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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: ken_nyus on August 08, 2007, 04:12:35 PM

Title: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on August 08, 2007, 04:12:35 PM
Hi All,

I have just started to recently fall into the OU pit!

I ran across this patent:

Patent number: 6731035
Filing date: Mar 22, 2002
Issue date: May 4, 2004
Inventors: Chung-Nan Mu, Yu-Ta Tu

Apparatus for generating autogenic energy

Reading through the text for this very simple device, I think I understand how it creates an unbalance that results in motion.

This device seems simple enough to replicate, and I hope to try and replicate it.

My question to you folks is, why would this not work?

Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: Omega_0 on August 08, 2007, 04:30:22 PM
Can you please explain how it works?

The legal language in the patent ensures that no one understands it in just one reading :D
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: Gothic on August 08, 2007, 04:32:25 PM
url of pdf is helpful http://www.google.com/patents?id=nMIRAAAAEBAJ&dq=6731035
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: Iosh on August 08, 2007, 04:35:05 PM
If you could post the patent text it'd help lots at trying to understand how the device works! ;D
EDIT: Oh, thank you Gothic! You got it while I was complaining. :D
EDIT 2: *after looking at the PDF* Damn! Will anyone believe me if I say I've been thinking about this very same setup since a couple weeks ago? :D :D I gather the bearings have to be top quality for the "old steam train"-like transmission to work.
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on August 08, 2007, 04:46:38 PM
Thanks for posting the link Gothic, I will do so in the future.

I can't explain it in detail without refering to the drawings, and the patent text does a good job of explaining the mechanism.

I do think one diagram is labeled wrong, so don't get confused by this. I think the N/S polarity of magnet 51 (the sliding magnet) in figure 3 is backwards. In other figures it is correct.

This device seems to rely on two (or more) ideas to get around the sticky spot.

The first idea is using a flywheel to store the energy from the N-N push side of the cycle.

The second idea is a 10 degree offset of the position of the rotating magnet, creating a slight imbalance in favor of the N-N repulsion over the S-S repulsion.

It seems like you would have to input some energy to get started (spin the flywheel hard).
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: Thaelin on August 08, 2007, 04:50:44 PM
   Might well be a case of runner. I do feel tho that when you give it a bit of load, it will stop. And like a gasoline motor, make sure to balance the flywheel for the action of the "piston" action. Good luck mate.


thaelin
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on August 08, 2007, 04:58:48 PM
   Might well be a case of runner. I do feel tho that when you give it a bit of load, it will stop. And like a gasoline motor, make sure to balance the flywheel for the action of the "piston" action. Good luck mate.


thaelin


I not sure what you mean by runner?

Yes I have been thinking that the flywheel must be balanced in a way that includes all the connected parts, and that it must be massive enough to hold more energy than the S-S repulsion.

I too doubt that under load it would still work, but the patent says that through extensive testing they have shown that it will still work under a (unspecified) load.

Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on August 13, 2007, 07:59:46 PM
I think the flywheel is an important part of this device.

I have no practical experience using flywheels, so I was wondering what you folks here thought might be most appropriate.

Heavy fly wheel? and try for low rpm?
Light flywheel? and try for high rpm?

I was looking around at the model steam engine sites, and from that community it seems like heavy small (3" or so) bronze flywheels are available.

For a flywheel on the light side I was thinking of maybe just a disc made out of say 1/8-1/4" copper plate, maybe 6" in diameter?
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ryanjrx7 on August 14, 2007, 09:37:22 PM
Guess I should of read this before I posted my old/new idea.  This link should help: http://science.howstuffworks.com/steam1.htm  Flywheels need to be heavy-their mass is the only thing that makes them useful.
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on August 14, 2007, 10:20:48 PM
I assume there is a benefit to concentrating that mass at the rim?

Or would a solid disc be just as usefull?

Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on August 21, 2007, 02:27:22 PM
Well I have a steam engine flywheel, some brass rod and sheet, some bearings, some magnets, and even some lego parts all being shipped this week. I hope to get started trying to replicate this patent soon.

Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on August 23, 2007, 06:15:24 PM
Ok, I have a brass axle now, with two plastic bearings on it, the flywheel mounted on one side (might be too small, and it is certainly not balanced), a simple crank  and push rod on the other side. The bearings seem to work well.

I have a plan for mounting the rotating magnet on the axle, with a counterweight for balance, but no plan yet for how to mount the sliding magnet on some kind of sliding back and forth tray. Ideas would be appreciated!

I also have to mount the axle/bearings into some kind of holder.

