Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: clearchrome on September 26, 2007, 06:19:13 AM

Title: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: clearchrome on September 26, 2007, 06:19:13 AM
Hi,

I've had a successfull self runner for 1 min until the magnet detached themselft from a strong 3m tape (dual side type) and changed the rotor magnet configuration (Damn). I did not take the time to ajust perfectly the magnets perfectly first time, but it turn out that a unstability in the field cause a rotation field.

I have tried a 2nd replica with the same setup and more perfectly adjusted and positioned this time, but I think that doing it perfectly made the effect go away.

Here is the picture of my 2nd proto.


I will attempt to redo all my step from start.


Can anyone tell my what is wrong with this setup?
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: clearchrome on September 26, 2007, 06:21:15 AM
A better view of my setup, using small cubic 3/16 magnets.
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: clearchrome on September 26, 2007, 06:25:45 AM
I made myself a curved stick from several (7 ) the same cubic magnets for the stator part, this will not change in my 2nd attempt as it ran pretty good with it. The curve of this stator is not circle, looks more lire a parabolic shape and it is in repel mode to the rotor magnets.
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: clearchrome on September 26, 2007, 06:31:24 AM
The main idear was to validate this design

got it from  http://www.freeenergynews.com/Directory/Howard_Johnson_Motor/index.html
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: clearchrome on September 26, 2007, 06:33:24 AM
Here is the 1st Proto ...Actually not much to show here ...just the actual cd with 3m tape on it.
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: clearchrome on September 26, 2007, 06:59:54 AM
Also ... I've been experimenting on my own " halbach magnet array" . I used the same principle as described here

http://www.matchrockets.com/ether/halbach.html

but i made a 3d arrangement of this with 9 magnet cubes.

      o
      V
   o>x<o
       ^ 
       o


-This "+" configuration has the advantage of tripling (concentrating) the magnet flux 3x more at the center.

-Another funny unexplained phenomenon I noticed is that I actually have 2 North poles facing both sides at the center!???

Another remark, , the flux is not cancelled on one side as the simple halbach array descibes ...(never got this to work anways) lol.



Legend:
  o = magnetic flux North pole coming out of magnet (North pole on Top)
  x = magnetic flux South pole going tru the magnet (North pole at Bottom)
  ^ =  magnetic flux North pole place at  0 degree of the magnet
  > =  magnetic flux North pole place at  90 degree of the magnet
  V=  magnetic flux North pole place at  180 degree of the magnet
  < =  magnetic flux North pole place at  270 degree of the magnet

In the pic, you see a 30cm ruler with "crazy glued cubic magnets" on it.
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :
Post by: Freezer on September 26, 2007, 07:27:32 AM
I can appreciate your frustration, as I've put together many failed magnet configurations with no luck.  I'm am still trying and will continue to try and make it work.  It does almost seem impossible, but remember, its only impossible till someone does it.  Thinking about the reward helps as well, no not money, but seeing it spin on its own forever..  Its possible!  Its possible!  Maybe give us some 2d drawings, if you need some help creating a drawing I could possibly help, but as far as telling you whats wrong and why doesn't it work, I dont know.  If people knew, we would have a working setup by now.
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :
Post by: Thaelin on September 26, 2007, 08:15:33 AM
   Howard Johnson said that for it to work, an imbalance must be created and then nature would try to correct it.
That is what will make it work. Keep on going for it. You had one, so you found the key. Just reaffirm it now.

thaelin
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: clearchrome on September 26, 2007, 02:07:55 PM
Thanks guys, having people beleive in me is really encouraging me to open source everything I find. I'm really lacking sleep since my sucess, I'm just going crazy over this ... when you know it works ... my hearth is just over exited and pumping heat and I can think straigth anymore. I will have to leave this for a day or two and come back again when I calm down.

My mail goal is to cut down on those 500$ hydro bills for 2 months usage I've been paying last winters. My expenses and income are not balanced at all (so is the motor! ;) ) .. tend to go in negative. So I'm extremely motivated to get everthing working again ASAP.

I know there is are several magnetic simulator out there. I've been trying to get a hold on one of them, what is the best one I can use? Is there any demos or free ones? What is the simplest one I can use?.

I'm also wondering ... with all the computing power we have our hands (CORE DUAL 3GHZ+), the simulator can do the working labor for us!

I need a magnet simulator that can figure out the correct magnet cube positionning from my initial trial setup and moving the magnets according to a specific mathematic formula pattern until I get the rotation field effect.

The only way I can prove this to you guys is by running a computer simulation so  that I can base my magnet assembly according to it. Also it will help me understand the basic principles for easy replication with the tolerance limits and variables of its construction.

Let our computers do the labor work. If one can decrypt a complete human DNA sequences in a couple of days, i'm sure there exists a simple program that someone can do to find the answer. If not, i'll propably do one myself in VB or Excel.

Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: markdansie on September 26, 2007, 03:09:58 PM
great effort keep up the good work......if you get it running again film it as it will give you valuable insights frame by frame of what is happenning
Mark
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: clearchrome on September 26, 2007, 04:22:03 PM
Ok, I beleive I found the main key of my working design.

In every magnet motor design I saw to this date, as a key point missing explaining why they tend to be a failure design.

This key point is the fact that magnet are FIXED (stable) to a specific surface.
                Stable = Balanced = will stop eventually

What I mean is that every magnet in rotors or stators are FIXED and does not move to adapt the moving field and generate the same boring magnetic field around their configuration and leads to a stop after few turns.

The difference between my first setup and my second is that I removed the 3M dual sided tape. Without this tape, no matter what setup I put my magnets in , I had failures.

Here come the hearth pumping knowledge that made my success.

If you think in a more 3d aspect of magnetism, to make an unstable magnetic field , the configation needs to change in a way that the stator or rotor has no time to adapt for stabilisation.

A way I manage to do this is by having free floating magnet placed on a 3M tape. As the repel mode magnet passes over the magnet on the 3M tape, the magnet position changes, and in turn changes the magnetic configation of the global field.

Is there a Magnetic field simulators that takes this into account? Rotating magnets?


Will post a hand picture drawing of what I mean later on...

Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: clearchrome on September 26, 2007, 04:32:05 PM
great effort keep up the good work......if you get it running again film it as it will give you valuable insights frame by frame of what is happenning
Mark


Yes I will , beleive me! loll I'm mad that I haven't done this the first time because I never expected a sucess that fast.

The problem that I had is that the 3M tape is not holding the magnets in place, they tend to move with time as the glue is not strong enouph. As soon as I find a valid solution, I will have my cam beside me all times.

Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: clearchrome on September 26, 2007, 05:14:39 PM
I'm looking for 5 types of mini non magnetic bearings to prove to you guys that the concept is working.

Type of possible bearings that would sit on a 3/16" magnetic cube

 X,Y, XY., Rot-C, Rot-CW.

-The "X" bearing would only allow X axis pitch movement of the magnet.
-The "Y" bearing would only allow Y axis roll movement of the magnet.
-The "X-Y" bearing would allow X-Y (pitch and roll) movements of the magnet.
-The "Rot-C"    would only allow Z axis Clockwise rotation.
-The "Rot-CW" would only allow Z axis CounterclockWise rotation.

See the point!?
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: eavogels on September 26, 2007, 08:10:33 PM
Hi.
I have nothing to solve your problems, but I want to say that I think that your observation is perhaps the solution for many others.
How often did we hear about device that woked as long as a stator was held by hand? All those devices failed as soon as the stator was mounted. But perhaps the stator should be flexibel mounted (like your Scotch tape)? Perhaps the Minato wheel works when the stator can move a bit back and forward?
Thanks you for sharing your observation.
Regards,
Eric Vogels.
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: jeffc on September 26, 2007, 09:32:45 PM
Ok, I beleive I found the main key of my working design.

In every magnet motor design I saw to this date, as a key point missing explaining why they tend to be a failure design.

This key point is the fact that magnet are FIXED (stable) to a specific surface.
                Stable = Balanced = will stop eventually

What I mean is that every magnet in rotors or stators are FIXED and does not move to adapt the moving field and generate the same boring magnetic field around their configuration and leads to a stop after few turns.

The difference between my first setup and my second is that I removed the 3M dual sided tape. Without this tape, no matter what setup I put my magnets in , I had failures.

Here come the hearth pumping knowledge that made my success.

If you think in a more 3d aspect of magnetism, to make an unstable magnetic field , the configation needs to change in a way that the stator or rotor has no time to adapt for stabilisation.

A way I manage to do this is by having free floating magnet placed on a 3M tape. As the repel mode magnet passes over the magnet on the 3M tape, the magnet position changes, and in turn changes the magnetic configation of the global field.

Is there a Magnetic field simulators that takes this into account? Rotating magnets?


Will post a hand picture drawing of what I mean later on...



Keep up the great work!  I built a drawing that shows using the tape in an "L" configuration on the magnets.  As the force is applied, the tape allows the magnet to tilt/shift, which might be a way to reproduce the effect you saw before.  IF this turns out to be true, I suggest you look at using a real hinge, as it would be more stable than tape but still allow the rotational movement.

Regards,
jeffc
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: clearchrome on September 26, 2007, 09:45:34 PM
Hi.
I have nothing to solve your problems, but I want to say that I think that your observation is perhaps the solution for many others.
How often did we hear about device that woked as long as a stator was held by hand? All those devices failed as soon as the stator was mounted. But perhaps the stator should be flexibel mounted (like your Scotch tape)? Perhaps the Minato wheel works when the stator can move a bit back and forward?
Thanks you for sharing your observation.
Regards,
Eric Vogels.

Youre absolutly right!
   If you look also at the Torbay motor from Argentine, well guess what! You actually see moving parts as the field configuration is constantly changing ...this concept is starting to be a valid start.


Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: clearchrome on September 26, 2007, 10:10:46 PM



@jeffc

Thanks!

Yes, I can use that to cover the X motion of the magnet.

As for the X-Y I was thinking of a spring mounted magnet, look at my picture. The spring diameter and height would have to be determined with experimentation.

For the rotation, I'm still thinking. (I keep thinking of those key wrench, but not very handy here)! Ha!
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: Low-Q on September 26, 2007, 10:50:20 PM
Hi.
I have nothing to solve your problems, but I want to say that I think that your observation is perhaps the solution for many others.
How often did we hear about device that woked as long as a stator was held by hand? All those devices failed as soon as the stator was mounted. But perhaps the stator should be flexibel mounted (like your Scotch tape)? Perhaps the Minato wheel works when the stator can move a bit back and forward?
Thanks you for sharing your observation.
Regards,
Eric Vogels.
Helding by hand will not provide a "linear" or perfect repititive action when it's interfered with mechanical or magnetic setups. A physically flexible hardware device, will however be able to "copy" all motions in it for each turn of a rotor. The forces acting on a flexible hardware will move the flexible harware accordingly to the force introduced. Helding by hand, this flexibility in the hand can be counterforced by partly, whithout knowing it, holding it back by your own force - preventing the movement in the flexible hand to move accordingly to the force acting on it. Therefor, by use of a flexible hardware, all forces and counter forces will be identical for every turn. The flexibility of a hand is not a motion that is the exact copy of the previous motion. Therefor a device might work for a while in one direction, and the opposite direction when holding it by hand. I think the solution might be something else. A fixed and flexible hardware I do not think is the solution to OU.

Maybe one should play with magnetic cancellation which prevents sticky points. Then using the repelling forces only to provide rotation. Just an idea I have been playing with for a while :)


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: jeffc on September 26, 2007, 11:26:12 PM



@jeffc

Thanks!

Yes, I can use that to cover the X motion of the magnet.

As for the X-Y I was thinking of a spring mounted magnet, look at my picture. The spring diameter and height would have to be determined with experimentation.

For the rotation, I'm still thinking. (I keep thinking of those key wrench, but not very handy here)! Ha!

@clearchrome

Do you think that the original working version you made created enough motion to demand using a spring?  Having not witnessed it, I'm only trying to visualize.  I guess the 3M tape would have allowed motion in multiple directions, but I would also guess that the primary movement of the magnets would be away from the force applied.  Thats what made me think of a hinge type arrangement, because I can imagine a force causing a tilt, but if the force was strong enough to make the magnet move verticle in any significant way, I can't see how it would self run for about a minute, as I would think the magnet would come loose almost instantly. 

I'm concerned that with a spring approach, the magnet can move around in unproductive directions.  While I know we are looking for an unbalanced arrangement to create continuous motion, I think that magnets given too much freedom of motion will find their natural equalibrium (no motion).  So I think the trick is to give just a little freedom of motion, just enough to vary the flux in a way that prevents lockup. 

These are just thoughts, as I am no magnetic expert!  I'm just trying to envision your first version as it worked, and I think the motion of magnets was probably very small and limited primarilly to how the force could interact with the tension of the tape.

Regards,
jeffc
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: jeffc on September 27, 2007, 12:04:17 AM



@jeffc

Thanks!

Yes, I can use that to cover the X motion of the magnet.

As for the X-Y I was thinking of a spring mounted magnet, look at my picture. The spring diameter and height would have to be determined with experimentation.

For the rotation, I'm still thinking. (I keep thinking of those key wrench, but not very handy here)! Ha!


If multi-axis motion is really needed, take a look at this option.  Allows a range of motion but should be more limited/controlled than a spring.  Note you'd have to figure out how to make this work on a CD.  I think instead of a nail, you could just use an inverted flat head bolt and adjust a nut from the top to vary the amount of "play" the stiff L can make. 

Again, I'm not sure if you really need this much range of motion, because I can't visualize there being that much motion in your original model.  But if you do, this might provide the level of control and ability to vary the motion limits which could benefit the experiments.  I think it would be much harder to make spring variations (length, material, coil diameter, etc.) but with this arrangement you could more easily vary the height of the "nail" (or bolt/nut combo) and to position to vary the motion characteristics.

Regards,
jeffc
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: jeffc on September 27, 2007, 12:27:23 AM



@jeffc

Thanks!

Yes, I can use that to cover the X motion of the magnet.

As for the X-Y I was thinking of a spring mounted magnet, look at my picture. The spring diameter and height would have to be determined with experimentation.

For the rotation, I'm still thinking. (I keep thinking of those key wrench, but not very handy here)! Ha!


If multi-axis motion is really needed, take a look at this option.  Allows a range of motion but should be more limited/controlled than a spring.  Note you'd have to figure out how to make this work on a CD.  I think instead of a nail, you could just use an inverted flat head bolt and adjust a nut from the top to vary the amount of "play" the stiff L can make. 

