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Gravity powered devices => Gravity powered devices => Topic started by: AB Hammer on October 21, 2007, 01:41:11 AM

Title: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: AB Hammer on October 21, 2007, 01:41:11 AM
Greetings all

As promised the drawing of what I believe is Bessler's 12ft wheel. Take a look and remember all what was said, moving both ways, scraiching noises, heavy hitting, cylindrical weights and covered 1 end, but the sound of a spring when replaced and it fits plate 137, which I believe was Bessler's best drawn clue.

1 down I believe, and 3 other types to go. For I believe that all 4 wheels where different designs.

Yes! this wheel will work. (No doughts) at about 20 rounds a minute. I am also building a 1/3 scale model that I will post by Christmas.

I like calling the effect a disk shooter. and since it is under a spring it also catches the disk as well. I did a test of the shooter and it shot a disk across the room.

I hope you like it.
Alan
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: pese on October 21, 2007, 05:54:20 PM
possible the number 7  (clockwise)
the weight must sit on the other side ?

but the number 1 (is right , but hey bive additional weight to
the movement of the wheel (in clockwise sens)
G:Pese
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: Joh70 on October 21, 2007, 07:55:59 PM
don't like the title for a wheel even not build.
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: AB Hammer on October 21, 2007, 09:59:29 PM
pese

 The number 7 is building up energy to launch but won't have it till the top weight is in position to help the flip.

Joh70

 Sorry but I tend to name things to fit there best description's, and Bessler need to get his long over due proper credit. I have other machines that will work a lot better with more power, that I will keep for my patents.
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: Prophmaji on October 22, 2007, 02:30:55 AM
took me a second, there. The weights are much heavier than the disks, thus they are shot across. The weights are symetrically located, thus rotation is not an issue, concerning balance.

Simple.

I like it.

Build, and test and post as a video...as soon as possible. Neat.
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: Pirate88179 on October 22, 2007, 05:52:09 AM
Allan:

Nice job!  Build it and keep us posted.  Best of luck to you.

Bill
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: FreeEnergy on October 22, 2007, 08:55:33 AM
i kind of see how it works...any more drawings?
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: AB Hammer on October 23, 2007, 06:28:58 PM
I posted this on Bessler's wheel forum.

I just had a thought on the 11.15 ft wheel at Meiseburg. looking at the drawings pendulum and asking. Do you think the pendulum is an activator, a regulator, may be both, or even just something to show movement to count the speed?
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: armagdn03 on October 23, 2007, 06:40:27 PM
I love your enthusiasm and hard work. Unfortunately this is not my area, and I am having a hard time visualizing operation.

Would you be so kind as to give us a walkthrough?
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: hansvonlieven on October 23, 2007, 09:59:55 PM
G'day Alan and all,

Regards the wheel at Merseburg, and incidentally the wheel at Weissenstein which shows a similar arrangement I would like to say the following.

(http://www.besslerwheel.com/images/Merseburg_wheel2.jpg)

If you have a look at the drawing you will notice that on the left hand side it shows the same wheel shown from the side. There are actually two pendula involved, one in front of the wheel, one behind the hammer mill the wheel is driving. Both are driven by the main shaft without any other connection to the machine shown.

The same arrangement is here at the Weissenstein wheel.

(http://www.keelytech.com/overunity/weissenstein.jpg)

I have used the Weissenstein illustration for my analysis as it is a better depiction of the principle and a clearer scan of Bessler's original drawing (courtesy University of Goettingen). Only the colour and my comment regarding the centre of gravity have been added, otherwise the picture is original.

A closer look at the pendulum reveals that in reality it is not a pendulum at all. The two counter weights at the top shift the centre of gravity of the device very close to the fulcrum. This arrangement virtually cancels any pendulum effect. So what is it and why is it there?

It is my assessment that it is a very sensitive indicator of the balance of the entire device at any given point.

Like this:

(http://www.keelytech.com/overunity/balance.jpg)

Can you see the parallels?

So what was Bessler doing there? The answer is as simple as it is obvious.

Bessler used the device to set and adjust his weights inside the wheel during construction! After the wheel was built there was no further need for it and in fact in some of Bessler's designs he dispensed with it altogether though it is my guess he would have still used it during construction. A further indication that my analysis is probably correct is that in the earlier Merseburg wheel the device is much cruder in construction, indicating that Bessler was very much aware that the more precise the device the more accurate his measurements became. Hence the much greater care spent in its construction in the Weissenstein wheel.