I'm hoping to just glue most of the pieces together.

And those grade 40 magnets are pretty strong!

Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on August 24, 2007, 07:37:11 PM
I now have the rotating magnet attached in some form to the axle (super glue), and some counterweights. All pretty shaky and may fall apart, but I'll work on making that better.

It spins very easily, and I can at least play with the axle/rotor by holding the bearings. I need to mount this part soon.

So I am in the classic stage of being able to get the rotor to rotate, by using my hand to pulse what will be the sliding magnet. All meaningless motion I know, but it gives me a little idea of how this may behave.

I think it will want to rotate pretty fast, so the crank and pushrod mechanism will have to be smooth.

Still thinking about how to build the sliding magnet portion of the device. The patent shows an idealistic mechanism of just a rod and slot, but this will need much more support that that.

I have the next two weeks off from work, so I hope to be able to put a fair bit of time into this.
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: gyulasun on August 24, 2007, 08:00:42 PM
....
Still thinking about how to build the sliding magnet portion of the device. The patent shows an idealistic mechanism of just a rod and slot, but this will need much more support that that.
.....

Hi,

Maybe the ideal solution would be to use linear bearing, embedded it into the slot?  This way the linear bearing would give a second 'fixing' point for the axle (#43 in the patent drawings) beside the arm (#42).

Another solution is maybe using two parallel rods as the middle part of the axle made out from two Y shaped parts facing each other by the parallel prongs and you fix two small ball bearings in the middle (one bearing on one prong, another on the other) and the bearings would roll/touch the inside walls of the slot?  A bit involved I know...

Maybe other members here can come up with better suggestions.

Gyula

EDIT:  Just occured to me another suggestion, a home made linear bearing...
Fix a short cross arm onto the outside of arm #42 and place two ball bearings at the edges of the short cross, the bearings will roll on the outside surface of support member #221 in Fig.1 and fix another short cross arm with two other ball bearings at its edges, these bearings will roll on the inside surface of member #221.  Basically you sandwich the support member #221 with 2-2 ball bearings that will be able slide easily on the surface of the member.  Understandable?
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on August 24, 2007, 08:51:12 PM
Hi,

Maybe the ideal solution would be to use linear bearing, embedded it into the slot?  This way the linear bearing would give a second 'fixing' point for the axle (#43 in the patent drawings) beside the arm (#42).

I have been searching for linear bearings on the web, but have not found anything that looks usefull. I'm not sure i really see how to use most of the linear bearings I have seen. If anyone has links to good parts suppliers, they would be appreciated.

Quote
Another solution is maybe using two parallel rods as the middle part of the axle made out from two Y shaped parts facing each other by the parallel prongs and you fix two small ball bearings in the middle (one bearing on one prong, another on the other) and the bearings would roll/touch the inside walls of the slot?  A bit involved I know...


I think I can visualize this, but not sure.

Quote
EDIT:  Just occured to me another suggestion, a home made linear bearing...
Fix a short cross arm onto the outside of arm #42 and place two ball bearings at the edges of the short cross, the bearings will roll on the outside surface of support member #221 in Fig.1 and fix another short cross arm with two other ball bearings at its edges, these bearings will roll on the inside surface of member #221.  Basically you sandwich the support member #221 with 2-2 ball bearings that will be able slide easily on the surface of the member.  Understandable?

I think I can see this one now too. I like this idea because it restricts total movement in several directions. It kind of clamps #43 to the plate #221.

I am turning the whole device 90 degrees so that the sliding member will move parallel to the ground, and then I think I will support #43 from both sides (in the patent they only support it on one side, the side with the flywheel using #221).

Using your idea this would be 4 bearings on each side, but it could be very stable repeatable movement if the bearings hug the support members tightly.

Thanks for the help!



Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on August 24, 2007, 09:26:54 PM
Found a few places that sell linear slides, I think I understand how I could use them now, but they are expensive, starting around $100US!!!
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ryanjrx7 on August 28, 2007, 08:06:20 PM
Not to suggest taking apart your kitchen, but your drawers slide on a track in a linear fashion.  If you're using big magnets, consider getting the drawer sliders for a mechanic's tool box.  Those can handle a pretty good load.  An old TV cart would also usually have some form of sliding tray.  Good luck
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: hansvonlieven on August 29, 2007, 03:06:36 AM
G'day all,

Has anyone tried to build this??

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on August 29, 2007, 05:42:38 PM
Hey Hans,

I am trying to build this. Haven't done much in the last week or so, I hope to do more work next week.

