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New Battery systems => Other new battery systems => Topic started by: hansvonlieven on September 07, 2007, 05:59:38 AM

Title: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: hansvonlieven on September 07, 2007, 05:59:38 AM
G'day all,

Received to day an E-mail which said:

 I came across this article on www.cbsnews. com, sounds very interesting,
if they can actually pull it off. I am including the beginning of the
article:
(Page 1 of 2)AUSTIN, Texas, Sept. 4, 2007

(CBS/AP) Millions of inventions pass quietly through the U.S. patent
office each year. Patent No. 7,033,406 did, too, until energy insiders
spotted six words in the filing that sounded like a death knell for the
internal combustion engine.

An Austin-based startup called EEStor promised "technologies for
replacement of electrochemical batteries," meaning a motorist could
plug in a car for five minutes and drive 500 miles roundtrip between
Dallas and Houston without gasoline.


The patent is attached to this post. What do you think of this one?

Hans von Lieven

Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: Davetech on September 07, 2007, 08:54:39 PM
Story also carried on CNN today:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/TECH/09/07/electric.car.batteries.ap/index.html


If it pans out, it will even surpass the invention of toilet paper!

Seriously, though, I think it should deserve dancing in the streets around the world, IF they follow up by  developing Earth-friendly methods to collect the energy to stuff these things with.

Won't do much good if we are still burning coal and oil to charge 'em up with.

Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: Omega_0 on September 10, 2007, 10:37:02 PM
Won't do much good if we are still burning coal and oil to charge 'em up with.


Surely, its a good news.
IMO, even if we burn fossil fuels to get the electricity, a tech which eliminates the need to transport them and to burn them in each and every car is still better. Its impossible to control the pollution produced by millions of cars but its possible to do so when the pollution is centralized in power plants.

The money saved in transport and refining of oil can be used to process the harmful byproducts of power plants.
We have other options to produce power eg hydro or wind, but we dont have any choice in case of cars.
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: hansvonlieven on September 10, 2007, 10:41:59 PM
G'day all,

I thought the same as the two of you, that's why I posted this. I also thought it would cause a bit of a stir in a forum such as this, just have a look at how much interest there really is from the number of postings and the number of times this was actually read.

It would appear hardly anyone gives a stuff. Fascinating.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: lancaIV on September 10, 2007, 10:57:42 PM
www.electriclouie.com   : 4 hp per pound

S
  dL
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: hartiberlin on September 11, 2007, 03:33:53 AM
Wow I read the patent ,
31 Farad at 3500 Volts can store 52 KWh of energy.

I pray nobody will short out this big capacitor...boom...

Okay, but maybe they can make it save enough ?

But it is not realistic to charge this up just in 5 to 6 minutes !

If you need to charge it up in 6 minutes, you
would need a contineous 520 KWatts power supply at full power !

Probably a little too big for your household
wiring !
So using up half a Megawatts of power 6 minutes long
would not be possible
for the most people where they live !
So these figures are highly overestimated  and unpractical !

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: hansvonlieven on September 11, 2007, 06:57:48 AM
True Stefan,

Let us assume that they are theoretical but impractical limits.

Even if perhaps 40% to 50% of that can be achieved with special stations purpose built, charging the device it would still be revolutionary. After all we go to petrol stations now to fill our tank up.

The biggest problem with energy is not the household consumption, it is a form of cleaner energy for the transport industry and for travel. That is where the bottleneck is. That is also where most of the pollution is.

Any system that can relieve the pressure here must be something worth considering.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: d3adp00l on September 11, 2007, 07:10:04 AM
Yes but we would have to wait for "them" to give us that technology, I am not waiting for them to maximize their profit by exhausting all known technologies before releasing new ones, The same thing goes for computer cpu rollout schedules, instead of giving us the fastest processors they give us a little better than the last one to squeeze ever dollar from us before moving on. The profit maximization theory now in place in the world, is a flawed system and only leads to selfishness. Sorry about the rant.
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: hansvonlieven on September 11, 2007, 08:50:02 AM
G'day all,

There is nothing new in this d3, even in much earlier times merchants made sure all their old stock was sold before they gave you the fresh stuff. These days, at least in Australia, you can barely buy an apple or an orange that is less than 12 months old :-(

Why should technology be any different?

Pity, but only too true.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: jeffc on September 11, 2007, 12:34:48 PM
Yes but we would have to wait for "them" to give us that technology, I am not waiting for them to maximize their profit by exhausting all known technologies before releasing new ones, The same thing goes for computer cpu rollout schedules, instead of giving us the fastest processors they give us a little better than the last one to squeeze ever dollar from us before moving on. The profit maximization theory now in place in the world, is a flawed system and only leads to selfishness. Sorry about the rant.

