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Author Topic: Ward's Build of Bob Boyce's TPU  (Read 57980 times)

Bob Boyce

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Re: Ward's Build of Bob Boyce's TPU
« Reply #45 on: December 15, 2007, 04:44:11 AM »
I am in the TN/GA/NC tristate region, not Colorado. Too bad you're so far away, as one thing I have a lot of is PCs. I bought a lot of ex-military servers by the pallet load from US Govt auctions. Not really fast, as compared to more modern PCs, but many of them are EMP hardened ;-)

Wifey is doing better thank you, and yes, she is back home.

I am still having a heck of a time with getting crappy test equipment from ebay that is being advertised as better than it is. My most recent aquisitions, a pair of Wavetek 859, look as though they were recovered boat anchors, rusted and corroded inside and out, yet they sold at a premium because one was advertised as working. They were photographed front view, which hid the rust on the backs and bottoms of the cases. The "working" one lights up but nothing else works. Opened up and found boards missing in the "working" unit, and the second parts unit was almost totally gutted inside. Front panel from the "working" unit has a dead LED segment - and dead keypad, parts unit entire display dead except for one digit that lights when tested - and dead keypad. Both front panels were tested on a working Wavetek 859 that I bought a while back that arrived damaged.

Bob

Earl

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Ward's Build of Bob Boyce's TPU
« Reply #46 on: December 16, 2007, 02:54:11 PM »
Bob,

one way of combating fraud on ebay is to always ask question via the ebay system.  Keep any correspondence via ebay, never switch to email.  If the seller doesn't answer your precise questions, don't bid.

If the seller replies via ebay that the equipment is in good condition, pay via paypal so if he lies, you can use the ebay / paypal system to litigate and even have the sale canceled at the buyers expense.  Paypal will immediately debit the sellers account for the full amount until the dispute is settled.

It is up to you and your experience to formulate a standard set of questions, which can be added to with specific questions.  If there are so many dishonest ebay sellers, never bid on anything until your questions have been satisfactory answered.

Earl

Edit:  there are time limits involved ebay disputes, so don't wait longer than 2 weeks of discussions with the seller via ebay's mail system, until you escalate to an ebay dispute.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2007, 12:24:46 PM by Earl »

HumblePie

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Re: Ward's Build of Bob Boyce's TPU
« Reply #47 on: December 24, 2007, 10:48:13 AM »
@All,

I got PALasm working in Vista with DOSbox free download here:  http://www.dosbox.com/download.php?main=1&begaming_website_session=7cf298a28f5103464d41bdfb7a78a9a9

It creates a virtual C drive which is yourDOSdirectory.  Like this it starts, enter z:> mount c c:\palasm   then enter c: to switch to it.  In my c:\palasm directory, I place this p.bat file:

path c:\exe (because the parent directory 'palasm' is now mounted as virtual c:)
set palasm=c:\ (instead of c:\palasm\exe)
palasm.exe

The bat file is because I can not get autoexec.bat to be read unless Admin Mode, which won't support an initial full screen shot that comes up briefly.  Yes I know the application should not be at the root, but this program expects it there and it is too old to fight with.

Below are the new GAL's with individual frequency shutoffs.  421x4 is positive pulse, 421n4 is negative pulse polarity GAL.  (http://)

I tried firing up my toroid briefly last week without trying to adjust Phase.  No lamps lit.  Have been too busy to try again since (since these GAL's were not done!), but I am dwelling on my HVPS loading down.  Series resistance of 22M Ohms to Gnd leaks only 13uA at 280VDC.  I used the same Film 1.5uF 1000V Blocking Cap as the HVPS Cap uses... no leaks.  But when hooked to Secondary loaded down the HVPS.  I will double verify what I saw soon... and post scope shots of the bifilar speaker wire spiral pickup I use with other lead floating.  I still am not sure about this pickup configuration.  I heard it should have a small resistor across the leads, but that shorts the signal received.  A larger one just attenuates the signal.  I will post Scope shots of this later as promised.