I am intrigued by this design because it seems so simple, and from my reading of the patent, I understand how it should work.

I have been hoping someone with a more critical eye than mine would give some specific theory why it would not work, but in the mean time, I am moving slowly ahead with my crude build of this device.
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: NerzhDishual on August 29, 2007, 06:56:53 PM


@ken_nyus

IMHO, this device should work if properly built and 'tuned'.
You just need some luck to have it running. 
That's all the harm I wish you !

BTW: could you post some pictureS?

Best
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: hansvonlieven on August 29, 2007, 10:53:44 PM
G'day all,

I have my doubts as to this thing. It looks like another lawyer's scam to tie up technology. The word autogenic means 'self generating, to produce from within'. It is a word that is being used in psychology and the self help industry.

The word was obviously used to fool patent examiners as the word perpetual motion is not allowed and this means just about the same thing.

The use of a piston like arrangement to re-guage the magnet is by no means new or original. The rest just describes a flywheel. This thing will run for a while after the flywheel has been set into motion by some outside force as the energy stored in the flywheel runs down, though I suspect the flywheel would run longer if the magnets were removed.

Anyone who has ever played with magnets knows that if you separate two magnets that are stuck to each other the easiest way is to slide them apart sideways. The hardest way is to pull them apart in the opposite direction to the natural attraction. In this device the re-guaging of the magnetic forces is attempted in the most unfavourable way possible.

My feeling is the thing will not work

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on August 29, 2007, 11:49:52 PM
Hi Hans,

The principle of the device as I understand it is all based on repulsion. Half the cycle is N-N, the other half S-S repulsion.

One of the diagrams is mislabeled, and there also seem to be some mistakes in the text, but they don't talk about any attraction being used, only repulsion.
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: hansvonlieven on August 30, 2007, 01:01:40 AM
G'day Ken and all,

You still need to get around the "sticky point", in other words there is a need to re-guage.

I cannot see how you can do it with this arrangement. It would be nice if one could, I admit, but this way?

I have a massive file of permanent magnet motor patents, none of which work. Please, someone tell me why this one does.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on August 30, 2007, 03:01:34 AM
I'm not sure there is a classic sticky point in this design, it is more like a sticky-half.

Half of the cycle is working to push the flywheel (n-n repulsion), and the other half of the cycle is working against the flywheel (s-s repulsion).

But in the first half of the cycle the magnets are always a little closer together than in the corresponding points of the second half of the cycle, creating an imbalance of force in favor of the rotation, that's the theory anyway.

This excess force is stored in the flywheel, and used to get through the sticky-half.

If magnetic force is related to the square of the distance, a small difference in distance can mean a large difference in force?

Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on September 08, 2007, 08:51:16 PM
Ok, got a decent ball bearing linear slide for cheap on eBay, and I put the basic rig together. Worked out a push rod mechanism, with some heavy 1/4" rod ends I had. Overall sloppy and ugly, with lots of hot glue holding things together.

No luck on getting even a single rotation on it's own. The setup is heavy, especially the push rod mechanism. Also I am not sure how to go about balancing the mechanism in a practical way once all of the parts are connected together.

If anyone is interested I would like to try and go through some design criteria for this device, things that should be true for this to work.

Basic assumptions of the working principles of this device:

1. All forces are repulsion forces.
2. For one half of the cycle, N-N repulsion helps to push the flywheel. In the other half of the cycle S-S repulsion fights back against the flywheel.
3. The physical arrangement of the device causes the magnets to always be closer together for the N-N half of the cycle, compared to the corresponding points of the S-S half of the cycle.
3. Because of this difference in distance, the N-N half of the cycle should be producing more force than the S-S half of the cycle.
4. This "excess" force is stored in the flywheel, and used to push past the S-S half of the cycle, to start the cycle again.

Now what design criteria must be true for this to work? Here is what I think needs to be true:

1. The flywheel must be able to store more force than the total force required to cycle the device. I think the total force capacity(?) of the flywheel should be much larger than the forces provided by the magnet interaction. Here I think my flywheel is too small, a 2 1/4" brass flywheel for a small steam engine.

2. The difference in force between the two halves of the cycle should be maximized. In this device the way to do this is to make the stroke of the linear part longer. I have a slide that can move 1.5 inches.  Leaving a 1/4" on each end to avoid hitting the stops, that leaves about 1" of usable travel.

3. The difference in force between the two halves of the cycle must be enough to overcome the inherent friction/inertia of the device. My device so far is too heavy. I can adjust the magnets as close as possible to work in the range of greatest force, but then it seems like the flywheel cannot store it all.

