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Author Topic: Circuit setups for pulse motors  (Read 268101 times)

Nastrand2000

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Re: Circuit setups for pulse motors
« Reply #60 on: September 23, 2007, 03:32:46 PM »
Ren,
Thank you for the link to the video converter, it works great. Got the 200+ meg video down to 21 megs with very little loss in video quality.
Jason

tropes

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Re: Circuit setups for pulse motors
« Reply #61 on: September 23, 2007, 03:58:48 PM »
Thank you Ren and Jason for your personal messages. The surgery went well and I am now hopefully cancer free.
It is great to see others like "hoptoad" taking an interest in the thread. Unless there are unselfish contributors this will not survive.  This should not be a place to show off but as Jason pointed out at the beginning, those who want to share and learn should feel welcome.
I hope to soon resume my work on the multi-piston Sotropa Motor and become a contributor. My main interest is still the use of the attraction  phase and the similarities to the Adams Motor.
My last post questioned the use of the term "back emf". Is there any discussion there?
Tropes

hoptoad

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Re: Circuit setups for pulse motors
« Reply #62 on: September 23, 2007, 04:32:32 PM »
Hi one and all, as I previously mentioned :

"I have during that time analysed one Adams motor which was showing a small degree of genuine overunity,(built by a friend of mine, and utilising mechanical switching), but an in depth investigation into it revealed that it was a potential environmental threat. When I get the time I shall explain further."

Now to explain: In 1999 I was phoned by Martin, a good friend of mine in Adelaide, who excitedely reported that he believed he had achieved OU with a high impedence Adams motor, consisting of 4 neo magnets embedded in an acrylic rotor approximately 4 inches in diameter and having two solid soft iron core stators wound with fine wire of approximately 1000 turns each and with a DC resistance of 32 ohms each. The coils were connected in series giving a DC resistance of 64 ohms total. Although he said the OU effect was feeble, he was certain after repeating his experiment many times over, that he had indeed succeeded.

He asked me to travel to Adelaide at the earliest possible convenience to help him confirm his success. I promptly agreed to his request and met him a few days later to go over his experiments and data. This took all week-end due the method of testing and the nature of lead acid batteries.

All testing was carried out in a temperature controlled room set at a comfortable 22 deg C to ensure that the battery readings did not vary due to ambient temperature differences throughout the testing period.

First he discharged his 12.6V 1.2 Ah supply battery down to to an even 12V through a resistive load, to rid it of surface charge. Then the battery was allowed to recover its charge for two hours before connection to the motor. At the begining of the experiment/s, the battery reading was 12.46 Volts. The switching used was a mechanical replication of Adams "star switch" comprising of a sterling silver commutator and relay spring levers with gold plated contact points. The duty cycle was set to approximately 20 per cent.

Upon connection, the motor immediately ran, drawing approximately 80ma, and as it picked up speed and settled into its running RPM the current reduced to around 5ma (an average measure using a sensitive analogue current meter.) The voltage was likewise measured by a high quality analogue voltmeter.(He didn't have access to an oscilliscope). The battery initially dropped to around 12.3V on connection but quickly rose to around 12.38 as the motor settled in. Then slowly but surely over a period of 4 hours the battery voltage rose above 12.46 volts to 12.62 volts.

After 4 hours the motor was stopped, the battery discharged to 12v again, and the process repeated throughout the whole weekend. Each time the battery rose back up to 12.62 volts until the last run when we allowed it run for 5 hours and it reached 12.68 Volts. All final voltages were confirmed by a digital voltmeter when the motor had finished its runtime. During runtime, digital volt meters are useless because the sparking across the points cause RF interference.

During this time, I took a lot of notice of the spark on the contacts. It was a bright dark blue, with emerald green and bright yellow tinges on the outer perimeters of the spark. I also noticed a slight smell of ozone and a kind of metallic taste in my mouth when I leaned in closely to observe. I mentioned this to Martin, so we decided to take some high resolution movie footage of the sparks at close range with his commercial quality film recorder.

At the end of the testing we were both convinced that indeed the battery had increased in voltage and the phenomenon was genuine. But I had a really nagging feeling that something was not right. We discussed at great length the apparent success of the experiment, but agreed that it would be great to get another mutual chemistry friend of ours to witness the experiment first hand on the following week-end if he was available.

In the meantime, he would get the roll of film of the sparking contents processed. Our mutual friend Adrian agreed to meet with us two weekends later, and we repeated the experiment again in his presence. I explained to Adrian that I had a gut feeling about the sparking and its relevance to the apparant OU effects. Upon seeing the motor running, he agreed that my concerns and assumptions may be correct. After completing another week-ends worth of experiments with the same results, Adrian agreed to take both the processed film and the working machine to his company's lab, where he could use their equipment to run a spectral analysis on both the processed film images and the machine itself.

We again all met at Martin's place 3 weeks later, and Adrian confirmed my fears about the sparking. It appeared that the high impedance coils were producing a collapsing emf in the order of thousands of volts, and the high intensity, high temperature spark produced was literaly burning the air. More importantly, and detrimentally, it was causing complex reactions by the ignition of Nitrogen, Water vapour, oxygen, silver and carbon dioxide, resulting in the production of a gaseous soup consisting of various percentages of Nitric acid, Nitrous Oxide, Ozone, Silver Nitrate, liberated Hydrogen and Carbon Monoxide. All of which have a negative environmental impact in one way or another in an open atmospheric environment.

Also apparent was the slow but sure degradation of the silver commutator, with a well worn track caused by the sparking, though the gold plated relay contact appeared relatively unaffected except for a slight coating of carbon calx.

