wrapping.

Since I am only about 20% into the total wind, at most, and I will be making better windings using bee's wax later on, I will unwrap what I have done so far.  I will take the opportunity to get some length measurements per each 12-wrap cycle so that I will have some idea about the wire lengths used in a completed coil on this decorative foam ring. :P

Offline c0mster

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Re: Rodin Theory & Coils
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2007, 08:45:50 PM »
Great job Rosphere. It looks like wrapping these coils is going to be a real challenge, and we thought the TPU was hard LOL.

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Re: Rodin Theory & Coils
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2007, 08:45:50 PM »
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Offline supersam

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Re: Rodin Theory & Coils
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2007, 10:07:31 PM »
@rosphere,

just a quick stupid question and then an observation, that you can probably comment on.  why did you start with 36 points?  it has been my observation that the whole rodin toroid should be about nine points.  three of which are not actually physically connected to the other six.  IMHO, should we not consider wraping on a nine point toroid, with the pattern actually going from points 1-2-4-8-7-5?  and then use a second winding for the 3-6-9?  i know that this a little asymetrical when trying to conceptualize how to wind the coil, however would this not give us a physical pathway to send a pulse of any kind of sine wave, through a heterodyne pattern.  thus leading us to the unconnected perpendicular points that intersect on the 3-6-9?  will this possibly give us the right vector to receive any transverse power?

just a stupid question, and an observation, or was that maybe more, sorry guys.

lol
sam

ps: i did like you, i am sure, count the number of coils on the coil that marko held up as an example of a rodin coil, in the videos. there were twelve. why?  it doesn't seem to jive.  i have also read that noone has built a true or perfect rodin coil.

Offline Rosphere

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Re: Rodin Theory & Coils
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2007, 01:55:19 AM »
@rosphere,
why did you start with 36 points?

See image from video...

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Re: Rodin Theory & Coils
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2007, 01:55:19 AM »
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Offline Rosphere

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Re: Rodin Theory & Coils
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2007, 02:00:15 AM »
Besides, 36 = 3+6 = 9; no problem.  ;)

Offline supersam

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Re: Rodin Theory & Coils
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2007, 03:23:05 AM »
@roshpere,

yea i do see a problem, possibly, maybe, kinda.  if you start trying to chase that diagram following the 124875 there dosn't seem to be any symetry either.  am i imagining this or, can you help me with understading this.  no disrespect intended.  i am just trying to find the right way also. just wondering. i know otto has said he has something similar to a rodin coil, so maybe, even if it was only inspired by rodins work and totally new, it has a magnetic field that he has never seen.  i am just wondering if the examples that were in the video are actually rodin coils.

i am having alot of trouble getting my mind around, how the drawing you showed in your last slide works.  i saw it on the vids, but, i still can't figure out how it fits the big picture.  if you know what i mean.  i'm sure marko, could explain it and make perfect sence of it real quick, but i am a little thick.  any help you can give, other than 3+6=9, would be appreciated, i am sure by all.

lol
sam

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Re: Rodin Theory & Coils
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2007, 03:23:05 AM »
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Offline Rosphere

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Re: Rodin Theory & Coils
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2007, 04:02:18 PM »
@roshpere,

yea i do see a problem, possibly, maybe, kinda...

...any help you can give, other than 3+6=9, would be appreciated, i am sure by all.

lol
sam

@supersam,

Sorry, man, I can not connect the dots myself.  Play with a few spreadsheets.  I found that this 'repeating inverse sequence relationship' happens with numbers other than nine as well.  Were we to have been born with six digits per hand then I suppose that the number eleven would be all the rage.

The man in the video attempting to connect the number nine to answer the meaning of life, the universe, and everything is not the same man that made the coil; he says this one of the early video sequences.

When I wrote that, 36 = 3+6 = 9, I was only serious.  So far, this is the only type of connection that I can see.  (Keep in mind that I lack the intelligence to pick up what SM has put down.)  This is why I asked acerzw if he could show one example of a maths complexity that simplifies using Rodin maths; he seems to have a better insight into this aspect than me.

My current interest lies in replicating this coil configuration and then, "massaging it," with sine waves of various frequencies to see if I can find this magnetic vortex thingy.  If I can create it and detect it then I will be more interested in any connections existing between the coil and the new maths theory.

Offline Rosphere

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Re: Rodin Theory & Coils
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2007, 04:34:54 PM »
Coil Winding Update:  I backed off the 28 AWG wire, (and my intention to measure one closed path of wire.  I will find my yardstick if I get some results.)

I found, 'bol-wax,' instead of bee's wax and I picked-up some map pins while I was out, (to replace the resistors as dimensional placeholders.)

I used a fresh twenty-dollar, half-pound, spool of 24 AWG mag-wire.  I looped it around two fingers a few times for lead wire, then once around a green pin to anchor it for winding.

The light coating of wax that I placed on the ring before winding seems to help align the adjacent wires, allows them to be pulled tight, and provides a small amount of tackiness that helps keep past winds from pulling loose and slipping out of place.  Also, add a bit more wax when the winding is complete and any wires crossing over the foam form can be easily flattened out with a fingernail.

But, let me tell you, the feeling is like planting flowers; you just can not do it and stay clean.  Wax gets all over your hands, your working surface, and your clothes if you are not careful.  (I was not, but I had my old sweat pants on--the ones with the paint stains.)  It feels slick and sticky at the same time.  It gets all over your hands and it makes you feel like you need to shower right away.

I used the whole spool of wire and only covered slightly over a third of the surface.  So, if I do not want to buy another spool, I could finish with 22 AWG wire and have a, "Frankincoil?"

I have to take the skinheads bowling now.  More later.
Later that evening...

I count 38 wraps of 24 AWG mag-wire.  That's 456 trips through the center of the ring for the spool.

I considered cutting it in half and using it as-is.  I decided, instead, to sink another twenty bucks into another half-pound of 24 AWG mag-wire.  I hope to acquire another spool tomorrow.

I am also considering picking up two, triple-series-AA-battery-holders, and six AA batteries to drive my function generator with more currant than I once did with a voltage-splitter-resistor-pair off a 9V.

But I am not powering up anything until I wind the second spool-o-wire.  :P

« Last Edit: November 05, 2007, 02:21:39 AM by Rosphere »

Offline acerzw

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Re: Rodin Theory & Coils
« Reply #43 on: November 06, 2007, 01:54:56 AM »
@Rosphere

That coil is a work of art! Can't wait to hear how it works!

BTW what film is your avatar taken from?

Acerzw

Offline Rosphere

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Re: Rodin Theory & Coils
« Reply #44 on: November 06, 2007, 01:56:38 AM »
I now have another half-pound spool of 24 AWG mag-wire.

I know what section I wish to fill.  I know which direction I wish to fill that section.  The only thing that stumps me now is which way to wind the wire: with the flow of the fist section, or against it.

Up until now I had assumed that I would wind in the same direction as the first coil, as if I had just kept winding without a break between the two coils.  Now, I have the sudden urge to wind in the opposite direction.

Do not be confused by the geometry; I will continue the make the copper "spokes" grow fatter in the same fashion.  The direction the wires are wound, as compared to the first section of winding, will be unnoticed by humans, not electrons.  In other words, if I were to ground the two coils where they meet at one end, then the electrons moving in one coil will start off going up one side of the decorative foam ring while the electron moving in the other coil will start off going down.

It probably makes no difference which way I wind.  I can always switch the wire leads on one coil,... right?

Maybe not.  Maybe it does make a difference.  ???

Rosphere--inclined to unwind

 

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