Again, I'm not sure if you really need this much range of motion, because I can't visualize there being that much motion in your original model.  But if you do, this might provide the level of control and ability to vary the motion limits which could benefit the experiments.  I think it would be much harder to make spring variations (length, material, coil diameter, etc.) but with this arrangement you could more easily vary the height of the "nail" (or bolt/nut combo) and to position to vary the motion characteristics.

Regards,
jeffc
Thinking about your spring concept again.  I may have misunderstood that the reason you are thinking of a spring is so that you have something to pull the magnet back down to its original position.  I guess this is what the 3M tape may have done, allowed some motion but then was able to pull the magnet back to its original position (or close).  Is this what you think was happening? 

If so, maybe combine a spring with the multi-axis hinge I showed above to have controlled motion, with a pull by the spring to bring the magnet back to its initial position. 

One thought, if this can indeed be reproduced, increased rotation speed will increase effects of centripetal acceleration and that force might overcome the magnetic and spring effects.  I would think if the thing accelerates too much this might be a problem and it might only run for a couple of minutes before centripetal becomes an issue. 

Now, an interesting thought:  this centripetal effect might actually cause some positive side effects as well.  It might serve as a self braking system, so the thing won't run away.  Also, the system might begin to self pulse -- speed up until centripetal force causes a slow down, then when the slow down allows magnet to go back to starting postion, it will speed up again.  Who knows, maybe there will be harmonic effects as well!   ;D

Anyway the key is to get this thing running again as in your initial model.  If we can get that far with a repeatable arrangement, I'm sure all the smart people here can figure out how to adjust it.

Regards,
jeffc

Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: ledset on September 27, 2007, 01:21:35 AM
Hi, you could try and use 3M foam tape again, only this time, remove original adhesive with a solvent like alcohol or petrol and then use thin cyanoacralyte (crazy glue) on the flexible 3m tape substrate to prevent your problem of adhesive coming loose.

Another idea: If you want to seperate backward/forward rocking from side-to-side rocking then try and get hold of thin rubber tube and mount mags on that using cyano.

GOOD LUCK!
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: clearchrome on September 27, 2007, 01:41:47 AM



@jeffc

Thanks!

Yes, I can use that to cover the X motion of the magnet.

As for the X-Y I was thinking of a spring mounted magnet, look at my picture. The spring diameter and height would have to be determined with experimentation.

For the rotation, I'm still thinking. (I keep thinking of those key wrench, but not very handy here)! Ha!


If multi-axis motion is really needed, take a look at this option.  Allows a range of motion but should be more limited/controlled than a spring.  Note you'd have to figure out how to make this work on a CD.  I think instead of a nail, you could just use an inverted flat head bolt and adjust a nut from the top to vary the amount of "play" the stiff L can make. 

Again, I'm not sure if you really need this much range of motion, because I can't visualize there being that much motion in your original model.  But if you do, this might provide the level of control and ability to vary the motion limits which could benefit the experiments.  I think it would be much harder to make spring variations (length, material, coil diameter, etc.) but with this arrangement you could more easily vary the height of the "nail" (or bolt/nut combo) and to position to vary the motion characteristics.

Regards,
jeffc
Thinking about your spring concept again.  I may have misunderstood that the reason you are thinking of a spring is so that you have something to pull the magnet back down to its original position.  I guess this is what the 3M tape may have done, allowed some motion but then was able to pull the magnet back to its original position (or close).  Is this what you think was happening? 

If so, maybe combine a spring with the multi-axis hinge I showed above to have controlled motion, with a pull by the spring to bring the magnet back to its initial position. 

One thought, if this can indeed be reproduced, increased rotation speed will increase effects of centripetal acceleration and that force might overcome the magnetic and spring effects.  I would think if the thing accelerates too much this might be a problem and it might only run for a couple of minutes before centripetal becomes an issue. 

Now, an interesting thought:  this centripetal effect might actually cause some positive side effects as well.  It might serve as a self braking system, so the thing won't run away.  Also, the system might begin to self pulse -- speed up until centripetal force causes a slow down, then when the slow down allows magnet to go back to starting postion, it will speed up again.  Who knows, maybe there will be harmonic effects as well!   ;D

Anyway the key is to get this thing running again as in your initial model.  If we can get that far with a repeatable arrangement, I'm sure all the smart people here can figure out how to adjust it.

Regards,
jeffc



Yes your right. I'm focusing on getting the same effect  ... as for the centripetal acceleration (I don't know), i'm trying not to use my tape as it does not hold the magnet very long, a spring version will have to share the same physical dynamic properties of the tape I used. I will build both setup, one with a spring version and one with tape (same as initial one) to see if I can record on my cam the effect before it unglues again and compare them togheter.

Actually I find that a spring as the closest dynamics to the 3M tape , you can compress and move the magnet from different sides (so does the magnet on the 3M tape, it has a spongy foam feeling to it so you can actually press on it and it bounces back up .)


Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: jeffc on September 27, 2007, 01:42:06 AM
Hi, you could try and use 3M foam tape again, only this time, remove original adhesive with a solvent like alcohol or petrol and then use thin cyanoacralyte (crazy glue) on the flexible 3m tape substrate to prevent your problem of adhesive coming loose.

Another idea: If you want to seperate backward/forward rocking from side-to-side rocking then try and get hold of thin rubber tube and mount mags on that using cyano.

GOOD LUCK!

Interesting idea with the rubber.  I think the hard part with perfecting this configuration is that we need to provide the ability to adjust the magnet positioning, but still still have it sufficiently locked down so it only moves a little (how much?) during operation.  We may need to have the rubber layer fixed to the CD with a strong but moveable tension by weaker adhesive, then a layer above that in rubber which is solidly adhered to the magnet above using strong adhesive.  Thus allowing for adjustability by hand, but allowing movement against the rubber tension.

Regards,
jeffc
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: clearchrome on September 27, 2007, 01:47:09 AM
Hi.
I have nothing to solve your problems, but I want to say that I think that your observation is perhaps the solution for many others.
How often did we hear about device that woked as long as a stator was held by hand? All those devices failed as soon as the stator was mounted. But perhaps the stator should be flexibel mounted (like your Scotch tape)? Perhaps the Minato wheel works when the stator can move a bit back and forward?
Thanks you for sharing your observation.
Regards,
Eric Vogels.
Helding by hand will not provide a "linear" or perfect repititive action when it's interfered with mechanical or magnetic setups. A physically flexible hardware device, will however be able to "copy" all motions in it for each turn of a rotor. The forces acting on a flexible hardware will move the flexible harware accordingly to the force introduced. Helding by hand, this flexibility in the hand can be counterforced by partly, whithout knowing it, holding it back by your own force - preventing the movement in the flexible hand to move accordingly to the force acting on it. Therefor, by use of a flexible hardware, all forces and counter forces will be identical for every turn. The flexibility of a hand is not a motion that is the exact copy of the previous motion. Therefor a device might work for a while in one direction, and the opposite direction when holding it by hand. I think the solution might be something else. A fixed and flexible hardware I do not think is the solution to OU.

Maybe one should play with magnetic cancellation which prevents sticky points. Then using the repelling forces only to provide rotation. Just an idea I have been playing with for a while :)


Vidar

Actually it's not a helding by hand device. It is fixed and is repeatable but it allows the flexibility to adapt from several magnetic configuration.
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: clearchrome on September 27, 2007, 01:52:54 AM



@jeffc

Thanks!

Yes, I can use that to cover the X motion of the magnet.

As for the X-Y I was thinking of a spring mounted magnet, look at my picture. The spring diameter and height would have to be determined with experimentation.

For the rotation, I'm still thinking. (I keep thinking of those key wrench, but not very handy here)! Ha!


If multi-axis motion is really needed, take a look at this option.  Allows a range of motion but should be more limited/controlled than a spring.  Note you'd have to figure out how to make this work on a CD.  I think instead of a nail, you could just use an inverted flat head bolt and adjust a nut from the top to vary the amount of "play" the stiff L can make. 

Again, I'm not sure if you really need this much range of motion, because I can't visualize there being that much motion in your original model.  But if you do, this might provide the level of control and ability to vary the motion limits which could benefit the experiments.  I think it would be much harder to make spring variations (length, material, coil diameter, etc.) but with this arrangement you could more easily vary the height of the "nail" (or bolt/nut combo) and to position to vary the motion characteristics.

Regards,
jeffc

If I look at Vidar comment, he's right!  We need to keep the 3M tape effect in focus. Using the pinned "L" magnet attachement, were are going back to square 1, meaning the magnetic gate problem will probably show back (not sure but its need to be confirmed and tested)

And for the motion part, you are also right ... little movements is necessary, I made my mspaint pictures very big for understanding purposes, but these will have to be as small as the magnet cube themselfs.
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: jeffc on September 27, 2007, 01:55:15 AM

Yes your right. I'm focusing on getting the same effect  ... as for the centripetal acceleration (I don't know), i'm trying not to use my tape as it does not hold the magnet very long, a spring version will have to share the same physical dynamic properties of the tape I used. I will build both setup, one with a spring version and one with tape (same as initial one) to see if I can record on my cam the effect before it unglues again and compare them togheter.

Actually I find that a spring as the closest dynamics to the 3M tape , you can compress and move the magnet from different sides (so does the magnet on the 3M tape, it has a spongy foam feeling to it so you can actually press on it and it bounces back up .)

@clearchrome

I really hope you can get the tape version going once more so we can see the video. I think that will help everyone analyze the effect so we can better contribute ideas to making a permanent model. 

Best of luck!