My thoughts and progress so far.

Having fun working and thinking about this, hope to make some improvements in the future.



I am using N40 1 x 1 x 1/8" magnets.
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on September 08, 2007, 10:12:42 PM
Here is a video of this crude version:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JTsj7zisM4

Please ignore the gobs of hot glue, the crooked flywheel, the pennies and blue tac, etc...



Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: gyulasun on September 08, 2007, 10:40:46 PM
Hi Ken_nyus,

Very good!  All I can say is to increase significantly the mass of your flywheel.  I think that what you have to reach is a state when  -without any one of the magnets so that no interaction between them could occur-- you give a few pushes to the flywheel by hand to make it rotate, it should rotate for a few minutes at least and you must feel a good torque at the rotating shaft then which should be hard to slow down by a 'finger' break.  This 'good' torque is what will feel the S-S repel force as working against it.

Keep up good work.

Gyula
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on September 08, 2007, 11:29:42 PM
I think I would have to move up to bicycle size flywheels to get that kind of force. I was hoping to work in the small desktop stirling engine size range. I may have to switch to very small magnets to play at that scale.

I'm still going to fiddle with this one and see what I can learn.
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ryanjrx7 on September 09, 2007, 04:53:30 AM
Good job Ken!  Like Gyula said, more mass on that flywheel.  Try to get your hands on some lead weights, like fishing weights, or maybe some of those stick on weights from a local tire place used for balancing wheels. That way you can stick them uniformly on that flywheel. You've got a pretty good push from those magnets, your right about not storing enough of it.  That exact design may or may not work, but your going to learn a lot from it, I know I did from seeing it.  Thanks you for posting the video, and spinning the machine so we can see it from different angles. 
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on September 09, 2007, 09:48:51 AM
Made a few quick, minor changes. (Well OK I stepped on the device and broke it, and as the hot glue gun was warming up I realized I had a chance to change a few things)

Got rid of the heavy push rod and it's counterweight, and replaced it with a thin brass rod. Got rid of some more counterweights that were on the axle opposite the rotating magnet. Removing all this weight, alot of which was reciprocating, really freed up the movement.

I also added some more mass to the flywheel, in the form of coins and blutac.

I measured the stroke now and it is 1 1/16". I also made the crank a bit adjustable in the stroke length. The offset angle between the crank and the rotating magnet can be adjusted by setting it with the nut holding it on the axle.The distance between the reciprocating magnet and the rotating magnet can be adjusted also as it is just duct tape holding it down to the platform on the slide.

You can see the new version here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtExIyoHDFA

Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: gyulasun on September 09, 2007, 01:04:43 PM
Hi,

Great work! All I can say is to repeat: increase still the mass of your flywheel! How much?  At least 5 to 10 times as you have now. I mean mass: this can be a heavier/thicker wheel of similar diameter or a much larger diameter but not so thick wheel etc.  Try to remember children's small play cars (of kinda matchbox size) with built-in flywheel: the mass of this flywheel was much bigger than the wheel on which the toycar rolled.

You are surely getting closer.

Gyula
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on September 13, 2007, 10:08:19 PM
Not running (yet?), but I have been fooling around with the configuration, and playing with the interaction between the magnets, mostly without the push rod installed so I can get a feel for how the magnets interact.

I wish there was a way to see the fields and how they interact in real time. I can feel with my hands, but you can only feel so much.

The main thing I have learned so far, is that my #1 assumption is wrong.

I was assuming that the only forces involved were repulsion forces. The patent only talks about repulsion forces, and a nuetral spot, so I assumed that this is all that should come into play. But by testing I can tell that attraction forces certainly come into play, and in fact they may be the dominant forces.

My understanding of how this device works (at least my embodiment of it) has increased, but my confidence in getting it to work has decreased. My mental model now of what is happening as it cycles tells me it will not work.

Still going to play with it though and learn what I can.



Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: gyulasun on September 14, 2007, 12:16:32 PM
Hi,  But if you do not use the push rod the setup is not like the basic idea?  Perhaps the push rod is one way of keeping the distances correct with respect to attract forces.

May I turn your attention to this link:
http://freeenergynews.com/Directory/Inventors/Bearden/SymmetricalPermanentMagnetMotor/index.html

I do not mean you test his setup (his magnetic pole arrangement is different and getting the shape at the ends of the magnets is very difficult) but to think about using covering shield at one side of your magnets. As a shield any magnetizable thin piece of metal cut to size would do.

But FIRST  I think still to increase the mass of your flywheel i.e. make it much heavier than it is now!

