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Author Topic: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas  (Read 185056 times)

oystla

• Newbie
• Posts: 21
Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #30 on: October 16, 2007, 10:12:34 PM »
Hello Stefan,

I'd like to make some clarification regarding your calculations of overunity for electrolysis.

1. Because a liter is a unit of volume, the mass of HHO gas in a liter will vary with ambient pressure and temperature according to the Ideal Gas Law, i.e.  PV = nRT.  Since energy release from burning HHO depends on mass rather than volume of the gas, it's better to assess overunity based on HHO mass produced by electrolysis.

OK;

1. Most experimenters I've seen measure the actual gas volume production.

So therefore we should of course propose a simple formula they may use to calculate the efficiency based on actual gas volume produced. Gas volume will here mean the O2 / H2 mixture together with some water vapor.

2. The formula I propose and which is accurate to wathever degree is required here is:

EFFICIENCY (%) = 100 * 7744 * V /(U*I*t)  where

V= Volume H2/O2 gas produced in liters
U = Voltage
I= Amperage
t= Test period in seconds

The above formula is calculated from ideal gas law and Daltons law.

Assumptions included in the formula
- Gas collected holds 20 degC. However, If it is instead 10 degC or 30 degC, it will only have marginal consequences.
- Gas collected holds 1 atmospheric pressure, which is very close to the truth in most cases.
- The collected gas is saturated with water vapor, since most experimenters use a bubbler to collect the gas.

And yes, Higher heating value of Hydrogen is 141,9 KJ/g.

So forget about mass basis calculations. My formula is fit for purpose and is more than accurate enough for any experimenters needs.

regards
?ystein

shimondoodkin

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 72
Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #31 on: December 08, 2007, 05:36:17 AM »
there might be an overunity the other way.
lol

for example you make hydrogen and oxygen from water then on the higher place you combine air oxygen with extracted hydrogen.
the extracted oxygen go to the floor and the oxygen from the ceiling is burned with the extracted hydrogen.

it is like moving oxygen up without moving it.
i guess such process should take heat from surrounding

Tacmatricx

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 74
Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #32 on: January 26, 2008, 06:40:48 PM »
In that case... Does this look right?

In a collected volume of O2/H2 gas the amount of hydrogen energy will be 7744 Joules pr liter collected gas.

1L = 7744J

1000cm3 = 7744J

1cm3 = 7.744J

1J = 1 / 7.744 = 0.1291cm3

H2 + O2 gas at normal atmospheric pressure has 7.744J/cm3 or 0.1291cm3/J

The Average small home uses 1000kWh per month

1kWh = 3,600,000J

1000kWh * 12 = 12,000kWh per year

12,000kWh / 52 weeks = 230.7692kWh per week

230.7692kWh per week / 7 days = 32.9670kWh per day

32.9670kWh / 24 = 1.3736kWh per hour

1.3736kWh per hour = 4,944,960J per hour

4,944,960J per hour * 0.1291cm3/J = 638,394.3360cm3 of gas per hour or 638.3943l per hour

638.3943l per hour / 60 = 10.6399l per minute to supply a 1000kWh per month house?

(This is assuming 100% efficiency converting it from H2 and O2 to Electricity)

If a fuel cell was 60% efficient then you'd need another 30% of gas to make up the thermal losses.

magnetrecharge

• Newbie
• Posts: 7
Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #33 on: April 24, 2008, 02:25:10 AM »
Did any of you run the calculations to run a ICE on hydrogen?  You guy's are just to funny.
The amount of oxyhydrogen needed to run an internal combustion engine is spectacular. Idling a small engine (e.g. 5hp) would require 500-1000 LPH (liters per hour), while idling a car engine would probably consume about 3000LPH of oxyhydrogen. Driving down the highway would probably consume 20000-30000 LPH of oxyhydrogen. Have fun.

ramset

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7888
Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #34 on: April 24, 2008, 02:51:57 AM »
well I guess Meyer  Boyce Dingle etc etc etc must be comedians or magicians

magnetrecharge

• Newbie
• Posts: 7
Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #35 on: April 24, 2008, 03:39:45 AM »
Well I am sorry to have be the one to throw a wrench in but it's true. In all of meyers videos he lucky to be producing 1LPM. I have been expiermenting with a mock up cell so I have pretty good idea visually.
Quite frankly I think they are all full of shit and good at magic. I mean what the hell? David blain can walk on water and shit. I will have you know I work with the best and I have 200 HP car dyno at my disposal as well a one million dollars worth of research equipment so if anyone really wants to show me they can. There is just one catch. you won't be fooling me becuase I will hook up every piece of equipment including the gas samplers. In all the videos on youtube there is one flow meter and it's telling the truth. 40 amps for 2 LPM.
No one has proven anything and those that claim crazy numbers can't be contacted. Hmmmm, what would that be? This is bull shit but have fun.

