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Author Topic: Rotational PMM by wizkycho  (Read 60535 times)

Offline wizkycho

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Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2005, 02:19:58 PM »
Correct me when i'm wrong.
The inner magnet will follow the shield "abyss" because of repel to the outer magnets. But: The shield steal will also went towards the highest magnetic attraction and this position is where outermagnets+innermagnets provide strongest magnetic strenght. The further away the shield moves from this point, the more energy is used to move it.

Am i ignoring some facts about the shield?

-- Andi

I have updated site for this question especially.

http://starglider.netfirms.com/RPMM2only.html

Output Rotor acts on Input Rotor (shield) only with very small or even none attraction. So there is no high magnetic attraction only small or none.(looks and talks funny but it's true) when shield is remowed system opens for outside ringmagnet repel. REPULSION actually WORKS FROM THE OUTSIDE and different vector than attraction. and attraction vector is allways small.
TWO ROTORS ARE NOT ON THE SAME SHAFT. ENERGY ACTALLY FLOWS FROM PERMANENT MAGNET

carefully analyse Hill and Walley picture.
 

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Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #30 on: June 06, 2005, 02:19:58 PM »

Offline wizkycho

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Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #31 on: June 06, 2005, 02:25:42 PM »
Correct me when i'm wrong.
The inner magnet will follow the shield "abyss" because of repel to the outer magnets. But: The shield steal will also went towards the highest magnetic attraction and this position is where outermagnets+innermagnets provide strongest magnetic strenght. The further away the shield moves from this point, the more energy is used to move it.

Am i ignoring some facts about the shield?

-- Andi

shield will not go towards output rotor magnet cause theirs mutual attraction is small or none in every position (allways) of shield
in respect to output rotor magnet.

Offline ooandioo

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Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2005, 02:28:35 PM »
Ok, if the inner magnet really not provides an attraction (or small) to the shield, then i'm with you. But, i need to understand why it doesn't attract. The outer magnets attracts the shield the same way, the inner magnet does - why not  ???

-- Andi


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #32 on: June 06, 2005, 02:28:35 PM »
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m668004

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Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #33 on: June 06, 2005, 03:23:23 PM »
@ooandioo

To understand I've made a test. Please look at the picture. If you take a very thin peace of steel and then hold this in front of a pole of a strong magnet, then you have weakened the repelling forces but not neutralize them or turn it into attraction. So if you hold now another magnet with the same pol to the shielded magnet, they both repell each other but not as strong as without the shielding. And more is not needed. For this test it's important that the shielding is closer to the shielded magnet, so in no way we have attraction to the other magnet.

M.

Offline ooandioo

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Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2005, 03:40:24 PM »
Ok, i know this phenomen.
But - the more far away you put the inner magnet from the shield (in order to kill attraction), the less a repelling to the shield magnets occur. Perhaps forces are equal...

-- Andi

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #34 on: June 06, 2005, 03:40:24 PM »
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Offline wizkycho

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Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #35 on: June 06, 2005, 04:36:48 PM »
@ooandioo

To understand I've made a test. Please look at the picture. If you take a very thin peace of steel and then hold this in front of a pole of a strong magnet, then you have weakened the repelling forces but not neutralize them or turn it into attraction. So if you hold now another magnet with the same pol to the shielded magnet, they both repell each other but not as strong as without the shielding. And more is not needed. For this test it's important that the shielding is closer to the shielded magnet, so in no way we have attraction to the other magnet.

M.

1. Your shield DOES NOT "HANDSHAKE" (NOT U shaped like it should be) south pole which would VERY VERY GREATLY LOWER down REPEL force and allow You to move your right magnet much much closer. South pole will compensate north poles repel (some of it).


2. needed small ATTRACTION CAN OCCUR in TWO cases

? ? ?a. If You now move slowly Your right magnet further appart You will come to the point where NO forces ATTR Or REPEL occurs This is zero zone (have You heard of it. think its edvin grey or garry but this zone really exists try it) and is not that narrow as I have represented it in callibration animation. if moving further appart (slowly) You can feel slight attraction. this is the right distance. still magnet no close enough ? go read b. method.

? ? ?b. (1. must be made first - u shaped to close on itself south)? method more appropriate for working device. make the shield thicker so that one magnet's (ring) complete flux? closes on its own south and satturate steel (high permeable(4000) steel, with high satturation 1.3T - if higher could be thiner.) to say from 80 to 95 % of its max. satturation. Then the other (right) magnet can now again move much closer cause part of its field can (missing 5 - 20 % to steel's max satturation) penertrate shield and close to south (of ring mag) through steel. Now move the right magnet again closer till you feel slight repel then slowly appart till you feel slight attract (little behind zero zone). Now there is the best position for the rotor magnet.
If You think that magnet is still too distanced to fully catch repel when shield removes - make thicker shield and callibrate again.