As for the OU results, it appeared that the classic point/plane electrical contact of the commutator and relay lever points was also causing ionization and a separation of electrons from some of the atoms of liberated Hydrogen created by the intense spark. A combination of the moving magnetic field from the strong neo magnets and the collapsing magnetic field of the coils appears to be responsible for shunting these free electrons back into the supply circuit.

As you can imagine, Martin and I felt the elation at his success transform to feelings of consternation and concern. If one were to scale up the motor to a size and power rating for practical usage, the negative impacts of the sparking would also be scaled up.

As a comparative experiment, we inserted a .01uf cap and a diode in reverse bias across the contacts and ran the motor again. This time the spark was considerably less apparent and volatile, but all OU effects flew out the window.

So in conclusion, bear this in mind when using mechanical switching in conjunction with highly inductive reactance circuits. You may just be substituting one environmental dilemna with another.

Cheers to all. When I get the chance, I will post some positive information to ponder re Adams style motors using semiconductor switching.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2007, 04:55:06 PM by hoptoad »

Nastrand2000

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Re: Circuit setups for pulse motors
« Reply #63 on: September 23, 2007, 04:56:19 PM »
Mechanical switching has shown overunity in the past. This may be due to the molecular change that happens during the switching process. While the degradation of the metal occurs, there are liberated electrons that help to charge the battery. I personally would not be worried about the small amounts of noxious gases given off, a simple catalytic process can trap them if a larger machine was developed.

tropes

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Re: Circuit setups for pulse motors
« Reply #64 on: September 23, 2007, 04:57:44 PM »
Now that's one fuck of a good story!!!  I just knew this Hoptoad was going to be a great contributor.
Tropes

Nastrand2000

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Re: Circuit setups for pulse motors
« Reply #65 on: September 23, 2007, 05:02:04 PM »
Peter,
There has not been any discussion of bemf vs. flyback. Just to get it out there, BEMF happens while the driving coil is active. What I'm capturing happens after the coil fires, and then the field collapses. If I understand flyback voltage (which I don't), it is the same thing I'm capturing. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm always happy to learn. God knows I need alot of teaching.  ;D
Jason

tropes

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Re: Circuit setups for pulse motors
« Reply #66 on: September 23, 2007, 05:14:43 PM »
Peter,
There has not been any discussion of bemf vs. flyback. Just to get it out there, BEMF happens while the driving coil is active. What I'm capturing happens after the coil fires, and then the field collapses. If I understand flyback voltage (which I don't), it is the same thing I'm capturing. Please correct me if I'm wrong, I'm always happy to learn. God knows I need alot of teaching.  ;D
Jason
I think in this forum BEMF has come to mean any voltage captured after the coil has pulsed or voltage induced by a magnet passing a coil. However, I believe you are correct in that BEMF occurs as a result of Lenz's Law while the driving coil is active. The electromagnetic force that I would like to use is the voltage created when a magnet is attracted to the coil or pulled towards a coil.
Perhaps we are both full of shit and still don't have it right.
Tropes

Nastrand2000

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Re: Circuit setups for pulse motors
« Reply #67 on: September 23, 2007, 05:31:10 PM »
Peter,
You are correct (that we are full of shit  :P). But the voltage you are looking at is BEMF, lenz law. However if you try to remove this voltage there will be BEMF to that voltage and so on. The only way to get rid of it, is to get rid of resistance. So you would need a superconducting coil. I believe that you could capture the first pulse of BEMF and help your motor continue its direction but you have to consider the resonance effects within the coil itself. And resonance calculation is beyond me.
Jason

Nastrand2000

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Re: Circuit setups for pulse motors
« Reply #68 on: September 23, 2007, 05:43:33 PM »
Peter,
I also believe that the only way to capture this BEMF would be a bifilar wound coil with the capturing coil being much smaller in gauge. Say a 20 gauge wrapped with 28 or 30 gauge just to start the testing.
Jason

tropes

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Re: Circuit setups for pulse motors
« Reply #69 on: September 23, 2007, 05:50:08 PM »
Peter,
I also believe that the only way to capture this BEMF would be a bifilar wound coil with the capturing coil being much smaller in gauge. Say a 20 gauge wrapped with 28 or 30 gauge just to start the testing.
Jason
Okay, so would you wrap the two wires the same direction or would one be going the opposite way?
Peter

Nastrand2000

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Re: Circuit setups for pulse motors
« Reply #70 on: September 23, 2007, 06:02:17 PM »
You can wrap them the same way for ease, then try connecting one way then the other. You will get the result of forward and backwards this way.
Jason

Nastrand2000

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Re: Circuit setups for pulse motors
« Reply #71 on: September 23, 2007, 06:10:41 PM »
Interesting, one thing I just tried was taking a scope shot of the collapsing field  while running at 2 volts. The scope is registering 300 volt spikes. This is with the wider slimmer coil. That is the highest spike I have seen at this voltage. And just to be clear, that is charging a cap. However, the cap only reaches 60 volts (450 volt 1 mF).
Jason

tropes

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Re: Circuit setups for pulse motors
« Reply #72 on: September 23, 2007, 06:13:39 PM »
Before I quit for the day ( I'm being told I should rest ), is there someone that can tell me why my Hall switch stays "on" from time to time. The pnp transistor( tip 107) doesn't change or is not affected.
Peter

Nastrand2000

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Re: Circuit setups for pulse motors
« Reply #73 on: September 23, 2007, 06:17:07 PM »
The only reason I could guess is latent voltage in the system keeping the tunneling effect open. Get some rest.
Jason

Nastrand2000

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Re: Circuit setups for pulse motors
« Reply #74 on: September 23, 2007, 07:02:29 PM »
well I found that cleaning out my bearings with acetone then putting motor oil in them (10w-30) allows me to run this motor at 1.5 volts. Now the motor runs very quietly and it puts out a continuous 40 volts, enough to charge a 12 volt easily.
Jason