Gyula
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on September 14, 2007, 03:02:04 PM
Hey Gyulasun,

I'm not trying to get it to work without the push rod, I'm just feeling how the magnets interact when they are at different angles and distances from each other. I want to feel the repulsion at the right time that should be driving this. I'm using what I feel and see to guide me in the right crank angle and the right interaction distance between the magnets

Thanks for the article. Instead of cutting the magnets and shielding I have also thought about trying to use Halbach arrays to make this unbalanced, but then I am going beyond the patent idea, and I don't have enough magnets to play with this.

I hesitate to go even heavier with the flywheel because then I feel that all I am seeing is a better and better flywheel effect. I feel that I have to see the basic driving force manifest itself first.

Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: gyulasun on September 14, 2007, 04:27:28 PM

I hesitate to go even heavier with the flywheel because then I feel that all I am seeing is a better and better flywheel effect. I feel that I have to see the basic driving force manifest itself first.


Hi,  I fully agree with your wish of experimenting and explore the basic driving force.  It should be the difference between the approch and leaving repel forces, right?  BUT you have just written: But by testing I can tell that attraction forces certainly come into play, and in fact they may be the dominant forces.   If so, can make use of this?
Do you think new basic assumptions are needed for another working principle?

Gyula
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on September 14, 2007, 05:06:36 PM
Hi,  I fully agree with your wish of experimenting and explore the basic driving force.  It should be the difference between the approch and leaving repel forces, right?

That was my understanding from just reading the patent, as that is all they talk about.  

Quote
BUT you have just written: But by testing I can tell that attraction forces certainly come into play, and in fact they may be the dominant forces.   If so, can make use of this?

Right now my plan is to stay focused on the repel forces as the driving force.

Quote
Do you think new basic assumptions are needed for another working principle?

I hope not, at least yet.
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: sm0ky2 on September 17, 2007, 06:29:00 AM
OK,. guys this idea is a good one. I actually created something similar to this years ago, but i never fathomed how to attach a "transmission" to it to make it move at the right time.

Notice the patent says One or more,. and At least One.


Heres the basic device i was playing with back in college::
Take a wheel with several same-facing magnets placed around its outer rim. Not just one.

Now attach a secondary magnet to a lever, so you can push it back and forth with your finger.
now when you put it next to the wheel so that when it moves forward the wheel wants to spin.
and when you pull it away (at the right time) it keeps spinning a few times form this one push.
once you get the timing right you can sit there and push., push, push ,push and it gets spinning
really really fast.

The problem i had was with the timing, as the wheel increased with speed almost exponentially (at least thats how it seemed to me at the time) you had to adjust the timing of your pushes to keep it going right. My solution for this manually operated version was to place it just far enough i could feel a slight tug when the sticky point passed then i knew when to "push". 

i wondered how to attach it to something that knew when each rotation.. this makes perfect sense.
a Flywheel, spinning at the same rate (or proportionally geared) with a notch or guide-rail to move the magnet away when the "sticky spot" is approaching, then the centrifugal force built up from the previous spin helps to "push" again at just the right time.

dont read too much into the technical writing, to be honest im suprised they issued him a patent without disguising is more than this. They're not supposed to allow patents on  this type of device LOL!! Good for him!

Multiple magnets on the wheel!!!  i may make one of these myself, ive learned a lot since college i could probably make one much better than the one i had before, which worked well enough to impress myself at the time.

as far as the "transmission", just have a notched wheel spinning with the magnetic wheel, and make the drive magnet move away from the sticky spot. its an arch because its a wheel, so there is almost no resistance to pulling the magnet away, the flywheel is to provide pushing force to drive it some more.

it works like an old pedal-operated sewing machine if that helps.
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ryanjrx7 on September 17, 2007, 06:44:35 PM
You know what I just thought?  Try putting some square piece of steel or magnetic material on the base under the flywheel axle.  I always picture lines of force "reaching"  If theres a piece of steel, it might keep the lines of force reaching down instead of up and repelling the magnet attached to the flywheel axle.  It may also slow dow the axle to-but you seem to be an ace with the hot glue gun, so it'd be a quick thing to try involving no modification to anything else.
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: gyulasun on September 17, 2007, 07:52:06 PM
Yes, ryanjrx7,  it is a good idea!   

Also, I would suggest changing one or both of the strong Neo magnets to  ceramic magnets  i.e. which are not so strong: this way you do not have to increase the mass of the flywheel.

