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Author Topic: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler  (Read 1274823 times)

Offline armagdn03

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #180 on: October 23, 2007, 09:05:18 PM »
@fritz

so you are saying that we have an impedance matching issue? if thats the case here is one to consider,

does the impedance of the plug affect the driving circuit? (excluding the generator)

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Mr.Entropy

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #181 on: October 23, 2007, 09:06:13 PM »

If we are basing the results off of the barium ferrite core resonanting at a frequency of 10Mhz, then why is it a linear growth on the graph, with no decernable change in characteristics floating around the 10Mhz resonant point?

It's because there's nothing in the core that resonates around 10MHz.   That 10MHz figure you have is for nuclear magentic resonance imaging.  At the atomic level, that means:

- You apply an enormous magnetic field.

- Like a clock spring attached to a flywheel, the magnetic field keeps the atoms aligned in a particular direction.

- If you disturb the alignment, they'll oscillate back and forth at some frequency, again like the flywheel+spring.

- If disturb them with an oscillating force at that frequency, they'll resonate and their oscillations will grow (relatively) large.

Now, in exactly the same way that the resonant frequency of a wheel+spring depends on the strength of the spring, the resonant frequency of an atom in NMR depends on the strength of the magnetic field.

That is why the figures were quoted relative to H at 100MHz.  It means that if you apply a magnetic field of the strength that makes H resonate at 100MHz, then barium will resonate at 10MHz.

If you don't apply an enormous magnetic field at all, you don't have any of this kind of nuclear resonance at all.

Cheers,

Mr. Entropy

Offline edork

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #182 on: October 23, 2007, 09:45:49 PM »
Hi fritz!

Hey nice but where you built Stifler circuit? So what you mix good fruit with bad?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #182 on: October 23, 2007, 09:45:49 PM »
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Offline fritz

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #183 on: October 23, 2007, 11:09:02 PM »

If we are basing the results off of the barium ferrite core resonanting at a frequency of 10Mhz, then why is it a linear growth on the graph, with no decernable change in characteristics floating around the 10Mhz resonant point?

It's because there's nothing in the core that resonates around 10MHz.   That 10MHz figure you have is for nuclear magentic resonance imaging.  At the atomic level, that means:

- You apply an enormous magnetic field.

- Like a clock spring attached to a flywheel, the magnetic field keeps the atoms aligned in a particular direction.

- If you disturb the alignment, they'll oscillate back and forth at some frequency, again like the flywheel+spring.

- If disturb them with an oscillating force at that frequency, they'll resonate and their oscillations will grow (relatively) large.

Now, in exactly the same way that the resonant frequency of a wheel+spring depends on the strength of the spring, the resonant frequency of an atom in NMR depends on the strength of the magnetic field.

That is why the figures were quoted relative to H at 100MHz.  It means that if you apply a magnetic field of the strength that makes H resonate at 100MHz, then barium will resonate at 10MHz.

If you don't apply an enormous magnetic field at all, you don't have any of this kind of nuclear resonance at all.

Cheers,

Mr. Entropy



The self resonant frequency of an AM ferrite antenna is around 10MHz.
This resonance is given by the inductivity of the coil and the parasitary
capacity of the winding. Every winding builds somewhat capacity to the
next winding. This distributed capacity forms a parallel LC circuit - in this
case with resonance around 10MHz.
The primary coil on top of the original coil forms another parasitary capacitor -
in our case around 20-40pF

rgds.

Offline fritz

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #184 on: October 23, 2007, 11:20:11 PM »
@fritz

so you are saying that we have an impedance matching issue? if thats the case here is one to consider,

does the impedance of the plug affect the driving circuit? (excluding the generator)
Even if you see no ground here on the schematic of part2, there is straight
ac/rf path from the led to the generator. Any change in this path - including
a measurement with the scope or a change in the connection to the generator
changes the load from the perspective of the generator. This is why a replacement
of the led against a big capacitor changes the current from the generator, the voltage
on series resistor R2.
rgds.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #184 on: October 23, 2007, 11:20:11 PM »
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Offline armagdn03

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #185 on: October 23, 2007, 11:22:14 PM »
I am very confused now.

