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Author Topic: Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor  (Read 24218 times)

Offline hartiberlin

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Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor
« on: August 24, 2007, 06:29:55 PM »
Have a look at this new nanoparticel carbon in cellulose paper cell:

http://news.rpi.edu/update.do?artcenterkey=2280&setappvar=page(1)

Very interesting !


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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor
« Reply #1 on: August 24, 2007, 06:37:54 PM »
It is a very interesing idea to put conductive carbon or graphite into
its own cellulose paper and thus build bigger conductive graphite paper plates this way.

Now what was new to me is, that there exists ionic liquids,
that have just ions in them.

That is the perfect fuel for these paper electrodes, as a supercapacitor
is just working this way, that it has a soaked up ions in its electrode mesh.

Thus the ions charge up the electrode plates and when one electrode
plate has positive ions in them and the other electrode plate has
negative ions in them you can connect a load between the electrodes and
a current will flow...

Now, how do we get cheap ionic liquids ?

How can we just charge up water and sperate it, so that one
can get one bottle full of OH- ions and one bottle
of H3O+ ions ?

Any idea ?

Put one graphite paper plate in OH-
and another one in H3O+ and
voila you have a very nice refillable battery/supercapacitor
which can be refilled just by the ionic liquids !

Regards, Stefan.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2007, 06:43:15 PM »
Does anyone find their paper:

"Flexible Energy Storage Devices Based on Nanocomposite Paper"

anywhere on the net and can post it here ?
Many thanks.

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Re: Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor
« Reply #2 on: August 24, 2007, 06:43:15 PM »
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Offline ResinRat2

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Re: Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2007, 06:54:00 PM »
Hi Stephan,

Just have one container of Acid (H3O+ <--> H+ + H2O) Say hydrochloric or sulfuric acid, that will give you your hydronium ions.

and the other container of Base ( H2O <--> H+ + OH-) say sodium or potassium hydroxide, that will give you your hydroxide ions.

Wait a minute, lol, does this sound like a battery? Very interesting. It will probably work just like a battery too.

Advantages? Not sure.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2007, 07:10:41 PM »
Hi ResinRat,
no, we need a ionic liquid
where we don?t have charge equilibrium !

So how can we extract from water just the OH- ions for example ?
or have more OH- ions in water than H+ ( or H3O+) ions ?

Can this be done by charging up water somehow in 2 containers ?
One which will be more positive and one will be more negative ?


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Re: Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2007, 07:10:41 PM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor
« Reply #5 on: August 24, 2007, 07:14:01 PM »
Hmm,I am puzzled and mixed up now...
Does an acid have more H+ ions than its Minus ions ?

and
Does a Base have more OH- ions than Positive H+ ions ?

Offline ResinRat2

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Re: Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2007, 07:50:40 PM »
Hmm,I am puzzled and mixed up now...
Does an acid have more H+ ions than its Minus ions ?

and
Does a Base have more OH- ions than Positive H+ ions ?

Yes to both. The acid disassociates almost completely as in the case of hydrochloric acid (strong acid):
HCl --> H+ + Cl- this automatically gives an excess of H+ ions in the aqueous solution. The only other compound the hydrogen ion has to bond with in the aqueous solution is the water molecule in this way: H2O + H+ <--> H3O+.

The base dissociates as well as with sodium hydroxide (strong base). NaOH --> Na+ + OH-

This automatically gives an excess of OH- ions in the aqueous solution. Since water by itself has a small dissociation constant it also dissociates naturally (very small concentration in normal water)

H2O <--> H+ + OH-.

So the excess OH- ions in the base solution would push the equilibrium to the water side.   This should give you what you are looking for.

I am just not sure if the Na+ concentration of ions in the basic solution and the Cl-in the acid solution would somehow alter the potential for making a current. Maybe this would be the reason it wouldn't work? I am not sure.

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Re: Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor
« Reply #6 on: August 24, 2007, 07:50:40 PM »
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Offline ResinRat2

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Re: Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2007, 09:03:10 PM »
Sorry, I missed where it says that there is no water in this ionic liquid. Sorry Stephan. I'm on the wrong track.

