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Author Topic: Potential solution to Ed Gray's FE mechanism???  (Read 6525 times)

Offline tao

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Potential solution to Ed Gray's FE mechanism???
« on: September 11, 2007, 05:23:11 PM »
Anyone have any thoughts on this little thought experiment of mine that I have outlined in the image below?

Consider step 1 the starting condition for the system.

What do you think would happen at step 2?

Some might see where I am going with this...


« Last Edit: September 11, 2007, 10:01:26 PM by tao »

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Offline tao

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Re: Potential solution to Ed Gray's FE mechanism???
« Reply #1 on: September 11, 2007, 09:33:23 PM »
I'll forgo waiting for responses and just post how I feel it fits Gray's work...

Let me explain how this might work in the Gray scenario:

Step 1) The plate on the left is connected to a capacitor and this is being built up to a very high voltage, say 5000 volts, via an isolated battery with an ISOLATED GROUND. It is at this time that you will see current flowing on the ammeter in that right side circuit, but it is very low, and what is happening is that the electrons from the OTHER isolated ground (the one connected to the load) are moving and bunching up on the plate on the right.

Step 2) It is at this point that the plate on the left now has 5000+ volts on it and the plate on the right has a lot of bunched electrons on it from it's electrostatic interaction with the 5000+ volts plate. Remember, each of these plates have their OWN isolated ground.

Step 3) Now, the key moment happens when the plate on the left is discharged of it's 5000+ volts is an INCREDIBLY SHORT amount of time. The plate on the right with all the electrons will almost instantly take all those bunched up electrons and spread them out across the entire right circuit and back toward it's isolated ground. So, depending on how FAST you discharge the 5000+ volts, you will get a HUGE and VERY FAST moving electron flow (longitudinal?) down the entire right circuit.

Step 4) Jump back to Step 1.

So, you see, if you had an inductor in that ISOLATED right circuit, and when you INSTANTLY discharged the 5000+ volts on the left sided circuit, you would get this VERY FAST and VERY STRONG electron flow across the entire right side circuit. So, what does this mean?

It means that when we INSTANTLY discharge (remove) the 5000+ volts from the left plate, now the ENVIRONMENT (aether,vacuum) sees no voltage on that left plate and the ENVIRONMENT WILL MOVE all those bunched up electrons and EVENLY spread them out again across the entire right circuit, and send them back into it's isolated ground. This means that all that WE are inputing is the energy required to create the 5000+ volt charge on that left plate, and it is the ENVIRONMENT that is moving the electrons toward and then away from the right plate. THE ENVIRONMENT is the thing that MOVES the electrons AFTER the 5000+ volts is ABRUPTLY REMOVED from the left plate. So, we are merely modulating a CONTROL signal by placing and removing the 5000+ volts on the left plate.

This I think could definitely be related to the COLD aspect of Gray's system. Meaning, when that 5000+ volts is removed from the left plate and the electrons in the right circuit ARE INSTANTLY spread across the right side circuit and into its ISOLATED ground, it is a movement akin to a LONGITUDINAL WAVE of sorts, and since the ENVIRONMENT is the thing spreading/moving all the electrons, it can do this VERY FAST and VERY EFFICIENTLY, meaning, VERY high current pulses, and yet, ABLE to remain COLD (ie. not heat up due to the current).

Think about what happens when we FORCE current to flow in a circuit, any circuit, the electrons are being slammed into each other and told to move forward. Think about being in a room with 1000 people and told to move out a single door way, it is something like that, chaos, heat generation, slow, etc.

Now, think about what happens when the ENVIRONMENT is the thing re-spreading the electrons outward. So there is no slamming into, no heat, no chaos, only a perfectly outspreading of the electrons in a nice FAST orderly motion.

So, considering this all COULD be right...

If we look at Gray's tube we see that he had the concentric copper cylinders around a central HV electrode in his CEST. We see that the outer COPPER (more mobile electrons to BUNCH UP) cylinders would be akin to my example of the plate on the right side. The HV electrode would be akin to the plate on the left side in my example. And the series-wound electromagnets in Gray's motor would be located in the circuit akin to the circuit on the right side in my example above.

So, when the HV electrode was ABRUPTLY discharged and NOT ALLOWED to OSCILLATE, the COPPER cylinders (which before the discharge would have A LOT of bunched up electrons) would INSTANTLY and effectively have ALL the electrons in that right circuit, which contains the series-wound electromagnets, spread out VERY fast (very high current) and VERY evenly (no heat). Now, what would a VERY FAST (high amp) pulse that was ORDERLY (no heat) do to two series-wound electromagnets facing each other?