Oh ya, I did try many values of series resistance on the bench, not just Earl's suggested 22M.  It so happens 22M Ohm was the only value bigger than 5M I could get up through 100M without having some shipped.

(http://)   Here is rough layout of a 2 GAL card with envisioned seperate CLK's and no drivers.  6 Channels and 4 power lines exit via stackable header posts that will go down to a female header to the PWM-Driver card.  I just used the .1" snap to grid to save time trying to see what DIP's could fit.  I know why you SMD guys are there, but DIP's are more hobby friendly to average Joe so I pursue this avenue.  Wire wrap is so slow for me to do.  Time is more than money.  I think I will draw up some schematics and layouts and start ordering cards or etching them.  First to test out the wire-wrapped card I already have ASAP.

Ward
« Last Edit: December 24, 2007, 11:22:01 AM by HumblePie »

Earl

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Ward's Build of Bob Boyce's TPU
« Reply #48 on: December 25, 2007, 12:50:50 PM »
@Ward,
5 Megohm could be high enough to prevent RE output power leakage, maybe even 1 Meg?
In fact, once things are working it would be interesting to know over what range this R could be varied.

Earl

weri812

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Re: Ward's Build of Bob Boyce's TPU
« Reply #49 on: December 25, 2007, 02:19:48 PM »
hello!!!!  Ward  @ All

MERRY CHRISTMAS  TO ALLLLLLLLL.


Looks real good  keep up the good work

love and prayers to all  and to all a good  day and nite


wer   :D ;D :D ;D :D ;D

HumblePie

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Re: Ward's Build of Bob Boyce's TPU
« Reply #50 on: December 31, 2007, 10:34:03 AM »
@All,

OK I saw an MIT video about nonintuitive thinking involving Kirchoff's Law.  I need to understand why these voltages do not add up.  Nothing is leaking.  The 22M resistor has no V drop across it.  The Secondary has no V drop across it.  I am puttung HV into CW end of Secondary, diagram below is drawn incorrectly that way.

I was using the pickup coil to test using the T650-52 Secondary then various Primaries as the inductor in my 9V Battery HVPS.  I use the pickup with other lead floating.  I see reflections after the BEMF pulse at lower freq's only happen when duty cycle is < 50%, and that these are from reflections where pulse from Primary hits end of Secondary underneath and bounces around.  If Secondary shorted, all these extra humps vanish.  The positive going PWM stops the humps from continuing, and the HVPS V out snapping up to higher voltages is the event of dropping a hump into the positive going PWM region.  The BEMF pulse snaps up much higher as each hum is pushed to the right on the Scope.  It seems like the time spacing of these reflections at ends of Secondary might reveal pulse velocity in the ring.

When I was driving closed-ended 1 of 6 Prim's at 10 to 12 O Clock position (segment #6), I see pickup shows amplification at each segment going CCW like an LMD transmisison line kind of.  When I drive Prim #3 only, CCW amplifies in phase, CW amplifies 180 out of phase and amplitudes are smaller.  By 180 out of phase, I mean I see the pulses from the pickup point down Vs up as before.  When I short the Secondary out, other side of ring same polarity pulses.

When driving Prime #3 If I apply Gnd (low impedance) to CW end of Secondary, other side of ring looks same as driven side.  If Gnd applied to CCW end of Secondary, boosts amplitude of other side of ring (6 to 12 O Clock) and makes driven side also assume opposite pulse polarity (what I am calling phase incorrectly).

When I use other inductors as the HVPS I see BEMF pulse as a single pulse.  When I drive a Prim closed-emded with this HVPS, I see a triple-headed pulse.  Not when I drive the Secondary.  Stays triple-headed when Secondary is shorted out.

The scope shot shows < 50% d-cycle, and > 50% d-c shifthing the humps off to the right.  What remains after the BEMF pulse in the Red trace is ringing from the much larger BEMF.

