Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

User Menu

Custom Search

Author Topic: DISSOCIATING WATER, A KEELY Project  (Read 65176 times)

hansvonlieven

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2558
    • Keelytech
Re: DISSOCIATING WATER, A KEELY Project
« Reply #15 on: October 05, 2007, 11:12:34 PM »
The Transmitter

The purpose of the transmitter is twofold. It is a convenient way to carry the composite audio signal to the point of interaction with the body under study and  it will also allow me to test the validity of my theory of the role of regenerative feedback in Keely?s system of progressive subdivision of wavelength.

In the design of the transmitter we have to make two fundamental decisions. The first is what system we use Amplitude Modulation or Frequency Modulation. This decision is an easy one to make.

Keely?s system relies on precise harmonic relationships between the frequencies involved. Only AM guarantees that relationship, as in AM the carrier frequency is stable throughout. All that remains is to choose a carrier frequency that is a harmonic of any and all audio frequencies involved.

As in FM, by nature of the system, the carrier frequency changes over a narrow band, incompatible vibrations are introduced that will generate unwanted beat frequencies and nodal points especially in the higher harmonics where we need to have the harmonic relationships as pure as possible to generate the effects we are after.

The second choice we must make is the frequency of the carrier wave. To start with I will stick with a frequency band between 40 and 42 Khz though I have reservations about this.

I know that a frequency of 42800 Hz is widely quoted as the frequency that Keely used to dissociate water. I wish someone would show me where Keely actually says this. The only references to that particular frequency I can find is in relation to gravity, magnetism and electricity.

As to frequencies used to dissociate water Keely says:

?The sound vibrations of themselves have no power whatever to induce dissociation, even in its lowest form. Certain differential, dual, triple and quadruple chords give introductory impulses which excite an action on molecular masses, liquid and gaseous, that increase their range of molecular motion and put them in that receptive state for sympathetic vibratory interchange which favours molecular disintegration.?

And

?Example: ? Taking the chord mass of the disintegrator B flat, or any chord mass that may be represented by the combined association of all the mechanical parts of its structure (no two structures being alike in their chord masses), taking B flat, the resonators of said structure are set at B flat, first octave, B flat, third octave, and B flat, ninth octave, by drawing out the caps of resonators until the harmony of thirds, sixths, and ninths are reached; which a simple movement of the fingers on the diatonic scale, at the head, will determine by the tremulous action which is highly sensible, to the touch, on said caps. The caps are then rigidly fixed in their different positions by set screws.?


Sorry guys, but that does not sound like 42800 Hz to me. There are a number of other quotes by Keely in relation to the disintegration of water where he makes it quite clear that three chords are involved, not a single frequency as so many have stated.

Nevertheless, as a CARRIER FREQUENCY a frequency in the high ultrasonic might well be suitable so I will start with that frequency band in the trials.

The transmitter need not be an elaborate affair. A simple circuit involving two 555 timers was suggested and our first prototype is currently being built along these lines.

I am enclosing the circuit diagram here.

At this stage I would like to point out that I am not an electronics engineer. I can read and understand circuit diagrams, even build electronic devices, but the design of electronic circuits is outside my area of expertise. So please feel free to make suggestions and/or  submit circuit ideas that are suitable. I would be grateful.

Hans von Lieven






hansvonlieven

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2558
    • Keelytech
Re: DISSOCIATING WATER, A KEELY Project
« Reply #16 on: October 07, 2007, 01:15:30 PM »
Update on the transmitter,

Had an E-mail from mramos. The prototype transmitter is built and is undergoing tests at the moment. Here is what it says:

OK, there was an error on the PCB, added a 2 two wires.  We have 0-50Khz
probably.  I set it to 42.9K to take picture.  Did not hook the
scope up to see the duty cycle, but the calcs were to be 50/50 at 42Khz.

New problem, the modulator is not working, so I assume another wire
missing.  The schematic capture missed VCC on two spots.  I will know in
about 30 minutes.  Does not matter what it looks like long as it works. 
hehehe..  If it make HHO, then we make a pretty one with all the wires
on the fiberglass.