They would most certainly get the ride of their lives.....

More later....
« Last Edit: September 11, 2007, 10:01:41 PM by tao »

Offline armagdn03

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Re: Potential solution to Ed Gray's FE mechanism???
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2007, 07:16:11 PM »
If nobody else will bite, I supose I will...
This is the basis (in my opinion) for many OU devices. The following train of logic spans many devices.

One of the main themes amung OU devices is the use of a resonator, or switching device.

The most efficient of these devices employ an LC circuit (parallel).

This circuit provides maximum (theoretically infinite) impedance at a particular frequency.

If we can use this to create power, we will have a device that has almost no input power, with measurable output

This circuit uses two components, An inductor, and a capacitor.

The inductor can be used as a tap to the power either by mechanical motion (Rotoverter) or electrostatic potential guiding electron movement (TPU)

The Capacitor can be used to capture the energy via capacitive antanna or electrostatic induction (C-Stack, Teslas apparatus for the collection of radiant energy, Ed Grey, Testatika etc.)

Some devices use a some sort of negative resistor to take "power off the top" of the LC circuit in an RLC manor, but I do not believe this is necessary.

People tend to gravitate towards coils and magnitism when creating OU devices. I believe that this is what is most familiar to the avarage person. However in devices such as the TPU, we are trying to generate electrostatic events with inductors, which is almost ass backwards! Why not use electrostatic potential on the Capacitor side where the effects manifest themselves in much greater quantities?

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Re: Potential solution to Ed Gray's FE mechanism???
« Reply #2 on: September 17, 2007, 07:16:11 PM »
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Offline karl

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Re: Potential solution to Ed Gray's FE mechanism???
« Reply #3 on: November 11, 2007, 09:52:06 PM »
today I was concerned with a similar experiment...including a static charge (source dipole) and a grounded plate. you say Mr. Lindeman!
Who knows the elektrophor (german name);
Frist exposed by Volta and later by Lichtenstein?
To many energy by influence principle...
Channel the forces to one direction and let it rotate...
Best wishes from switzerland...

Offline karl

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Re: Potential solution to Ed Gray's FE mechanism???
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2007, 10:34:34 PM »
...again @tao,

attached file contains a basic experiment concerning the elektrophor.
Once loaded, the insulating cake (wax, PTFE prefered) stores an static dipole set like an electret.
This dipole is utilized to induce a separation of charges in a metallic layer.
Once when C is virtually big (low gap, zero gap), use it; again when C is virtually small (big gap).
Both connections are grounded.
Is there more energy free than used to manipulate (induce) the charges?
The experiment is repeatable over a verry long time (year) without recharging the surface ot the insulator cake.
What you do is to change the capacitance of an cap-plate-pair what is also possible while moving a dielectric sheet
or changing any other factor which influences the C.

Best wishes

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Re: Potential solution to Ed Gray's FE mechanism???
« Reply #4 on: November 11, 2007, 10:34:34 PM »
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Offline mthompson

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Re: Potential solution to Ed Gray's FE mechanism???
« Reply #5 on: November 12, 2007, 02:23:03 PM »

In your post you have touched upon some very important and fundamental concepts. I think, however, it would help to more fully develop these ideas if you were a little more precise in your use of terminology and the construction of logical sequences and relationships.

For instance, regarding terminology, I am not clear on what you mean by 'Isolated Ground'. Ground of course is another way of saying earthed, and therefore a true earthed ground can not be isolated from another as the earth is shared in common. On the other hand if you are referring instead to a return line that completes a circuit, then using the term 'ground' would not really be correct, even though it is common in motor vehicle terminology to refer to the return through the frame as the ground.

Regarding flaws in logic, most of what I see is due to apparent mis-understandings. For instance, your reference to the actual movement of electrons being a sort of Longitudinal wave effect is not correct. Electrons themselves, or what are generally referred to as electrons, move very slowly through metals - rates of millimeters per second I've read. What is actually going on is a change in electrical field potentials; and potentials can change at the speed of light, or perhaps faster, because potentials are probably related to strains in the gaseous aether. It is changes in these potentials which either create the electron phenomena as we know it, or which cause existing electrons to move in ordered flows.

Regarding the CSET acting as a capacitor: the core electrode can, as you suggest, act as a positive plate in regards to the surrounding CSET copper cylinder sheaths, but its effect would be minimal. The CSET is not designed to act as a capacitor in this manner so the electrode presents a very small surface area to the very large surrounding cylinders and they are quite far apart as far as capacitor design goes. You also have to look at the orientation of the electrical field potential: it is orientated along the axis of the electrode and the connecting path to the HV capacitor positive plate. This axial orientation will tend to focus the effects of this field on the facing spark gap surface, and not on the surrounding copper sheaths.