Gyula
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on September 20, 2007, 03:43:24 PM
Finally sat down and figured out how to use FEMM, so I could get a visual sense of the forces involved, and hopefully to do simulations instead of building.

I have a basic question about the visualizations.

How can you see repulsion? What are the visual clues that show repulsion?

I think I can see attraction, when flux lines mark a path from one magnet to another, in other words the lines actually pass through both magnets.

But what does repulsion look like? Lines from each magnet that pass parallel to each other with vector forces in the same direction?
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: sm0ky2 on September 21, 2007, 12:36:26 AM
im not sure what you actually "see" with FEMM, but "repulsion" should be seen as a compression of the flux lines, where they lose symetry and bend inwards towards both magnets.
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on September 24, 2007, 05:29:15 AM
I worked through some more of FEMM, and I have put together a simulation that shows the rotating and sliding magnets interacting.

Anyone know an easy way to turn a bunch of BMP files into an animated GIF? or even better a movie file?
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: hansvonlieven on September 24, 2007, 09:16:25 AM
G'day Ken and all.

Write to me at hans@keelytech.com and I will send you a programme that will do it for you. You can take a series of bitmaps and turn them into an animated gif. A bit of learning but nothing special. Alternatively send me the bitmaps and I will do it for you.

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on September 25, 2007, 02:14:35 AM
Converted some bmps to gifs.

Here are some images from the simulation. I tried to match the geometry and proportions of the patent. (My build is slighty different)

The magnets in the model are Neo 40's

The sliding magnet is 1/8" x 1/2".
The rotating magnet is 1/8" x 1".

The stroke length of the sliding magnet is 2".

The rotating magnet is offset 3/16" from the center of rotation by the square attached to it's bottom, the center of the square is the center of rotation.

The rotating magnet is also offset 10 degrees from the invisible crank that links the rotating magnet to the sliding magnet. 10 degrees was suggested as a value by the patent. This you can see in the images below. In the first image below the sliding magnet is at it's lowest point, and the rotating magnet is 10 degrees off the 0 degree point immediately below the sliding magnet.

The view is side-on of the apparatus.

I am uploading (I hope) the views discussed in the patent.

Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on September 25, 2007, 09:39:57 PM
Anyone know how I would go about creating a torque graph from this simulation?

It would be great if I could create a tourque graph of the torque applied to the center of rotation as the magnet rotates.

If I could understand how to come to a solution of the torque for a given position, in a script I could gather this information as the script moves the members of the model through a full cycle.

Then I could decide if the device should theoretically work or not, for a given configuration.

Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: gyulasun on September 25, 2007, 11:59:42 PM
Hi.

I remember some FEMM simulations + torque calculations on this Forum from Stefan, Vidar or Jason, see this if it is useful for you:

http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,2186.0.html

Gyula
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on September 26, 2007, 02:13:51 AM
Thanks alot Gyula for the pointer!
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on September 26, 2007, 01:46:35 PM
Here is my simulation of the pant as an animation...

Updated this to a slightly better simulation.
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on October 01, 2007, 02:09:07 AM
updated the image above to a slightly better simulation.

Also added the simulation as a video to youtube:

http://youtube.com/watch?v=1UOTkdSY4kA

I also took my best guess at extracting torque information from the simulation. I most likely got this wrong as I have no experience in this area, but the simulation is reporting a net total positive torque for this configuration.

This is NOT the configuration I have built. I need a much better build to get the close distances used here.
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: gyulasun on October 01, 2007, 10:30:10 AM
Hi,

To get some help on torque calculations in FEMM, I suggest sending an e-mail to Jason (Jdo300@sbcglobal.net) you may have noticed him at the above reference I pointed at.  He is helpful and a member here too.  Another possibility is Stefan, the Admin. of this Forum, though he must have been busy recently because he rarely posts nowadays... ;)

Gyula
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on October 05, 2007, 05:17:42 AM
Thanks to some help here I have been able to run a number of simulations in FEMM.

If I am doing this right, here is a configuration that seems to give a net gain in torque over a full cycle.

Forget all the previous simulations, they would run better backwards.



Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on October 05, 2007, 05:31:30 PM
I also posted a video version of this information on youtube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kxnARiXUwVA

I hope I am interpreting all this right, I was losing hope and interest, but now after running many simulations I think I see the factors that help to make this work, and that create the conditions mentioned in the patent.

When I model very closely to my build, I also see why it would not work.

I have to rethink the whole build, to get the close spacings and strength required to take advantage of the power spot.