I have been reading up on alot of NMR and MRI just to make sure I have the science correct, and it seems that maximum spin happens after two variables are colide if you will. One is a minimum magnetic saturation (which is kinda like bias, as if you were to use a transistor you have to have a bias) and the other is frequency. From what I understand the bandwidth of activity in the elements is not very high at all, which is good in the medical field since it allows us to selectively see things.

here is a graph of an experiment where we would keep the magnetic field constant and vary the frequency

(http://www.cis.rit.edu/htbooks/nmr/chap-3/images/cw-swb.gif)
http://www.cis.rit.edu/htbooks/nmr/chap-3/images/cw-swb.gif
and here is one where we would vary the magnetic field

(http://www.cis.rit.edu/htbooks/nmr/chap-3/c7-2.htm)
http://www.cis.rit.edu/htbooks/nmr/chap-3/c7-2.htm
the last animation does not work so I added the links in

as you can see we need to reach a certain magnetic field strength to see results.

But if  we have a narrow window of magnetic field strength and frequency,

how are we able to see results at super low power? I wouldnt think this is enough to bias the element
How come our output is not in some way connected to the graph of the spin (up to saturation) of barium since that is what is suposedly the key?

something is not adding up here. Definitly NOT CRYING FOUL, just saying I dont think we are even close to understanding the role of barium yet if any role at all.

Offline fritz

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #186 on: October 23, 2007, 11:24:13 PM »
Hi fritz!

Hey nice but where you built Stifler circuit? So what you mix good fruit with bad?

Well, here is a little bit more of a similar circuit,
I?m not able to replicate it because I don?t have the right
cores nor the same breadboard.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #186 on: October 23, 2007, 11:24:13 PM »
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Offline armagdn03

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #187 on: October 23, 2007, 11:24:38 PM »
an interesting thought with no science to back it up.....


what if very little energy is needed to resonate atoms in a capacitive manor rather than a magnetic one? what implications would this have?

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #188 on: October 23, 2007, 11:46:47 PM »

The self resonant frequency of an AM ferrite antenna is around 10MHz.

Hi Fritz,  have you measured that to be around 10MHz or you judged?  If you only judged, I would say you are probably correct if you remove the ferrite rod from the coil and  refer to the self-resonant frequency of the now air core coil, right?.   

Because the high permeability of the ferrite core would still dominate the inductance of the coil at 10MHz (even though the permeability certainly gets reduced with increasing frequency) so the presence of the core would not let such a high self resonant frequency.  Do you agree?
My understanding is an AM ferrite antenna coil has approximatly  600-700uH of self inductance around 0.5-1MHz. Suppose it still has about 70uH inductance left at 10MHz, right?  This 70uH needs  about 1.5pF (distributed and parasitic capacitance) to resonate at 10MHz, right?  And the AM coil on the ferrite rod surely has higher than 1.5pF distributed cap due to the many turns of wire, this surely has to lower the self resonance frequency of the ferrite antenna well below 10MHz.

Kind regards
Gyula

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #188 on: October 23, 2007, 11:46:47 PM »
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Offline Freenrg4me

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #189 on: October 23, 2007, 11:51:01 PM »
@dork - Fritz is just doing what he can to try to figure this out and produce an explanation. That is a good thing, no? He has good intent and experience. At least he is doing experiments and posting results. I will defend my friend Fritz or Ron as long as they are trying to do science. (right or wrong) If they make a mistake, we will be kind to them for trying to explain something interesting or find something new. Neither of them have ill intent.

@ Fritz - Hey in one of the pictures with the crowbar (When I expand it to full size) where you are holding the LEDS, I noticed that the primary is not connected at either end but the signal is going through the secondary to the LEDS in your fingers. How is that a replication of the Stiffler circuit since Stiffler has an open end on one coil? Are you just trying to show that you can hold an LED and get it to light by touching the right power source and your body being a good impedance match? You mentioned the importance of impedance matching - Just curious.

Also, that ebay site sells variable capacitors  - do you think that would be helpful in tuning? Stiffler used a silver dipped mica cap. Do caps have reactance speeds?

The reason I ask is in the Meyer circuit, US patent 4798661, Meyer describes what looks like an air plate capacitor submerged in distilled water. Now why would someone go though the hassle of creating that if a simple off the shelf capacitor will work? Could someone teach me about charge/discharge speed of a capacitor?

Sure electricity goes through water quite fast but the charge or bond angle change is about 1mm per second. I am trying to take what I learn from this in regards to distributive capacitance on a transmission line and apply it to Meyer circuit since I keep seeing and hearing similar terms.

