Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

Plug Heater

Powerbox

Smartbox

3D Solar

3D Solar Panels

DC2DC converter

Micro JouleThief

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Products

WaterMotor kit

Statistics


  • *Total Posts: 506122
  • *Total Topics: 15118
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 6
  • *Guests: 18
  • *Total: 24

Author Topic: A working ball wheel  (Read 17787 times)

Offline AB Hammer

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1253
Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2007, 03:30:56 AM »
mramos

I have to laugh a little for I don't think you are a Red Dwarf fan. Smeg is a substitution for a smelly word.

The third wheel is the one I want to build, it will be a 4 ft. version, that way I can carry it in my car. I am showing what has come before it due to the video won't show the action. even thow those actions fall short of the third. I also have my other wheels to finish for patent to go along with my flywheel designs. Yes the third is meant for open source due to I truly feel that it is bessler's wheel design and how it worked. At least the 12 foot one. I have other ideas for the others for I have strong beliefs that they all where different.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #15 on: October 18, 2007, 03:30:56 AM »

Offline hartiberlin

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7835
    • free energy research OverUnity.com
Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #16 on: October 18, 2007, 03:37:26 AM »
Smeg! since I showed the patterns I will show you the second version. But not the 3rd version for it has something extra, and it will work just the same according to the math, as Besslers 12 ft wheel.

Hmm, I wonder,
how this could be simulated in WorkingModel 2D.

Can I use 3 layer behind each other ?
I have to try this..

@Hammer,
maybe you can still rebuild it and show a video of it running ?
Many thanks in advance.


Offline wattsup

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2627
    • Spin Conveyance Theory - For a New Perspective...
Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2007, 05:31:41 AM »
Interesting but as soon as the bottom ball passes to the left, you're cooked. There will be more weight on the left than on the right and stop.

Also, don't waste time with a cardboard cause this will only falsify your results.
First rule. The wheel has to be perfectly balanced first without the balls.
Then add the balls.

But even then, the fact that the right ends curve downwards, it will pass the center line sooner and become a counter weight faster.

The solution to these wheels is alot more complex then we may think. What you do on the left, happens faster or slower on the right. What you do on the right happens faster or slower on the left.

Even if you keep a percentage of the balls in a neutral zone, those active will always be more on the left, less on the right.

If you do your drawings, do it with the bottom ball on center and see if the wheel will pass this point. If it does not, then you know there's a problem.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #17 on: October 18, 2007, 05:31:41 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline FreeEnergy

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1925
    • HackersClub.NET
Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #18 on: October 18, 2007, 08:35:25 AM »
this idea looks like it will work, at least from my point of view! i can be wrong though. :)

Stefan any luck with working model 2d in replicating this design?






peace

Offline AB Hammer

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1253
Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2007, 02:35:10 PM »
Greetings all

This is to help you understand my approach to the gravity/Bessler wheel problem. The patterns I am making go into 4 categories.
1. Is toy a wheel that moves but has little to no modern value.
2. Is a wheel that has value but might have to be to big for home use.
3. Is a wheel that has value to home or industry.
4. Is a totaly new concept that may exceed the imagination.

With armour I have dealt with many moving problems to duplicate the bodies movement comfortably. I have also show mechanical abilities since I was young. At 8 I could repair any fishing real that was brought to me. And as far as I can remember I have never failed in figuring out any mechanical problem. Categories 3 and 4 are the only ones that will have any value today, so that is my real target goal. I have been seeing people keep on a narrow path and loosing hope all to often, including my nabber that got me into this hobby. The cardboard wheel was just a test. I was using 3/4 inch ball bearings. It got Buddy my nabber and I very excited but not going very fast either like 1, 2, 3, only making 1/4 turn, and then it started to deform and a ball fell out. Thus started even more and more patterning. The first one that I have been working on (on its 4 alteration) is only a 18 inch wheel and should be able to run a small generator. When it works, this one will make a difference.

The ball wheel that I have posted, is to give people more hope with something that at least runs some. I can't say if it runs forever either but is promising as a toy #1 category. From what I have read of Bessler the 12 foot wheel would only fit into the #2 category but like the 6.5 foot and the 9.3 would have fit into the #3 category.

I at least hope this help you understand my approach.

And  wattsup  use 6

Alan

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #19 on: October 18, 2007, 02:35:10 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline armagdn03

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #20 on: October 18, 2007, 04:38:31 PM »
I have been thinking about the gravity wheel concept as a whole here for a couple days, and I think that the one you have with the ball rotating into the center is a good example to build my conclusion off of, but It fits most other designs.

