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Author Topic: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler  (Read 1213088 times)

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #2775 on: November 23, 2009, 09:43:20 PM »
Dr. Stiffler,

The manufacturer might be saying that the typical bcap is 3F, and is *capable* of such high current, but the cap might be inefficient at high current. If it is, then you can't get all of the cap energy into the load unless you use low current tests. I'm not siding with the manufacturer, and I'm not saying that's the way their caps are, but I know the caps will most likely be more efficient at 40mA versus 2000mA. This might be an inherent effect of such super/ultra capacitors. The question is, if one did the experiments at say 40mA, then would it amount to 3F.

Regards,
Paul

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Offline DrStiffler

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #2776 on: November 23, 2009, 09:58:42 PM »
Dr. Stiffler,

The manufacturer might be saying that the typical bcap is 3F, and is *capable* of such high current, but the cap might be inefficient at high current. If it is, then you can't get all of the cap energy into the load unless you use low current tests. I'm not siding with the manufacturer, and I'm not saying that's the way their caps are, but I know the caps will most likely be more efficient at 40mA versus 2000mA. This might be an inherant effect of such super/ultra capacitors. The question is, if one did the experiments at say 40mA, then would it amount to 3F.

Regards,
Paul

@Mr. Lowrance

Very well stated and very close to complete. This is why when anyone says they have reached OU with Ultra/Super Cap charging one must take it with a grain of salt, unless the cap has been properly analyzed and charted, otherwise charge and discharge rate (R) will affect what the capacity is that is realized.

Very good.

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #2777 on: November 23, 2009, 10:05:34 PM »
Thanks Dr. Stiffler. Nice work you've done, and looking forward to more of your research & circuits!

This all reminds me of a favorite quote,

"Everything should be made as simple as possible, but not simpler."
Albert Einstein

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #2777 on: November 23, 2009, 10:05:34 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #2778 on: November 24, 2009, 08:09:40 PM »
@Kator01 @All

I'm not back to get into discussions or start the usual fireline as last time, I may pop in no and them when it looks like a bit of input may help.

And so is the case with Super Caps. Measuring the time constant of Super Caps is a waste of ones time, it does not provide accurate information.

I have included a link to a paper I did on Boost Caps and the paper contains references to other papers and manufactures on how a Super Cap must be tested. If not done properly many different values can be determined from the same cap under test.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/12389577/Auto-Audio-Boost-Capacitor-Test-Paper

Hi Dr.Stiffler,
had a quick look at your measurements.

Well, you used only 5 and 10 ohms load resistors to do this.

What would come out of this test, if you would use
100 Ohm and 1000 ohm load resistors ?

Maybe as Paul said, the lower the current is, the better and
more efficient these caps will be ?

What I found very interesting in your test was, that you needed
less time to charge up the caps with the ? same load resistor ?

So doesn´t that already say, that there is an energy gain ?

During charging the caps seemed to have a smaller capacity,
so you needed less Joules from the power supply.

During discharge the caps seemed to have a larger capacity
and thus delivered more Joules to the load resistor ?

Maybe this is the effect user Gadgetmail is using,
cause he claims his JT circuit with a supercap is overunity ?

Please let me know your comments.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline DrStiffler

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #2779 on: November 25, 2009, 03:37:25 AM »
Hi Dr.Stiffler,
had a quick look at your measurements.

Well, you used only 5 and 10 ohms load resistors to do this.

What would come out of this test, if you would use
100 Ohm and 1000 ohm load resistors ?

Maybe as Paul said, the lower the current is, the better and
more efficient these caps will be ?

What I found very interesting in your test was, that you needed
less time to charge up the caps with the ? same load resistor ?

So doesn´t that already say, that there is an energy gain ?

During charging the caps seemed to have a smaller capacity,
so you needed less Joules from the power supply.

During discharge the caps seemed to have a larger capacity
and thus delivered more Joules to the load resistor ?

Maybe this is the effect user Gadgetmail is using,
cause he claims his JT circuit with a supercap is overunity ?

Please let me know your comments.

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan

I did in my last answer (Paul L.) state that R does make a difference in what the C result may be. It is extremely hard to obtain a set of factory test specifications. Indeed I tried hard. Mallory does have available some info, (See References in my paper). Also looking at the tests and procedures I reference will help explain this and show some of the pit falls one my run into.

I DO NOT think Ultra/Super capacitors are mini OU factories, rather they have changing internal dynamics based and affected by charge/discharge rates.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #2779 on: November 25, 2009, 03:37:25 AM »
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Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #2780 on: November 26, 2009, 04:43:57 AM »
Hi Dr. Stiffler, Stefan, and poynt99, & all,

Today the Maxwell boostcap BCAP0650 arrived, so I did a few quick tests. I'm a bit puzzled over the results, and would like your input. More tests are required to say for certain, but here's the data from two measurements,

Measurement #1:
Description: How long it takes to charge the BCAP0650.
Capacitor initial voltage: 210mV
Capacitor final voltage: 220mV
Current source: 199 mA
Time duration: 26.9 sec
=======
Calculated capacitance = 535 F

Measurement #2:
Description: How long it takes to charge the BCAP0650.
Capacitor initial voltage: 410mV
Capacitor final voltage: 420mV
Current source: 42.1 mA
Time duration: 150 sec
=======
Calculated capacitance = 632 F


Although inconclusive, could this suggest that bcap requires *less* energy to charge when *higher* current is used?

