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Author Topic: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.  (Read 150510 times)

Offline Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #30 on: October 18, 2007, 06:27:45 PM »
You are right that the Back EMF is very high at sharp switching.
If the Back EMF is shorted out or kept low (any recover will lower the EMF voltage) the time of
back pull will increase as well. The only way to get almost non existent back pull time is to
let the Back EMF voltage climb as high as it wants, at the expense of recoverable energy.
But the spiral motor must not get any back pull when the rotor pass by the electro magnet.
The more you try to recover the Back EMF the lower the EMF voltage gets and the longer the
electro magnet is in back pull mode and preventing the rotor from a smooth ride.

This is why I estimate approx 10-25% of recoverable energy. The rest must be added from
outside the electro magnet. But using the Flux Booster will minimize the amount of added energy.
The whole point of the spiral motor is that it will provide great torque at high speeds and the
output from the mounted generator will provide more than enough power to become self sustaining.
But we can't know for sure until the whole setup (motor and generator) is built and tested.

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Offline Paul-R

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #31 on: October 19, 2007, 06:32:22 PM »
The impression that I get from luminaries like Tom Bearden and Patrick Kelly is that the BEMF is a *good thing*. It is a route to get at zero point energy. Don't knock it. Love it. Use it.
Paul.

Offline Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2007, 07:02:21 PM »
I guess Tom-B haven't really got any personal experience from working with Back EMF himself.
Trying to recover the BEMF will increase back pull time wich could in some cases be of
good use but in a Wankel or the Hilden-Brand motor it will cause back pull and this will
cause the motor to run less efficient or not run at all.

In a switched power supply circuit you actually recover almost all of the BEMF.
This is how switched power supplies can reach these high efficiencies of 95-99%.
They don't care about back pull because there is no moving parts. But a motor do care.

I have many years first hand experience of Back EMF from my daily work.
But I still don't know it all. ;)
I'm still learning every day and that is what makes life so good and enlightening. ;D

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #32 on: October 19, 2007, 07:02:21 PM »
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Offline ecc

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2007, 12:42:37 PM »
Hi Honk,
Great work, great concept! Thanks for sharing this.
I was inspired to print and study the drawings and couldn't help having questions popping up. I wondered how the magnets will be sitting in the  magnet holder. Why steel? Will you be able to experiment with the shape of the magnet rings to adjust the quantity, distance and angle of the magnets? Could there be an advantage to follow a natural spiral (snail) path for the two segments?
You mention a flux booster and controller. What's that?
Sorry about so many questions but most likely more people will be interested and grateful to hear more.Thanks.
Cheers
ecc

Offline Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2007, 03:22:24 PM »
Hi and welcome to this forum.
I'll try to answer your questions the best I can.

1) Which magnet do you mean. The stator magnet or rotor magnets?
    Anyway, both the rotor and stator magnets will be keyed in place and cannot move out of position.
    If you download the ealier posted F.B.D.I.S.S.M_v2.2_blueprint.zip you can see the stator steel layout with its keys.
    In the earliar posts I hadn't finished the rotor magnet key holding mechanism. But you can see the rotor keys in the new pic.

2) I have chosen stainless steel to hold the stator magnets because this is easy to precision cut by laser.
    This material is also strong enough to withstand the attracting forces between stator and rotor magnets.
    The rotor will be made of light weight aluminum and magnetic back iron to enchance the magnetic properties of the rotor magnets.

3) I have used a formula that calculates the distance and angle in certain positions and then I use magnetsales
    calculator to calculate the force. http://www.magnetsales.com/Design/Calc_filles/PullAndPushBetween2RectMagnets.asp
    I enter the distance of both ends of the rotor magnet towards the stator magnets and get the difference in force.
    Then I split it by two to get the mean value. And this I convert it into ft-lbs and enter it into the Hp formula.
   
4) I have calculated many types of spirals to get the most powerful twist towards the narrow end position.
    When I chose to split the spiral in two halfes to balance the force against the ballbearings I got even better rotational twist force.
    Finaly I couldn't get more force from the spiral angle. Further calculations just shifted around the area where the most torque was
    created. Then I was pleased and designed the spiral in my cad system using the best output from my torque formula.