I got 600V p-p standing waves from Prim #1 when I drove Prim #6.  The shocks feel strange.  I did not expect such voltages from only one freq into one Prim using 9V drive with no effort to drive fast transitions at all.  I was just trying to see the attributes of closed ended drive since open ended seemed so lackluster at first try.

I will try tuning open-ended tomorrow night.  If anyone can shed light on the voltage divider I see, please fill me in.  Also the link to MIT Professor explaining how this works again would be nice.  I have it somewhere in my notes.

Ward
« Last Edit: December 31, 2007, 06:19:11 PM by HumblePie »

HumblePie

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Re: Ward's Build of Bob Boyce's TPU
« Reply #51 on: January 02, 2008, 04:35:46 PM »
@All,

Here is that MIT 2 part video showing Faraday, not Kirchoff's Law always holds true.  I'm still trying to put this info in terms of DCHV I am applying Vs a pulse.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqjl-qRy71w (Part 1)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1bUWcy8HwpM (Part 2)

I spend many hours playing with DDS20 open-ended drive of a single Prim on my T650-52.  This was using 9V with MIC4427's Vs 15V just to see how it compares to the closed ended drive tests I did using my 9V Battery HVPS, letting Prim' be the inductor in this circuit.  I will post Scope shots later.

I see that the entire square wave applied is visible at the driven end of the Prim' tested, and that only the onther end can be made to resonate, maybe because driven end is forced so with driving signal.  The resonance is not perfect Sine wave, it more resembles triangle wave.  I think I see nodes too. 

At 3.15MHz, I see that other end (CW end) of single driven Prim resonates and so does the CW end of the Prime 180 degrees across the toroid.  Two Nodes?

At 5.4MHz, I see CW end of driven Prim resonates, and so does CW end of every other Prim.  Three Nodes?

In the Long'l Wave Research thread, the Dr's conclusions about solenoid coil's two resonant modes seems backwards to me.  It seems rather that the higher freq' resonance with shorter wave length must be the Quarter wavelength mode (3 quarters it seems)... and that the lower frequency of resonance must be Half wavelength mode per the longer wavelength.

I can not seem to find a single Quarter wavelength node yet, but I am still looking at  it.  I used a bean can as a Faraday Cage to see what would penetrate shielding.  I saw unexpected total blocking of the 5.4MHz signal.  No Longitudinal resonance.  At lower freq's, I see more clearly that the fast switching RE spikes always penetrate the shielding.  So I sweep 0 through 20MHz looking for Longitudinal resonance, but find none.  If I missed it, it is the resonance made by the RE spikes from Tr & Tf's.  This signal is so small Vs TEM signal.  Through the grounded can, I see RE peaks at 4.31MHz, 4.77Mhz, 6.45MHz, 8.45MHz.  Sinusoidal for sure, but these are clearly a mix of two frequencies and that appears to hinder a single sine wave from forming.

At first impressions, open-ended drive is nothing like closed ended drive.  How Bob sees no real difference between the two is a mystery still. 

It seems like I am going to need very high drive voltage and/or faster switching if I will achieve any effect at all.  Closed ended drive generates much higher voltages.

So while looking for the MIT video links, I found many references I'm my notes about "Flux cancellation", and I still do not see this in Bob's design... unless coils are to be driven from both ends... or as Jason does with his little green TPU on Youtube, that appears to drive two counterwound coils simultaneously.     Otto's Mobious configuration achieves this.     

Marco mentions in TP600 thread reply #25 that:  "BEMF can be captured with diodes and fed back into same bifilar coil, only other winding, so it cancels itself out... already tried this and can also capture BEMF in Capacitors."  OK so I can use it to keep electronics powered also if desired.   Bob Renip's Scope Shots of Clean Kicks" also shows a BEMF collection and rerouting of it to help drive next coil.

I have heard that we do not want bifilar, but others are using it... maybe not in Bob's design though.  I hear many things opposite of what they really are... some of this with me is just Dyslexia, some of it.  How will this unit work without flux cancellation?