It utterly amazes me that in almost 300 years no-one I know of has ever commented on this and that even today people that study Bessler still call it a pendulum when it is very clear that it is not.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: AB Hammer on October 23, 2007, 11:45:45 PM
Thanks Hans

 That was great information, I was looking at it for my 1/3 scale to do and caused me a few more questions for the display.

armagdn03

 Well it is like this the disk are lodged into the corners, when it gets around to where the weights drop it pinches the disk and shoot it up to the other end where it will lodg.
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: fletcher on October 24, 2007, 01:48:18 AM
Nice theory Hans .. & you could well be correct with your interpretation. Bessler says that they were to regulate the wheel - from that I take it to mean that like a flywheel, when under load, they helped 'smooth out' the load & energy demands so that the wheels continued to rotate at a fairly constant rpm [clip] i.e. did not speed up & slow down or had irregular rotational speed - if that were the case then they would have some pendulum effect.

I think what is also interesting are the T bar weights - it looks like they could be moved in & out as required, in some of his woodcuts - this would mean that the Center of Gyration of the pendulums would change depending on their radius from the pivot - wide set & the inertia from the T bar weights would slow the pendulum - closer in & the pendulum would not have as much inertial resistance to twisting the path of the T bar weights & so speed up - IMO, he changed the rotational inertia characteristics when the load was near maximum so that possibly the wheel could develop more torque at perhaps slower speeds.

P.S. thanks Stephan for the spell check  :)
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: hansvonlieven on October 24, 2007, 01:59:44 AM
G'day Fletcher,

Have a close look at the so-called pendulum. Even without the counterweights that negate any pendulum effect, the pendulum, which it would be now, is far too small to have any appreciable effect on a massive wheel this size. It could not regulate anything.

Take the trouble and calculate the forces in play and you will find that my analysis is correct.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: fletcher on October 24, 2007, 02:36:18 AM
hmm .. trouble is we don't have any idea of the mass of the weights depicted in the woodcuts, it would only be a guess - but if Bessler said they were to regulate the wheel then I have no real reason not to believe him - if that were so, then he can regulate the swing period by altering the positions of the T bar weights [they don't change the CoG as they rotate equidistant around its pivot IINM], therefore there must be a reason to slow down or speed up the pendulum which in turn, being attached by crank to the wheel axle, had influence on the inner force/torque generating parts of his wheels.

I agree, its not a very good way to build a pendulum [better ways to get a lower CoG] - it might be harder to explain why he needed two on each wheel as they would counter balance ? I would suggest that since they were purportedly 180 degrees out of phase that they both loaded the wheel at the same time & had little or no effect when vertical thru their swing arc - this would suggest that his wheels developed variable torque that needed to be smoothed, perhaps under high load ? Just my thoughts !
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: hansvonlieven on October 24, 2007, 03:20:21 AM
G'day Fletcher,

Bessler is right, they are there to regulate the wheel, during construction and adjustments. Today we would say to calibrate the wheel.

I have Bessler's book here, in the original German and Latin bilingual version. I can read both languages. I can find no contradiction in what I am saying and in what Bessler said. Bear in mind Bessler was apart from being a very good engineer, even by today's standards, a character who enjoyed surrounding himself with an aura of mysticism.

He was also very protective of his creation (the Wheel).

Perhaps in his poetry he is far more explicit than in the main body of text. One wonders why he included this in an otherwise quite technical book.

Apart from this, the facts speak for themselves. This is a machine (the "pendulum part of it) and it is sufficiently detailled to apply reverse engineering to it. What I said about the device is not theory. You can build that part on its own without the wheel and study its behaviour and the forces involved.

Regardless of the materials and weights involved in its construction the effects are the same. By adding the weights on top he is creating a very finely balanced system far more suitable for measuring with minimum impact than to generate any meaningful force.

Believe me, it is there for the purpose of calibrating the internal weights and their distribution. It simply does not make sense in any other way.

