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Author Topic: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel  (Read 23870 times)

Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2007, 04:04:23 AM »
From my drawing, I am using disk. So if it is not lined up correctly the disk could drag and would cause a negative effect to the wheel. But what I also looked at that it would tell how fast it was going as well when running. So it will go on the 1/3 scale model as diagrammed.

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Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2007, 04:04:23 AM »

Offline fletcher

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Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #16 on: October 24, 2007, 05:30:28 AM »
Well Hans, as I said, perhaps you are right about that application - but - it does raise some other interesting thoughts - the first is that since the pendulum's are connected by cranks to the axle, one assumes that they could only complete one full arc & back, each revolution of the wheel - the slowest two-way wheel was reportedly at 20 rpm under load [with Archimedean water screw attached or perhaps the mill stampers IIRC] - so by looking at the relative dimensions of the Kassel & Merseburg wheel 'pendulums' it looks like they were pretty slow to swing back & forth at about 3 secs per revolution, for a 12 ft [or thereabouts] wheel - if the wheels had perhaps 8 mechs [hypothetically ; rather than one mech, one stroke etc] then its hard to see how two synchronised pendulums swinging once per revolution was any big help to the wheel, with that many mechs in each wheel ?

There are witness reports of the wheels both operating with & without the pendulums, as you say, so they weren't essential for its operation, in some uses at least.

Are you or have you ever been a member of Besslerwheel.com as with your background & analytical thinking you would be an asset over there ? Especially, as you point out, Bessler was fond of his wordsmithing skills & his ability to hide from prying eyes & ears the source of his Prime Mover. You obviously have an interest in Bessler's wheel ! - if we can spend this much time discussing the add-on perfunctory pendulum's what other juicy theories might stir within about how it actually worked  ;)
« Last Edit: October 24, 2007, 06:47:49 AM by fletcher »

Offline Jason

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Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2007, 06:50:54 AM »
I am usually the one getting criticism from my half-baked ideas but I will say one thing that could possibly slow down if not stop the motion. When the weight drops to force the ball it seems like it will create a counter hammer effect against the momentum that it is trying to gain. Though, I hope it works. If it does I might build one. Jason

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Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #17 on: October 24, 2007, 06:50:54 AM »
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Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #18 on: October 24, 2007, 10:49:15 AM »
G'day Fletcher,

No, I have never been connected to Besslerwheel.com or any other perpetual motion outfit.

Having said that, I am a retired engineer with a lot of experience and I am German, though I live in Australia. Bessler, Paracelsus, Hertz, Helmholtz, Daimler, Sachs, Diesel and so forth are all part of my technological heritage and as such have received perhaps more than their fair share of attention from me over the years.

Bessler's book has always fascinated me. I have not only read it for its content but as practice in my medieval German and Latin exercises, though for purity of language his Latin leaves much to be desired. I find the man intriguing, perhaps even a bit like me because he, like me, turned his head from the areas that a classical education was supposed to lead to and took up engineering instead. In his day, even more so than in mine, this was a courageous thing to do.

I think I have said it before. Bessler was a very competent and visionary engineer, even by today's standards. Any engineer, looking at his drawings and concepts as expressed in his "Maschinen Traktate" would no doubt agree with me. He is worthy of study, whether his "Wheel" was a scam or not.

There is much knowledge and experience in what he says and how he approached technical subjects. He was also a man who did not mind to get his hands dirty and he built things, often by himself. That in itself was frowned upon in his time. If by now you think I have a soft spot for the man you are absolutely right.

Perhaps you understand a bit better now where I am coming from.

Greetings from the land down under

Hans von Lieven


Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2007, 08:49:59 PM »
P Motion

  LOL
 I'll talk to you later on that, when we all get together. It also may be closer to christmas before I get up there to Ky. to take my step son to his Dads.

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Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #19 on: October 24, 2007, 08:49:59 PM »
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Offline fletcher

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Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #20 on: October 25, 2007, 12:23:57 AM »
@ Hans .. Thanks Hans for the background - yes I see where you are coming from.

I think you would find that the Bessler community is classed/classes itself as 'cranks' - that's a mantle we accept cheerfully - just like here, we push the boundary's of reason & understanding & often away from where classical education would point us.