The output is 200mA.  I will hook it up and see if I see anything with
no audio modulated.  But I just have a feeling we are going to
want to add a 20-30amp FET to it.  :)

Mike.


The photo shows the populated PCB and carrier frequency test.

Hans von Lieven
« Last Edit: October 07, 2007, 04:31:28 PM by hansvonlieven »

hansvonlieven

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2558
    • Keelytech
Re: DISSOCIATING WATER, A KEELY Project
« Reply #17 on: October 07, 2007, 10:36:32 PM »
Turning the RF into a Pressure Wave

As I have said earlier, the use of simple electrodes suspended in water, with or without an electrolyte, is probably not enough to arrive at the phenomena Keely talks about.

I am aware that Meyers, Kanzius and Boyd do just that and it might work to a degree, so we must try this, perhaps with a palladium plated electrode a la Fleischmann and Pons.

To really emulate Keely however we must convert the RF signal into a pressure wave.

This is where we start to have real problems.

Keely used acoustic resonators in an atmospheric medium. As any gas will respond to any and all induced sounds and will resonate regardless of frequency we must have a transducer that behaves in the same fashion.

This immediately rules out loudspeakers and ultrasonic transducers due to their limited frequency response. Unless someone here can come up with a transducer that I am unaware of the only suitable system that meets these criteria is a plasma transducer.

Two systems come to mind here. First, the traditional way of modulating an ionised flame and secondly what is colloquially known as the ?singing Tesla coil?.

For obvious reasons the idea of an ionised flame is not a system I favour, it is messy, unpredictable at times, and there is a lot of unwanted heat.

The Tesla coil has its own problems since unwanted frequencies are likely to occur.

The (totally unproven) idea I am toying with is to use a dielectric container filled with ionised air or gas that is electrically stimulated into resonance.

The two proposed concepts attached might work. I welcome your ideas here as the whole idea is very much still in the concept stage and totally untried. I will not be able to put this to the test until the transmitter is fully developed.

Any comment or alternative proposal is welcome here, so please let?s have some ideas.

As ion source I propose either high voltage DC or a piece of radioactive material such as can be found in smoke detectors.

Hans von Lieven

allama

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: DISSOCIATING WATER, A KEELY Project
« Reply #18 on: October 08, 2007, 12:58:18 AM »
Hello, Hans. What do you think about to use an electrostatic speaker to generate the pressure wave?. Thats only an idea...  :)

Pirate88179

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8366
Re: DISSOCIATING WATER, A KEELY Project
« Reply #19 on: October 08, 2007, 03:57:00 AM »
Hans:

I am just tossing this out there from way out in left field. I am familiar with stringed instruments (piano, guitar, etc.) I was just thinking what if, you had string of a given dia. and length which would produce a given note (frequency) and suspended that in water?  I know the water would have a dampening effect on the vibration of the string which you might be able to compensate for once you determined what that might be. And if the string/s were set into motion via an electromagnet, i.e. like a doorbell, would this not introduce the vibrations into the water at that vibrating frequency?
I know doorbells operate on 60 Hz due to the 60 cycle current but, could not one vary this current to produce any frequency desired given x dia. and x length of the string? (wire)  If you had your three stings vibrating in the water at your target frequencies would this not produce the similar effect you are after?  Maybe only a portion of the string needs to be in the water to vibrate the molecules at the three frequencies called for by Keely.

As you are already aware, I don't know much about Keely's work and would not know anything about it except for your posts. I was just thinking of a possible way to introduce your frequencies into the water in an efficient manner utilizing mechanical means.

Bill

rMuD

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 76
Re: DISSOCIATING WATER, A KEELY Project
« Reply #20 on: October 08, 2007, 04:09:02 AM »
The problem with digital sound reproduction or creation is that the signal is a square wave, no matter what sound is produced . Look into it,  you will find the digital can not replicate a sound in its pure form. There will always be the square wave breaking up your sound pattern.