The CSET appears to be basically a poor man's Tesla coil of  a rather immature design which uses a form of segmented (holed) shell instead of a pancake coil secondary. Remember as Tesla experimented with the pulsed DC circuity to try and understand the mysterious exhibits of energy when large DC circuits were first switched on, he found that segmented copper cylinders seemed to attract and concentrate the energy very well. He later developed the flat pancake spiral based on these observations. Therefore the design of Gray's CSET as it appears in his patent applications seems to be at the segmented copper cylinder stage of Tesla's research; while a truly efficient evolved design would take the form of a small classic Tesla coil.

Your thoughts about the CSET acting as some sort of regular capacitor seems related to some confusion regarding what Tesla described as dynamic 'Cold' electricity, generated from the action of aether based radiant energy events, and electricity based on electro-magnetic events.

Primarily the CSET seems to perform two supplementary actions simultaneously to achieve its goal: 1) It incorporates an atmospheric electron/ion avalanche generator in its design; and 2) It uses the spike generated by this to boost the uni-directional high voltage DC pulses through a spark gap to generate bursts of radiant energy in the core electrode which can be considered the primary. It is the interaction of this radiant energy pulse with the surrounding copper sheath secondary which produces the dynamic 'Cold' electricity which energizes the circuit attached to it.

While the concept of creating electrical current by charging and discharging capacitor plates is valid, I don't know if such  currents would be 'Cold' in nature or not. An argument in favor of it would be the absence of causative magnetic influences; however, a similar absence of radiant energy would argue against it. I'd probably vote no, but its an interesting question you've raised.

One reason I thought I would respond to your post was due to your inclusion of basic Brownian movement concepts (although you didn't use that specific term), in your description of how you thought the electrons might flow due to the 'Environment'. It is interesting you did that because it is a concept of fundamental importance to understanding aetheric phenomena, but normally, in my limited experience anyway, only found in discussions among devotees of implosion technology.

Another reason is because you seem to understand that the real importance of the CSET is not so much as the energizing device for the Gray Motor, but rather as an example of devices that are capable of tapping the natural electrical energy in the environment that surrounds us constantly. armagdn03 mentions some in his reply, but I think the ones that comes closest to embodying your concepts are classic Paulson designs, which use two capacitors to produce a current as you attempted to describe. I've noticed that at times Tesla also used this design among many of the variations he employed, but Paulson used it almost exclusively.

If you are not familiar with these designs it will certainly be worth your while to research them, as aides in gaining some understanding of various methods used to vary the charge on capacitor plates. There are other designs by the way that use rotary devices that change the capacitance of the plates by varying the distance from them to another conductor. Others move the plates changing their distance from one another. In any case physical movement requires the expenditure of energy, and solid state methods that only shift the charge but don't lose it require a certain level of ingenuity not normally demonstrated on public forums.

Since the basic concepts have been in the public domain for quite some time, about the only reason I can think of why DIY kits and plans are not available and widely discussed is because those who understand how to construct such devices don't advertise the fact.

Offline fletchdaf

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Re: Potential solution to Ed Gray's FE mechanism???
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2008, 07:55:22 AM »
attached file contains a basic experiment concerning ...

kaRLfunkel, do you have it in English?


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Re: Potential solution to Ed Gray's FE mechanism???
« Reply #6 on: April 11, 2008, 07:55:22 AM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Potential solution to Ed Gray's FE mechanism???
« Reply #7 on: April 24, 2008, 04:46:11 AM »
i guess its time for a little smokyism here...

when you charge the (left) plate - to 5Kv (current is dependent upon the mass of the plate) this induces an equal and opposite charge on the (right) plate.

now, to discharge the (left) plate - creates an imbalanced charge on one plate, which does not completely dissapate through the load circuit - but rather induces another charge on the (left) plate, a % of the 5Kv - at a time constant of the dissipation of the plate on the (right). i say time constant because it does not dissapate instantly, but rather at a fraction of the speed of light (based on the resistance of the load circuit). The same would apply to the (left) plate, since you cannot dischage that instantly either.

do not forget that that a -5Kv has a similar but opposite effect as a +5Kv with respect to the alternate plate.

this induction not only affects the current flow through the load, but also the voltage. If this is done repeatedly, there will be considerable heat build-up on both plates as well as the load circuit.

one solution to this problem is to completely insulate (isolate) the (left) plate from the surrounding environment.
so as to not allow this induction to occur.