Creativity

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 266
Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #36 on: April 24, 2008, 12:55:31 PM »
Did any of you run the calculations to run a ICE on hydrogen?  You guy's are just to funny.
The amount of oxyhydrogen needed to run an internal combustion engine is spectacular. Idling a small engine (e.g. 5hp) would require 500-1000 LPH (liters per hour), while idling a car engine would probably consume about 3000LPH of oxyhydrogen. Driving down the highway would probably consume 20000-30000 LPH of oxyhydrogen. Have fun.

actually i did calculations right here and i agree with u that it needs a huge amounts of HHo to run a car:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4424.0.html

I gave also good arguments on HHO addition in other theads.So when somone says he is running his car on HHO only i just smile.Anyhow HHO addition can shift the lean burning limit of existing fuel mixture,so it makes some space for engine tuning to boost mpg,BUT u actually have to adjust your engine ,otherwise i see it difficult to work as a pure add-on system.

ramset

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7888
Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #37 on: April 24, 2008, 02:03:29 PM »
MAGNA  nice to have you here  your obviosly interested in the truth   so am I  and others here  at the top of this Forum on left side is a board click on Zero point energy  a fellow wrote an article  yesterday on this and has links to the new devices BIG production  people that should talk to you and want to[ I hope]   Chet PS heres the link also another article on GEET above this one   jibbguy/ http://www.opednews.com
« Last Edit: April 24, 2008, 02:23:45 PM by ramset »

magnetrecharge

• Newbie
• Posts: 7
Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #38 on: April 24, 2008, 02:33:19 PM »
Well let's just say I have an open mind. I am not a nay sayer but no one has provided me with anything but claims.
I will say this. I try and stick to the law's.  That said I have observed strange things. I have a very large iron core choke
that came out of a frequency drive system. It's weighs about 15 pounds!I am using a 150 MM h2 flow meter. Without the choke the cell is producing about 40mm. With the choke installed it climbs to 70. In either case there was a definite increase with pulsed frequency.  I can say without a doubt that there is something going on with PWM. I am only using a simple circuit with a signal generator. I am current limited  to 2 amps. This is what is puzzling. On the scope  I'm reading upwards of 80 volt PP spikes on the scope. Note that I wm working in the 20 volt range. It seems to produce the best in the 15 to 50 KH range. Note that I am not using the fancy Lawton circuit yet.

So here is my report and itst 100% unbiased accurate.
I will try and retest today.

No pulse at 2 amps current limited.  20 MM HHO gas.
Pulse          "                             "   30 MM  "         "
Pulse with large choke in series
with the positive side.                     70 MM  "         "

ramset

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7888
Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #39 on: April 24, 2008, 02:47:28 PM »
Magna your the guy thats been missing here someone to verify the results LanMasterd Feynman Z monkey and others are simplifying the PWM to a computer device  you should look in  alot of hard work already done by very skilled and determined men   Chet

Tacmatricx

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 74
Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2008, 04:43:59 PM »
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm03r0.pdf

ICE's are one of the least efficient methods for using Hydrogen imho... It would make much more sense to use a Hydrogen fuel cell, batteries and an electric motor.

If platinum was cheaper or an alternate was found... we'd all be driving electric cars.

magnetrecharge

• Newbie
• Posts: 7
Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2008, 11:43:06 PM »
Magna your the guy thats been missing here someone to verify the results LanMasterd Feynman Z monkey and others are simplifying the PWM to a computer device  you should look in  alot of hard work already done by very skilled and determined men   Chet

I can't verify without info or unit to test. That said I have some new numbers. I am not a numbers guy but
I have done many controlled tests and I am very good at it. Here is the latest updated numbers.

Straight juice no pulse with a 6 cell Myer style. 316 stainless tubes.
Current draw 4.3 amps. Supply over current limit so voltage is low. Maybe .03.

Produces 60 CC of Gas Steady.

Pulsed circut with no choke in line.
Volatge is 30 across cell at 2.85 amps.

40 CC of gas steady.       40 volts PP on scope.

Pulsed circut with choke. 2.5 amps 30 volts across cell.

