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Author Topic: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(  (Read 21910 times)

Offline clearchrome

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Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
« Reply #15 on: September 26, 2007, 09:45:34 PM »
Hi.
I have nothing to solve your problems, but I want to say that I think that your observation is perhaps the solution for many others.
How often did we hear about device that woked as long as a stator was held by hand? All those devices failed as soon as the stator was mounted. But perhaps the stator should be flexibel mounted (like your Scotch tape)? Perhaps the Minato wheel works when the stator can move a bit back and forward?
Thanks you for sharing your observation.
Regards,
Eric Vogels.

Youre absolutly right!
   If you look also at the Torbay motor from Argentine, well guess what! You actually see moving parts as the field configuration is constantly changing ...this concept is starting to be a valid start.



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline clearchrome

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Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
« Reply #16 on: September 26, 2007, 10:10:46 PM »



@jeffc

Thanks!

Yes, I can use that to cover the X motion of the magnet.

As for the X-Y I was thinking of a spring mounted magnet, look at my picture. The spring diameter and height would have to be determined with experimentation.

For the rotation, I'm still thinking. (I keep thinking of those key wrench, but not very handy here)! Ha!

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2007, 10:50:20 PM »
Hi.
I have nothing to solve your problems, but I want to say that I think that your observation is perhaps the solution for many others.
How often did we hear about device that woked as long as a stator was held by hand? All those devices failed as soon as the stator was mounted. But perhaps the stator should be flexibel mounted (like your Scotch tape)? Perhaps the Minato wheel works when the stator can move a bit back and forward?
Thanks you for sharing your observation.
Regards,
Eric Vogels.
Helding by hand will not provide a "linear" or perfect repititive action when it's interfered with mechanical or magnetic setups. A physically flexible hardware device, will however be able to "copy" all motions in it for each turn of a rotor. The forces acting on a flexible hardware will move the flexible harware accordingly to the force introduced. Helding by hand, this flexibility in the hand can be counterforced by partly, whithout knowing it, holding it back by your own force - preventing the movement in the flexible hand to move accordingly to the force acting on it. Therefor, by use of a flexible hardware, all forces and counter forces will be identical for every turn. The flexibility of a hand is not a motion that is the exact copy of the previous motion. Therefor a device might work for a while in one direction, and the opposite direction when holding it by hand. I think the solution might be something else. A fixed and flexible hardware I do not think is the solution to OU.

Maybe one should play with magnetic cancellation which prevents sticky points. Then using the repelling forces only to provide rotation. Just an idea I have been playing with for a while :)


Vidar

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
« Reply #17 on: September 26, 2007, 10:50:20 PM »
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Offline jeffc

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Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
« Reply #18 on: September 26, 2007, 11:26:12 PM »



@jeffc

Thanks!

Yes, I can use that to cover the X motion of the magnet.

As for the X-Y I was thinking of a spring mounted magnet, look at my picture. The spring diameter and height would have to be determined with experimentation.

For the rotation, I'm still thinking. (I keep thinking of those key wrench, but not very handy here)! Ha!

@clearchrome

Do you think that the original working version you made created enough motion to demand using a spring?  Having not witnessed it, I'm only trying to visualize.  I guess the 3M tape would have allowed motion in multiple directions, but I would also guess that the primary movement of the magnets would be away from the force applied.  Thats what made me think of a hinge type arrangement, because I can imagine a force causing a tilt, but if the force was strong enough to make the magnet move verticle in any significant way, I can't see how it would self run for about a minute, as I would think the magnet would come loose almost instantly. 

I'm concerned that with a spring approach, the magnet can move around in unproductive directions.  While I know we are looking for an unbalanced arrangement to create continuous motion, I think that magnets given too much freedom of motion will find their natural equalibrium (no motion).  So I think the trick is to give just a little freedom of motion, just enough to vary the flux in a way that prevents lockup. 

These are just thoughts, as I am no magnetic expert!  I'm just trying to envision your first version as it worked, and I think the motion of magnets was probably very small and limited primarilly to how the force could interact with the tension of the tape.

Regards,
jeffc

Offline jeffc

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Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2007, 12:04:17 AM »



@jeffc

Thanks!

Yes, I can use that to cover the X motion of the magnet.

As for the X-Y I was thinking of a spring mounted magnet, look at my picture. The spring diameter and height would have to be determined with experimentation.

For the rotation, I'm still thinking. (I keep thinking of those key wrench, but not very handy here)! Ha!


If multi-axis motion is really needed, take a look at this option.  Allows a range of motion but should be more limited/controlled than a spring.  Note you'd have to figure out how to make this work on a CD.  I think instead of a nail, you could just use an inverted flat head bolt and adjust a nut from the top to vary the amount of "play" the stiff L can make. 