Ward

Earl

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Ward's Build of Bob Boyce's TPU
« Reply #52 on: January 07, 2008, 09:56:20 PM »
@All,
[snip]
 I will post Scope shots later.
[snip]
Ward

Ward, please include test setups and measurement points so that the scope shots make sense.

Keep at it.  There is no replacement for scratching your head nor a hot soldering iron.
We don't tackle easy things in this shop.

Earl

Earl

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Ward's Build of Bob Boyce's TPU
« Reply #53 on: January 07, 2008, 10:12:49 PM »
Ward,

the red/yellow versus blue/purple duty cycle variation is not what I would expect.
Try fine tuning the repetition rate as well as duty cycle change to see what difference small variations in repetition rate do to the waveform.

The three peak waveform is difficult to explain from the point of view of BEMF with exponential decay.  Each peak would have successively lower amplitude.  It looks like at least two frequencies are mixing together.

All you have to do still is to have each peak grow in amplitude.

Earl

Bob Boyce

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Re: Ward's Build of Bob Boyce's TPU
« Reply #54 on: January 09, 2008, 02:06:59 PM »
@All,
<snip>
At first impressions, open-ended drive is nothing like closed ended drive.  How Bob sees no real difference between the two is a mystery still.  It seems like I am going to need very high drive voltage and/or faster switching if I will achieve any effect at all.  Closed ended drive generates much higher voltages.

So while looking for the MIT video links, I found many references I'm my notes about "Flux cancellation", and I still do not see this in Bob's design... unless coils are to be driven from both ends... or as Jason does with his little green TPU on Youtube, that appears to drive two counterwound coils simultaneously.     Otto's Mobious configuration achieves this.     

Marco mentions in TP600 thread reply #25 that:  "BEMF can be captured with diodes and fed back into same bifilar coil, only other winding, so it cancels itself out... already tried this and can also capture BEMF in Capacitors."  OK so I can use it to keep electronics powered also if desired.   Bob Renip's Scope Shots of Clean Kicks" also shows a BEMF collection and rerouting of it to help drive next coil.

I have heard that we do not want bifilar, but others are using it... maybe not in Bob's design though.  I hear many things opposite of what they really are... some of this with me is just Dyslexia, some of it.  How will this unit work without flux cancellation?

Ward

Very good experimentation Ward. Good to see you are noting some of the oddities in multiphase coils on a single toroidal core. It looks like you have also noted that the responses are directional in relation to drive coil polarity and direction of rotation. It is the direction of wind and direction of applied drive pulses that cause this as the shock wave propagates down each primary when pulsed. And yes, the intent of the 2 sets of 3 phase primaries is so that you can drive the 180 degree opposing primaries in phased pairs for even more result. Sort of like a multi-pole 3 phase motor.

I never said that driving open ended was the same as closed loop. All I said was that the same effects could be observed, but obviously the drive requirement method for open ended is much different. Open ended drive still requires very vast transitions, but applied potential (voltage) must be a lot higher to get the same effect. Whereas closed loop works at much lower voltages, but is more critical to pulse width if power waste is to be kept to a minimum. Transition times are key in both drive modes, as it is the transition that creates the desired shock wave that will appear on other windings as "kicks".

What you will want to do it to adjust the timing of the applied pulses so that these "kicks" become additive. You will find this occurs in multiple points with varying numbers of nodes as timing interval is decreased (apparent frequency increased). When you add the other subharmonic drive channels, you will begin to see patterns develop in the common output as viewed on your pickup probe. You will not get the same effect from a single pulse source.

Bob

HumblePie

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Re: Ward's Build of Bob Boyce's TPU
« Reply #55 on: January 13, 2008, 10:19:03 PM »
@Earl & Bob, & All,

Sorry for the progress slow down.  I've been freaking out.  I am a scattered mind, but the fragments replay constantly and build into bigger facts and understandings and things I must answer for myself.  This is deep with distraction.  I've spent more time worrying about which to do than trying each to see what is what.  I am sorry I am so slow to get RMF.