Regards,
jeffc 
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: clearchrome on September 27, 2007, 02:02:37 AM
Hi, you could try and use 3M foam tape again, only this time, remove original adhesive with a solvent like alcohol or petrol and then use thin cyanoacralyte (crazy glue) on the flexible 3m tape substrate to prevent your problem of adhesive coming loose.

Another idea: If you want to seperate backward/forward rocking from side-to-side rocking then try and get hold of thin rubber tube and mount mags on that using cyano.

GOOD LUCK!


I used crazy glue on my 2nd test setup. It's a good idear, I just hope that the strong cracy glue will not melt the adhesive molecules and make it less stickier (will have to test this first). Let you know about that!

For the tube part , how do you see this working?
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: ledset on September 27, 2007, 02:15:36 AM
I was thinking that you could maybe carefully glue small hollow rubber tubes accross each magnet and then mount those onto the cd. The rubber tube would provide flexibility by deforming, but mainy in 1 axis only, so you would get a 1 degree of freedom flexi-mount.

For the tiny magnets you are using you could use fishing float rubbers available at any fishing tackle shop cut to the width of your neo cubes and then very carefully cyanoed to the cube.

No force:
[  ][  ][  ][  ]
 O O  O O

Repulsive force from left:
 [  ][  ][  ][  ]
 O O  O O

One idea to make the magnet arrays moveable on your CD would be to make modular arrays on small rectangles of thin plastic (maybe CD plastic?) and then you could use weaker adhesive to mount this modular array to your CD.

Using different tube orientations you could have arrays that rocked side to side or flexed forward/backward.

Having said all of this however, I would concentrate on getting your original config. workking again, setting it up exactly as you had it.

All the best.
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: jeffc on September 30, 2007, 09:27:01 AM
I was thinking that you could maybe carefully glue small hollow rubber tubes accross each magnet and then mount those onto the cd. The rubber tube would provide flexibility by deforming, but mainy in 1 axis only, so you would get a 1 degree of freedom flexi-mount.

For the tiny magnets you are using you could use fishing float rubbers available at any fishing tackle shop cut to the width of your neo cubes and then very carefully cyanoed to the cube.

No force:
[  ][  ][  ][  ]
 O O  O O

Repulsive force from left:
 [  ][  ][  ][  ]
 O O  O O

One idea to make the magnet arrays moveable on your CD would be to make modular arrays on small rectangles of thin plastic (maybe CD plastic?) and then you could use weaker adhesive to mount this modular array to your CD.

Using different tube orientations you could have arrays that rocked side to side or flexed forward/backward.

Having said all of this however, I would concentrate on getting your original config. workking again, setting it up exactly as you had it.

All the best.
I guess if you needed multi axis movement you could use little rubber balls of some sort.  Although, I don't know if you could find rubber balls small enough while being hollow.  If they are not hollow, the question is would it be to stiff to allow for enough range motion for the effect.  Maybe the glue setup you are working with will work and we won't have to worry.   ;D
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: q-continuum on April 09, 2015, 05:25:27 PM
I know this thread is 8 years old, but feel this is the correct spot to post...

Perhaps remove one to three of the Arc Magnets as well as move the visualization from 2D rotary into 3D toroidal spinning, since this is how nature likes to move.  See enclosed screenshot:

The RED arrows shown in the cuboctahedron may only show 1 of the 4 vector color directions in the Rhoden toroid (left), but note that there are 4 symmetrical planes of the cuboctahedron.  The black arrows may be dielectric, and the red arrows may be magnetic (unsure at this time).  Please comment.
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: mscoffman on April 10, 2015, 06:38:48 PM
There is the fallacy of the "hand magnet" in overunity devices, that is of thinking that there is no energy input when there is some

then claiming overunity energy where there is only normal human input energy. This shouldn't preclude something as is being

suggested, where input energy is parametrically applied, and seeing if the result might possibly be overunity.

In this case the fixed and variable characteristic of two sided mechanical tape, or the parametrically applied forces of servo motors

under computer control.


A similar concept seems to occur in the, Wang Shum Ho, pure magnetic motor Web Link..

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Wang_Shum_Ho_Generator


Here the rotor seems to have vibratory motion in the X,Y plane while damping fluid converts the X,Y motion perpendicularly

into the -> Z plane which allows rotor power rotation or damping.


I'd like to have the last laugh of converting the fake hand-magnet computer-fan into a computer servo actuated OU device.


..S..MarkSCoffman

Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: Low-Q on April 11, 2015, 12:26:39 PM
Replicating a device that doesn't work in the first place, will expectedly not work no matter how many times you replicate it.


Vidar
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: clearchrome on September 01, 2015, 08:45:06 PM
Replicating a device that doesn't work in the first place, will expectedly not work no matter how many times you replicate it.


Vidar


Well, if you use a good scientific approach, you always improve the replication toward your final objective from a partially working model.


You will never find a project working straight off the back in a tree with green money bills growing on it ;)


All theoredical concepts must be validated experiementally as we tend to simplify the complex nature we are in.
We don't always account for every nature's effects which would be too tedious to take into account without a super brain computer... and even here, im sure we still simplify stuff.