Again, I'm not sure if you really need this much range of motion, because I can't visualize there being that much motion in your original model.  But if you do, this might provide the level of control and ability to vary the motion limits which could benefit the experiments.  I think it would be much harder to make spring variations (length, material, coil diameter, etc.) but with this arrangement you could more easily vary the height of the "nail" (or bolt/nut combo) and to position to vary the motion characteristics.

Regards,
jeffc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
« Reply #19 on: September 27, 2007, 12:04:17 AM »
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Offline jeffc

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Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
« Reply #20 on: September 27, 2007, 12:27:23 AM »



@jeffc

Thanks!

Yes, I can use that to cover the X motion of the magnet.

As for the X-Y I was thinking of a spring mounted magnet, look at my picture. The spring diameter and height would have to be determined with experimentation.

For the rotation, I'm still thinking. (I keep thinking of those key wrench, but not very handy here)! Ha!


If multi-axis motion is really needed, take a look at this option.  Allows a range of motion but should be more limited/controlled than a spring.  Note you'd have to figure out how to make this work on a CD.  I think instead of a nail, you could just use an inverted flat head bolt and adjust a nut from the top to vary the amount of "play" the stiff L can make. 

Again, I'm not sure if you really need this much range of motion, because I can't visualize there being that much motion in your original model.  But if you do, this might provide the level of control and ability to vary the motion limits which could benefit the experiments.  I think it would be much harder to make spring variations (length, material, coil diameter, etc.) but with this arrangement you could more easily vary the height of the "nail" (or bolt/nut combo) and to position to vary the motion characteristics.

Regards,
jeffc
Thinking about your spring concept again.  I may have misunderstood that the reason you are thinking of a spring is so that you have something to pull the magnet back down to its original position.  I guess this is what the 3M tape may have done, allowed some motion but then was able to pull the magnet back to its original position (or close).  Is this what you think was happening? 

If so, maybe combine a spring with the multi-axis hinge I showed above to have controlled motion, with a pull by the spring to bring the magnet back to its initial position. 

One thought, if this can indeed be reproduced, increased rotation speed will increase effects of centripetal acceleration and that force might overcome the magnetic and spring effects.  I would think if the thing accelerates too much this might be a problem and it might only run for a couple of minutes before centripetal becomes an issue. 

Now, an interesting thought:  this centripetal effect might actually cause some positive side effects as well.  It might serve as a self braking system, so the thing won't run away.  Also, the system might begin to self pulse -- speed up until centripetal force causes a slow down, then when the slow down allows magnet to go back to starting postion, it will speed up again.  Who knows, maybe there will be harmonic effects as well!   ;D

Anyway the key is to get this thing running again as in your initial model.  If we can get that far with a repeatable arrangement, I'm sure all the smart people here can figure out how to adjust it.

Regards,
jeffc


Offline ledset

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Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2007, 01:21:35 AM »
Hi, you could try and use 3M foam tape again, only this time, remove original adhesive with a solvent like alcohol or petrol and then use thin cyanoacralyte (crazy glue) on the flexible 3m tape substrate to prevent your problem of adhesive coming loose.

Another idea: If you want to seperate backward/forward rocking from side-to-side rocking then try and get hold of thin rubber tube and mount mags on that using cyano.

GOOD LUCK!

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
« Reply #21 on: September 27, 2007, 01:21:35 AM »
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Offline clearchrome

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Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
« Reply #22 on: September 27, 2007, 01:41:47 AM »



@jeffc

Thanks!

Yes, I can use that to cover the X motion of the magnet.

As for the X-Y I was thinking of a spring mounted magnet, look at my picture. The spring diameter and height would have to be determined with experimentation.

For the rotation, I'm still thinking. (I keep thinking of those key wrench, but not very handy here)! Ha!


If multi-axis motion is really needed, take a look at this option.  Allows a range of motion but should be more limited/controlled than a spring.  Note you'd have to figure out how to make this work on a CD.  I think instead of a nail, you could just use an inverted flat head bolt and adjust a nut from the top to vary the amount of "play" the stiff L can make. 

Again, I'm not sure if you really need this much range of motion, because I can't visualize there being that much motion in your original model.  But if you do, this might provide the level of control and ability to vary the motion limits which could benefit the experiments.  I think it would be much harder to make spring variations (length, material, coil diameter, etc.) but with this arrangement you could more easily vary the height of the "nail" (or bolt/nut combo) and to position to vary the motion characteristics.

Regards,
jeffc
Thinking about your spring concept again.  I may have misunderstood that the reason you are thinking of a spring is so that you have something to pull the magnet back down to its original position.  I guess this is what the 3M tape may have done, allowed some motion but then was able to pull the magnet back to its original position (or close).  Is this what you think was happening? 

If so, maybe combine a spring with the multi-axis hinge I showed above to have controlled motion, with a pull by the spring to bring the magnet back to its initial position. 