Hans von Lieven.
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: AB Hammer on October 24, 2007, 04:04:23 AM
From my drawing, I am using disk. So if it is not lined up correctly the disk could drag and would cause a negative effect to the wheel. But what I also looked at that it would tell how fast it was going as well when running. So it will go on the 1/3 scale model as diagrammed.
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: fletcher on October 24, 2007, 05:30:28 AM
Well Hans, as I said, perhaps you are right about that application - but - it does raise some other interesting thoughts - the first is that since the pendulum's are connected by cranks to the axle, one assumes that they could only complete one full arc & back, each revolution of the wheel - the slowest two-way wheel was reportedly at 20 rpm under load [with Archimedean water screw attached or perhaps the mill stampers IIRC] - so by looking at the relative dimensions of the Kassel & Merseburg wheel 'pendulums' it looks like they were pretty slow to swing back & forth at about 3 secs per revolution, for a 12 ft [or thereabouts] wheel - if the wheels had perhaps 8 mechs [hypothetically ; rather than one mech, one stroke etc] then its hard to see how two synchronised pendulums swinging once per revolution was any big help to the wheel, with that many mechs in each wheel ?

There are witness reports of the wheels both operating with & without the pendulums, as you say, so they weren't essential for its operation, in some uses at least.

Are you or have you ever been a member of Besslerwheel.com as with your background & analytical thinking you would be an asset over there ? Especially, as you point out, Bessler was fond of his wordsmithing skills & his ability to hide from prying eyes & ears the source of his Prime Mover. You obviously have an interest in Bessler's wheel ! - if we can spend this much time discussing the add-on perfunctory pendulum's what other juicy theories might stir within about how it actually worked  ;)
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: Jason on October 24, 2007, 06:50:54 AM
I am usually the one getting criticism from my half-baked ideas but I will say one thing that could possibly slow down if not stop the motion. When the weight drops to force the ball it seems like it will create a counter hammer effect against the momentum that it is trying to gain. Though, I hope it works. If it does I might build one. Jason
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: hansvonlieven on October 24, 2007, 10:49:15 AM
G'day Fletcher,

No, I have never been connected to Besslerwheel.com or any other perpetual motion outfit.

Having said that, I am a retired engineer with a lot of experience and I am German, though I live in Australia. Bessler, Paracelsus, Hertz, Helmholtz, Daimler, Sachs, Diesel and so forth are all part of my technological heritage and as such have received perhaps more than their fair share of attention from me over the years.

Bessler's book has always fascinated me. I have not only read it for its content but as practice in my medieval German and Latin exercises, though for purity of language his Latin leaves much to be desired. I find the man intriguing, perhaps even a bit like me because he, like me, turned his head from the areas that a classical education was supposed to lead to and took up engineering instead. In his day, even more so than in mine, this was a courageous thing to do.

I think I have said it before. Bessler was a very competent and visionary engineer, even by today's standards. Any engineer, looking at his drawings and concepts as expressed in his "Maschinen Traktate" would no doubt agree with me. He is worthy of study, whether his "Wheel" was a scam or not.

There is much knowledge and experience in what he says and how he approached technical subjects. He was also a man who did not mind to get his hands dirty and he built things, often by himself. That in itself was frowned upon in his time. If by now you think I have a soft spot for the man you are absolutely right.

Perhaps you understand a bit better now where I am coming from.

Greetings from the land down under

Hans von Lieven

Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: AB Hammer on October 24, 2007, 08:49:59 PM
P Motion

  LOL
 I'll talk to you later on that, when we all get together. It also may be closer to christmas before I get up there to Ky. to take my step son to his Dads.
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: fletcher on October 25, 2007, 12:23:57 AM
@ Hans .. Thanks Hans for the background - yes I see where you are coming from.

I think you would find that the Bessler community is classed/classes itself as 'cranks' - that's a mantle we accept cheerfully - just like here, we push the boundary's of reason & understanding & often away from where classical education would point us.

Having said that, the forum is focused on solving the mystery of Bessler?s wheels & duplicating his feats, by whatever means ? it is split between advocates of fundamentalist gravity powered wheels; skeptics, who in the main try to project objectivity & rationality; & a small sub group who think he was not a scam artist but by the same token can't bring themselves to accept a gravity only source of energy solution for his wheels, that somehow broke the CoAM laws & the conservative nature of gravity [that?s where I sit] - in a nut shell, a group who look for environmental/ambient forces as the source of his much touted Prime Mover - by way of example, thermal gradients, or the way Cox's clock was powered by barometric pressure differences in about 1670, there are other possibilities.