If you have a wheel with a row of cups on the rim designed to catch falling balls, you would have a type of water wheel. Now if you had two rows of cups, one on the rim, and one further in towards the center, now you have a wheel with two concentric circles of cups, a fancy water wheel if you will.

Now this is the question that begs answering.

If I drop balls into the outer rim, and say the wheel has very little mass and the balls are quite heavy so their momentum dominates the system.  If you drop a ball onto the outside circle of cups, you will cause the rim to rotate downwards, but no faster than -9.81 meters per second squared. Towards the center of the wheel, movement will be much less as we would expect.

Now if you were to drop the same ball into the smaller circle of cups, does the outside circumference travel downwards faster than gravitational acceleration? Or since the cups in the center ring are harder to move, will the wheel rotate at the same speed no matter which cup you drop it into?

Physics tells us that it doesn?t matter which you drop it into, and this has been my experience. This thought experiment is reversible. Lifting the ball to a certain height takes the same amount of energy that will be released from it upon return to its starting position, regardless of path.

Im sure there is a way around this, but I really don?t think it matters where on the wheel the ball comes back up, be it a straight path from the 6 o?clock position to the center, or along the outside rim, it takes the same force to accomplish both.

But here is the really interesting thing that never made sense to me about vector addition, and I found this when I tried to quantify vector components in terms of percentages of a whole. (say you have a vector with an angle of 90 and a magnitude of 2. You have a y component vector that is equal to magnitude 2 and an x that is equal to 0. or if you have vector angle zero, and magnitude 2, you have a y =2 and an x=0. But if you have a 45 degree magnitude one, you have an x = 1.414 y=1.414, so together you have a displacement of 2, but individually you have one that is greater?.How can this be? Obviously x is 50 percent of the whole, and y is 50 percent of the whole, but of what whole? The two vector magnitudes added together? Do you take it from their resultant multiplication? Are we saying that 1.414 is 50% of 2?

This applies to wheels too, which are just essentially unit circles which the above math is based off of.

I understand that speed of a falling ball on a wheel is dependant on its path as stated above, but energy stays the same, but there is still something hidden that I cant quite put my finger on. I think the lead out theory explains this, but I haven?t studied it enough carefully, maybe someone would enlighten me a bit more.

I think it is possible to get something out of a wheel, but it?s a sticky wicket indeed.

Offline armagdn03

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2007, 04:41:38 PM »
I also have access to a Data Tech table, which is essentially a computer controlled exacto knife that can cut out cardboard designs exactly up to 6ft by 9ft. If anybody has need of exact replication of ideas, id be willing to cut the ideas out, and give it a try or send you your requests over mail, (materials and time would be free, but it would be nice to have a little shipping compensation)

I would need the files to be made on a computer aided drafting program like AutoCAD, and you must save your drawing as a .dxf which is one of the options when saving your file

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #21 on: October 18, 2007, 04:41:38 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline AB Hammer

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1253
Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #22 on: October 18, 2007, 05:43:22 PM »
armagdn03

I have already posted one that is like one you mentioned.
The key is using the law of leverage and understanding shift. It has been said- With a long enough leaver you can move mountains.

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,3497.0/topicseen.html

Offline armagdn03

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2007, 06:02:04 PM »
That?s just the thing though, if you have a lever with fulcrum at one end, a load at the other, and a driving force inbetween, it doesn?t matter where you put the driving force, you will always get the same amount of work done,  it is a trade off between force and distance moved, but never more energy than put in.  for example if you x displacement at the load, and you have a pressure near the fulcrum, you don?t move the pressure very far, but you have to apply a bit of force, if you move it closer to the load you move it far, but not that much force. It?s a trade off based on trigonometric principles outlined in the unit circle, and vector addition.

You said you have one like I said and pointed me to a link, but your ball one is like this too, and almost every other one I have ever seen. The problem is that I see people trying to do something that is impossible. You are changing the path of an object but its displacement is the same, and I see a ton of designs that look different by are trying to solve the problem in the same manor, which DOES NOT WORK. We need to go about this a different way. We need to look at the horizontal component, the perpendicular to gravitational force, as this is where extra work is done in my opinion.

Remember one gift 4 man, or whatever that crazy site was? It claimed a new use of Bernoulli?s principle? Think about the principle, it contains a displacement perpendicular to gravity that causes extra movement of molecules creating a vacuum over a wing making it rise. Maybe there is something to this?