68  CC of gas.                75 volts PP on scope

Note that the increase in gas corresponds with the scope reading.
This suggest that Back EMF is indeed playing a role here.
If anything I am very intrigued by what I see.

Because I can monitor gas flow real time it's easy to experiment and I will be doing just that
with different circuits and chokes.

magnetrecharge

• Newbie
• Posts: 7
Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #42 on: April 25, 2008, 12:28:06 AM »
http://www1.eere.energy.gov/hydrogenandfuelcells/tech_validation/pdfs/fcm03r0.pdf

ICE's are one of the least efficient methods for using Hydrogen imho... It would make much more sense to use a Hydrogen fuel cell, batteries and an electric motor.

If platinum was cheaper or an alternate was found... we'd all be driving electric cars.

Here is the problem in a nut shell and don't count HHO  out yet,
People want and need a cheap way to boost millage. My agenda is simple and
maybe practical. Most people can't afford electric cars and want or need the power of an ICE.
Modifying a car to run on gas and electric is expensive and most people don't have the skills
to make one them selves.

It may be possible with a 70% effeicent cell to produce enough HHO to get a 80% increase in fuel economy
using battery's charged up at home. I have plenty of room in the back of my car for battery's.
The concept is cost and return based to me not efficiency  as it would be with most consumers.
If one could get a cell to produce 50 LPM  for even  40 minutes on the battery's that would get me to work and back
and could provide a huge boost in millage. The idea is to charge the battery bank at home on the grid and would come at a cost of about 1 dollar for say, 4 battery's.  50 LPM or 3000 LPH is 80% sufficient to for cruising  speeds and would require little or no fuel from the engine discounting acceleration's hills and wind. This is based on simple dyne that I do all the time. In other words you are using 80% HHO and 20% fuel. The typical Road load horse power is about 10 to 15 at 60 MPH depending on the weight of the vehicle.

I don't  and can't subscribe to claims of HHO boosters getting 60MPG. It does not add up. Those cells are using brute force at 50 to 60 amps. That's a cost of 1 horse power from the cars alternator. So one can see that at cruising speeds that's a 10% millage penalty. Consider that with the fact that you are producing less then 1/2 horse power worth of HHO. People are overlooking one simple fact.
It's dirt cheap to charge battery's.  The standard electric car cost's about 2 cents per mile to charge. Yep, that's right. 100 miles
would cost you 2 bucks at today's electrical rates. I think my idea warrants  investigation. Especially when you consider you could use solar or wind power to charge your battery's. I believe that we overlook very possible things that would help us all out a great deal while trying to do the impossible. It could very well be that Stan Meyer made a very efficient cell perhaps upwards of 90%. I don't believe he had over unity  because I just don't think that's possible but that doesn't mean I won't keep an open mind. I really respect you guy's but I do think a lot of you take large steps without taking baby ones first. In other words how about we all focus our efforts on unity and then we can look more into over unity? The nay sayers are your friends to but if they see that we can accomplish  what I said above that will get some attention to the cause. If Meyer had a cell that was upwards of 90% that is not something to sneeze at!  I propose that some of you work with me in creating 70% efficient electrolysis because I believe it is attainable in the near future. If anyone thinks they have already done that I would like to work with you and incorporate my idea in a test car.  In the quest for the impossible we often over look the possible. Of course the opposite is true. Sometimes in the quest for the impossible we discover the possible! If we are to have mainstream
science take us seriously we must strive to use good science and real numbers.

ramset

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7888
Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #43 on: April 25, 2008, 12:52:53 AM »
MAG sounds good  Have you looked in on the cold electricity thread ? DR Stiffler  has apparently done a lot of research on hydrogen production and says he is going to share this knowledge here at overunity he is bringing a group of  people up to speed on a circuit right know and then will go to hydrogen production however I wood gladly assist you in any way possible because the ability you have to test in real time is just what is needed here  Chet

magnetrecharge

• Newbie
• Posts: 7
Re: Formular to calculate energy per liter of HHO gas
« Reply #44 on: April 25, 2008, 01:00:17 AM »
MAG sounds good  Have you looked in on the cold electricity thread ? DR Stiffler  has apparently done a lot of research on hydrogen production and says he is going to share this knowledge here at overunity he is bringing a group of  people up to speed on a circuit right know and then will go to hydrogen production however I wood gladly assist you in any way possible because the ability you have to test in real time is just what is needed here  Chet

That would be great.  Please keep me informed!  I will check out the other threads! I am a labview programmer by the way.
I have hardware to do the testing as well.