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Author Topic: PMM by wizkycho  (Read 22216 times)

m668004

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Re: PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2005, 12:57:35 PM »
@all

What do you think about this? 4 diskmagnets were used. The 2 outer magnets are connected by an rotating axis. The 2 inner magnets were connected to move freely in horizontal direction. When the axis is rotating, one of the inner magnets get repelled, the other attracted, so the work required to repell will compensated by the attraction of the other side, so the total amount of work to rotate the 2 outer magnets is very small, maybe smaller then the work done by the inner pushed and pulled magnets.

M.
« Last Edit: June 03, 2005, 01:32:07 PM by m668004 »

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Re: PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #15 on: June 03, 2005, 12:57:35 PM »

Offline wizkycho

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Re: PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #16 on: June 03, 2005, 01:00:43 PM »
It's not meaningful to do the certain things and this scheme is described in Museum unworkable devices. And besides I tried many schemes, so this one is substantially clear to me.

But THIS scheme works a little differently:
http://kalinin-engine.com/index.html
Quote

Sorry I haven't seen this blasphemous "museum". What it says ? can You send a link to it.
Or would be much appropriate to say in Your own words and facts WHY it won't work.

BTW: complexity of proposed design exceeds practicality.

m668004

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Re: PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2005, 01:15:12 PM »
@wizkycho

Here is the link, but I think, your device operates in an other mode, so it's not the same like in the museum. I think yours will work.

http://www.lhup.edu/~dsimanek/museum/unwork.htm

M.

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Re: PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #17 on: June 03, 2005, 01:15:12 PM »
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Offline wizkycho

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Re: PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #18 on: June 03, 2005, 01:50:11 PM »
@all

What do you think about this? 4 diskmagnets were used. The 2 outer magnets are connected by an rotating axis. The 2 inner magnets were connected to move freely in horizontal direction. When the axis is rotating, one of the inner magnets get repelled, the other attracted, so the work required to repell will compensated by the attraction of the other side, so the total amount of work to rotate the 2 outer magnets is very small.

M.

very nice try but:

magnetfieldstrenght= magnetstrenght/distance^2
small distance rise means large field strenght weakening

let magnet on right is in attract mode to piston
let magnet on left is in repulsion mode to piston
     therefore attraction magnet is much CLOSER to piston then repel magnet is
     therefore ATTRACTION force is STRONGER than repel force. (cause attractor magnet is closer)
     therefore a lot of force must be applied to unstick from attraction wich prevails in this setup.

         Design made like this won't work ! Am I right ?


m668004

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Re: PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2005, 02:22:29 PM »
@wizkycho

Thank you for your answer. The two inner magnets (piston) can move freely and easily. So when for example the left magnet gets in repulsion mode, the piston can move easily away and has not to wait until the full repulsion is arrived. Perhaps this makes a small but importent differences.

M.

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Re: PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #19 on: June 03, 2005, 02:22:29 PM »
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Offline ooandioo

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Re: PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #20 on: June 03, 2005, 03:49:55 PM »
Sorry, won't work. Will stuck in the middle position.
Will work if shielding material really "shield" it. I've heard about this material (military applications), but never seen.

You didn't say WHY would it stuck (it is very important to say)?
Like i said this is not "disapearer of flux" (shield) this is mearly PUSH PULL BALANCER but resultant only looks like the part of the field strenght disapeared.

let's not waste to much time on the obvious:
NAKED FACT: Two magnets opposing each other with like poles will get closer if between them stands permeable material and will get further appart if that material is removed !
BTW: military doesn't have it, knowone has it - only god. there is no cancelation of mag. flux only it's rearangement and vector change.

The principle is very clear to understand, i think. The idea itself is also nice but what permeable material will you use. Any metal will also be attracted by the magnets (e.g. MU Metal)...

-- Andi

Offline wizkycho

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Re: PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2005, 07:18:13 PM »
@wizkycho

Thank you for your answer. The two inner magnets (piston) can move freely and easily. So when for example the left magnet gets in repulsion mode, the piston can move easily away and has not to wait until the full repulsion is arrived. Perhaps this makes a small but importent differences.

M.

let rotating side magnets represents input energy Ei
let piston (with its magnets) represent output Eo
let Ef is friction energy loss.
let Eu(usefull) is additional work that piston does when under load

      if piston is NOT under load Ei must be exactly enough to move the mass of the piston + Ef
         therefore your Eo=Ei-Ef => Eo<Ei
      if piston IS under load (pushing some other mass) the input energy must be exactly enough to move Eo(piston) + Eu(add work) + Ef
        in your setup any load or usefull work is transfered directly to input (like in any other no worth mentioning todays motor)
        therefore Ei=Eo+Eu+Ef => Ei is rising lineary with load Eo+Eu<Ei

the only thing that can come to rescue your device (but it is very streched)

http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/2magpup.htm

the tangential force is LESS THAN the axial repulsive force
which would give your device COP factor arround 2

now come to think of it device would WORK  :o but not the way You explained it

Well done.