Unfortunately, my Latin form school days is sadly lacking 30 plus years on, however, all of Bessler's publications & Machinen Tractate have been translated into English & we have some very capable people who are able to offer up various credible translations & explore nuances of 300 year old text where the author wasn't particular interested in being clear & concise or overly helpful [engineering, physics & mechanical background a bonus] - a new site will be opening soon to fully explore the translations etc - you might find that interesting ..  johannbessler.com

Also, I have a cobber here in Auckland [we?re also down under] who is German [Rainer - aka 'Tinhead' here on this site] who can read old German & professionally supports & is a whizz on wm2d & solid works cosmos, so that helps a lot with both the language barriers [to only English speakers] & the mechanics of physics discussions he & I have & experiments & builds we undertake from time to time.

I must say that imo although it is 10 times easier to analyze someone else?s concept than your own [where you have an emotional & time investment to contend with] it is far harder to come up with a credible & original idea that can make it past any sort of close scrutiny & analysis in the first place, before it hits cyberspace ? this doesn?t stop me thinking, analyzing others designs & commenting objectively where I can & looking for that elusive ?way out in left field? answer that one day may prove productive in duplicating the performance of Bessler?s wheels & perhaps solving the 'seemingly immutable' dilemma of OU/FE to boot.

You probably noticed I slipped in an advertorial  ;D  but in all seriousness, I think I?ve taken up enough of AB Hammer?s thread space - cheers
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: longtong3 on February 13, 2008, 01:17:54 AM
These links are dead:

 Here are two basic drawings on how he would have ot have done it.
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u253/jlindgaard/arm.jpg
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u253/jlindgaard/besslerswheel.jpg
----------------------------------------------------

Are there more drawing of Bessler's wheel some where? So I can educate myself. Give links pls.

---------------------------------------------

Where is discustion topic about Wang Shum Ho Wheel 5 KW generator in this forum ? Link pls.

Thanks all.
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: Gearhead on February 13, 2008, 01:50:07 AM
Check out BesslerWheel.com   There is about anthing you would want to know about his wheel there except the secret.  There are links to many of Bessler's drawings and comments there.
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: Koen1 on February 13, 2008, 06:33:45 PM
Though it is true that lots of stuff can be found on besslerwheel.com,
I don't consider it very polite to go on another web forum, start a thread, and then
instead of keeping things in the thread, start to tell people they should go visit the
Bessler website and forum...
Of course it is good for people to know where to look for a lot more Bessler
related stuff, but don't you think people that have managed to find this forum
would be able to enter "bessler" in google and find that site themselves?
Shall we stop pointing at besslerwheel.com and keep the discussion in this thread?

That said, there's many ideas on how the bessler wheel may have worked.
One of the best in my opinion is the one P-motion has presented.

@longtong: the entire thing about the bessler wheel is that he did not actually
leave any straightforward design plans or even exact descriptions, on the basis
of which one could actually replicate his wheel. He tried to sell his energy solution
in his day, but nobody bought the thing, as far as I know. He did pusblish a manuscript
under the name Orffyrius (code), and he did leave a few intriguing remarks in there,
and there are a few witness testimonies and things bessler is supposed to have said
in relation to the wheel. Another work of bessler was his collection of various designs,
which are basically just scetches of different geometrical arrangements of wheels, levers,
and weights. This was clearly part of the research and puzzling that finally led to the
idea of the wheel as he finally made it.
There are no exact descriptions of his wheel that show how it works or was constructed.
We just don't know.
That's part of the romance of the Bessler wheel: it's a kind of "lost treasure" type thing. ;)

P-motions idea is a very nice one, but who knows if that is really how bessler did it way back then?
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: longtong3 on February 14, 2008, 12:54:54 PM
@Koen1. Did anyone see Bessler's wheel was working? If it did working, it's good to find the "lost treasure". If not, we just move on with "our" wheel or "self" wheel then. 

Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: AB Hammer on February 14, 2008, 02:05:01 PM
longtong3

 Because of the testimonies of allot of people over the 5 to 6 year span of displays and then the Tax that was put on the wheel. Sort of makes it the holy grail of gravity wheels. This is why Bessler is at the top of the list. As for P-motion it is good that he is building his wheel and as for all of us who have built wheels, we will see. Only after building a few wheels, can we then see what we truly have to over come.
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: sevich on February 14, 2008, 02:19:48 PM
@Koen1

Quote
Though it is true that lots of stuff can be found on besslerwheel.com, instead of keeping things in the thread, start to tell people they should go visit the Bessler website and forum..

Quote
Shall we stop pointing at besslerwheel.com and keep the discussion in this thread?


It's kind of funny though, Stefan, the forum administrator of overunity.com has in the past numerously posted on http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/ regarding interesting posts, there by persuading readers to check out HIS (this) "overunity.com"  forum...........so there you have it  :D
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: Koen1 on February 14, 2008, 02:21:18 PM
@Koen1. Did anyone see Bessler's wheel was working? If it did working, it's good to find the "lost treasure". If not, we just move on with "our" wheel or "self" wheel then. 
Back in the day Bessler supposedly showed working versions of his wheel on multiple occasions, often in public, in several different towns.
One of such demonstration versions was mechanically connected to a set of hammers that pounded an anvil the entire time the wheel was in operation.
He also had a wealthy sponsor, his King Karl I believe, who supported him to a degree and employed Bessler as problem solver and engineer.
At Karls castle Bessler was supposed to have had a work shop and he built a large version of his wheel in one of the castle's rooms. Several
witnesses were brought to see the wheel there. I believe it was Karl himself who is recorded saying "It is an ingenious contraption of levers, pulleys and weights.".
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: Koen1 on February 14, 2008, 02:23:35 PM
Quote
Though it is true that lots of stuff can be found on besslerwheel.com, instead of keeping things in the thread, start to tell people they should go visit the Bessler website and forum..

Quote
Shall we stop pointing at besslerwheel.com and keep the discussion in this thread?


It's kind of funny though, Stefan, the forum administrator of overunity.com has in the past numerously posted on http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/ regarding interesting posts, there by persuading readers to check out HIS (this) "overunity.com"  forum...........so there you have it  :D

Oh... really?  :-X
Didn't know that... Sorry if I rubbed anyone against the grain there ;)
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: longtong3 on February 15, 2008, 02:21:24 AM

[/quote]
He also had a wealthy sponsor, his King Karl I believe, who supported him to a degree and employed Bessler as problem solver and engineer.
At Karls castle Bessler was supposed to have had a work shop and he built a large version of his wheel in one of the castle's rooms. Several
witnesses were brought to see the wheel there. I believe it was Karl himself who is recorded saying "It is an ingenious contraption of levers, pulleys and weights.".

[/quote]

So it is a working wheel.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many people blamed Bessler that he did not get the amount of money he wanted so he did not let go his wheel. I thought other way.

If every person in the world donate $1.00 US dollar for Bessler, this was more than  the amount Bessler wanted, and the world already had the working wheel for hundred years to produce useful work.

But the world (us) try to save $1.00 for each one of us, and expect Bessler give us millions dollars worth of his wheel for free, I think we expect too much from Bessler. And Bessler can use that money for the rest of his life and who know he might invented something else?

The bottom line is: the world (us) get jealous and did not want to see Bessler get rich.

We try to save $1 dollar for each one of us, so we did take turn scratch our head for hundred years to find the working wheel. And do not find one yet, I think the world is the losser.

Does anyone here want to give away 25% of one's pay check every month for the rest of one's life? If you do, I am glad to have your 25% the rest of your life.

If you do not, then please don't expect Bessler give us all he got for the rest of his life.

Here my 2 cents.
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: hansvonlieven on February 15, 2008, 09:38:13 AM
Longtong, I am afraid your ignorance is showing.

Bessler put his wheel on display in 1712!  At that time in Europe there was a feudal society based mainly on agriculture. The man in the street had very little, meat was on the table only on special occasions and most people went hungry every now and then because they could not afford bread.

Bessler asked for an enormous amount of money, even most princes could not afford his price. In today's money the sum he asked for would be several Billion!

The entire peasantry of Germany at the time would not have had that much money between them.

Put it in perspective before you judge people and Bessler.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: longtong3 on February 16, 2008, 12:30:08 AM
Longtong, I am afraid your ignorance is showing.