This is the nature of digital and its 1s and 0s or on and off
IronHead

Kinda true, the output stage amplifier usually has a filter on it to slow down the slew rate..  meaning smooth it out.. can be done with something as simple as a resistor and a cap..  just remember audio output from a PC is far from optimal for re-creating a repeatable signal..  most use a codec instead of a DAC and are AC coupled.  If you want to use a PC, it's best to get a serial DAC that accepts a SPFID digital audio signal, and use a TL084 op amp (General Purpose high speed) to drive the signal to the amplifier

Another choice is finding a Sound Card that uses a DAC vs a CODEC and just short of the cap on the final output stage..  Think Turtle Beach makes some good ones a friend used for Signal Generation


Hope that helps



hansvonlieven

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2558
    • Keelytech
Re: DISSOCIATING WATER, A KEELY Project
« Reply #21 on: October 08, 2007, 07:53:30 AM »
Hello, Hans. What do you think about to use an electrostatic speaker to generate the pressure wave?. Thats only an idea...  :)

G'day allama,

It's not only an idea, it's a bloody good suggestion. This is an absolute must try in my opinion. The poor bass response is not a problem here as I am after the upper harmonics. I will keep you posted on what comes out of this.

Thanks a lot. This is the kind of response I am hoping for.

Greetings from Australia

Hans von Lieven

allama

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: DISSOCIATING WATER, A KEELY Project
« Reply #22 on: October 08, 2007, 09:36:24 AM »
Hello again. I was thinking about this, and this is a possible test enviroment. The squares on the tubes must be rounds. I calculate the tune tube lenght with v = 340 m/s (lambda is aprox. 8 mm at 42,9  KHz).
The refraction on air/water change can be a problem to make coincidence with the two pressure waves. The water depot must have plain walls, not cylindrical.

hansvonlieven

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2558
    • Keelytech
Re: DISSOCIATING WATER, A KEELY Project
« Reply #23 on: October 08, 2007, 10:07:43 AM »
Good boy allama,

I am impressed. This is very close to what Keely did with his acoustic resonators. Please give me a day or so to reply to this properly as all of a sudden I can see a way that was a bit foggy to me only a few hours ago.

Thank you very much. It is such a pleasure to see talent and inspiration combined.

Hans von Lieven

allama

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: DISSOCIATING WATER, A KEELY Project
« Reply #24 on: October 09, 2007, 08:29:37 AM »
Hello again. I was thinking... :D. Lambda isn?t critical, only if the water depot is thin, less than 8mm. In other case, the colision between the two pressure waves will be out of the depot center.
Are you sure about use your modulator?. The modulation must be a little erratic, because the carrier isn?t sinusoidal wave. Multiple harmonics will be present at output...

Great work with your devices... Good luck. ;D

hansvonlieven

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2558
    • Keelytech
Re: DISSOCIATING WATER, A KEELY Project
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2007, 09:00:25 AM »
G'day allama,

The whole idea of Keely's system is the generation of compatible harmonics way beyond the audible, The primary chords are designed to support the formation of these harmonics. This way incredibly high frequency pressure waves are generated that, according to Keely are capable of reaching right into the heart of matter and open it up to manipulation.

If you want to do a bit of reading up on it go to my website http://www.keelytech.com and have a look around. All the fundamentals of his system are there. If you have any questions just drop me a line, you will find my E-mail address there if you don't want to go through the forum.

Hans von Lieven

hansvonlieven

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2558
    • Keelytech
Re: DISSOCIATING WATER, A KEELY Project
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2007, 09:01:57 PM »
Frequencies

Keely?s fundamental approach

Keely holds that all matter and all forms of energy are fundamentally composed of three vibratory streams. He used different terms for these forces depending on when he wrote the articles before finally deciding on radiative, focalising and dominant.

I. The Radiative : called also the `Dispersing,' the `Propulsive,' the `Positive,' and the `Enharmonic.'
II. The Focalising: called also the `Negative,' the `Negative Attractive,' the `Polarising,' and the `Harmonic.'
III. The Dominant: called also the `Etheric,' or the `Celestial.'