One thought, if this can indeed be reproduced, increased rotation speed will increase effects of centripetal acceleration and that force might overcome the magnetic and spring effects.  I would think if the thing accelerates too much this might be a problem and it might only run for a couple of minutes before centripetal becomes an issue. 

Now, an interesting thought:  this centripetal effect might actually cause some positive side effects as well.  It might serve as a self braking system, so the thing won't run away.  Also, the system might begin to self pulse -- speed up until centripetal force causes a slow down, then when the slow down allows magnet to go back to starting postion, it will speed up again.  Who knows, maybe there will be harmonic effects as well!   ;D

Anyway the key is to get this thing running again as in your initial model.  If we can get that far with a repeatable arrangement, I'm sure all the smart people here can figure out how to adjust it.

Regards,
jeffc



Yes your right. I'm focusing on getting the same effect  ... as for the centripetal acceleration (I don't know), i'm trying not to use my tape as it does not hold the magnet very long, a spring version will have to share the same physical dynamic properties of the tape I used. I will build both setup, one with a spring version and one with tape (same as initial one) to see if I can record on my cam the effect before it unglues again and compare them togheter.

Actually I find that a spring as the closest dynamics to the 3M tape , you can compress and move the magnet from different sides (so does the magnet on the 3M tape, it has a spongy foam feeling to it so you can actually press on it and it bounces back up .)



Offline jeffc

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Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2007, 01:42:06 AM »
Hi, you could try and use 3M foam tape again, only this time, remove original adhesive with a solvent like alcohol or petrol and then use thin cyanoacralyte (crazy glue) on the flexible 3m tape substrate to prevent your problem of adhesive coming loose.

Another idea: If you want to seperate backward/forward rocking from side-to-side rocking then try and get hold of thin rubber tube and mount mags on that using cyano.

GOOD LUCK!

Interesting idea with the rubber.  I think the hard part with perfecting this configuration is that we need to provide the ability to adjust the magnet positioning, but still still have it sufficiently locked down so it only moves a little (how much?) during operation.  We may need to have the rubber layer fixed to the CD with a strong but moveable tension by weaker adhesive, then a layer above that in rubber which is solidly adhered to the magnet above using strong adhesive.  Thus allowing for adjustability by hand, but allowing movement against the rubber tension.

Regards,
jeffc

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
« Reply #23 on: September 27, 2007, 01:42:06 AM »
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Offline clearchrome

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Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
« Reply #24 on: September 27, 2007, 01:47:09 AM »
Hi.
I have nothing to solve your problems, but I want to say that I think that your observation is perhaps the solution for many others.
How often did we hear about device that woked as long as a stator was held by hand? All those devices failed as soon as the stator was mounted. But perhaps the stator should be flexibel mounted (like your Scotch tape)? Perhaps the Minato wheel works when the stator can move a bit back and forward?
Thanks you for sharing your observation.
Regards,
Eric Vogels.
Helding by hand will not provide a "linear" or perfect repititive action when it's interfered with mechanical or magnetic setups. A physically flexible hardware device, will however be able to "copy" all motions in it for each turn of a rotor. The forces acting on a flexible hardware will move the flexible harware accordingly to the force introduced. Helding by hand, this flexibility in the hand can be counterforced by partly, whithout knowing it, holding it back by your own force - preventing the movement in the flexible hand to move accordingly to the force acting on it. Therefor, by use of a flexible hardware, all forces and counter forces will be identical for every turn. The flexibility of a hand is not a motion that is the exact copy of the previous motion. Therefor a device might work for a while in one direction, and the opposite direction when holding it by hand. I think the solution might be something else. A fixed and flexible hardware I do not think is the solution to OU.

Maybe one should play with magnetic cancellation which prevents sticky points. Then using the repelling forces only to provide rotation. Just an idea I have been playing with for a while :)


Vidar

Actually it's not a helding by hand device. It is fixed and is repeatable but it allows the flexibility to adapt from several magnetic configuration.

Offline clearchrome

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Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2007, 01:52:54 AM »



@jeffc

Thanks!

Yes, I can use that to cover the X motion of the magnet.

As for the X-Y I was thinking of a spring mounted magnet, look at my picture. The spring diameter and height would have to be determined with experimentation.

For the rotation, I'm still thinking. (I keep thinking of those key wrench, but not very handy here)! Ha!


If multi-axis motion is really needed, take a look at this option.  Allows a range of motion but should be more limited/controlled than a spring.  Note you'd have to figure out how to make this work on a CD.  I think instead of a nail, you could just use an inverted flat head bolt and adjust a nut from the top to vary the amount of "play" the stiff L can make. 