Bessler put his wheel on display in 1712!  At that time in Europe there was a feudal society based mainly on agriculture. The man in the street had very little, meat was on the table only on special occasions and most people went hungry every now and then because they could not afford bread.

Bessler asked for an enormous amount of money, even most princes could not afford his price. In today's money the sum he asked for would be several Billion!

The entire peasantry of Germany at the time would not have had that much money between them.

Put it in perspective before you judge people and Bessler.

Hans von Lieven

How much did Bessler ask for at that time? Several billion for today money, it still just a few dollars for each one of us.

Maybe "argriculture boy" (equal to "oil boy" today) did not want his wheel for some reasons.
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: Koen1 on February 18, 2008, 08:15:46 PM
Well i'm with Hans on this one. It's not a simple matter of the peasants choosing not to buy the wheel.
you have to consider that
a) peasants hardly had anything of value, they often didn't even have enough food, let alone money,
b) it was a feudal society, meaning that you did what you were told by your Lord, or you'd lose your head
c) there was no industry based on other forms of power than manual, horse, or wind. Large machinery was not around.
d) there were no independent media through which the common people could learn of new developments such
as this wheel (in most countries)
e) any form of change in the status quo that might in any way or form disrupt the system in which the common folk
were ruled by the elite aristocracy was violently opposed by the latter
f) there was no concept of "one world" at the time. There were only many countries/kingdoms trying to cheat eachother. Feudalism ran deep.

And, while you're considering that, maybe you can also consider why it is that we, modern day people, with all the things we do have,
still have not joined forces to secure a safe and plentiful energy supply for centuries to come?
We can do it, you know.
It's called nuclear fusion, and it is possible.
But for some reason the nations of the world, nor the UN, nor the USA, nor the G8, nor the EU, none of those multinational alliances,
have found it worthwile investing the hundreds of billions of Euros to complete the R&D and construction of a true viable nuclear fusion plant.
Many experimental fusion reactors have already been built and used, and knowledge of fusion is now at the point where they have
successfully determined the specifications needed to build a fusion reactor that can produce sustained fusion and at the same time
output huge amounts of electrical energy. Fusion reactors can run on Deuterium and Tritium, basically heavy hydrogen, and we've got
enough hydrogen in the oceans to last us centuries, milennia even. It would, in effect, be nearly "free" energy, if we take into account that
the R&D and construction costs as well as the cost of refining the heavy water is relatively minute in comparison to the amounts of
energy it can yield.
But, for some reason, we don't.

So you can blame the poor peasants of the past for not investing in the Bessler wheel they didn't even know about,
or you can start to wonder why exactly the same thing is happening now... ;)
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: longtong3 on February 20, 2008, 07:54:32 AM
@Koen1

What you said is the problem with the people of the word or "human problem"

If the world is "lovely, honestly world", thing might work like this: group of people (company, corporation) buy Bessley's wheel (patient or invention). They pay in advance "chip in money of the world", then re-sale it to companies all around the world and get their money back, plus profit. Companies promote product (wheel, patient) then sale it to end user and get their money back plus interest.

If 10% world population use product, they pay 10 times more for the chip in. If 50% need, they pay twice the chip in. But many times it does not work that way.

Company might steal wheel (patient) from inventor (human problem)

Others companies around the world might steal idea & do not pay royalties to company which bought the patient, they want to put the end user chip in money in their own pocket (human problem)

With the human problem like that, who do you blame? Bessley and the inventor with good invention?
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: hansvonlieven on February 20, 2008, 08:19:19 AM
Don't you see longtong, there was no "world" as you know it in 1712.

Close to 90% of the population in Europe was illiterate, there was no radio, television, newspaper etc that allowed people to see things and hear about things outside their immediate vicinity.

There was not even a widely understood language as we have in English today.

You are trying to superimpose contemporary conditions on a medieval way of life. This just cannot be done. Maybe Bessler would get a better hearing today, but I doubt it. Even if you had a wheel that turned by itself there would be few people listening to you if you quoted billions of dollars as your price.