In common terms this means that the radiative is a force that pushes away from the neutral centre, the focalising is the force that pulls towards the neutral centre and the dominant is the glue that holds it all together. None of these forces can be thought of as existing independently of the other two.

He says that:

The relations of the currents in every flow are expressible in thirds, and it is experimentally demonstrable that the relation of the three are in the order named: as 33 1/3 : 66 2/3 : 100.

As no current or flow of force can be composed of one mode of vibration only, but must always be composed of three modes uniting in varying thirds, we have 1 x 2 x 3 = 6 as the total possible forms of sympathetic coincidence, or, to speak in ordinary terms, there can be six; and six only, possible forms of individualized being.
 
These are what Keely calls the six orders of atomic subdivision, or orders of vibratory motion, and he names them as follows:

I.       Molecular.
II.      Inter-molecular.
III.     Atomic.
IV.    Inter-atomic.
V.     Etheric.
VI.    Inter-etheric.

It is not entirely clear from his writings just what ?uniting in varying thirds? means, though logic would dictate that these relationships are in terms of amplitude.

When it comes to the actual frequencies Keely used to create his effects we have real problems determining what they were. Keely uses musical notation to describe the arrangement of his resonators. Because he deals with pure harmonic relationships we must not understand his references in terms of the commonly used tempered scale.

The musical scale used in Western music is a compromise. I don?t want to get here into a long winded dissertation on musical scale construction, a large and compelx subject, so I will confine myself to just one example. On a piano there are white keys and black keys. The white keys are full tones, the black keys half tones or semitones.

There is a black key between C and its adjacent note D. This key is called C-sharp or D-flat, depending on whether you use a sharp or flat scale. In reality C-sharp and D-flat are different notes, close together but perceptibly different. There are a number of reasons why this was done, playability and instrument construction being the chief ones.

For Keely?s purposes this was not good enough. To explain what note he means he uses three different scales, a diatonic scale, a harmonic scale and an enharmonic scale. Few people today know what the differences between the scales are. On top of that we do not know what concert pitch Keely used. We do know that is was not A=440, which is in common use today, that was not introduced as a standard until the 1950?s.

What I am saying here is that the reconstruction of Keely?s system requires a lot of experimentation.

To illustrate just how difficult it is to decode Keely I append one of his charts explaining the harmonic relationships within his system. This chart was designed and signed by Keely himself and is one of the few things by Keely?s hand that have survived. The companion volume to the charts with the detailed descriptions has not been located. It has vanished together with all his other published writings.
If you know musical theory and the chart means something to you I would appreciate some feedback. There are a number of these charts, if you are interested they are in the files section of the Keelytech Yahoo Group.

http://au.groups.yahoo.com/group/keelytech/files/

Hans von Lieven

allama

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 7
Re: DISSOCIATING WATER, A KEELY Project
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2007, 10:57:49 PM »
Hello, Hans. I?m going to try with two big tweeters, an audio power amplifier and a program named tonegenerator (can play up 16 tones mixed from 0 to 20 KHz). I will post the results. Bye.

hansvonlieven

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 2558
    • Keelytech
Re: DISSOCIATING WATER, A KEELY Project
« Reply #28 on: October 12, 2007, 09:27:43 PM »
Water

It absolutely amazes me that most researchers who are trying to disintegrate water do not study the substance at all but work from the assumption that water is simply H2O.
If that was the case the problems associated with splitting water into its components would have been solved long ago.

WATER (H2O) is the third most common molecule in the Universe (after H2 and CO), the most abundant substance on earth and the only naturally occurring inorganic liquid, a billion cubic kilometers of which reside in our oceans and 50 tons of which pass through our bodies in our lifetimes. It has been very well studied with a number of model structures having been proposed and refined.  Notwithstanding this, extensively hydrogen-bonded liquid water is unique with a number of anomalous properties. It has commonly been stated that no single model is able to explain all of its properties.

And we all thought water was the simplest of all things. Evidently not. Let?s have a closer look at it.