I disagree with your characterization of the CPU industry.  Intel and AMD release serious increases in processor power every year.  And the reality is, most people don?t even begin to use the processing power they have.  And whats worse, most buy a fancy processor and then underpower it by not investing in enough memory (or slow memory).   You want a multitasking upgrade?  Put 2G or more of fast RAM on a fast motherboard with a very affordable Intel Core2 Duo.  And add a SATA drive for kicks. 

The computer hardware industry is very good at continuously delivering more for less.  Witness constantly falling CPU, hard drive, and memory prices.  Heck you can buy a quad core processor today for what a duo core cost a few months ago.   All that and most people are using Word and browsing the internet using IE.  Face it, most don?t even need the power they have. 

Could they make faster processors?  You bet, but who needs them?  Its just supply and demand.  Nice and efficient.

Regards,
jeffc
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: lltfdaniel1 on September 11, 2007, 07:58:07 PM
The Processers use closed loop, where it wastes, just think about how powerful a processer would be if it was based on a overunity circuit.

Anyways i think the whole technology thing to be a theatre, they just send more stuff out to make more profit.
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: Robb077 on September 12, 2007, 12:28:49 AM
What they don't tell you is that you cannot charge the system from a residential electrical system. Might take a bolt of lightening. Anyway, just calculate the amps being stored. Impossible from a normal residential electrical system.
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: d3adp00l on September 12, 2007, 12:41:15 AM
It would take some serious inductors to slow the charge enough not to burn your house down, most true.

And as far as the computer thing goes, very true that most don't know jack about the machine they are using except that it has some big number . But the roll out schedule is a fact, and the tech for the generations of chips are figured well in advance. And it will have to be a point that we disagree on, I believe from facts I have seen that they are holding back from what they could do, for the sake of profit, I was in the business too long to think anything else.
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: Robb077 on September 12, 2007, 01:16:05 AM
Its not just the inductors. Calculate the horsepower to go 500 miles....1 horsepower = 750 amp/hours. The electrical lines to a residence cannot supply the energy  needed in 5 minutes...IMPOSSIBLE
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: hansvonlieven on September 12, 2007, 04:38:32 AM
G'day all,

Sorry Robb, no-one mentioned that you can charge the thing at home. This kind of technology would need charging stations, similar to petrol stations now. It then becomes feasible and still worthwhile.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: Robb077 on September 12, 2007, 12:15:43 PM
One possibility is another capacitor in the recharger, possibly at home, that is charged over a longer period of time and capable of transfering its charge in 5 minutes to the auto. The only time you need a 5 minute charge is on the road anyway, which is nice to have as a possibility. For this reason, its a great idea.
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: Omega_0 on September 12, 2007, 04:26:52 PM
Any sort of electrical vehicle is a good idea however primitive and cumbersome it may initially seem.
Technology finds a way.

(Note my words :))
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: Super God on May 31, 2008, 04:31:28 PM
I saw the article.  It mentioned five minutes from a SUBSTATION.  Still, even if we limited the current to 20 Amps and 220 volts we could store enough energy to go quite a distance.  Very impressive.
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: pese on May 31, 2008, 06:53:44 PM
I saw the article.  It mentioned five minutes from a SUBSTATION.  Still, even if we limited the current to 20 Amps and 220 volts we could store enough energy to go quite a distance.  Very impressive.
No this is NOTHING.

I you have 20Amp 220V to load ONE long hour
that is 4400 wats/hour.
If you load only 6 Minutes  that you loading 1/10 of them this is 440Watt/hour.
(less than 1 HP in one hour)  Some math must be wrong here....
Pese
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: retrod on May 31, 2008, 07:35:10 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: Paul-R on June 01, 2008, 03:55:23 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EEstor
If this is a supercapacitor, then we are back to the problem of what happens
when a fuharged cap is involved in a car crash. The cap instantly discharging
would blow the car to bits.
Paul.
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: retrod on June 01, 2008, 05:32:36 PM
If this is a supercapacitor, then we are back to the problem of what happens
when a fuharged cap is involved in a car crash. The cap instantly discharging
would blow the car to bits.
Paul.

Yep, any and all operating conditions will have to be tested (especially for automotive use). If you follow the money link on the wiki (Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers) looks like they will have sufficient funding.

RD
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: alan on June 01, 2008, 06:10:18 PM
How about this:
http://www.altairnano.com/markets_energy_systems.html

Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: pese on June 01, 2008, 07:47:07 PM
Even, battery or condensor...
You will load this from electricity in FAST times.