Wake up, the world just doesn't work like this.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: AB Hammer on February 20, 2008, 02:07:08 PM
Back in medieval times you would have to get the church as well as the royals on your side. But today you would have to get the Media on your side. Exposer today is allot easier than back then. As for the money, you have to deal with Corporate and learn how to take a down payment and royalties. But on an invention like this, your life would be very comfortable for the rest of your life and your heirs.
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: longtong3 on February 21, 2008, 12:29:12 AM
Let's Bessley rested in his tomb with his wheel, and we keep on looking for a working wheel.
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: pequaide on February 22, 2008, 04:03:46 AM
I build energy producing machines for $25.00. I used strobe light photographs, photo gates, and (frame by frame stop action) video tapes to evaluate the motion. All data that I collect proves energy has been made. But after years of asking people to simply repeat the experiments, everyone has refused to spend the $25.00. I think Bessler?s wheel is a small mystery compared to this.

Hans is correct Bessler asked too much. But is $25 too much, I think we are dealing with different issues today than in Bessler?s time. Today we are dealing with huge prejudice in support of The Law of Conservation of Energy.  In Bessler?s time The Law of Conservation of Energy was only a loose concept not yet clearly established. It is the false establishment of this Law that hinders free energy today. 

It is my opinion that Bessler?s wheel probably worked, it could have been a windup toy but I lean in favor of its validity. I am guessing that Bessler noticed that if the clock itself was moved it could hinder or enhance the velocity of the pendulum inside the clock. Here is where his genius came in; change the clock?s shape into a heavy circle. Then repeat the enhancement motion of the clock (a massive wheel) upon the pendulum and then lock the pendulum bob at its high point swing.  Then use the locked pendulum bob to enhance the motion of the wheel. Or if you will; transfer the momentum of the wheel to the bob and the bob will have more energy than that which was lost by the wheel.

I have not been able to figure it out, so I just make energy instead.  It is easy to do that.
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: longtong3 on February 22, 2008, 05:22:58 AM
pequaide.

what is your $25.00 machine? Where do you post it?
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: pese on February 22, 2008, 08:02:23 AM
Think about it
120 jears after Bessler, also an wheel was working in USA !!
Look the NET for    - Asa Jackson?s wheel -  Asa Jackson  ,
it was an working machine , in same Dimensions as the Bessler wheel !

---------
also nice to see
David Jones
Gibert?s machine  (perheps : Gilbert?s)


Pese
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: Dgraphic911 on February 22, 2008, 09:27:31 PM
@hans

Forgive me here, an am new to this forum as well as forums in general. Hans i have enjoyed reading most of your replies on many different subjects posted and consider your insight extremely helpful. I have a thought, which when your new to a forum may have been asked (if so i apologize). But in regards to your obvoius education on the time period and the people of Besslers time.

Q: if this device was being shown to so many people and it appeared to work, How is it that noone ever just took the device and used it for themselves. I know i may seem tyranical but thats the thought that crossed my mind. If its in my castle and I have the guards then possesion in 9/10ths as they say. I am just curious how a 1 man or even a few could stop anyone else from "looking behind" the curtain as it were ? Why did noone relieve bessler of his possesions? How does anyone in a feudal society demand high payment for something that can easily be taken?

I ask myself , if bessler was in my garage today and showed me this wheel  but was ranting and raving about money and threatening to destroy it, what would i do ?

Anyone else who may have an opinion i would love to hear it.
This site is great. 
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: Joh70 on February 22, 2008, 09:54:18 PM
i would respect the inventors decision and ask him to lower the price. if not, he can go home. His sponsor Landgraf Karl zu Hessen promised him not to tell anybody about its function-principle. therefor Bessler showed him the interior of his wheel. integritiy is more than money, even when this has disadvantages.
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: pequaide on February 23, 2008, 02:05:41 AM
What I think is the power stroke of Bessler?s wheel is found in: Free energy from gravitation using Newtonian Physics.

It only shows you how to make energy, and the current models only go through one cycle. A cycling model would be far less complex than a piston engine, and is easily within the engineering capacity of a small machine shop.

If Bessler was successful; I think he incorporated this cylinder and spheres concept into a portion of his wheel. It is not about balance it is about momentum conservation.

At 26 RPM the average mass of the wheel is moving at 2.5 m/sec; only a small portion of this momentum needs to be transferred to a rigid pendulum in order that the pendulum could rise 1 meter and then the bob locked in its drive position.     
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: AB Hammer on February 23, 2008, 02:47:03 AM
Dgraphic911
Why did noone relieve bessler of his possesions? How does anyone in a feudal society demand high payment for something that can easily be taken?