5) A Flux Booster Controller is simply a special type of controller I have designed. It's main purpose it to get rid
    of the long charge time of a high inductance coil. It has lot's of other features as well, such as being self runner prepared.
    An ordinary strong electro magnet can have a charge delay as long as 1 Second before reaching full magnetic field.
    Using the Flux Booster it will minimise the flux build-up time to less than 200uS = 0.0002 Sec.
    Inside a fast spinning motor this is very crusial to reach maximum performance.
    Another feature is that it also cuts down on power requirement to run a coil at high speed.
    Once initialized it just takes static power to maintain the strong field of the electro magnets.
    Typically it lowers the power need of the coil by 10-15 times. When going for overunity this is a good feature to have access to.
    You can read more about the controller here: http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=2386.msg38801#msg38801

I hope this clear things up for you.
« Last Edit: October 23, 2007, 10:36:20 PM by Honk »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2007, 03:22:24 PM »
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Offline ecc

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #35 on: October 22, 2007, 07:06:01 AM »
Hi Honk,

Thanks so much for taking the time to answer all those questions. Looks like you really have coverered all angles! ANo more questions for now.
As your answers no.3 and 4 show you were able to find a layout geometry with your split spiral which likely might surpass the Paul Sprain design. I really hope it works well so that many of us can replicate it and start making a difference.
 I also looked up the link for the flux booster controller and followed the thread. There seems to be another amazing piece of electronics waiting in the wings and it sounds as if a lot of the experimenters working in O/U electro magnetics  could benefit from the improved coil control. Hope to hear more about it soon. Any news about the Jack Hildenbrand project? Thanks again.

Cheers
ecc

Offline Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2007, 08:55:12 AM »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #36 on: October 22, 2007, 08:55:12 AM »
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Offline ecc

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2007, 07:34:28 AM »
Hi Honk,
Just out of curiosity I inquired with a local magnet importer to find out the ballpark figures for the magnets. I gave the measures from your post as

The Rotor magnets:
Length (depth) = 3.149" (80mm)
Width             = 1.5"     (38.1mm)
Thickness       = 1.181" (30mm)

The Stator magnets:
Length (depth) = 3.149" (80mm)
Width             = 1.181" (30mm)
Thickness       = 0.157" (4mm)

Is that still correct?  I also understand that the magnet axis  N/S  runs along the 80mm Legth.
Maybe the company is  not quite cutting edge as I was told that the sizes are non standard and would have to be custom made. Additionally they advised that it might be quite difficult to magnetize the material throughout the 80mm, possibly quite costly and take a few weeks.
Hmm, sounds quite expensive - which led to the thought , if the  split  spiral motor concept could be successfully realised with standard size magnets. That would make it a lot easier and affordable to replicate for others. What are your thoughts?

The flux booster controller - are you at liberty and willing to divulge more?
The properties of this device just sound absolutely amazing and seem to go against the behaviour of coils as understood by me. It almost sounds as if  the electro magnet would behave more like a capacity than an inductance, given the speed of field buildup , collapse and reversal as well as power saving that you suggest are possible with your controller. So I was wrecking my head trying to figure out what could be going on. Not much success though.

Cheers

Offline Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2007, 08:17:19 AM »
Thank you for getting a quote.
It always nice with some help.

Unfortionatly you have gotten the motor principle all wrong  :D
If the magnets were magnetized along the the 80mm axis there would be no attraction between rotor and stator magnets.
The right direction is magnetized through width. The rotor magnets along the 38.1mm and the stator along the 30mm.

Please get a another quote from your local vendor using these new numbers and see what he can come up with.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2007, 08:17:19 AM »
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Offline ecc

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2007, 10:54:53 AM »
Yep, I thought the stator poles would have to face the rotor poles directly, still not clear on this. Will have a look at the FEMM files. Request for quote send for 150 and 8 pieces with a few spares. Mentioned that I will post his prices on a forum.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2007, 10:59:42 AM »
If you split the stator segments into 3 segments instead of 2, you will not have 2 rotor arm magnets going through the sticky spot at the same time. 3 rotor magnets will be providing rotational forces each time 1 gets to the rough place.
I don't think the number og rotor magnets have any affect. If the rotor will rotate with 3 magnets, it would run with 4 or 2 magnets. The difference is the amount of reactive force and cogging. The interesting part is the result of the sum of force and counterforce in one revolution. If the magnets accelerate to a speed that overcome the sticky point, you'll have a perpetual rotation regardless of number of magnets. To achieve this, one or more magnets have to reduce its magnetical force when it passes the sticky point, and get stronger when this point has been passed. What magnet can do that without influence of some kind of external energy?
Iron parts? No, these will influence on the magnet itself and get stick to it.
A magnet will reduce its magnetic field by passing a shortcuted air coil. Is that the solution? No. The magnet will feel drag, or some resistance to movement at that point, and you will reduce the speed at the sticky point anyway.