Again, I'm not sure if you really need this much range of motion, because I can't visualize there being that much motion in your original model.  But if you do, this might provide the level of control and ability to vary the motion limits which could benefit the experiments.  I think it would be much harder to make spring variations (length, material, coil diameter, etc.) but with this arrangement you could more easily vary the height of the "nail" (or bolt/nut combo) and to position to vary the motion characteristics.

Regards,
jeffc

If I look at Vidar comment, he's right!  We need to keep the 3M tape effect in focus. Using the pinned "L" magnet attachement, were are going back to square 1, meaning the magnetic gate problem will probably show back (not sure but its need to be confirmed and tested)

And for the motion part, you are also right ... little movements is necessary, I made my mspaint pictures very big for understanding purposes, but these will have to be as small as the magnet cube themselfs.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
« Reply #25 on: September 27, 2007, 01:52:54 AM »
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Offline jeffc

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Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
« Reply #26 on: September 27, 2007, 01:55:15 AM »

Yes your right. I'm focusing on getting the same effect  ... as for the centripetal acceleration (I don't know), i'm trying not to use my tape as it does not hold the magnet very long, a spring version will have to share the same physical dynamic properties of the tape I used. I will build both setup, one with a spring version and one with tape (same as initial one) to see if I can record on my cam the effect before it unglues again and compare them togheter.

Actually I find that a spring as the closest dynamics to the 3M tape , you can compress and move the magnet from different sides (so does the magnet on the 3M tape, it has a spongy foam feeling to it so you can actually press on it and it bounces back up .)

@clearchrome

I really hope you can get the tape version going once more so we can see the video. I think that will help everyone analyze the effect so we can better contribute ideas to making a permanent model. 

Best of luck!

Regards,
jeffc 

Offline clearchrome

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  • Posts: 63
Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
« Reply #27 on: September 27, 2007, 02:02:37 AM »
Hi, you could try and use 3M foam tape again, only this time, remove original adhesive with a solvent like alcohol or petrol and then use thin cyanoacralyte (crazy glue) on the flexible 3m tape substrate to prevent your problem of adhesive coming loose.

Another idea: If you want to seperate backward/forward rocking from side-to-side rocking then try and get hold of thin rubber tube and mount mags on that using cyano.

GOOD LUCK!


I used crazy glue on my 2nd test setup. It's a good idear, I just hope that the strong cracy glue will not melt the adhesive molecules and make it less stickier (will have to test this first). Let you know about that!

For the tube part , how do you see this working?

Offline ledset

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Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
« Reply #28 on: September 27, 2007, 02:15:36 AM »
I was thinking that you could maybe carefully glue small hollow rubber tubes accross each magnet and then mount those onto the cd. The rubber tube would provide flexibility by deforming, but mainy in 1 axis only, so you would get a 1 degree of freedom flexi-mount.

For the tiny magnets you are using you could use fishing float rubbers available at any fishing tackle shop cut to the width of your neo cubes and then very carefully cyanoed to the cube.

No force:
[  ][  ][  ][  ]
 O O  O O

Repulsive force from left:
 [  ][  ][  ][  ]
 O O  O O

One idea to make the magnet arrays moveable on your CD would be to make modular arrays on small rectangles of thin plastic (maybe CD plastic?) and then you could use weaker adhesive to mount this modular array to your CD.

Using different tube orientations you could have arrays that rocked side to side or flexed forward/backward.

Having said all of this however, I would concentrate on getting your original config. workking again, setting it up exactly as you had it.

All the best.

Offline jeffc

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Re: Magnet motor , tried to replicate a 2nd working proto. Unsuccessful so far :(
« Reply #29 on: September 30, 2007, 09:27:01 AM »
I was thinking that you could maybe carefully glue small hollow rubber tubes accross each magnet and then mount those onto the cd. The rubber tube would provide flexibility by deforming, but mainy in 1 axis only, so you would get a 1 degree of freedom flexi-mount.

For the tiny magnets you are using you could use fishing float rubbers available at any fishing tackle shop cut to the width of your neo cubes and then very carefully cyanoed to the cube.

No force:
[  ][  ][  ][  ]
 O O  O O

Repulsive force from left:
 [  ][  ][  ][  ]
 O O  O O

One idea to make the magnet arrays moveable on your CD would be to make modular arrays on small rectangles of thin plastic (maybe CD plastic?) and then you could use weaker adhesive to mount this modular array to your CD.

Using different tube orientations you could have arrays that rocked side to side or flexed forward/backward.

Having said all of this however, I would concentrate on getting your original config. workking again, setting it up exactly as you had it.

All the best.
I guess if you needed multi axis movement you could use little rubber balls of some sort.  Although, I don't know if you could find rubber balls small enough while being hollow.  If they are not hollow, the question is would it be to stiff to allow for enough range motion for the effect.  Maybe the glue setup you are working with will work and we won't have to worry.   ;D

 

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