I promised more Scope shots of the pickup and I will deliver, however I have little time to do side tasks that are not related to getting RMF.  I noticed the 'interval' acts like frequency.  I was slow to adsorb what I saw.  At lower freq's, I saw 49% duty cycle have these hump / reflections off Secondary ends unless I shorted Sec'.  At 51% duty, they vanished.  At higher freq's they came back to >50% d-cycle.  I will document better next Scope shots. 

I seem able to make only 25nS pulse widths when I tested Dirac's Delta Function high pass with a Tektronix 465 100MHz Scope with 100MHz 10X probes.  Same setup now shows me 50nS width with OWON 25MHz with 60MHz 10X probes.  Back then, I did side by side HCT Vs ACT and saw that HCT hit Vcc, ACT hit only 3V.  I retried all last night and verified that the MIC4427 input high thrshold is 2.60V and ACT seems able.  However, I see that the high-pass filtered spike HATES decouple Caps at all on the MIC4427.  Changes perfect spike shape to spike with shelf on back end.  Yes I need to show Scope shots.  I will next post.

Why was I distracted with this?  High-pass pulses are the only clean pulses I have been able to make.  My square waves ring from fast switching just as they did on critically fast ECL PCB's I once worked on.  Speed = ring.  The high-pass need only stand up to high voltage to be better. 

My Prim's are 5.655 m long and I hear loud and clear that pulse should cease before it reaches end of the Prim.  Open-ended, I see voltage applied yields non-linear results.  More in yields much more out.  I test high-pass on MIC 15V output next then try to tune open-ended agian with cleaner pulses so that the Longitudinal component may at least be made to resonate. 

Now I see what the very fast and strong Diodes are for.  These would protect the high-pass from standing waves.

It seems that the complex ringing impedes the Longitudinal sinusoid from forming fully with shielded pickup.

This powder toroid 4/2/1x recipe may not be ideal, but it serves a purpose I know. 

About the HV Bias.  I need to test more, but it seems that DC produces no voltage gradient and that is what is strange in the static voltage divider.  A changing voltage may be required.  Modulated.  Like my handy SM-10 1000V Power Supplies can do with their 0 to +5V input controlling 0 to 1000V VDC out.  Don't know frequency response yet, but I hope for 60Hz!  However, taking Secondary out with just HVPS Cap resistance, and blocking Cap, I have to short resistance to get Blocking Cap to charge, then when I pull short, they never equalize.  Weird.  Kirchoff again?  Will post data later.

Flux cancellation.  Phase cancellation.  At lower resonance band, 2 nodes, 1/4 wavelengths assumed, I am not sure.  If so toroid is acting as if circumference is way bigger than it is.  2.3GHz wave fits circumference.  One freq, open-ended is FM jammer in 98MHz band.  Strange.  If I search the jammed freq's in FM from 3MH drive one Prim, I am sure there is learning to be done. 

The pulse width interval is the active portion of pulse and it seems like it acts as its own faster frequency / shorter wave length.

Ward
« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 12:56:14 AM by HumblePie »

HumblePie

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Re: Ward's Build of Bob Boyce's TPU
« Reply #56 on: January 16, 2008, 01:33:56 AM »
@All,

I know why SM likes tubes now.  The Longitudinal resonance demands this.  Offering the Dirac Delta Function impulse to a FET does not work per Gate to Source Capacitance is perfect pathway to Gnd.  Nothing reveals how worthless IRF840 FET's are than this test did.  IRF820 is the better choice.  I could not even see the TEM resonance I had proven before.

Ward
« Last Edit: January 23, 2008, 12:53:14 AM by HumblePie »

HumblePie

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Re: Ward's Build of Bob Boyce's TPU
« Reply #57 on: January 23, 2008, 07:02:40 PM »
@All,

Ward sees the light.  Still praying and cleansing ha ha.  Really.