I ask myself , if Bessler was in my garage today and showed me this wheel  but was ranting and raving about money and threatening to destroy it, what would i do ?

Anyone else who may have an opinion i would love to hear it.
This site is great. 

Well it can be very simple, Karl could have been waiting on his cut for protection. Bessler had many supporters as well and to just try to take it without some form of legal coverage, would most likely cost you your life. Not to mention you would have had to kill Bessler to take it as well for he would not have given it up easily. Bessler was worth more alive so he would have been protected. IMO

Pese 
 
 I just ordered the DVD of closeups and the book on Asa Jackson. The story is that there are some missing parts and the people who reassembled it didn't do it correctly either for it was in peaces. So I thought I would give it a closer look. Who knows he could have got a hold of some original Bessler writings and drawings as well.
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: hansvonlieven on February 23, 2008, 07:06:16 AM
@hans

Forgive me here, an am new to this forum as well as forums in general. Hans i have enjoyed reading most of your replies on many different subjects posted and consider your insight extremely helpful. I have a thought, which when your new to a forum may have been asked (if so i apologize). But in regards to your obvoius education on the time period and the people of Besslers time.

Q: if this device was being shown to so many people and it appeared to work, How is it that noone ever just took the device and used it for themselves. I know i may seem tyranical but thats the thought that crossed my mind. If its in my castle and I have the guards then possesion in 9/10ths as they say. I am just curious how a 1 man or even a few could stop anyone else from "looking behind" the curtain as it were ? Why did noone relieve bessler of his possesions? How does anyone in a feudal society demand high payment for something that can easily be taken?

I ask myself , if bessler was in my garage today and showed me this wheel  but was ranting and raving about money and threatening to destroy it, what would i do ?

Anyone else who may have an opinion i would love to hear it.
This site is great. 

G'day Dgraphic and all,

This is a question I have been asking myself for a long time. There are many things about Bessler that are mysterious, like who was he and where did he come from.

I have spoken on this in other places but here are the main points.

Bessler was literate in German and Latin, not a common thing in his day. He was an accomplished draftsman, judging by his drawings. He had a good grounding in physics and engineering of the day. He had access to the crowned heads of Germany at least, if not of Europe. He worked, at least some of his life, for a living by designing and building things. In fact he was killed in a work related accident while building or repairing a windmill. He had also access to substantial funds as the publication of his book shows. It is a beautiful edition, not cheap to produce.

This is the most unusual profile of anyone I have ever heard of in that time period.

Where did he get his education? Who paid for it? Why could he seemingly mix at will with the gentry?

These are unanswered questions.

My best guess is that he was the illegitimate, but loved, son of a prince or king or at the very least someone very high up in the aristocracy with immense power. It is the only thing that makes sense to me.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: Dr on June 09, 2010, 01:30:36 AM
@ Hans: I was reading this thread and came across your above post #46 feb 23 2008 and wondered if you still have the same high opinion of mr bessler? The reason I am asking is that I have purchased all the books from Mr. Collins, and read them many times  and at one time he was posing as a priest or reverand and selling pamphlets for money, he even admits this!!
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: mscoffman on June 09, 2010, 02:24:50 AM
@All

Speaking of cutting to the chase scene...Web link; ;)

http://johncollinsnews.blogspot.com/

Overtaken by events...Indeed? ???
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: AB Hammer on June 09, 2010, 04:15:43 AM
Greetings All

 Since this design was brought back up. I feel it is time to let every one know I no longer believe this design will work. I believed it in the earlier days but experience is the best teacher. The killer is the shifting ball or bar weight is problematic for a smooth action, and the action to shoot it will cause a negative vibration that would kill the possible momentum. As you build wheels each wheel will teach you problems that you need to learn how to overcome them.

Alan
Title: Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
Post by: Cloxxki on June 09, 2010, 05:09:27 PM
Mozart was also pretty much on first-name terms with his emperor, after he first was asked to come on audiency.
Rulers of those days were I think more actively involved in art, religion and science. they'd use their citizen's genious for their own greater glory. Artsmen dedicated their work to their rulers (being main sponsors), a nice symbiosis.

Rulers' succession being decided by blood lines left the time-consuming career part out of their lives.

Pure speculation: perhaps Bessler died when his latest design accelerated out of control rather than topping out at a manageable rpm?