The concept here beeing the one from Johnson effect.



Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: Low-Q on September 02, 2015, 05:12:50 PM

Well, if you use a good scientific approach, you always improve the replication toward your final objective from a partially working model.


You will never find a project working straight off the back in a tree with green money bills growing on it ;)


All theoredical concepts must be validated experiementally as we tend to simplify the complex nature we are in.
We don't always account for every nature's effects which would be too tedious to take into account without a super brain computer... and even here, im sure we still simplify stuff.


The concept here beeing the one from Johnson effect.
A good scientific approach has never lead to over unity, because good science has proven beyond doubt that over unity does not exist.
It is OK to have theoretical concepts, but the theory can't have misleading flaws. Flaws has mislead countless (and each and everyone of them) hobbyists into great frustration every time their practical findings does not support their theory of over unity.

There is no theory in over unity that is supported by physics. So just give up, and find other ways to free energy that does not violate physics - it's plenty of it - so much that the humanity as a whole cannot tame it all, just charge you money for using it... Find your way around, and not tell the government what you power your house with ;-)

Vidar
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: SoManyWires on September 03, 2015, 07:09:41 AM
A good scientific approach has never lead to over unity, because good science has proven beyond doubt that over unity does not exist.
It is OK to have theoretical concepts, but the theory can't have misleading flaws. Flaws has mislead countless (and each and everyone of them) hobbyists into great frustration every time their practical findings does not support their theory of over unity.

There is no theory in over unity that is supported by physics. So just give up, and find other ways to free energy that does not violate physics - it's plenty of it - so much that the humanity as a whole cannot tame it all, just charge you money for using it... Find your way around, and not tell the government what you power your house with ;-)

Vidar

there is truth written in what you just wrote.

as luck would have it, or by not trying to be lucky about it, thoughout history is that science is able to accept when it is sometimes wrong,
in order to correct itself accordingly.

so if anyone gets the notion to attempt to redefine a theory and possibly becomes correct , they surely wont be burned at the stake by any emotionally stable scientists.

careful constructive criticism is like food for the brave well meaning experimenter, even though everyone sometimes offers negative charged critical insight, the critics too feel they themselves are correct, and in most cases they are.

should you give up? not unless you want to. you could say: at least i tried,  the critics were right to begin with.
have you've exhausted all considerable options, will another untried option one day just appear during random thought? with any luck, yes.
if you don't get it right the 1st time, there are still 1000's if not more increasingly educated attempts that could produce better results.

we really do only use a small percentage of our cap'ability'.


Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: Low-Q on September 04, 2015, 06:39:43 AM
there is truth written in what you just wrote.

as luck would have it, or by not trying to be lucky about it, thoughout history is that science is able to accept when it is sometimes wrong,
in order to correct itself accordingly.

so if anyone gets the notion to attempt to redefine a theory and possibly becomes correct , they surely wont be burned at the stake by any emotionally stable scientists.

careful constructive criticism is like food for the brave well meaning experimenter, even though everyone sometimes offers negative charged critical insight, the critics too feel they themselves are correct, and in most cases they are.

should you give up? not unless you want to. you could say: at least i tried,  the critics were right to begin with.
have you've exhausted all considerable options, will another untried option one day just appear during random thought? with any luck, yes.
if you don't get it right the 1st time, there are still 1000's if not more increasingly educated attempts that could produce better results.

we really do only use a small percentage of our cap'ability'.
I can't agree more. Well written! Never stop asking and trying. However, I have a feeling that if the physics as we know it was not true, and over unity was possible, so would the physical laws been so different that we could never predict the trajectory of a rocket or a probe sent into space, and make it land within a precision of a few hundred meters on Mars. It would never been possible to predict the performance of a car engine at the lab, it would not be possible to find unknown places with GPS. Because if over unity existed there would not longer be a relation between time, energy, mass, and gravity.

Vidar
Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 24, 2015, 08:47:38 AM
... I have a feeling that if the physics as we know it was not true, and over unity was possible, so would the physical laws been so different that we could never predict the trajectory of a rocket or a probe sent into space, and make it land within a precision of a few hundred meters on Mars. It would never been possible to predict the performance of a car engine at the lab, it would not be possible to find unknown places with GPS. Because if over unity existed there would not longer be a relation between time, energy, mass, and gravity.

Vidar

these assumptions you make here seem ridiculous. Simply because we do not fully understand every physical phenomena, or that our theories need to be adjusted, does not mean we have to throw away all the progress we have made towards what we think we know.

Our current model of physics relates equalities in the experiments we observe. Overunity, by definition, is an inequality. Therefore, it cannot be defined by any known equation.

Many people confuse what thermodynamic theory actually states, and what types of system analysis it actually Applies to.
We can't even close off a system, much less pretend that every conceivable system can be closed off from all outside energy transfer from
the surrounding environment, space or beyond.