If confirmed, then it appears the bcap behaves as if it has less capacitance when high current is used. When the bcap was charged at 199mA, the capacitance was 535F. So if we place a load across the bcap and drain it at 42.1mA, would it have 632F? If true, then that indicates excess energy.

Tomorrow I'll do the other experiments to know for certain. It's probably nothing, and easily explained, but I thought this was interesting nonetheless. Tomorrow we'll know for certain.

Any input is greatly appreciated!

Regards,
Paul

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #2781 on: November 26, 2009, 05:09:55 AM »
Hi Paul,
what voltage and charge resistor did you use to do this ?

Yes, Supercaps seem to be very dynamically interally.

Just have a look at what Dr. Stiffler has measured in his thread and
found out about his 3 Farad caps.

It seems possible, that the capacity varies with the value of the used charge/discharge current.

Maybe we can use this somehow to design a circuit to capture excess energy from the background ?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #2781 on: November 26, 2009, 05:09:55 AM »
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Offline Pirate88179

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #2782 on: November 26, 2009, 05:15:10 AM »
Paul:

That was good work there.  This was what I have been saying for almost 2 years about these type of caps, they do not behave in a "normal" capacitor manner.  At least not in my experience anyway.  Thanks for posting your results.  You will enjoy that B-cap, I promise you.

Bill

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #2783 on: November 26, 2009, 05:16:30 AM »
Hi Stefan,

A current source unit was connected to the bcap along with a current meter in-series, of course, and a voltage meter across the bcap. That's all.

It would be amazing if these caps capture excess energy. The only theory that comes to mind is based on quantum tunneling where a percentage of the more energetic charges tunnel across the polar molecules. I don't know, that theory is a stretch, and I'm not Stephen Hawking or a QM guru.

Bill,
Thanks. Stefan's correct that Dr. Stiffler has mentioned this odd effect. If true then you guys made the discovery of all discoveries.

Regards,
Paul

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #2783 on: November 26, 2009, 05:16:30 AM »
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Offline EMdevices

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #2784 on: November 26, 2009, 05:34:36 AM »
Paul, I hope you know that a capacitor, and especially the ultra capacitors (and batteries as well) have a significant internal equivalent series resistance.  When you measured the voltage during the test did you first stop the current and then take the voltage reading?  That's what you have to do, to at least not have this internal resistance drop the voltage as the current is flowing and thereby confuse your voltage readings.  Things are more complex then this simple model, but it suffices for this explanation.

Offline poynt99

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #2785 on: November 26, 2009, 05:36:20 AM »
Paul.

What type of current source are you using? Was the current steady while it was charging?

Try a similar test with your biggest electrolytic type cap and compare.

How are you calculating the capacitance?

.99

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #2785 on: November 26, 2009, 05:36:20 AM »
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Offline poynt99

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #2786 on: November 26, 2009, 05:38:52 AM »
The ESR of the BCAP0650 is 0.8m Ohms.

.99

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #2787 on: November 26, 2009, 05:40:05 AM »
EMdevices,

Tomorrow I can analzye the caps resistane, but lets remember these are ultracaps. The datasheet of my bcap650 shows resistance (ESR) of 0.8mOhm (8e-4 ohms). 0.8mOhm * 199.2mA = 0.159 mV. That would not explain this effect.

Paul

Offline EMdevices

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #2788 on: November 26, 2009, 05:46:43 AM »
Capacitance = C
Total Charge = Q
Voltage = V

C = Q/V      (by definition)

so we don't know the total charge in the capacitor (unless we integrated from zero, as my hybrid vehicle does)

So we use a difference

C * V1 = Q1,         and C * V2 = Q2

then we take the difference

Q1 - Q2 = C V1 - C V2 = C (V1 - V2)

but Q1 - Q2 , which is the total charge that flowed, is equal to the current multiplied by the duration of time that it flowed or I*t     (current is coulombs/sec)

so putting it all together

C = I*t / (V1-V2)


P.S.   Paul I see your posting above mine.  Yes they seem to have a low ESR, but it varies.  Everything they spec has some reference/standard they go by, like Dr Stiffler hinted at. I don't believe for a minute that the resistance stays at that low value no matter what current is drawn.

Oh, one other suggestion,  why not start with the same voltage and drain it at two different rates?  Also why work with such low voltages, go up to 1 volt or more.

Offline PaulLowrance

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Re: Selfrunning cold electricity circuit from Dr.Stiffler
« Reply #2789 on: November 26, 2009, 05:48:30 AM »
C = I*t / (V1-V2)

That's the equation I used.  :)

 

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