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Re: PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #21 on: June 03, 2005, 07:18:13 PM »
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Offline wizkycho

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Re: PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #22 on: June 03, 2005, 07:29:34 PM »
Quote

The principle is very clear to understand, i think. The idea itself is also nice but what permeable material will you use. Any metal will also be attracted by the magnets (e.g. MU Metal)...

-- Andi
Quote

permeable means it will attract, it conducts mag flux. both shields ATTRACT => net force at shaft near zero.

steel steel steel. there are many types ones that have high permeabilityes and satturations (for "shieldings") all the way to the ones that are absolutely blind to magnets (not permeable) (like common plastic or common wood) for lever mechanism.
all of these steel types are cheap to get.

Mu metal is expensive and has very low satturation (high permeability though but unusable satturation)
no need to complicate further.

m668004

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Re: PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2005, 12:27:52 AM »
@wizkycho

Quote
permeable means it will attract, it conducts mag flux. both shields ATTRACT => net force at shaft near zero.

Yes, both shield attract, but at one shield the endmagnet oft the piston is closer to this shield than the other endmagnet to the other shield, so the net force at the shaft maybe is not zero. I mean, when the lower shield lift up it has to overcome the attraction both of the outer magnet and the endmagnet of the piston. At the same time the upper shield on the other side goes down and is only attracted by the outer magnet but not so much by the pistonmagnet, because its distance is greater then to the other shield. What do you think?

M.

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Re: PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #23 on: June 04, 2005, 12:27:52 AM »
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Offline ooandioo

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Re: PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #24 on: June 04, 2005, 12:41:00 AM »
@wizkycho

Quote
permeable means it will attract, it conducts mag flux. both shields ATTRACT => net force at shaft near zero.

Yes, both shield attract, but at one shield the endmagnet oft the piston is closer to this shield than the other endmagnet to the other shield, so the net force at the shaft maybe is not zero. I mean, when the lower shield lift up it has to overcome the attraction both of the outer magnet and the endmagnet of the piston. At the same time the upper shield on the other side goes down and is only attracted by the outer magnet but not so much by the pistonmagnet, because its distance is greater then to the other shield. What do you think?

M.

Thats what i mean. You will need a non magnetic shield...

-- Andi

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2005, 12:53:22 AM »
No, it will only work with an iron or steel shield.
But the question is, if the force attraction of the 2 magnets in
repellmode to the shield is stronger than the single magnet
wanting to pull the shield down at the other side...

Hmm, I unfortunately guess, that? the force is stronger to hold and keep the
shield at the repelling magnets side between these magnets there.

As the airgap is pretty big at the other end, where the single
magnet wants to attract the other shield, this force is probably smaller
and this way it will not work.

Otherwise if maybe 2 of the units would be synchronized and
phased maybe 90 degrees out of phase, maybe it will work then ???

Regards, Stefan.
« Last Edit: June 04, 2005, 03:50:49 PM by hartiberlin »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #25 on: June 04, 2005, 12:53:22 AM »
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Offline Light

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Re: PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #26 on: June 04, 2005, 03:41:54 AM »
" You did not say WHY "
It's obviously. The screen at approach of magnets becomes a magnet itself, but not as has wrongly described Pino (sorry). Polarization will take place - the near (closest to magnets) and far ends of the screen, but not lateral faces. From it the "screen" will sit down dead between poles (and even not in the middle of magnets) and it is necessary to apply energy to pull it out therefrom.
I do not remember a link, but there this scheme was discussed.

And "Kalinin"  motor does not work. The shielding material is necessary. One of participants of this project has got it, but he's doing his own project. From his description it is a thin plate from several layers of different metals (probably works on a principle of eddy-curent).

Offline Anatoliy

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I am "Kalinin"
« Reply #27 on: June 04, 2005, 10:51:27 PM »
My engine does not work. But experiences which I have lead{have carried out}, confirm his{its} serviceability.
More in detail: http://kalininaa.narod.ru
Excuse for literacy, but I write from Russia.
I add a photo of last updating of model

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #28 on: June 04, 2005, 11:40:18 PM »
Here is the animation photo of your machine, Anatoliy.

Looks good.
Did you try it ?
Does it really work ?

Regards, Stefan.

Offline ooandioo

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Re: PMM by wizkycho
« Reply #29 on: June 05, 2005, 12:27:15 AM »
I saw this scheme some times ago.
I think it could work if you delete most friction to the shield. Any ideas about this?

-- Andi

 

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