Rotor magnet must be allways on or little behind zero zone (see the callibration animation) to feel none or little attraction. This sounds like pretty neat job but actually can be done in minutes with no any meassuring devices but fingers.

even If You miss exact spot you still have slight repel (well don't push it as donkey would) and that repel is still Walley against strong outer ring repel Hill.


m668004

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Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2005, 08:17:59 PM »
@wizkycho

I don't want to use such a flat shield for a device like yours. It was only a quick test. Nothing more.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #36 on: June 06, 2005, 08:17:59 PM »
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Offline ooandioo

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Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #37 on: June 06, 2005, 08:47:51 PM »
Ok. If there really is a zero point and you can adjust the inner magnets to head it, the machine would do what is should.
Still i believe, the zero point is right to far away from the shield so the repell force of the outer magnets are quite to less to provide extra power while rotating.
I think we'll have to test it practically. I dont't know, i believe we are missing something here...

-- Andi

m668004

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Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2005, 08:56:43 PM »
ooandioo:

Quote
I think we'll have to test it practically. I dont't know, i believe we are missing something here...

Yes, to build such a machine would give last certainty. I think it wouldn't be that expensive or complicated.

M.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #38 on: June 06, 2005, 08:56:43 PM »
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m668004

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Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #39 on: June 07, 2005, 12:11:46 AM »
@wizkycho and all

To allow an easy to build device I changed the design a little bit. Please look at the picture. Only 3 magnets would be needed. 1 ringmagnet as stator and 2 diskmagnets as output-rotor. The picture is only a scheme. In my opinion this design would work too if the working principle is valid. What do you think?

M.
« Last Edit: June 07, 2005, 12:59:00 AM by m668004 »

Offline wizkycho

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Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2005, 12:18:59 AM »
Ok. If there really is a zero point and you can adjust the inner magnets to head it, the machine would do what is should.
Still i believe, the zero point is right to far away from the shield so the repell force of the outer magnets are quite to less to provide extra power while rotating.
I think we'll have to test it practically. I dont't know, i believe we are missing something here...

-- Andi

I 99% think that Sillicon Iron, very easy to find and it is used for transformer cores it has permeability 7000 and high satturation, would do and position of zero point can even enter into shield itself.

I will soon make some shield tests and see if rotor magnet can get close enough.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #40 on: June 07, 2005, 12:18:59 AM »
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Offline ooandioo

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Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #41 on: June 07, 2005, 12:32:48 AM »
@wizkycho
I did some tests with simple stainless steel and strong magnets. Perhaps you are right. If you find a good point for the inner magnet to the shield, the attractions of the shield is less than the repulsion to the outer magnet...but its only a feeling. Would like to have good technique in order to measure N.

@m668004
How will you carry the outer ring magnet if the shield is closed at all sides? If you stay with U-form its working. Your idea of putting the "inner magnets" on the top is easier to build and to adjust.

-- Andi

m668004

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Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #42 on: June 07, 2005, 12:57:51 AM »
@ooandioo

Quote
@m668004
How will you carry the outer ring magnet if the shield is closed at all sides? If you stay with U-form its working.

I'm sorry. I simply didn't realize that. I have corrected the picture.

M.

Offline wizkycho

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Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #43 on: June 07, 2005, 08:54:41 AM »
@wizkycho and all

To allow an easy to build device I changed the design a little bit. Please look at the picture. Only 3 magnets would be needed. 1 ringmagnet as stator and 2 diskmagnets as output-rotor. The picture is only a scheme. In my opinion this design would work too if the working principle is valid. What do you think?

M.

to properly block repel force with the as thinner shield possible shield must cover the area where the south is strongest.

Offline wizkycho

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Re: Rotational PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #44 on: June 07, 2005, 09:18:31 AM »
@wizkycho and all

To allow an easy to build device I changed the design a little bit. Please look at the picture. Only 3 magnets would be needed. 1 ringmagnet as stator and 2 diskmagnets as output-rotor. The picture is only a scheme. In my opinion this design would work too if the working principle is valid. What do you think?

M.

I Thought twice... As You can see there are two types (for now) as how shield can be applied.
"wrong type" maybe is not that wrong because main north field is separated in left and right filed which are two times weaker than together so looking like that shield can be thinner (and not to get satturated 100%), but then again some of the North repel field will escape scince strongest area of South pole is not covered with shield, making repel action stronger

really it needs some magnets, 0.5mm Iron-Si plates... little bending of sheets and I think in two hours we can conclude which type of shield deserves our attention.

Your design looks simpler to build (I give it complexity of design 20%) so lets proceeed. Now the only custom type magnet is the ring magnet.
any idea where we can find one cheap ? i would like one 20cm diameter with 2cm magnet width and 1 cm magnet height NdFeB of course.

 

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