If you can imagine a doughnut magnet, magnetized radially (Equivalent to an infinit number of magnets in the rotor). Make this magnet to spin, and you have solved the problem. The question is HOW?

Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2007, 10:59:42 AM »
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Offline Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2007, 11:46:38 AM »
If the magnets accelerate to a speed that overcome the sticky point, you'll have a perpetual rotation regardless of number of magnets.

There is no way possible to get past the sticky point by pure speed in this type of design. All momentum gained in the loop would get lost.

The essense of the Wankel is to design it to rotate using the minimum amount of added electric current going into the electro magnets.
The electro magnet should firstly attract the rotor into its area and then instantaneously flip the field to repel the rotor magnet into next loop.
The best magnets are made of Supermalloy and the activated window of the electromagnet must be timed to the minimum possible to avoid end spiral breaking.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #42 on: October 25, 2007, 12:51:23 PM »
If the magnets accelerate to a speed that overcome the sticky point, you'll have a perpetual rotation regardless of number of magnets.

There is no way possible to get past the sticky point by pure speed in this type of design. All momentum gained in the loop would get lost.

The essense of the Wankel is to design it to rotate using the minimum amount of added electric current going into the electro magnets.
The electro magnet should firstly attract the rotor into its area and then instantaneously flip the field to repel the rotor magnet into next loop.
The best magnets are made of Supermalloy and the activated window of the electromagnet must be timed to the minimum possible to avoid end spiral breaking.

My point was in the first place that if the rotor accelerated enough, the speed of the mass will for sure overcome the sticky point. In the second place, this cannot be done without adding ekstra energy. Then the question was simply where to get this energy from.

The Wankel: The little amount of energy you put in, will be at most the little amount of energy you get out. No matter the complexity, simplicity, or arrangment of electromagnets etc. The energy you put in will be the most you'll get out. The Wankel design is nothing more than a electromotor - in fact it seems to work pretty much like a regular brushless motor. But maybe overunity is not the goal?

Vidar

Offline Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #43 on: October 25, 2007, 01:25:27 PM »
The Wankel: The little amount of energy you put in, will be at most the little amount of energy you get out
Have you ever designed and built a Wankel motor of your own?
It seems like your just guessing here.

No matter the complexity, simplicity, or arrangment of electromagnets etc. The energy you put in will be the most you'll get out.
Most of the torque is created by the natural twisting force of the neo magnets, not by the electro magnets.
So how can you determine that I'll only get out what I put in?

The Wankel design is nothing more than a electromotor - in fact it seems to work pretty much like a regular brushless motor.
I have designed a couple of BLDC motors and also their controllers in my career. And I see no resemblence to a regular motor whatsoever.
In a regular motor all of the torque is created by the electro magnets continuously working towards the permanent magnets. Push and pull.
And when the motor increases in speed it will output Back Voltage. When the Back Voltage has reached the same level as the working
voltage that is feed to the motor it stops to accelerate. This is the regular motors rated RPM level.
When you load the regular electric motor you will lower the RPM and the Back Voltage vill decrease as well.
The difference in applied voltage and the generated Back Voltage divided by the internal resistance of the motor equals the current going into the motor.
Simply Ohms law. This is why a regular motor consumes more current when loaded harder.
I can tell you for sure that a Wankel does not operate in this way at all. You better study regular motors before comparing those two motor types.
No offense towards you. I just wanted to explain how it really works.

But maybe overunity is not the goal?
Of course OU is the goal. Otherwise I would not spend time at this forum!

Offline Honk

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Re: F.B.D.I.S.S.M - Flux.Boosted.Dual.Induction.Split.Spiral.Motor.
« Reply #44 on: October 25, 2007, 01:49:33 PM »
Then the question was simply where to get this energy from.

The idea of the Wankel is to add a minimum of energy to keep the natural magnetic rotation continuously going on.
You can see it like a magnetic amplifier.
The torque of the magnets rotating is kept alive by a very small energy input.
The output is the sum of all torque x speed from the motor while the electro magnets are turned off.
Output = Torque x speed - input energy.
Of course the electro magnets will add torque while operating but this part is not OU.

 

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