My main problem right now is coming up with a strong enough, low friction enough, and non-magnetic sliding bearing. There are full ceramic or low-magnetic linear bearings out there, but the companies I talked to only custom build them, and the prices start in the 1000's.
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: hansvonlieven on October 08, 2007, 12:31:51 AM
G'day Ken,

Have a look at this, hope this helps.

http://student.ccbcmd.edu/%7Enorman/pendulumtonoon.mpg

Hans von Lieven
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on October 08, 2007, 12:35:43 AM
here is the FEMM file and the LUA file if anyone wants to play with this:
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on October 08, 2007, 12:40:41 AM
G'day Ken,

Have a look at this, hope this helps.

http://student.ccbcmd.edu/%7Enorman/pendulumtonoon.mpg

Hans von Lieven

Hi Hans,

I took a look, I'm not sure what I should learn from that?

If it is about bearings, I think my rotary bearings are ok, and I have many choices there.

It is the sliding linear bearings that I have trouble finding or building.

Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on December 05, 2007, 08:34:53 PM
Hi Folks,

I did do another build, a little better than the last one, but the results are similar, no cycling.

I also recently had a conversation with a friend of mine who used to teach Physics, and the device interested him enough to think about it, and why it will not work.

Looking at the torque graph from the simulation, my thinking was that it should work. My reasoning was that the large pulse of torque in my favor should be enough to overcome the small pulse of torque working against me.

My friend eventually pointed out that we have to consider also the forces acting on the sliding magnet which is coupled to the rotating magnet. When you add this into the picture, his argument is that the first half of the large pulse, while the magnets are still coming closer together, is a net loss, and now I see this, and I also see how this will cancel out the net gain from the second half of the large pulse.

So the large pulse is a wash, and all I am left with is the small pulse of torque, and this is not in my favor, so the total cycle is a net loss.

That is how I see it right now.

I still may do another build though ;)

But first I will try and update the simulation to account for the forces acting on the sliding magnet, and try and graph this over the torque graph and see what I get.

.


Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: gyulasun on December 05, 2007, 11:24:30 PM
Hi,

If I remember well, Jason now is able to simulate not only in FEMM but in a true 3D simulator program too.  That would be the best I think in this setup to use, maybe it could reveal more pros or cons...
Thanks for returning to this topic.

Gyula
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: capthook on February 16, 2008, 09:32:29 PM
Ken ?

Very cool device you have assembled.  I ran across this thread after having happened on the Chung-Nan Mu patent while sifting through the ?310? classification of the Patent Office.  (google patents with the .pdf?s sure makes it easier!  www.google.com/patents )
Doing a google search on ?Chung-Nan Mu? presented 10 hits.  This thread being the only one, anywhere, that discussion of this patent is taking place.  Kudos Ken!  I?ve lurked here the last few months ? you?re topic has inspired me to join this forum and a desire to add to this discussion in particular.

What made you decide to implement the design in the horizontal rather than vertical orientation?  It would seem to me that gravity is a component utilized in favor of the device.  It?s what caught my eye, as I?ve been trying to incorporate gravity in one of my ?designs? to ?hammer? the rotor with repulsion.  In Fig. 6 ? it seems gravity and the weight of the upper magnet assembly assists in getting from point (e) to (f).  Also in your device ? as mentioned before ? the flywheel may be undersized?  The rotational energy must also contribute to (e)to(f).

Cool suggestions offered on a bearing setup for the vertical shaft.  However ? just 1 bearing slipped over the (front in this view) end of the upper shaft inside the track should suffice?  Or even be unnecessary? (but probably ideal) On bearings ? what are you using?  I?ve found huge differences in bearing quality/run times.  A top quality rollerblade bearing is perfect for these types of applications.  ABEC 9 rated bearing are a little expensive ($60 set of 8) but blow away a cheaper set. 
( http://www.inlinewarehouse.com/AggAccBearings.html )


 