Having said that, the forum is focused on solving the mystery of Bessler?s wheels & duplicating his feats, by whatever means ? it is split between advocates of fundamentalist gravity powered wheels; skeptics, who in the main try to project objectivity & rationality; & a small sub group who think he was not a scam artist but by the same token can't bring themselves to accept a gravity only source of energy solution for his wheels, that somehow broke the CoAM laws & the conservative nature of gravity [that?s where I sit] - in a nut shell, a group who look for environmental/ambient forces as the source of his much touted Prime Mover - by way of example, thermal gradients, or the way Cox's clock was powered by barometric pressure differences in about 1670, there are other possibilities.

Unfortunately, my Latin form school days is sadly lacking 30 plus years on, however, all of Bessler's publications & Machinen Tractate have been translated into English & we have some very capable people who are able to offer up various credible translations & explore nuances of 300 year old text where the author wasn't particular interested in being clear & concise or overly helpful [engineering, physics & mechanical background a bonus] - a new site will be opening soon to fully explore the translations etc - you might find that interesting ..  johannbessler.com

Also, I have a cobber here in Auckland [we?re also down under] who is German [Rainer - aka 'Tinhead' here on this site] who can read old German & professionally supports & is a whizz on wm2d & solid works cosmos, so that helps a lot with both the language barriers [to only English speakers] & the mechanics of physics discussions he & I have & experiments & builds we undertake from time to time.

I must say that imo although it is 10 times easier to analyze someone else?s concept than your own [where you have an emotional & time investment to contend with] it is far harder to come up with a credible & original idea that can make it past any sort of close scrutiny & analysis in the first place, before it hits cyberspace ? this doesn?t stop me thinking, analyzing others designs & commenting objectively where I can & looking for that elusive ?way out in left field? answer that one day may prove productive in duplicating the performance of Bessler?s wheels & perhaps solving the 'seemingly immutable' dilemma of OU/FE to boot.

You probably noticed I slipped in an advertorial  ;D  but in all seriousness, I think I?ve taken up enough of AB Hammer?s thread space - cheers

Offline longtong3

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Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2008, 01:17:54 AM »
These links are dead:

 Here are two basic drawings on how he would have ot have done it.
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u253/jlindgaard/arm.jpg
http://i170.photobucket.com/albums/u253/jlindgaard/besslerswheel.jpg
----------------------------------------------------

Are there more drawing of Bessler's wheel some where? So I can educate myself. Give links pls.

---------------------------------------------

Where is discustion topic about Wang Shum Ho Wheel 5 KW generator in this forum ? Link pls.

Thanks all.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2008, 01:17:54 AM »
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Offline Gearhead

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Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #22 on: February 13, 2008, 01:50:07 AM »
Check out BesslerWheel.com   There is about anthing you would want to know about his wheel there except the secret.  There are links to many of Bessler's drawings and comments there.

Offline Koen1

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Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2008, 06:33:45 PM »
Though it is true that lots of stuff can be found on besslerwheel.com,
I don't consider it very polite to go on another web forum, start a thread, and then
instead of keeping things in the thread, start to tell people they should go visit the
Bessler website and forum...
Of course it is good for people to know where to look for a lot more Bessler
related stuff, but don't you think people that have managed to find this forum
would be able to enter "bessler" in google and find that site themselves?
Shall we stop pointing at besslerwheel.com and keep the discussion in this thread?

That said, there's many ideas on how the bessler wheel may have worked.
One of the best in my opinion is the one P-motion has presented.

@longtong: the entire thing about the bessler wheel is that he did not actually
leave any straightforward design plans or even exact descriptions, on the basis
of which one could actually replicate his wheel. He tried to sell his energy solution
in his day, but nobody bought the thing, as far as I know. He did pusblish a manuscript
under the name Orffyrius (code), and he did leave a few intriguing remarks in there,
and there are a few witness testimonies and things bessler is supposed to have said
in relation to the wheel. Another work of bessler was his collection of various designs,
which are basically just scetches of different geometrical arrangements of wheels, levers,
and weights. This was clearly part of the research and puzzling that finally led to the
idea of the wheel as he finally made it.
There are no exact descriptions of his wheel that show how it works or was constructed.
We just don't know.
That's part of the romance of the Bessler wheel: it's a kind of "lost treasure" type thing. ;)

P-motions idea is a very nice one, but who knows if that is really how bessler did it way back then?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #23 on: February 13, 2008, 06:33:45 PM »
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Offline longtong3

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Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #24 on: February 14, 2008, 12:54:54 PM »
@Koen1. Did anyone see Bessler's wheel was working? If it did working, it's good to find the "lost treasure". If not, we just move on with "our" wheel or "self" wheel then. 