Not ony the fully Kilowatts/hour (If you need to drive only ONE hour.

If Your car have spend 50kW/h

than you must load 500Kwatts/6minutes
for fast load !

Even if you will load 50kW/h or 500KW in 6 minutes (to charge the batteries)
your home-power-line will make problems with your experiments...


 
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: alan on June 01, 2008, 08:45:09 PM
Guess the charging line will consist of a multiphase signal  ?
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: retrod on June 01, 2008, 08:54:22 PM
Even, battery or condensor...
You will load this from electricity in FAST times.

Not ony the fully Kilowatts/hour (If you need to drive only ONE hour.

If Your car have spend 50kW/h

than you must load 500Kwatts/6minutes
for fast load !

Even if you will load 50kW/h or 500KW in 6 minutes (to charge the batteries)
your home-power-line will make problems with your experiments...


 

According to the wiki info the idea on charging the EESU is straightforward. A home based charging station charges the EESU at a slow rate (perhaps overnight when off-peak electric rates are the lowest). Then, in the morning the home based EESU is used to charge the EESU in the vehicle at a rapid rate. It remains to be seen if this is practical. The cables between the two would have to be a large size, unless they have worked out a superconductor coupling. This method also forces you to buy two EESU's. I imagine 'EESU 'filling stations' would be set-up much like the home based model except there would be many more EESU's being continously charged at a slow rate. This is not easy to picture in the short term when you look at all the issues to be overcome.

RD
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: Pirate88179 on June 08, 2008, 09:48:16 AM
I like the possible idea of  "slow" charging a large super cap at home that can dump charge the vehicle battery in a short amount of time. I know the story did not mention home charging but, someone on here suggest the large cap or caps to slow charge maybe even off-rate times and then used them to quick charge the vehicle.  A lot of good things out there just over the horizon.  I hate to, really hate to say this but, if gas were still 80 cents/gal as it was when I got my license, we would not be thinking of most, if not any, of these things.

Thanks for posting this Hans.

Bill
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: fritz on June 08, 2008, 11:03:49 AM
Anyway,

A supercap with almost infinite number of charging cycles,
which has no problem with deep discharge, built of
pretty non-toxic materials is the killer product.
Even if you think about all non-automotive applications -
think about the resources used to produce & recycle traditional
batteries/accumulators.
Let?s see how long it takes to market - anyway - a real challenge
for the industry. (think about all the money spent on research on
traditional battery/accumulator technology/production facilities)
This tops the energy density of a li-ion battery by 2.5

rgds.
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: electricme on June 13, 2009, 12:58:53 PM
@ Paul-R

If this is a supercapacitor, then we are back to the problem of what happens
when a fuharged cap is involved in a car crash. The cap instantly discharging
would blow the car to bits.
Paul.

There is only one to put this to rest, make a controlled experiment.

jim
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: gadgetmall on June 14, 2009, 04:26:51 AM
G'day all,

Received to day an E-mail which said:

 I came across this article on www.cbsnews. com, sounds very interesting,
if they can actually pull it off. I am including the beginning of the
article:
(Page 1 of 2)AUSTIN, Texas, Sept. 4, 2007

(CBS/AP) Millions of inventions pass quietly through the U.S. patent
office each year. Patent No. 7,033,406 did, too, until energy insiders
spotted six words in the filing that sounded like a death knell for the
internal combustion engine.

An Austin-based startup called EEStor promised "technologies for
replacement of electrochemical batteries," meaning a motorist could
plug in a car for five minutes and drive 500 miles roundtrip between
Dallas and Houston without gasoline.


The patent is attached to this post. What do you think of this one?

Hans von Lieven
Hello Yes i can Believe it However as i have Very Powerful Ultralcap rated at 650 Farads at 2.7 volts they use Newer Technology that has an electrolyte in them and can replace Lithium Cells in Electric Cars. Unlike a super cap an ultra cap can be Series and parallel to any Voltage and current . It will take more than 5 Minutes however say 1 hour you can get away with a household charger . the 650 Farad will Peg a 100 amp charger
for 2 minutes to full 2.7 volts and the cables will be HOT !!
Gadget
Title: Re: Drive 500 miles on a 5 minute charge, new form of electrical storage
Post by: infringer on June 14, 2009, 10:19:23 PM
Very interesting indeed!

They make armor that will stop an explosive from killing the person wearing the vest this may be the way to go I am sure the explosion could be contained well enough to allow for both vehicle occupants to survive just as easy as a gas automobile.

We need to stop making excuses for why something cant be done and instead find out how to make things work GAS is not the way to improvement! It is simply more of the same.