Glad to see this forum go back to the CE circuit too.

Offline gotoluc

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #190 on: October 23, 2007, 11:57:38 PM »

(This is the point why birds can sit on high voltage wires - and humans cannot)
(The capacity of a bird to ground is very low - evolutionary ???;-))darwin?)
 
rgds.

Man on a wire ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcalasGr_uk

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #190 on: October 23, 2007, 11:57:38 PM »
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Offline edork

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #191 on: October 24, 2007, 12:17:54 AM »
Hi fritz!

Where White LED, Green LED lower voltage drop?

When you light 150 White LED like Stifler I shake your hand.

Offline fritz

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #192 on: October 24, 2007, 12:20:33 AM »

The self resonant frequency of an AM ferrite antenna is around 10MHz.

Hi Fritz,  have you measured that to be around 10MHz or you judged?  If you only judged, I would say you are probably correct if you remove the ferrite rod from the coil and  refer to the self-resonant frequency of the now air core coil, right?.   

Because the high permeability of the ferrite core would still dominate the inductance of the coil at 10MHz (even though the permeability certainly gets reduced with increasing frequency) so the presence of the core would not let such a high self resonant frequency.  Do you agree?
My understanding is an AM ferrite antenna coil has approximatly  600-700uH of self inductance around 0.5-1MHz. Suppose it still has about 70uH inductance left at 10MHz, right?  This 70uH needs  about 1.5pF (distributed and parasitic capacitance) to resonate at 10MHz, right?  And the AM coil on the ferrite rod surely has higher than 1.5pF distributed cap due to the many turns of wire, this surely has to lower the self resonance frequency of the ferrite antenna well below 10MHz.


I measured (my) coil with LCR meter at 1kHz -  has about 400uH - but it
has less winding than the "original".

To measure the self resonance frequency - I operated the primary coil (9 turns)
with my siggen from 1-20MHz.
I connected the tip of my osc probe to one end of the AM coil. (....)
There are regularly resonances with 120% nominal amplitude every 1.5Mhz (est.)
and a 300% resonance overshoot around 10MHz.

I agree with your estimates for the values at 10 Mhz - to measure this exactly - I
have to repair my other LC meter which is capable of measuring even with 10MHz
frequency ...

By moving the ferrite coil in and out at resonance frequency - shows a variation of
amplitude at the AM coil with a factor of lets say 5. On doing that - you can additional
watch the capacitiv coupling between both coils:
Very nice:
Hold one end of the AM coil (yes this side gets grounded by your finger than) - and move
the ferrite core in and out. You see precisely that the dominant coupling changes
at some point from capacitiv (ferrite out) to inductive - ferrite enters part where both
coils are on top of each other. Nice phase change, looks very good.

rgds.

Offline fritz

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #193 on: October 24, 2007, 12:31:36 AM »

(This is the point why birds can sit on high voltage wires - and humans cannot)
(The capacity of a bird to ground is very low - evolutionary ???;-))darwin?)
 
rgds.

Man on a wire ???

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HcalasGr_uk

This man is wearing feather-alike clothes, the wire is not that with
the real high voltage (look at the insulators).
I wont do that naked ;-)))
rgds.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #194 on: October 24, 2007, 12:32:12 AM »

I measured (my) coil with LCR meter at 1kHz -  has about 400uH - but it
has less winding than the "original".

To measure the self resonance frequency - I operated the primary coil (9 turns)
with my siggen from 1-20MHz.
I connected the tip of my osc probe to one end of the AM coil. (....)
There are regularly resonances with 120% nominal amplitude every 1.5Mhz (est.)
and a 300% resonance overshoot around 10MHz.

I agree with your estimates for the values at 10 Mhz - to measure this exactly - I
have to repair my other LC meter which is capable of measuring even with 10MHz
frequency ...

Hi Fritz,  ok, thanks for your answer, I understand and agree most but please consider the oscilloscope probe has got a 13-15pF loading capacitance in parallel with its 10MegaOhm input resistance and that self capacitance significantly detunes the ferrite rod coil, right?  The best way to measure the self  resonance frequency would be to use a Grid Dip Meter (GDO for short) you surely know this calibrated LC oscillator that shows energy transfer to a passive tank circuit when it is near or at the resonant frequency of the passive tank.

Thanks, Gyula

 

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