Interesting to me the number of ?unused? patents in various fields that seem to be of value.  STUNNING the number of patents secured in this area of work, mechanical magnetic motors, that don?t work:
Patents for Unworkable Devices
United States Patents
?   May 24, 1932. H. L. Worthington 1,859,643 Magnetic Motor.
?   June 19, 1934. J. W. Poysa. 1,963,213 Magnetic Motor.
?   May 19, 1959. Norman L. Dean. 2,886,976 System for converting rotary motion into unidirectional motion.
?   July 13, 1965. E. Baumgartner. 3,194,008 Positive Buoyancy Prime Mover.
?   Dec 20, 1966. Dan K. McCoin. 3,292,365. Power conversion apparatus and method utilizing gravitational and buoyant forces.
?   Dec 7, 1971. E. Rutkove. 3,625,089. Gravity Wheel Apparatus.
?   Jan 27, 1976. David Diamond. 3,934,964. Gravity-Actuated Fluid Displacement Power Generator.
?   April 24, 1979. Howard R. Johnson. 4,151,431 Permanent Magnet Motor.
?   April 24, 1979. Howard R. Johnson. 4,151,432 Permanent Magnet Motor (Revision?)
?   January 22, 1980. Leslie R. Hinchman and Robert B. Hinchman. 4,184,409 Hydraulic Engine.
?   March, 2003. Thomas Bearden. 6,362,718. (A device that extracts "compressed energy" from the time domain in amount mc2. It draws energy from the longitudinal electromagnetic waves that fill the ocean of space-time".)
My interest in this device is the application of a mechanical magnetic motor, as the pulse-generating motors add so much more complexity and I believe that a working device is a mater of engineering rather than circuitry ? although the pulse devices may have a better chance of success utilizing back EMF.  Also ? it doesn?t use crazy magnet designs like the Johnson motor(s).
(Of course ? most everyone says these type of devices are impossible anyway.  Hmmm ? considering dark matter/energy makes up over 90/95% of the universe and we know NOTHING about it ? leaving what we DO know a percentage of the remaining 5% - I would say humans 200 years from now will laugh at MANY of our ?laws?.

You mention your ?hot-glue? replication.  However, I find the engineering quality of your design to be applauded.  Duct tape is my best friend as it makes it easy to make designs changes VERY easily LOL!

Again - kudos to you on your work on this project and look forward to your thoughts/updates on this project.  I may attempt to replicate the patent in the near future as well.

CH
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on February 17, 2008, 02:16:39 AM
Hey Capt,

Thanks for the hello, and I would look forward to seeing another attempt at replicating this device!

I may eventually get back to this one, right now I am playing with an OC MPMM replication.

I went with sideways just because I thought it would be easier to setup a good slide that way. I thought about the gravity effect but then I figured if the device was balanced there would not be any gravity effect.

Let me know if you do any work on this, I would be very interested to see it.
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 17, 2008, 10:01:53 AM
looking at that graph, it appears pretty symmetrical to me. avg. 0 ?

this is a fun little thing,  as the magnets come together, lets assume that when the sliding magnet is approaching the point of reversal, the rotating magnet is at 30-45 degrees before the parallel point.

You have back torque on the rotating shaft,  also the repulsion force decreases exponentially with distance.

so, whatever momentum you have built up by starting the device into motion would be gradually depleted as it spins around.

fascinating mechanism though. this could be an essential component of some more complex magnetic device one day.
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: ken_nyus on February 17, 2008, 03:00:03 PM
hey smoky,

I'm not sure how to properly sum that graph, but visually to me it seemed like a net gain.

The main problem with the graph is that it only shows the torque on the rotating magnet. It does not include the force on the sliding magnet, which is coupled by the push rod to the rotating magnet, so it only shows part of the picture.
Title: Re: Apparatus for generating autogenic energy?
Post by: sm0ky2 on February 17, 2008, 05:22:24 PM
what im looking at is the parts of the graph that are above and below the line. as they cancel each other out.
with the exception of the larg spike at the begining, its perfectly symmetrical. same under as over.
now with that large spike, you have half going up, half going down, so that too cancels each other out.

if you look at this set-up under a gauss-viewer, you can see the flux-density as they aproach one another.
areas of denser flux lines equate to an opposing force.

it appears that the outward force on the sliding magnet (in bottom position) is greater than the 'reverse' force on the rotating magnet - this is only the case for the first few mm, as it steeply drops off as the sliding magnet leaves bottom position, and the reversed force becomes dominant.

the lines in the gauss-viewer: i call Fluxii - these lines are equivalent to some # of actual lines of flux.
i dont know exactly how many lines of flux are required to make 1 line on my gauss viewer, but its proportional, so we can assume that each of the Fluxii are equivalent.

now, counting these lines, during the magnetic interaction - we have 8 and 12 ( 12 being the sliding magnet in bottom position). as the sliding magnet moves away and the two come closer to the parallel, the proportion is more 8:8
then 8:4, 8:2, and away from the repulsion zone. after they pass one another, the sliding magnet is too far away to affect the flux lines from the rotating magnet. overall we have a 4:3 ratio of flux-force working against us. Whatever ammount of rotation the system has going into the magnetic interaction phase- is magnetically decreased by approx. 1/4 (in my setup),  resulting in the eventual decay of the rotation.