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2007, 11:28:03 AM »
G'day all,

Perhaps just a little off the subject, but have a look at this:

10/November/2005
Singapore Scientists Develop Personal Biochip Battery

(Singapore) -- Physicists in Singapore have succeeded in creating the first paper battery that generates electricity from urine. This new battery will be the perfect power source for cheap, disposable healthcare test-kits for diseases such as diabetes.

Scientists in research groups around the world are trying to design ever smaller ?biochips? that can test for a variety of diseases at once, give instant results, and, crucially, can be mass produced cheaply. However, until now, no one has been able to solve the problem of finding a power source as small and as cheap to fabricate as the detection technology itself.

Led by Dr. Ki Bang LEE, a research team at Singapore?s Institute of Bioengineering and Nanotechnology (IBN) have developed a paper battery that is small, cheap to fabricate, and which ingeniously uses the bio-fluid being tested (e.g. urine) as the power source for the testing device.

The chemical composition of urine is widely used as a way of testing for telltale signs of various diseases and as an indicator of a person?s general state of health. For example, the concentration of glucose in urine is a useful diagnostic tool for diabetics. The lead researcher, Dr. LEE, envisions a world where people will easily be able to monitor their health at home using disposable test-kits that do not need lithium batteries or external power sources.

Dr. LEE said, ?We are striving to develop cheap, disposable credit card-sized biochips for disease detection. Our battery can be easily integrated into such devices, supplying electricity upon contact with bio-fluids such as urine.?
Page 7 of 12 ATIP Japan Office Harks Bldg, 1F 6-15-21 Roppongi Minato-ku Tokyo 106-0032 Japan www.atip.org

The battery unit is made from a layer of paper that is steeped in copper chloride (CuCl) and sandwiched between strips of magnesium and copper. This ?sandwich? is laminated to keep it together. Lamination involves wrapping the ?sandwich? in transparent plastic film and passing it through a roller heated to 120?C. The final product has dimensions of 60 mm x 30 mm, and a thickness of just 1 mm (a little bit smaller than a credit card).

Writing in the Journal of Micromechanics and Microengineering, Dr. LEE describes how the battery was created and quantifies its performance. Using 0.2 mL of urine, they generated a voltage of around 1.5 V with a corresponding maximum power of 1.5 mW. Dr. Lee?s research team also found that the battery?s performance (such as voltage, power or duration) may be designed or adjusted by changing the geometry or materials used.


?Our urine-activated battery would be integrated into biochip systems for healthcare diagnostic applications,? says Dr. LEE. He envisions a world where people will easily be able to monitor their health at home, seeking medical attention only when necessary. ?These fully integrated biochip systems have a huge market potential,? adds Dr. LEE.
The work complements the "Intelligence Toilet" system, created by Japan's largest lavatory company, Toto, that can measure sugar levels in urine, blood pressure, body fat, and weight, but costs nearly US$3000.

(Source: Journal of Micromechanics and Microengineering)

Hans von Lieven

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Re: Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2007, 11:28:03 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2007, 03:42:51 PM »
Hi Hans,
it is not an urine battery, but just an urine ACTIVATED battery !

The consuming elements are still copper and mostly the magnesium metals !
The urine is just the electrolyte, but the most expensive consumed materials
are copper and magnesium in this design...

If anybody finds a battery solution, where only the urine is consumed,
please post it here.
Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2007, 10:18:26 PM »
Hmm,I am puzzled and mixed up now...
Does an acid have more H+ ions than its Minus ions ?

and
Does a Base have more OH- ions than Positive H+ ions ?

Yes to both. The acid disassociates almost completely as in the case of hydrochloric acid (strong acid):
HCl --> H+ + Cl- this automatically gives an excess of H+ ions in the aqueous solution. The only other compound the hydrogen ion has to bond with in the aqueous solution is the water molecule in this way: H2O + H+ <--> H3O+.