Offline AB Hammer

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Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2008, 02:05:01 PM »
longtong3

 Because of the testimonies of allot of people over the 5 to 6 year span of displays and then the Tax that was put on the wheel. Sort of makes it the holy grail of gravity wheels. This is why Bessler is at the top of the list. As for P-motion it is good that he is building his wheel and as for all of us who have built wheels, we will see. Only after building a few wheels, can we then see what we truly have to over come.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #25 on: February 14, 2008, 02:05:01 PM »
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Offline sevich

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Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #26 on: February 14, 2008, 02:19:48 PM »
@Koen1

Quote
Though it is true that lots of stuff can be found on besslerwheel.com, instead of keeping things in the thread, start to tell people they should go visit the Bessler website and forum..

Quote
Shall we stop pointing at besslerwheel.com and keep the discussion in this thread?


It's kind of funny though, Stefan, the forum administrator of overunity.com has in the past numerously posted on http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/ regarding interesting posts, there by persuading readers to check out HIS (this) "overunity.com"  forum...........so there you have it  :D

Offline Koen1

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Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #27 on: February 14, 2008, 02:21:18 PM »
@Koen1. Did anyone see Bessler's wheel was working? If it did working, it's good to find the "lost treasure". If not, we just move on with "our" wheel or "self" wheel then. 
Back in the day Bessler supposedly showed working versions of his wheel on multiple occasions, often in public, in several different towns.
One of such demonstration versions was mechanically connected to a set of hammers that pounded an anvil the entire time the wheel was in operation.
He also had a wealthy sponsor, his King Karl I believe, who supported him to a degree and employed Bessler as problem solver and engineer.
At Karls castle Bessler was supposed to have had a work shop and he built a large version of his wheel in one of the castle's rooms. Several
witnesses were brought to see the wheel there. I believe it was Karl himself who is recorded saying "It is an ingenious contraption of levers, pulleys and weights.".

Offline Koen1

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Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #28 on: February 14, 2008, 02:23:35 PM »
Quote
Though it is true that lots of stuff can be found on besslerwheel.com, instead of keeping things in the thread, start to tell people they should go visit the Bessler website and forum..

Quote
Shall we stop pointing at besslerwheel.com and keep the discussion in this thread?


It's kind of funny though, Stefan, the forum administrator of overunity.com has in the past numerously posted on http://www.besslerwheel.com/forum/ regarding interesting posts, there by persuading readers to check out HIS (this) "overunity.com"  forum...........so there you have it  :D

Oh... really?  :-X
Didn't know that... Sorry if I rubbed anyone against the grain there ;)

Offline longtong3

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Re: Here it is, Bessler's 12 ft wheel
« Reply #29 on: February 15, 2008, 02:21:24 AM »

[/quote]
He also had a wealthy sponsor, his King Karl I believe, who supported him to a degree and employed Bessler as problem solver and engineer.
At Karls castle Bessler was supposed to have had a work shop and he built a large version of his wheel in one of the castle's rooms. Several
witnesses were brought to see the wheel there. I believe it was Karl himself who is recorded saying "It is an ingenious contraption of levers, pulleys and weights.".

[/quote]

So it is a working wheel.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Many people blamed Bessler that he did not get the amount of money he wanted so he did not let go his wheel. I thought other way.

If every person in the world donate $1.00 US dollar for Bessler, this was more than  the amount Bessler wanted, and the world already had the working wheel for hundred years to produce useful work.

But the world (us) try to save $1.00 for each one of us, and expect Bessler give us millions dollars worth of his wheel for free, I think we expect too much from Bessler. And Bessler can use that money for the rest of his life and who know he might invented something else?

The bottom line is: the world (us) get jealous and did not want to see Bessler get rich.

We try to save $1 dollar for each one of us, so we did take turn scratch our head for hundred years to find the working wheel. And do not find one yet, I think the world is the losser.

Does anyone here want to give away 25% of one's pay check every month for the rest of one's life? If you do, I am glad to have your 25% the rest of your life.

If you do not, then please don't expect Bessler give us all he got for the rest of his life.

Here my 2 cents.

 

OneLink