The first complication with water is that there are three different forms of hydrogen that we know of, each capable of combining with oxygen to produce a clear odourless liquid that on first inspection looks and feels like water.

The first, protium, is the one we commonly associate with hydrogen. It has at its core only one proton.

The second, deuterium, has one proton and one neutron at its core. In combination with oxygen it becomes D2H, which is known as heavy water. Deuterium occurs in water at about 0.015%.

The third, tritium, has one proton and two neutrons at its core. It is radioactive and has a half life of 12.32 years. It combines with oxygen to form tritiated water T2O. The low-energy beta radiation from tritium cannot penetrate human skin, so tritium is only dangerous if inhaled or ingested.

The three forms of hydrogen combine with water to form what we know as water and five isotopologues. (The isotopologue of a chemical species has at least one atom with a different number of neutrons.) This gives as the only possible combinations:

H-O-H     D-O-H     T-O-H     D-O-D     T-O-D     T-O-T  ,all of which occur in what we call water.

This is not where the complexity stops.

The following (in italics), including the animation is selected from available literature:

The water molecule may vibrate in a number of ways. In the gas state, the vibrations involve combinations of symmetric stretch (v1), asymmetric stretch (v3) and bending (v2) of the covalent bonds.



Shown below are the main vibrations occurring in water.

(http://www.keelytech.com/vibration.gif)
 
The main stretching band in liquid water is shifted to a lower frequency (v3, 3490 cm-1 and v1, 3280 cm-1) and the bending frequency increased (v2, 1644 cm-1) by hydrogen bonding.

It is clear that life on Earth depends on the unusual structure and anomalous nature of liquid water. Organisms consist mostly of liquid water. This water performs many functions and it can never be considered simply as an inert diluent; it transports, lubricates, reacts, stabilizes, signals, structures and partitions. The living world should be thought of as an equal partnership between the biological molecules and water.
In spite of much work, many of the properties of water are puzzling. Enlightenment comes from an understanding that water molecules form an infinite hydrogen-bonded network with localized and structured clustering. The middling strength of the connecting hydrogen bonds seems ideally suited to life processes, being easily formed but not too difficult to break. An important concept, often overlooked, is that liquid water is not homogeneous at the nanoscopic level.

There is obviously much more to it, but this is what it boils down to.

Water is not H-O-H, this is only a way of talking. True, for most purposes the formula holds, but it is only true for the average body of water over a longish period of time.

The hydrogen atoms in water are not rigidly fixed to the oxygen atoms and have a tendency to move around and find new oxygen partners. A bit like our modern society perhaps?

Even in true H2O molecules there are at least three distinct modes of vibration that have different frequencies.

Water has a tendency to form clusters.

Water has memory. Water can remember a structure it was forced to assume by being made to regroup in the presence of some foreign substance long after that foreign substance disappeared. (According to some scientists this explains the workability of homeopathy.)

There are sixty three known anomalities of water. To go into this subject here exceeds the scope of this paper. Suffice it to say we are dealing with a complex substance that has a life of its own and often behaves in ways difficult to forecast.

Therefore the dissociation of water with a vibratory stream is not an easy task and should not be undertaken lightly without reasonable safeguards especially as to explosions.


Hans von Lieven



« Last Edit: October 12, 2007, 11:31:19 PM by hansvonlieven »

Pirate88179

  • elite_member
  • Hero Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 8366
Re: DISSOCIATING WATER, A KEELY Project
« Reply #29 on: October 13, 2007, 09:05:32 AM »
Hans:

Very educational material, thanks.  I have read advertisments in Popular Science magazine selling a water treatment device that changes the hydrogen bond angle from 115 degrees to 109 degrees, or vise versa. (I don't really remember the actual angles but these are close) what does this mean?  Does the hydrogen bond angle impact your work?  I will attempt to find the advertisment to get the accurate figures but I can't see how this could be changed by a water filter system.  From what you have told us, and I agree, water is everywhere and so simple we don't understand it.  Kind of like gravity.

Bill