All that seeks truth comes from GOD.   That does not mean it is STILL GOOD!  Remember that.  If you read the New Testement, just a little, you will find instructions YOU are seeking for your life path.  This toroid study is not so important I now believe.  These New Testement instructions were meant for YOU! 

Ya YOU!  Do not evaluate with haste.  EVERYTHING is not as it seems with GOD.  There is none higher than GOD Almighty, Jesus Christ the Lord Our Savior.  If GOD wants me to study this stuff, GOD will make me understand that.

God Blesses, Jesus Saves!  Remember that.   :)  So does Bruce ha ha  ???


Ward

Bruce_TPU

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Re: Ward's Build of Bob Boyce's TPU
« Reply #58 on: January 24, 2008, 01:50:27 AM »
@All,

Ward sees the light.  Still praying and cleansing ha ha.  Really.

All that seeks truth comes from GOD.   That does not mean it is STILL GOOD!  Remember that.  If you read the New Testement, just a little, you will find instructions YOU are seeking for your life path.  This toroid study is not so important I now believe.  These New Testement instructions were meant for YOU! 

Ya YOU!  Do not evaluate with haste.  EVERYTHING is not as it seems with GOD.  There is none higher than GOD Almighty, Jesus Christ the Lord Our Savior.  If GOD wants me to study this stuff, GOD will make me understand that.

God Blesses, Jesus Saves!  Remember that.   :)  So does Bruce ha ha  ???


Ward

Congratulations Ward, and welcome to the most exciting ride of your life!  Jason and I are very, very happy for you.   ;D

It is indeed life changing and something to be very excited about.  "All things become new.." 
(Psalm 150:6)

I made the same decision to serve the Lord Jesus, just over 25 years ago.  He will never let you down, and remains faithful, even when we are faithless.  Never substitute knowing him, for the religions of men (of which there are many).  Read his Word a bit every day and ask him for guidance.

@ All

I was going to send this as a PM, but I thought perhaps someone reading this could also use a little bit of encouragement.   ;)

Alright, back to firing up the BB coil...Where's Eldarion? .... LOL   ;) :D ;D

Cheers,

Bruce

eldarion

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Re: Ward's Build of Bob Boyce's TPU
« Reply #59 on: January 24, 2008, 03:57:39 AM »
I'm here!  ;D

Bruce and Ward, I do appreciate knowing I am among other believers; seems like we are a bit few and far between these days. ;)  Thank you for the encouragement.

Now back to the Boyce system: :D

As Bruce is aware, I have already fixed the timing issue with my controller, to no avail.  I have not been idle, however!

Now I can fire up the magnetic bias very efficiently and to any level I want, thanks to a new switching power regulator that I recently built.  It is extremely voltage-stable, and can handle up to 3 amps at any voltage from 0.6 to the supply voltage--perfect for the magnetic bias coil.

I am in the process of rewiring the coil so that it only has three primaries.  No matter what I do, I cannot bring the pulse rise/fall time to anything less than about 20ns, so my only other option was to increase the electrical length of the primaries.  I do not believe this to be a issue; 6 primaries was a bit of an experiment to begin with, and we really need a larger core for more than 3 primaries to become practical.  (It can be done, but would require $$$$ for custom MOSFET drivers that can switch in under 5ns and source/sink more than 9A of current, not to mention the RF MOSFETs, maybe even GaSFETs, and all the associated PCBs, GHz wiring, etc.)  At least this is my current take on it, time will tell if I am correct.

A quick question: Which side of the primary should I be connecting the MOSFET switches to, the clockwise end or the counterclockwise end (viewed from the top)?  I am thinking the clockwise end should be connected to the MOSFET and the counterclockwise end should be connected to the DC power supply, allowing the pulse's wavefront to travel counterclockwise down the primary, but I am not sure on this.  Since I have it all apart now, I want to connect it back up properly! ;) ::)

Eldarion