I could be way off, but who knows.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2007, 06:02:04 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline AB Hammer

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1253
Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2007, 06:18:21 PM »
armagdn03
 
 What do you think made the cardboard one work? If the principle is wrong, then something happened that we need to examen. The thoughts come to me specilly when it started to deform, but still kept running. So maybe it was shifting the whole wheel each time the ball fell which may have kept it running. Its just a thought but it would still give a direction to go with.

Offline armagdn03

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 441
Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2007, 06:27:10 PM »
I hope you are correct! and I dont doubt you are!
Im only having a bit of trouble understanding why it would work if it does. Thants my point, is that I think there is something there to be taken advantage of, but I cannot figure it out on paper which bothers the F*$K out of me! ???

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2007, 06:27:10 PM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline hartiberlin

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7835
    • free energy research OverUnity.com
Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2007, 07:25:00 PM »


Stefan any luck with working model 2d in replicating this design?


Haven?t had the time to try it yet,
Still want to finish first my test with the TEP and transformer thing.

Well, maybe it could be modelled in WM2D by using 3 wheels
and coupling them via gears or belts and have one ball in each wheel ?

But I think the Bob Kostoff device is much interesting,
but I also still ponder how to simulate this in WM2D...

Offline AB Hammer

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1253
Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2007, 07:40:38 PM »
armagdn03

I took a little longer lunch to add a couple more attachments to the snowflake wheel now 2.0.

Between all that I have added there is one extra part to look at, the ball excelerator. Now I hope this will help your math to clear what up what is needed to fill the gap. Like a Poker player I don't show all my cards to soon, but it is time to lay another down.

Offline hansvonlieven

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2558
    • Keelytech
Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #28 on: October 19, 2007, 09:47:07 AM »
Sorry Hammer,

Your working Ball Wheel is not what it is cracked up to be, unless there is something you have not told us about. My original assessment was right. It does not work as drawn.

Your design states:

(http://www.keelytech.com/overunity/hammer.jpg)

Here is my analysis in detail:

(http://www.keelytech.com/overunity/hammerwheel3.gif)

Each sector drawn is 5 degrees anticlockwise from the previous one. It must be borne in mind that at all times there are two additional balls "parked" in the centre which are not shown in the drawings for sake of clarity. The drawings cover the full 60 degrees of revolution, which is one cycle out of three per revolution. The other cycles are identical in function only the sectors in play vary.

I am aware that each ball has its own disk to run in and that the disks are stacked horizontally.

This raises another point that I find difficult to evaluate. Since there is a cavity in each disk where the ball rolls the disk by necessity is an eccentric wheel by itself. The axis is no longer the centre of gravity.

(http://www.keelytech.com/overunity/grav1.gif)

The centre of gravity was determined in the standard way. The disk was suspended in turn by three points and allowed to settle. A plumb line was used to determine the point immediately below, as dictated by the gravitic forces. A line was drawn connecting both points. Where the three lines cross there is the centre of gravity. Actually, strictly speaking only two lines are required, the third one is only to eliminate errors. This is also standard practice.

This is the cardboard cutout with the plumb lines that I used to determine the centre of gravity. The cutout lies on a piece of green cardboard for better visibility. The disk was suspended from the points where the arrows are.

(http://www.keelytech.com/overunity/grav2.gif)

In my analysis I have assumed that this discrepancy is being compensated for by counterweights in order to have the empty wheel run true.

If leaving the eccentricity in place is helpful or a hindrance is a matter of trial. Without knowing the displacement weight relative to the weight of the balls it is impossible to calculate since everything depends on the materials used in the disk and in the balls and their specific gravity and relative dimensions.

Hope this is of help to those contemplating to build the device.

Hans von Lieven

Offline AB Hammer

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 1253
Re: A working ball wheel
« Reply #29 on: October 19, 2007, 02:46:45 PM »
Thanks Hans

Now I guess it is time to try to figure out what happened with the cardboard model that made it run, for something happened and I want to know what. Like I said it didn't move that well but it did move deformed in a loping kind of way. All and all it wouldn't have helped free energy anyway. The 2nd version would work better than the first, and the third version I have no droughts. It has a really cool snap to it, which I believe fits Bessler's 12 ft wheel to a T. I am redrawing it to make it clear on how the mechanisms works, and I think you will be surprised. Just give me a couple of days.




 

OneLink