That being said, there are systems that cannot even be defined by thermodynamic analysis. Gravity and magnetism being among the list.
What sayeth the laws of Thermodynamics about Boyle's Flask? Or a vintage 80's Coleman Cooler w/ a jet nozzle made to refill itself?

Take a nuclear reactor for instance, is the available energy simply a matter of E = mc^2?
We take exponentially more energy out of this reaction in the form of heat than can be accounted for by a loss in mass. The waste from the reactor is nearly the same mass as the fuel that was inserted into it. The reaction is defined clearly by elementary physics, however this system cannot be described by thermodynamic analysis. It is not an equality.
Much like Overunity, the mathematics of the chain-reaction of atomic radiation, as a function of radius, is an inequality.
like constructive interference in signal processing, coherent radiant convection with heat, simultaneously firing two coherent-phase lasers,
Tesla's Oscillators, or humming into a tin can tied to a string.....

There are electromagnetic inequalities defined by Maxwell, however we tend to ignore these things, because they do not fit into our currently accepted model.

The existence or possibility of a system you would call "overunity", or one in which the energies are not fully defined,
poses no threat to our current realm of knowledge.
All of our completely defined systems will not fail to operate, if we find a system that does not behave as expected.
That is just silly....

Our current model does a good job at defining systems we currently know and use.
We shouldn't expect airplanes to fall out of the sky, the moment Jimmy the inventor makes a wheel seem to turn itself.

however, we must also not forget a short time ago before the invention of aerodynamics.




There is still one major problem we have when it comes to magnetism.
There is a scale of events that occur in or around a magnetic field that are completely irrespective of TIME.
What exactly does that do to your "equations"?
oh,... we can ignore that right? because if we are observing it, it becomes relativistic.....
but what about from other perspectives? non-relativistic ones..... Where did the "T" go?
 acceleration is a factor of distance,.. if the distance is at an arc, What is the velocity? hmm...
doesn't this look a lot like a gravitational slingshot? what is the energy involved in that maneuver? from a "thermodynamic" perspective?
Now, take the "T" away......
There's nothing in magnetic theory that prevents us from creating an OU device.
 It's simply a matter of us creating the right kind of magnetic arrangement.
Which ordinary magnets, simply do not do in most configurations.
But we have the math for situations that WOULD, if we have specifically designed magnets.

H.J. attempted to teach us his methods, very few fully understand what he was truly talking about.
he was able to create one of these "OU" magnetic situations artificially, by forcing various magnets and their fields
to do things they did not like to do.
meaning, taping or gluing them with like poles facing to compress the field to its maximum.
then an approaching magnet will exceed this max and cause the pole to temporarily flip.
This can be observed using magnetic instruments to have flux intensities thousands of times greater than the
strength of any of the magnets involved. and HJ has pages and pages of documentation that are now becoming part of the public record.

This is a real situation that cannot be described by thermodynamics. We simply do not know the system parameters, the energy state of all the atoms in the magnetic material and their particular alignment, and how that radiation stacks up during the magnetic moment when the poles flip.
We can describe it, with relatively close accuracy, but it is an inequality.

Another inequality is the wick effect. We can describe the behavior, and state the cause to be the gravitational gradient and atmospheric pressure.
But, at the end of the day, we have an OU situation that cannot be defined by thermodynamics.
Whether it be water rising 3mm in a coffee straw, or a redwood tree lifting 10,000 Gallons 1,000 ft into the air in a single day.

What is declared "impossible" by physics, has historically been disproven.
We even have a QM number that defines the % of possibility of everything that is not possible.
It is good to place faith in the past 200 years of physics, but who are any of us to think we know everything there Is to know?

I for one, have seen enough to know that either we DON'T know,.. or they don't WANT us to.....
and from my experiences with the national accredidation system, I would lean towards the second one.




Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: sm0ky2 on December 24, 2015, 09:14:13 AM
When you force the magnetic poles to approach each other, it creates an asymmetry in the field.
you can see this using a magnetic viewing film
the flux density at the approaching poles increases and the field becomes physically distorted.
you can use this tool and other magnetic sensory equipment to shape the field the way you want it to be.
this is magnetic field compression.
When you take the magnets away from each other, the fields will return to their normal shape and an evenly dispersed flux density.
it is important to note the effects at the opposite poles while compressing the field.

this is the first thing to learn, before you get into any "pole flipping" or any other high-level H.J. tech
observe the field, see/feel its shape and strength as you sculpt it to be the way you desire.

Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: ramset on December 24, 2015, 12:38:26 PM
Now Those are some beautiful posts ,You reminded me of a task I meant to do a few weeks ago regarding the videos from Howards home .


I also love the redwood example and have pondered this "wick" many times,

have a good holiday, may your carbon foot print be greatly diminished in the coming days and be replaced with much more "planet friendly" technologies .

respectfully

Chet






Title: Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
Post by: TinselKoala on December 24, 2015, 09:01:49 PM
Er.......