The base dissociates as well as with sodium hydroxide (strong base). NaOH --> Na+ + OH-

This automatically gives an excess of OH- ions in the aqueous solution. Since water by itself has a small dissociation constant it also dissociates naturally (very small concentration in normal water)

H2O <--> H+ + OH-.

So the excess OH- ions in the base solution would push the equilibrium to the water side.   This should give you what you are looking for.

I am just not sure if the Na+ concentration of ions in the basic solution and the Cl-in the acid solution would somehow alter the potential for making a current. Maybe this would be the reason it wouldn't work? I am not sure.

Hi ResinRat and All,

I did yeasterday an experiment with 25 % vinegar acid in one drinking glas with a graphite rod
in there and in a second drinking glas NaOH solution from a lye pipe cleaner with also a graphite rod
in there as the second electrode.

If you connect the 2 drinking glasses with a soaked paper saltwater "bridge" made from paper
towel soaked into saltwater, then you will get a voltage onto
the 2 graphite rods of about 0.1 Volts.
If I replaced the saltwater soaked paper towel with an alufoil
bridge touching in the first glas the acid and in the other
glas the NaOH solution base,
the voltage was about 0.2 Volts, but the short circuit current was quite low,
in the range of only 50 mikroamps, not very useful.

So as a base or acid solution is still
neutral all in all in its own charge, this does not work.
So we really need ionic liquids, where the liquid already is "charged".

So we need 2 ionic liquids, one charged positively and one charged negatively
to get a good fuel cell.

Regards, Stefan.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor
« Reply #10 on: September 13, 2007, 10:18:26 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor
« Reply #11 on: December 11, 2007, 07:52:50 AM »
the ionic fluid is a specialized liquid that "accepts" oins very easily.

the charge is applied with an electric current. and is already at about a 2% effeciency.

meaning 98% of the electricity used was wasted in the charging process.
if you were to find a way to convert ALL of the ion-pairs in both fluids back into electricity you would only get back 2% of the energy required to energize the fluids.

this stuff was designed more for experimental purposes than as an economically viable medium for energy transfer.


Offline ResinRat2

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Re: Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2007, 08:41:22 PM »
Hi Stefan,

I was looking back on this and I wonder if the use of powerful magnets could help separate the charges. I am thinking of a positive side of one magnet exposed on one side of a container and the negative side of another magnet exposed on the other side of the container. This should concentrate the charges on opposite sides of the container. This would also repel like charges to further segregate the ions.

Would this be enough to generate a current directly from the liquid? In this case I am thinking of any liquid that separates completely, as say an NaOH or KOH solution. I don't happen to have any powerful magnets to try this with, and I also don't have the carbon rods either; but I think you can see what I am getting at.

NaOH ---> Na+ + OH- solution.

Na+ on one side of the container and OH- ions on the other side of the container.

No salt bridge needed, all in the same container.

Just an idea.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2007, 10:04:45 PM by ResinRat2 »

Offline Pontifex

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Re: Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor
« Reply #13 on: December 14, 2007, 09:24:24 PM »
Does anyone find their paper:

"Flexible Energy Storage Devices Based on Nanocomposite Paper"

anywhere on the net and can post it here ?
Many thanks.

Flexible energy storage devices based on nanocomposite paper

Victor L. Pushparaj *, Manikoth M. Shaijumon *, Ashavani Kumar *, Saravanababu Murugesan , Lijie Ci *, Robert Vajtai, Robert J. Linhardt, Omkaram Nalamasu *, and Pulickel M. Ajayan *

Departments of *Materials Science and Engineering and Chemical and Biological Engineering, and Center for Biotechnology and Interdisciplinary Studies, Rensselaer Nanotechnology Center; Rensselaer Polytechnic Institute, Troy, NY 12180

Communicated by Mildred S. Dresselhaus, Massachusetts Institute of Technology, Cambridge, MA, July 11, 2007 (received for review February 23, 2007)

=> see attachment!

Offline hansvonlieven

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Re: Nanocarbon paper battery - supercapacitor
« Reply #14 on: December 14, 2007, 10:10:11 PM »
G'day all,

Dave, do you mean an arrangement like this one below?

Hans von Lieven

 

OneLink